142 Combustible Drifter (Bill Hicks)

Transcript of this episode

Jacob: [00:00:00] Welcome to Famous and Gravy, biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our [00:00:05] opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. [00:00:10] Now here's the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died [00:00:15] in 1994, age 32. He kept a fatal diagnosis [00:00:20] secret from almost everyone around him, and continued working right up until a few months [00:00:25] before he died.

Friend: 1994. All right, I was 8. [00:00:30] No, I was 12. No, I was 10. This is going great [00:00:35] already. So far.

Michael: Uh- Can't even figure out my own age. Yeah, that's okay

Friend: [00:00:40] Uh, 32 years old. Was it Mitch Hedberg?

Michael: Not Mitch Hedberg. Great [00:00:45] guess, not Mitch Hedberg, but you're in the ballpark. All right. By the time he died, he had [00:00:50] a far bigger following in the UK than in his home country of America.

Friend: [00:00:55] Okay. Uh, man, I can't stop thinking about Chadwick [00:01:00] Boseman and Norm Macdonald, but they're both too recent.

Michael: Good guesses. Not Chadwick Boseman, and [00:01:05] we have done a very good episode on Norm Macdonald. We'll check him out. Okay. His final [00:01:10] televised set was cut from the Late Night show with David Letterman in October of [00:01:15] 1993.

Friend: I got nothing, man. Yeah.

Jacob: Okay, it was a set, so he's

Michael: [00:01:20] gotta be either a musician or a stand-up comedian. I'm going [00:01:25] musician. He was frequently compared to Lenny Bruce during his career, and once summed [00:01:30] up his own act as, quote, "Noam Chomsky with dick jokes," end [00:01:35] quote.

Friend: I'm trying to think who, who is like Lenny Bruce.

I mean, it's obviously not George Carlin.

Noam [00:01:40] Chomsky with dick jokes. Okay, so definitely stand-up comedian. It's not Mitch Hedberg. [00:01:45] Not Mitch

Michael: Hedberg. 'Cause- Great guess, not Mitch Hedberg ... uh- He actually, and [00:01:50] this is a first for Famous and Gravy, does not have a New York Times obituary. [00:01:55]

Friend: Oh. Man, you gave me an obscure one.

Michael: Bill [00:02:00] Hicks?

Friend: Ooh, I have a guess of Bill Hicks from my friend Matt Hurst.

Michael: Today's [00:02:05] dead celebrity is Bill Hicks.

Archival: Yeah.

Michael: Bill

Friend: Hicks,

Michael: my

Friend: man.

Archival: All [00:02:10] right. Yes.

Michael: Oh my God [00:02:15]

Friend: I try to talk to the audience the same way I talk to my friends, to take away the [00:02:20] artifice of show business and actually have a feeling of a conversation going on.[00:02:25]

If some of the audience gets offended, then they're saying to me, "I don't wanna be your friend," [00:02:30] and that's fine. What am I supposed to do when half the people are going, "That was great," and the other half are [00:02:35] going, "You're evil"? Is it my job to go into their lives and try [00:02:40] and, and try and please them? I actually had a woman say, "Why can't you do thing, do things that appeal to everyone?"[00:02:45]

That's impossible. And I also got, uh, you know, someone [00:02:50] made a comment at the club going, "We don't come to comedy to think." [00:02:55] Gee, where do you go to think? I'll meet you there. We don't have, we don't have to do this here. [00:03:00]

Archival: But people want to be entertained, don't they? Well, when- I mean, they wanna laugh ... when

Friend: did thinking not become entertaining?[00:03:05]

Archival: They don't wanna

Friend: think. They don't wanna think. You, they don't wanna think. No, they wanna laugh What am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to go out and tickle them individually? We [00:03:10] have to express an idea here[00:03:15]

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael [00:03:20] Osborne.

Jacob: And my name is Jacob Weiss.

Michael: And on this show, we choose a famous figure who died, [00:03:25] and we take a totally different approach to their biography what didn't we know [00:03:30] what could we not see clearly, and what does a celebrity's life story show us about ourselves [00:03:35] today Bill Hicks died nineteen ninety-four age thirty two [00:03:40] Jacob Weiss Thank you for joining me on this- Yeah

[00:03:45] episode of Famous Gravy. Of

Jacob: course. Uh-

Michael: Um, all right, so we're breaking a lot of rules today. [00:03:50] Um, normally it's a 20th, 21st century death. Um, Bill [00:03:55] Hicks, if he were alive today, would be in his 60s, so I feel like we can go there a little [00:04:00] bit. Um, and there's more rules we'll, we break as we go along. I should say, actually, just for the [00:04:05] audience, Jacob normally is the editor and producer of this show, has stepped behind the mic, [00:04:10] uh, for this, their second time.

First time with David Lynch.

Jacob: Yeah, I said that, you know, if you could find [00:04:15] someone as important as David Lynch- Yeah ... and of course that's Bill Hicks.

Michael: Well, [00:04:20] okay, so here's the question I have for you. When did you first learn about [00:04:25] Bill Hicks?

Jacob: That's a good question. I've been thinking about this, 'cause I can't remember, like, a [00:04:30] moment.

Hm. But the thing that I do remember, actually, was his [00:04:35] jokes just being around, uh, like... A- And I, okay, [00:04:40] I was born in 1990, he died in '94, so obviously this is like the second wave of his [00:04:45] popularity. Um, but I just remember people saying his jokes normally, [00:04:50] like in elementary school, middle school, high school, and like never being attributed to him.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: [00:04:55] It was this weird sense that then when I finally listened to his specials, being like, [00:05:00] "Oh, he wrote that joke?" Like, like, uh, okay, perfect example, 'cause I was trying [00:05:05] to think of his, uh, some examples. Um, like, uh, what's, what's [00:05:10] wrong? Why you frowning?

Friend: Well, it takes more energy to frown than it does to smile.

Yeah, you [00:05:15] know, it takes more energy to point that out than it does to leave me alone.

Michael: [00:05:20] So it was almost like a band that was on the radio who- who- Yeah ... you'd heard lots of their [00:05:25] songs. Then somebody says, "Oh, that's Creedence Clearwater," or, "That's The Who." Yeah. "That's all

Jacob: the same band." Exactly. So he, he [00:05:30] was, the more that I investigated, I mean, and I wrote some down too, like, uh, just the quip of, [00:05:35] uh, you know, "I, I'm actually against the troops, but I'm for the war."

Yeah. You know? Where it's like, [00:05:40] uh, "You're not a human until you're in my phone book." Yeah. You know? Like, and, and yeah, these are almost like [00:05:45] one-liners that, of course that no one would attribute them, like, to [00:05:50] him, 'cause they just, like, float around in the ether 'cause they're quippy. Oh. You know what I mean?

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And that was [00:05:55] definitely, like, my experience with him.

Michael: So that when you finally listen to [00:06:00] sets, you put it all together- Exactly ... "I've been hearing these things all my life." Yes. And- And did, did that happen [00:06:05] before the, what was it, the 2009 documentary?

Jacob: Yes. So then I remembered, though, the [00:06:10] clip that I found on YouTube that really made me like, "I gotta listen to this guy fully," [00:06:15] and it was the play from your heart clip.

Michael: Yeah, right.

Friend: Oh, come on, Bill. They're the [00:06:20] new kids. Don't pick on them. They're so good. They're so clean cut, and they're such a good image for the [00:06:25] children. that. When did mediocrity and banality become a good [00:06:30] image for your children? I want my children to listen to people who rocked. [00:06:35] I don't care if they died in puddles of their own vomit.

Archival: I

Friend: want [00:06:40] someone who plays from his heart. Oh, you're so clean cut. You ho, [00:06:45] ho, ho. A good clean country. Ho, [00:06:50] ho, ho. Play from

Archival: your heart[00:06:55] [00:07:00]

Friend: I am available for children's parties, by the way[00:07:05]

Michael: One of my favorite, one of my favorite [00:07:10] bail myself out of that- Like, he just shocks the audience. Everybody's standing there. Um-

Jacob: Well, a- [00:07:15] and I think, like, uh, that's, and that's a really good indic- indication of his comedy style, of [00:07:20] like digging himself into a hole, and then still having the, like, lifeboat, [00:07:25] the life jacket to be like, "I get that I'm intense right now."

Michael: Yeah. "

Jacob: I know [00:07:30] that, and I'm still gonna, like, tell a joke at the end," you know what I mean?

Michael: I heard him in an interview, it might've [00:07:35] been the one with Howard Stern, talk about, like, fill the air and deflate it.

Jacob: Yeah. Yeah,

Michael: yeah, yeah. [00:07:40] Exactly. Which is, like, a good way of describing- Totally ... what he does. Yeah. Um, you mind if I share a little bit of my-

Jacob: Yes, [00:07:45] I'm cur- I'm so curious since you're a little bit of a different generation.

Michael: Yeah. Let me [00:07:50] start by saying of the 130, 140 episodes we've done on this [00:07:55] show, this is as close to grief [00:08:00] and a parasocial bond as any of them, kind of by a country [00:08:05] mile.

Jacob: Yeah,

Michael: yeah. Um, so I was born in '78. [00:08:10] I was in high school when he died in 1994. Yeah. And if I knew [00:08:15] his name, I didn't know it well. Yeah. My best friend in high school, i- in...

So I [00:08:20] graduated in '96. In '95 or '96, he started saying, "Have you ever listened to any [00:08:25] Bill Hicks?" And I really hadn't at that point. Mm-hmm. Um, I also went to [00:08:30] school in Montana, and I used to drive from Texas to Montana. Whoa. 28-hour car ride. Whoa. And, [00:08:35] um, I'm, uh, unless I had a bunch of speed, I didn't do it all at once.

D- [00:08:40] did do it all at once a couple times. Anyway, um- ... I would get tired of music, and I'd started playing [00:08:45] comedy CDs. Mm-hmm. And it was, my memory is that it was on those drives that I discovered Bill Hicks. [00:08:50] And- I don't think I can [00:08:55] overstate just how important a figure he was to me. Mm-hmm. And then [00:09:00] I started kind of becoming a bit of a acolyte.

Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:05] Um, I was trying to introduce him to as many people as possible. Yeah. And if you [00:09:10] talk to any of my friends from that period in my life, they, they knew that I was the gateway [00:09:15] drug to Bill Hicks.

Friend: You're a great crowd, and before I go, even though this is a world [00:09:20] where good men are murdered, men who try and help are murdered and cut down in their prime of their youth, and hacks and [00:09:25] mediocres and fascists run everything else, I'm gonna share with you a vision that I [00:09:30] had 'cause I love you.

And you feel it. [00:09:35] You know all that money we spend on nuclear weapons and defense every year, trillions of dollars, [00:09:40] correct? Instead, instead, just play with this. [00:09:45] If we spent that money feeding and clothing the poor of the [00:09:50] world, and it would pay for it many times over, not one human being [00:09:55] excluded, we could, as one race, explore outer space [00:10:00] together in peace forever.

Michael: Let me fast-forward [00:10:05] to getting ready for this episode. Yeah. 'Cause I wanna share something that- Sure ... um, [00:10:10] I'm still trying to make sense of.

Jacob: Okay.

Michael: So I, I've listened to his albums [00:10:15] countless times. Yeah. I have watched documentaries and interviews, um, [00:10:20] kind of in idle time. I was watching the American S- what's it called?

The American, [00:10:25] uh- It's just

Jacob: called American ...

Michael: America. The Bill Hicks Story. Yeah, American: The Bill Hicks Story, which I'd seen.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: [00:10:30] Um, and I get to the part where he discovers, he [00:10:35] learns he's got pancreatic cancer.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: And I lost it. I busted out [00:10:40] crying. Oh. Like sobbing like a baby, dude.

Archival: He came [00:10:45] here and, uh, he was sitting out on the deck.

And in years before, [00:10:50] when he'd go out there and sit on the deck, you know, he kind of wanted to be alone. So [00:10:55] I opened the door and I said, "Bill, do you want to be alone?" And he said, "Who wants to be [00:11:00] alone?" I said, "I'll be right there."

Michael: I found myself [00:11:05] in uncontrolled sobs. Yeah. I found myself, like, [00:11:10] floored. A- and which is weird.

The man- Yeah ... died, you know, 32 years ago, right? Yeah. [00:11:15] I, I didn't realize I was carrying around grief, and I've been trying to [00:11:20] make sense of why. Yeah. Um, I, I still haven't [00:11:25] accepted the fact that he died-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: in some weird way. There was- Yeah ... there was... When I [00:11:30] discovered he was dead back in the '90s and started trying to tell every...

I mean, I was looking for every [00:11:35] set I could find. I was trying to persuade everybody in the world that this is the most important- [00:11:40] Yeah. ... human of a generation. And, and you have to listen because- Yeah ... he's [00:11:45] hilarious, he's persuasive- Yeah ... he's brilliant- Yeah ... he's Texan, uh you know? Yeah, yeah. No,

Jacob: truly. Like,

Michael: there [00:11:50] were all these, um- Checks all the boxes, yeah

ways in which I, I was, like, o- obsessed, obsessed, [00:11:55] and continue to be. And so more than anybody, I think people felt this way [00:12:00] about Anthony Bourdain.

Jacob: Yes.

Michael: I think people, um... I was thinking older people probably felt this [00:12:05] way about John Lennon.

Jacob: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Michael: That, you know- Oh,

Jacob: big time. Big

Michael: time ... like, he was like, just, like, ripped from [00:12:10] us, you know, at a moment.

And, uh, for me, it's, it's almost, [00:12:15] um, it's al- I was thinking about it, it's almost like a, a, a novel that you're really into, [00:12:20] and it's like a 900-page book. And out of nowhere, the main character [00:12:25] dies on page 150, and you're like- ... "What are you doing? I just, I was so into this book." [00:12:30] Yeah. And, and I, I don't know if I c- I don't know if I can go on now.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: You know?

Jacob: No, truly. Yeah, yeah.

Friend: You've [00:12:35] been great. I hope you enjoy it. Thanks a lot. Thanks for coming to my final show. [00:12:40]

Michael: It's still surprising to me how many people don't know who he is

Jacob: [00:12:45] I think, though, no matter what his influence, like I was saying, is there, it's [00:12:50] kinda like, um, g- speaking of mushrooms, which we will talk about- Yeah, yeah,

Michael: we're gonna get there

Jacob: [00:12:55] the, what do they call it, the like, the, there's that like mycelium or whatever the- Yeah, mycelium.

Michael: Mycelium ...

Jacob: it's like, it's, it's like [00:13:00] underneath everything. Yeah. And so, like, even if they don't know that there's like a [00:13:05] foundation, it, he's kinda like that thin layer that's just kind of like over all of current American [00:13:10] culture and, and the comedy scene and everything.

Yeah. So I think that, you know, even if [00:13:15] people don't know his name, they know about him.

Michael: I guess when I introduce him... 'Cause I think as time's gone on, it's been harder and [00:13:20] harder to introduce people to him.

Jacob: Well, last little note about that that's funny, [00:13:25] um, it's talking about ro- He's a very good road trip artist- Yeah

I feel like. Just putting him on in the [00:13:30] car. And so one time me and my, uh, now wife, then girlfriend, were [00:13:35] like going on a road trip. I don't know how, maybe we were going to West Texas or something, and I had my iPod [00:13:40] that had a bunch... It had music, but it also had a bunch of the comedy albums. Yeah, yeah.

She's like, "Who's Bill Hicks?" And there was [00:13:45] part of me that was like, "Oh, I love Bill Hicks," and part of me that's like, "Oh, no, I'm gonna like freak her out." Yeah. And like, [00:13:50] do not put on the wrong album. Do not put on the wrong album.

Michael: This is [00:13:55] gonna be a test.

Jacob: Yeah, yeah. And I, and I was like, and I was like, "Yeah, he's, he's," you know, like doing the, "He's fine.

You know, maybe, [00:14:00] maybe we listen to something else, you know?" Yeah. And she's like, "Oh, I'm curious. We'll see." And I was just like, "Okay." I was just like holding [00:14:05] on, like, "I don't remember what's on here." Um, but she, she chuckled enough [00:14:10] and was not like put off. But I probably put on like one of his more tame ones, like- Yeah

Relentless or [00:14:15] Dangerous. One that where he was still trying to be like a, like a-

Michael: But even then ...

Jacob: I know, but, uh, there was a- Yeah ... there was a [00:14:20] po- moment where he was trying to get on network TV. Yes. He was trying to be like both edgy and [00:14:25] mainstream. Sure. And it was like one of those where I was like, "Phew," you know?

Michael: We got through it without-

Jacob: Not one of the bootlegs where [00:14:30] he's telling people to kill themselves. And like- Right, right,

Michael: right, right, right ...

Jacob: why is this funny? I- Yeah ... I don't- Bill's a comedian 'cause I'm a drunk . That gives me

Michael: carte blanche. I

Jacob: got a and I'm drunk. I can do anything I want. I don't have a . I can yell at performers 'cause I'm [00:14:35] a

Archival: idiot.[00:14:40] [00:14:45]

Michael: When, uh, [00:14:50] Allison, my girlfriend at the time, now wife, um, when I played Bill Hicks for her, it [00:14:55] was a test in our relationship. I, I'd forgotten that until you brought it up. And that she [00:15:00] laughed, um, probably was the moment I fell in love. [00:15:05] All right, um, I think let's just get into it. Yeah. I'm with you. Category one, grading the first line of their [00:15:10] obituary.

And there is no New York Times obituary for Bill Hicks I,

Jacob: [00:15:15] I believe it, though. Again,

Michael: I- Yeah, this is a first on the show. Yeah. This is a first of... And it, no, no, it makes sense.

Jacob: [00:15:20] Yes.

Michael: It makes sense.

Jacob: Yes, but it kind of is a bum start to this episode. [00:15:25]

Michael: In a way, although, I mean, that was, that was my initial reaction when I discovered there was no- Yeah

[00:15:30] no New York Times obit. Mm. My second reaction was to email Sam Roberts, because we [00:15:35] just had an, a New York Times- ... obit writer on the show, and- They can

Jacob: correct, they can correct the record. Uh, that- It's, it's not [00:15:40] too late Exactly. It's not too late, New York Times.

Michael: And, and I should say, we are going to launch a [00:15:45] campaign-

to try to get a New York Times obituary for Bill Hicks when this episode- Yeah ... comes out. [00:15:50] He'll,

Jacob: yeah.

Michael: So listener be ready, we need your help.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: In discovering this, though, I was, you [00:15:55] know, immediately reminded, oh, his fame is almost totally [00:16:00] posthumous.

Jacob: Oh, yeah. Definitely. I

Michael: mean, es- especially for America, if it exists at all.

Jacob: Well, and [00:16:05] yeah, and we talked about this, trying to pull some things that were wr- written at the time. The Guardian [00:16:10] wrote an obituary for him, and- The Independent also, UK, yeah ... The Independent, which again, like, uh, [00:16:15] more famous in the UK at the time than in America. That's a big part of his story. I don't know, do you wanna [00:16:20] read a little bit of the-

Michael: Yeah, let me go ahead and, uh-

Jacob: I've got it.

Michael: Okay. I'll look. Yeah, you go [00:16:25] ahead and read it. Since it-

Jacob: Why not? We're breaking form. Who cares? We're breaking all kinds of form. You read it. Who cares? Um, all, there's so [00:16:30] much that it, this is not the New York Times format, so it, it goes off [00:16:35] the rails. I, I won't read all of it, but, "Bill Hicks, one of the most daring American stand-up [00:16:40] comedians of his generation, liked to ask for the non-smokers in the audience to identify [00:16:45] themselves, then puff away at them while inspecting his cigarette pack.

Uh, "What's cool is [00:16:50] that every pack has a surgeon general's warning. Isn't that great? Mine says, 'Warning: smoking may [00:16:55] cause fetal injury or premature birth.' Found my brand." Like, that's, why [00:17:00] is this an obituary? This is, like, crazy, like, just going right into his stand-up routine. Yeah. [00:17:05] Um, and then they jump back into it.

"Last October, Hicks became the first performer since Elvis Presley to [00:17:10] be banned from CBS's Ed Sullivan Theater, where The David Letterman Show is in residence, [00:17:15] and where Hicks had made his 11th appearance. In an outraged 32-page letter Hicks [00:17:20] wrote to me," he quoted Noam Chomsky and then they just keep going.

So it's really rambly, you know? Yeah,

Michael: yeah.

Jacob: But I, the [00:17:25] important thing- They highlight that he, uh, gets mad, he's a smoker, and he [00:17:30] was banned from CBS. And I think- I

Michael: think it's not just mad, it's spite.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: This is the thing I really like [00:17:35] about his smoking bits. Yeah. He says, "I smoke for one reason. That is spite."

Yeah. "I hate you non-smokers," with my little [00:17:40] black heart.

Jacob: Yes. Um,

Michael: I, I-

Jacob: I'd s- I'd quit smoking if I didn't think I'd become one of you ...

Michael: exactly. [00:17:45] Exactly. Uh, that, that he is, like, not smoking in front of them, he's smoking at them.

Jacob: [00:17:50] Yeah, yeah,

Michael: yeah. And I, I, I do like that they pulled that bit, even though I think- Fair

some of his smoking jokes [00:17:55] get tired.

Jacob: Yeah, but again, it's, it's a weird sense of like, "Oh, here's this guy. [00:18:00] Let's just, like, quote his standup. Okay, and then there's something else about him." And then-

Michael: Yeah ...

Jacob: but I think, like, at the time you'd be [00:18:05] hard-pressed for if someone was reading, like, "Who's Bill Hicks?" And so they're kind of, [00:18:10] I don't know, introducing him a little bit in this, more than you might think that they would in a New York Times obit.

Michael: [00:18:15] When I read the... So there's a biography, uh, by a woman named Cynthia True, and [00:18:20] which is really great. I highly recommend it. When I read it, um, one [00:18:25] thing that she does a very good job of capturing is how on the [00:18:30] cusp he was- Yeah ... of breakout success even here- Yeah ... at the time of [00:18:35] his death.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Um, like he, you know, you said it, 11th appearance [00:18:40] on Letterman.

Yeah. This one gets cut. I'm sure we'll talk about it more- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... as we go through. Um, but the, the [00:18:45] comics knew who he was. The major news outlets were interested. Um, [00:18:50] I think Entertainment Weekly was interested in doing stuff. Yeah. He, there was a profile in The New Yorker. He's, [00:18:55] he's there, right?

He's right there about to-

Jacob: And it, yeah ...

Michael: be a household name.

Jacob: [00:19:00] And what I do think is interesting about that is the first performer since Elvis Presley. So [00:19:05] here we go. In one sentence, he is now in the realm of Elvis Presley. Yeah. [00:19:10] You know what I mean? So it's, like, it kind of hints at his future, you know, [00:19:15] posthumous fame, but-

Michael: It's hard to know.

So you and I talked before the recording of, like, how [00:19:20] would we write that obit if we're gonna lobby The New York Times to do it.

Jacob: I actually... Okay, that's a good segue [00:19:25] to, I found not an obituary, but Pitchfork Media had a review of one [00:19:30] of his sort of, like, box sets that came out after. And I highlighted some parts because I [00:19:35] think they actually did a phenomenal job to capture him.

I know they had the hindsight of, like, [00:19:40] 10, 15 years, but I wanted to read some of this, 'cause I think it's, it's spot on.

Michael: Okay. "[00:19:45]

Jacob: Bill Hicks is our planet's most oft-revered, imitated, [00:19:50] plagiarized, and anonymous comedic talent." That's pretty damn good. That's a, [00:19:55] that's- Yeah ... you could almost stop there. Yeah. You know?

Like- Yeah,

Michael: yeah, yeah ... "

Jacob: When his life was tragically snatched away [00:20:00] by pancreatic cancer at the age of 32, Hicks hovered precariously on the [00:20:05] precipice of superstardom."

Michael: To my point, yeah.

Jacob: And then the last one, "With a career built [00:20:10] upon hostility, angst, scathing social comedy, and above all compassion, [00:20:15] Hicks' abrupt departure virtually sealed his fate as a contemporary [00:20:20] cultural enigma."

Michael: Wow

Jacob: Right? So you know what I mean?

Michael: Yeah, no, 10 out [00:20:25] of 10.

Jacob: Yeah. So that's, I, if you could condense that a little bit, but I think that's the [00:20:30] exact right tone, a lot of good words, and just shrink it a little bit and you got it, [00:20:35] you know?

Michael: I mean, there are moments where he feels, uh, uh, Shock Jock-ish, [00:20:40] right? Where he is, uh, yelling- Yeah

where he's yelling obscenities, where [00:20:45] he's scary, he's rageful. And it, it's incredible how funny he can be in that [00:20:50] moment, but the point is not necessarily the rage. The- Right ... the real, you know, love of [00:20:55] him- Yeah ... for me, and I think anybody else who's had that experience, is really his [00:21:00] commentary on the world.

Yeah. Political, social. Yeah. Uh, his ability to be incisive, [00:21:05] to point out hy- hypocrisies, and to make, and, and to use humor as a mechanism for, like, [00:21:10] laying things bare- Yeah ... in a way, you know, only the great comics can do.

Jacob: Yeah. [00:21:15]

Michael: So I would want that in there as the thing I want people to know him for. What we [00:21:20] actually knew him for-

Jacob: Yeah

Michael: I mean, is nothing. Yeah. Because we sa- we didn't know who he was. True.

Friend: True. You know? [00:21:25] But I, it occurred to me finally that actually the world is very screwed up, and people need comedians [00:21:30] to set it right, you know? It's kinda like I heard a good, uh, description of humor, [00:21:35] it reframes reality in a positive light.

So I think comics are really kinda [00:21:40] doorways to a, a n- a different understanding of a very, very mixed up and very depressing world. [00:21:45]

Archival: Go

Friend: back to bed, America. Your government is in control again. Here, [00:21:50] here's American Gladiators. Watch this. Shut up. Go back to [00:21:55] bed, America, and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom.

Here you go, America. [00:22:00] You are free to do as we tell you. You are free to do as we tell you. [00:22:05]

Jacob: Like, he's always feels like he's in the future, but then, like, you realize you, how young [00:22:10] he was and how in the past he is. Like, 30 years ago- Yeah ... he was saying all this stuff, and it [00:22:15] just, it almost makes him more of a mythical, legendary figure to the point where I'm like, "Was he even [00:22:20] alive?"

Like ...

Michael: Yeah, right. Uh, well, but, oh, God. I mean, you said something in [00:22:25] there that I wanna respond to, which is I feel, like, challenged by him. [00:22:30] Yeah. I feel like, um, like, this is a man with so much, [00:22:35] you know, integrity that he's a, he's a standard to measure up [00:22:40] to. Sure. And I think there's a part of me that... I'm- I'm not gonna be a comic.

That ship sailed a long [00:22:45] time ago. But in some ways there's a part of me that is wanting to measure my, um, s- [00:22:50] worth up against his story, you know? And-

Jacob: Totally ...

Michael: I- I- I think that's [00:22:55] okay. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but- We'll find out ... you know, I can't say that- Sure ... about almost any other celebrity out [00:23:00] there.

Jacob: Sure, yeah.

Michael: Um, let's get into five things.

Jacob: Yeah, yeah. So Pi- good job, [00:23:05] Pitchfork. Uh, New York Times, ball's in your court. Um, top it.

Michael: [00:23:10] Yeah. We- and we're coming after you. Like, we're, we're not gonna let this campaign go. All right. Let's roll into [00:23:15] it, five things I love about you. So here, Jacob and I will, uh, develop a list that offer five [00:23:20] things that, uh, give us a different angle on who this person was and how they lived.[00:23:25]

I will let you lead, but know that I have, um- Oh, yeah ... 25 things. You- [00:23:30]

Jacob: No, you can lead. Oh, let's go. No, you can lead.

Michael: Uh, well, God.

Jacob: I think we're, I- I think we're gonna have a [00:23:35] crossover probably on a lot of these.

Michael: Well, okay, if I were to say prophetic, would you be able [00:23:40] to help develop that? I think that- Yeah ... one thing about Bill Hicks is that [00:23:45] not all of his jokes hold up.

There's definitely some- ... you know, homophobia in places. [00:23:50] There's-

Jacob: A lot of

Michael: misogyny ... a lot of misogyny, yes, in- in a way that, y- we by [00:23:55] today's standards would have a hard time stomaching. Sure. But I don't think that they're actually that hard to place in the [00:24:00] context. Oh,

Jacob: no, no.

Michael: Um-

Jacob: They're pretty tame for what comics were doing back [00:24:05] then in- in the, in the meanness, like, true meanness of it.

Like, he's, he's a humanit- a humanist at [00:24:10] the end of the day.

Michael: I loved that about the Pitchfork thing, compassion. Yeah, yes. I [00:24:15] thought that was, um- Yeah ... that is extraordinarily true.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Uh, so you know, [00:24:20] I mean, he's got jokes out there about Reagan and Bush that apply [00:24:25] to a lot of, uh- Yeah,

Jacob: Trump and,

Michael: uh- Yeah, wars overseas.

[00:24:30] Um-

Friend: First of all, this needs to be said. There never was a war. [00:24:35] How can you say that, Bill? Well, a war is when two [00:24:40] armies are fighting.[00:24:45]

So you see right there, I think we can all agree. [00:24:50] I guess the most amazing thing about the war, obviously the disparity in the casualties. [00:24:55] Iraq, 150,000 casualties. USA [00:25:00] Seventy-nine. Let's go through [00:25:05] those numbers again. Um, they're a little baffling at first glance. Iraq, [00:25:10] 150,000. USA 79. [00:25:15] 79.

Michael: He's way ahead of the curve in terms of being a [00:25:20] psychonaut, somebody who, uh, is- Mm-hmm

pro- you know, a proponent of psychedelics and what they can do [00:25:25] for us.

Jacob: And-

Michael: And he's doing that at a time when nobody else is.

Jacob: And specifically, too, where, [00:25:30] uh, is the joke is like, I, I took LSD and went to s- uh, Sea World and had an awful [00:25:35] time. And it's like, go to nature.

Michael: You're a moron.

Jacob: Yeah. Yeah. So even that, where it's like, [00:25:40] no, no, no, it's not about doing the drugs, it's like the, it's, there's this- It's the [00:25:45] connection

squeak- squeegee your third eye. Yeah. Like, it doesn't ... Like, anyways, so like, yeah, [00:25:50] no, he, he was so far ahead in not only what to do, but why you're [00:25:55] doing it. Right. And then reading books. He was, uh I get her s- Yeah,

Michael: he's an intellectual ...

Jacob: the [00:26:00] whole, uh, whatcha reading for?

Michael: Yeah, yeah.

Jacob: What am I reading for? For?

I've never heard that before. But it's, [00:26:05] again, but prophetic in that, like, s- hear so many things about people don't read [00:26:10] anymore, people are illiterate, like- And anti-intellectualism-

Michael: Anti-intellectual- ... creeping across America, to use his [00:26:15] words ...

Jacob: no. I mean, yeah. And, like, you could almost feel when he's talking about people watching Cops or [00:26:20] people watching, like, reality TV, like, it's the same stuff now.

Yeah. [00:26:25] And, and peop- but, but no one was concerned about it back then, you know? So.

Michael: Um, [00:26:30] I mean, I think, I, my theory on, uh, shelf life, [00:26:35] uh, with humor is that things stay funny as long as they [00:26:40] stay true.

Jacob: Totally.

Michael: You know? Yeah. Um.

Jacob: Yeah, definitely.

Michael: Does that ... I would have thought that would have dovetailed on [00:26:45] something else you had for number one, but you can roll right into number two if you want.

Jacob: Yeah. I really love that he [00:26:50] had creativity outside of comedy. Like, let's set aside all of his comedy for a second, 'cause [00:26:55] that is the, the bulk of his life. Yeah. Basically, he's been doing it since he was, what, 14, 15? Yeah, 13 or something. 13. This [00:27:00]

Michael: is another thing, he's like a prodigy.

Jacob: Basically his whole life.

Yeah, yeah. But, but in the midst of all of [00:27:05] that, I mean, he was recording and playing in bands with his friends. He was [00:27:10] making low budget, like, uh, VHS movies.

Michael: Ninja Bachelor

Jacob: Party. Ninja Bachelor Party [00:27:15] one and two. Yeah. Um, he, he was writing. He was, um, almost doing, [00:27:20] like, spoken word, like, logs on tape of just kind of, like, his thoughts.

Mm-hmm. And, like, just all of [00:27:25] this stuff. He was restless in all of the things that he was putting out. You go on [00:27:30] YouTube right now and you can find, like, almost couple albums worth of just demos that he [00:27:35] recorded music. Like, he bought a reel-to-reel, he bought a bunch of instruments, he recorded [00:27:40] stuff with his friends, 'cause, like, it was fun to do.

And I, I thought about [00:27:45] why I like certain celebrities and don't like other celebrities, and I really t- [00:27:50] tend to be drawn to ones that even when they are not doing their day [00:27:55] job that is creative, they're, like, having these little hobby projects. Yeah. You know, we talked about this a lot with David [00:28:00] Lynch. I mean, he had a million hobbies.

Michael: Yeah. Came up with Val Kilmer too, at A&M.

Jacob: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, true. [00:28:05] And I, and I, I think that that's cool because it- Informs not only [00:28:10] their primary work that they are doing, but it's like it, it's a [00:28:15] curious person, it is a searching person. It's someone who's kinda got their eyes open to the world, [00:28:20] and I think that that plays into what he's doing with his comedy at its best- Yeah

is [00:28:25] he's looking around, he's asking questions, and, um, why stop at [00:28:30] comedy when you can do that all the time, you

Michael: know? Yeah. So- That's great, Jacob. That's a really good [00:28:35] one. And it's, it- there's an intellectualism to it as well. Yeah. Right? I mean, he's reading... And [00:28:40] he never went to college, right? So we've mentioned it a second ago- Barel-

Jacob: barely went to high school.

Michael: This is another [00:28:45] long-running theme of the show. I love people who are intellectual and, uh, not necessarily formally [00:28:50] educated.

Jacob: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Michael: You know? Totally. There's something about that personality style of, like- Yeah ... self-determined [00:28:55] intellectual - Yeah, truly ... that I find really attractive.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Um-

Jacob: Yeah [00:29:00] Um, I, and again, the last note on creativity outside of comedy that, like, sure, he might have wanted [00:29:05] to be a guitarist or a, a filmmaker.

I don't know what was in his, like, mind and heart, but, like, he [00:29:10] was just doing it to do it, and I think that's the best type of creativity to have.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: It's not to [00:29:15] sell something. It's not to put, put your name on a big billboard. It's just, "I wanted to [00:29:20] make a song. I made a song. I wanted to write a script.

I wrote a script. I wanted to make a movie with my friends. [00:29:25] We made a movie together." That the, the act of doing it is the primary [00:29:30] purpose,

Michael: you know? Yeah. That's sort of, that's a, that's got real echoes of David Lynch. Yeah, yeah. Um, but [00:29:35] I, I do think with Bill Hicks, I agree with all of that. I would also [00:29:40] say I think his destiny was always comedy.

Jacob: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Definitely. You

Michael: know? And there, and, and [00:29:45] like even Arizona Bay, I like the bits, and I can... You know, the music's sort of an interesting [00:29:50] experimental thing to do.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: I don't know if I would-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: say do that again on the next album.

Jacob: Yeah, [00:29:55] yeah. You know? Exactly. But, um, uh, I think the, the emphasis is less about comedy plus, uh, [00:30:00] something else.

It's like I'm always an advocate for, like, I don't even care if your job is to program [00:30:05] back-end servers- Yeah ... and then you go home and you play punk rock. Like, that's awesome. [00:30:10] Like, everyone should have a creative endeavor in some f- way. Um, and if you [00:30:15] don't, I think that you're missing out bec- not because we all should, like, collaborate [00:30:20] together.

It's, it's 'cause, 'cause it's inherently fun, and I, I wish for everyone to find their thing.

Michael: I [00:30:25] agree with that. I think it goes a level deeper. I think it's how you get in touch with your soul. Yeah. I think, I think [00:30:30] it has a spiritual tinge to it, so maybe that's not a bad segue- Segway ... into my number [00:30:35] three.

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, I'm gonna get kinda selfish here. I, I wanna talk a little bit more about [00:30:40] how much I relate to him. Yeah, sure. Um, so he is the youngest of three. He's got an older [00:30:45] brother, and his sister's the oldest, and he's tight with his brother. Uh, y- you get the sense learning [00:30:50] about his upbringing that he's, he's, like, defiant, rebellious, pissed off but doesn't [00:30:55] exactly have a reason to be, you know?

It's not like there's childhood trauma there. He's just, like, rebelling [00:31:00] against convention- Yeah ... at a young age. It's... I really relate to that.

Jacob: Yeah. Yeah,

Michael: yeah. Um, he's [00:31:05] p- you know, Texan with my kinda politics, and I don't think he's quite as easy to category [00:31:10] as, uh, categorize as you might think. I think that there's, you know, center left [00:31:15] parts.

There are sort of libertarian

Jacob: tendencies. Oh, he's a, he's a, he's got libertarian edge for sure.

Michael: Yeah, and I, and, and, [00:31:20] you know, definitely a, um, free speech warrior before that was a thing. Yeah. [00:31:25] Um, uh- His con- He never actually, like, lived in [00:31:30] Austin. That's, uh, something his brother corrected. So he, but he has a footprint in Austin.

All his buddies are [00:31:35] here, and he's crashing on couches. So his connection with Austin. Um, some of the [00:31:40] favorite books mentioned in his biography, I actually brought some of these.

Jacob: Hey, show and tell.

Michael: So, um, [00:31:45] big fan of, big fan of Vonnegut. Yeah. Yup. Um, Stranger in a Strange Land, I don't [00:31:50] know if you've ever read this.

I've heard of it. I have, yeah. My, um, Robert Heinlein did, uh, uh, [00:31:55] Starship Troopers. Oh. Oh, okay, yeah.[00:32:00]

So sci-fi, my, uh, the first teacher who ever thought I was worth a damn, a woman named Miss Douglas in seventh grade, um, gave me Most [00:32:05] Improved award, and she gave me this book. Whoa. And it was the biggest book I ever got, and it still, I think, has an inscription [00:32:10] from her. Yeah.

Friend: No

Michael: way. Um, so and then, uh, and then an [00:32:15] all-time favorite.

Are you familiar with Confederacy of Dunces? Do you know this book? No. Oh, dude. [00:32:20] Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Reading list. That book has some crazy lore. Um- Wow ... [00:32:25] Belushi, John Candy, and Chris Farley were all at one point-

Jacob: [00:32:30] Attached ...

Michael: attached. Yeah. And, uh, none of them made it to the finish line. Um, that book is [00:32:35] so fricking funny.

Okay. Um, so this book's... But then, and then this is kind of the big one, and I'm- ... [00:32:40] will be careful about how much I talk about it, but- Sure ... um, his journey into sobriety. Hm. [00:32:45] Um, 13 years ago, I hit a bottom. I reached out to somebody for help. [00:32:50] I had a very hard and beautiful conversation with somebody close to [00:32:55] me, and this was when I was living in California at the...

In the conversation, he said, "You should..." [00:33:00] Y- we, we decided together I should check out a meeting. I was in East Palo Alto, [00:33:05] California, and I found a meeting in the Menlo Park. It's about a 45-minute walk, and it was a beautiful [00:33:10] California summer evening. And on that walk, I started thinking about [00:33:15] my heroes. Hm.

I started thinking about the people who I really admire and [00:33:20] look up to. Um, I was listening to a lot of WTF at the time, so Marc Maron was there, [00:33:25] but then I started thinking about Bill Hicks. And Bill Hicks had at times [00:33:30] talked about his journey into recovery.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Um, something else I relate [00:33:35] to is that he got into mushrooms before he really got into drinking.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, I did, [00:33:40] too. I had been drunk once or twice and high once before I had a very intense psychedelic [00:33:45] experience- ... um, and then later, you know, discovered alcohol. And [00:33:50] Bill Hicks was the kind of alcoholic who when, like, it, it was light fuse [00:33:55] and get away. Like, he was, um-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: combustible.

Jacob: Yeah. Right?

Combustible. Well, they, [00:34:00] at one of the documentaries or somewhere, they tell the story of he's at the comedy club, and he's like, "I've never had a [00:34:05] shot of whiskey before. Give me seven." Yeah. You know? And it's like- And- ... okay. [00:34:10]

Michael: And, and it sounded like sometimes those sets were [00:34:15] unbelievable, and they were also a hot mess.

Oh,

Jacob: yeah.

Michael: Um, and- Oh, yeah ... and so he- Sometimes both ... [00:34:20] so-

Jacob: Just alternating between both, you know. Totally. Just, just really all over the place.

Michael: And he, so he [00:34:25] sobers up in '88. Um, most of the great albums we know of his [00:34:30] and most of his great comedy is after that moment. Yeah. There's something that, [00:34:35] that I really relate to in his drinking, which is at one point- [00:34:40] It worked.

At one point, I actually, like, I, I [00:34:45] am actually grateful to every drug I've ever taken- ... and I'm absolutely grateful for the [00:34:50] way I drank once upon a time. It made me confident. Oh. It made me willing to talk to girls. Uh-huh. It made me [00:34:55] try to be the life of a party- ... and getting involved in all kinds of crazy ass stories, right?

Yeah,

Jacob: yeah.

Michael: And, and, [00:35:00] and I think Bill Hicks discovered his voice- Mm-hmm ... as a result of drinking. Yeah. [00:35:05] And then he honed it as a result of sobriety.

Jacob: Definitely.

Michael: And- Yeah ... y- you know, if you [00:35:10] go through his history, I mean, he was interested in transcendental meditation, he was interested in, [00:35:15] you know- Yeah, yeah ... a spiritual journey- Yeah

in the kind of most bare bones, [00:35:20] open-minded sense, in a way that I, I, I do think... I don't think I ever [00:35:25] would've gotten sober if Bill Hicks hadn't been a point of inspiration for me.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Um, [00:35:30] and I hadn't put that together, again, until getting ready for this episode.

Jacob: [00:35:35] Yeah. That's great.

Michael: So that's my, that's my number three.

That's great. It's an inspired spiritual journey, and I think, I think we'll talk [00:35:40] more about the s- the spiritual side of it as we go through.

Jacob: Yeah. Uh- So

Michael: what do you have for number four?

Jacob: This one [00:35:45] actually I hold near and dear to my heart, and that is his public access and [00:35:50] DIY roots.

Michael: Yes.

Jacob: Yeah. One of my all-time favorite, uh, pieces of [00:35:55] media of his is when he's sitting in Austin, Texas at the Austin public, [00:36:00] uh, TV studios that still exist to this day.

Yes, it does. And I, I, I go there. I, [00:36:05] I teach classes. I make art there, and I can [00:36:10] picture where he sits in that room just taking phone calls for, like, two hours [00:36:15] on a public access show at whatever, like midnight or something. Yeah. Uh, like, and, and that's just one example, [00:36:20] but that's, that was right at the end of his life, and it's so nice to put him [00:36:25] in that time and place- Mm-hmm

and then be able to visit it in real life. It's like the connective, you know, like he's [00:36:30] still- Connective tissue ... around, you

Michael: know? Yeah, yeah.

Friend: If you see me on any, any kind of, [00:36:35] uh, uh, Letterman or HBO, you'll notice one difference. Um, on those, uh, networks and [00:36:40] channels, there's makeup and hair people.

Archival: Yeah, we just got the cuticle [00:36:45] people going on over here.

Friend: But, but I would, I would rather have freedom of expression than, uh, [00:36:50] well, this bald spot that you're showing so delightfully.

Archival: Look at my wardrobe. I don't need [00:36:55] any money. I'm rolling in dough.

Friend: Anyway, [00:37:00] uh, the point I'm making is about, uh, the idea of freedom of expression. [00:37:05] And I, and I believe that, uh, that there's this agenda, uh, in mainstream [00:37:10] media, and I think it's fairly easy to back this up, to keep people stupid, [00:37:15] docile, and apathetic.

And therefore, the elite who own these corporations and [00:37:20] the families that own the corporations, even fewer people, [00:37:25] their agenda is to keep us stupid and apathetic. That's why I love public access. And again, thanks for having [00:37:30] me on.

Archival: No, thank you for coming

Friend: out. I appreciate it.

Jacob: At a certain point in his career, he was very much [00:37:35] like, "I gotta get on TV.

I gotta get in movies. I gotta go to Hollywood." And then that doesn't go [00:37:40] anywhere, and then he's like, "You know what? I'm just gonna make everything myself." Yeah. And so he starts recording all of his sets.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: He starts [00:37:45] producing all of his own comedy albums. But he's a one-man operation [00:37:50] with his friends, of course.

Yeah. But, like, he's, you know, he's like, "I've got a VHS camcorder. [00:37:55] I've got a reel-to-reel. I'm, I'm just... I, I'm gonna do it. No one else believes in me. I believe in myself. [00:38:00] I'm gonna do it." And I think- Hmm ... now a lot of his [00:38:05] I don't know, back catalog, let's say, exists because he j- he made it [00:38:10] himself. Yeah. You know what I mean?

And I think-

Michael: And got his friends involved, but yeah.

Jacob: And when I say DIY, w- it's d- do [00:38:15] it yourself, but yourself always is a collective.

Michael: Right.

Jacob: So I, when I say yourself, I, I mean, like, [00:38:20] him with his friends, with his collaborators, with his buddies, but you build that up too, 'cause they have to believe in you, and you gotta [00:38:25] believe in them.

But I think that a lot of his staying power would have never [00:38:30] happened had he not taken it upon himself in the late '80s, early '90s, to just start [00:38:35] doing it, you know? Filming his own specials, um, just knowing [00:38:40] what works so that then finally when he does get some amount of fame and success, he's ready for [00:38:45] it because he's just been doing it.

Michael: To go back to my point about having a hard time to this [00:38:50] day believing he's dead, I think part of the reason for that is that he died at 32, and [00:38:55] yet there are all these bootleg recordings of him, right? There's

Jacob: inevitably something you've never heard [00:39:00] still out there that-

Michael: Totally ...

Jacob: and, and then what I like about him as a mythical figure is you can [00:39:05] imagine that there's a shoebox somewhere in Houston, Texas that has a tape of his.

Right. [00:39:10] You know what I mean? Like-

Michael: No, I agree ... there's, I'm- Like, you still- Yeah ... feel like there's, there could be more.

Jacob: There's, there could be [00:39:15] more. You know- And there probably is more ...

Michael: he is so natural. He sounds so [00:39:20] off the cuff and so in the moment, and he's so comfortable on stage- Yeah ... I think 'cause he's been [00:39:25] there since he's an adolescent, since he was a drunk, that, you know, you [00:39:30] always feel like this is the first time these thoughts are ever occurring to him.

Yeah. And then you hear another set and it's like, "Oh, I've heard that joke [00:39:35] before," but it is different. Yeah. And one thing I really like about all these bootlegs out there [00:39:40] is that, you know, it's very easy for us as fans to say, "I kinda like the way he did [00:39:45] it over here more." Yes. "A little over there." Like, there, there's a, there's a lot of availability to critique [00:39:50] the, the, the art of it, you know?

Jacob: Has a little bit of a Grateful Dead quality.

Michael: Totally. [00:39:55] Yeah. That's what, exactly what I was thinking.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: Um, there's actually a really good set that I, I found [00:40:00] recently, um, during his drunk era, and you can see him on stage, and he's not [00:40:05] bombing, but he's just kinda like, he's rambling and then he'll, like, stop.[00:40:10]

Friend: Folks, you're a great crowd, but I'm no judge[00:40:15] [00:40:20]

My parents, uh, my parents, you know, it's getting harder and harder. Once you get farther away [00:40:25] from it, it's cooler. You know what I mean?

Jacob: And it's so, like, in one way, like, dead and lifeless [00:40:30] because he's just, like, uh, you know, toward his, like, rock bottom era.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: But in the other, [00:40:35] you're like, man, he's like a professional.

He just knows all this stuff, and-

Michael: It's in there ...

Jacob: and, and you can [00:40:40] see the, the, the, uh, connective tissue being pulled apart where it, it doesn't [00:40:45] work.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And then you see him when he's, like, focused, and he's, like, on his [00:40:50] mark, and it just feels electric. Yeah. You know? And, and it's great to be able to compare and contrast [00:40:55] those.

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Okay, I'll give you- Yeah ... thing number five. Sure. And if you don't like it, we [00:41:00] can talk about it more.

Jacob: Sure, yeah. That's fine.

Michael: I really like how anti-commercial he is. Yeah. And this kind of goes with [00:41:05] DIY. As DIY.

Jacob: Maybe we tag it on as, like, a quick... You can say why.

Michael: Okay. I'll, I'll [00:41:10] just give a word on it.

I'm, I, I feel like there was a moment in the '90s where, [00:41:15] um, to sell out was a real stigma. Yeah. And somehow we lost [00:41:20] that. Yeah. Everybody wound up selling out. Yeah. Um, some of his most [00:41:25] vicious jokes are against Jay Leno for selling Doritos. Yeah. Yeah,

Jacob: yeah.

Michael: Um, there's some [00:41:30] interesting backstory there in terms of their relationship

Jacob: and- Well, 'cause they used to be friends

Michael: they were friends. Jay helped him [00:41:35] get him onto Letterman. Yeah. And in fact, after the Letterman cancellation, this I didn't know until I read the [00:41:40] biography, Jay apparently said, "I'm open to having your set on the Tonight Show." Whoa. Wow. Um, [00:41:45] so but Jay was like, called him like, "Why are you making fun of me?"

He's like, "I'm really disappointed in what you've become." [00:41:50] And this is... I, I, I, I do have, um, a [00:41:55] real bone to pick with our attitude towards [00:42:00] greed. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like there was a time, and maybe I'm just being [00:42:05] nostalgic, where greed was stigmatized. Yeah, yes. Like, greed was, uh, uh, seen [00:42:10] as a sin. Yeah. And I feel like we have let the hounds loose, and we [00:42:15] don't think that way anymore.

Well, yeah. And I, you know, I'm saying this on a [00:42:20] podcast that runs advertisements. Yeah. I have a hypocrisy here to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah. And I, and I'm [00:42:25] not opposed to selling, you know, products if, if I'm on board with it. I, I, it's not an [00:42:30] easy, you know, do you sell out to the man or not?

Sure. But his [00:42:35] integrity, um, is I think what I'm really trying to get at, and I think it does, um, [00:42:40] weave in with your point about DIY.

Jacob: Yeah. He was most [00:42:45] concerned about losing your ability to speak freely.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And, and that's why [00:42:50] he was so mad at Jay Leno. It's not that he got rich. It's that he stopped having a [00:42:55] voice.

Yeah. You know what I mean?

Michael: I see him as being somebody who has a [00:43:00] very, um- sacred view of the role of comedy and [00:43:05] satire- Yeah ... in a way that it does have to be as pure of [00:43:10] intent as possible- Yeah ... and not compromised. Yep. And it, this is easy to say about somebody who's [00:43:15] 32, on the cusp of fame. Sure. You know, and this is kind of the big what if of Bill Hicks- Yeah

had he broke- Yeah, [00:43:20] yeah ... um, big, you know- Yeah ... I mean, is it in some cosmic sense- [00:43:25] you know, we can think of him this way because it e- easy for him to say as somebody who's [00:43:30] never on the inside exactly?

Jacob: Exactly.

Michael: I don't know.

Jacob: Yeah, and, and I, I know this might turn into six [00:43:35] things if we count these- No, no, you said the

Michael: last one

No, no, no,

Jacob: Noel, I was gonna say that was kind of like a, a 4B, [00:43:40] but kind of its own thing. And but this one only 'cause it dovetails so nicely into that. [00:43:45] Um, I had road warrior.

Michael: Hmm.

Jacob: Um, I like that he was always on the [00:43:50] road, and there's like a, a, there's like a romanticism to being like a [00:43:55] troubadour and like going from town to town and, and you're like, he's preaching to the masses, and there's [00:44:00] that, even though, uh, we know it's not glamorous, and he hated it.

Yeah. But no, but I was thinking about [00:44:05] Bill Hicks as this symbol of comedy in Austin, and like what [00:44:10] do we have now? We have Joe Rogan- Yeah ... who locks himself in his studio. He doesn't go out on [00:44:15] the road. He's isolated in his bubble. What used to be edgy, he's literally [00:44:20] spewing propaganda- Hmm ... from the government.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And it's like, you, you [00:44:25] see how someone can start their career- But Rogan

Michael: cites him as an influence, too ...

Jacob: That's what I'm talking about, [00:44:30] though. Yeah. And you see someone who has built a, a brand on being like, "I'll say anything, I'll [00:44:35] talk to anyone, I'm so open-minded"

Friend: Free speech warrior.

Jacob: Yeah ... Free speech warrior, and then [00:44:40] slowly over time literally being a mouthpiece of the Department of [00:44:45] War.

Friend: Yeah.

Jacob: Like, how do you get there? Yeah. And, and I think the road warrior thing is so [00:44:50] crucial, that like if you isolate yourself in a community, if you have a bunch of yes-men all around you, if you [00:44:55] get all of this money and you're greedy, like you will become someone different-

Michael: Yeah ...

Jacob: no [00:45:00] matter who you are.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And I, I, so I like the road warrior aspect of his com- [00:45:05] comedy because it keeps him, uh, like hungry, it keeps him on the move, it keeps him [00:45:10] seeing stuff and meeting new people, and just kind of like ke- being focused in [00:45:15] such a way that like the road is ahead of me always. I'm [00:45:20] never gonna just sit in my fame, my comfort, my whatever I'm doing.[00:45:25]

It, the, the road is the direction. Hmm. And so I think it's really important to all the stuff that [00:45:30] we're talking about. You're

Michael: so good about this point, Jacob. It came up in David Lynch. It's coming up again today. It's about the journey, [00:45:35] not the destination. Yes. And, and the road- Yep ... is the journey, not the destination.

Yep. Yep. So we'll, we'll leave [00:45:40] it there. All right, so let's recap. So, uh, number one, um, I said prophetic. Yeah. [00:45:45] Um, he, he is kind of a prophet- Yeah ... I like to think. Totally. Uh, number two, you said-

Jacob: [00:45:50] Creativity outside of comedy ...

Michael: creativity outside of comedy. Number three, I said how much I relate to him, [00:45:55] particularly his journey into sobriety and the spiritual journey- Yeah

as well as many other [00:46:00] touchpoints. Uh, number four, DIY.

Jacob: Public access, DIY- And- ... and [00:46:05] anti-consumer ...

Michael: anti-consumer- That's great ... and anti-commercialism. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. And then number five, [00:46:10] road warrior.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: It's a really good list. Yep. It's a really good list. Okay. Let's take a break [00:46:15] for some advertisements.[00:46:20]

All right, category three, one love. In this category, we [00:46:25] will each choose one word or phrase that characterizes Bill Hicks' loving relationships. First, we'll [00:46:30] review the family life data. So, uh, no marriages and no kids. The man died at 32. [00:46:35] He was engaged to a woman named Colleen, who was his manager, who's still around.

Um, [00:46:40] real- and he had some- he had... This I didn't know until getting, uh, 'cause I just never looked at it [00:46:45] before. Mm-hmm. There, there was a, a lot of, like, pretty serious [00:46:50] girlfriends along the way. Mm-hmm. Um, as well, he's also got a great joke if you've ever heard the [00:46:55] one about, like, it's real hard to be a comic.

Takes a very special woman, you know, somebody who can put [00:47:00] up with all of it, or, or a whole bunch of mediocre women. Yeah. Which, which, uh, [00:47:05] oh, wow, that's, it's, uh... Anyway, um, [00:47:10] so they, you know, there's, there i- there are no Bill Hicks children. Uh, [00:47:15] there are only us, us acolytes and disciples. Um, I gave [00:47:20] this quite a bit of thought.

Yeah. Um, so I got something. You

Jacob: wanna go, you lead it? I al- I also have [00:47:25] something, but I'm curious because you actually found a book. Yeah. I was trying to find... I was literally trying to [00:47:30] find info online, and it's really hard to find things. I think you might have better insight, so that, for that [00:47:35] reason, I might wanna go first, and then- Okay.

Yeah,

Michael: yeah ... just- That sounds good. Yeah.

Jacob: Um- You go ahead. And this one, I was [00:47:40] trying to, uh, find the right words, so I went with something cheesy, but, it, that, it's fine. [00:47:45] Uh, lone star. Texan. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Lone star.

Michael: Yeah, yeah.

Jacob: [00:47:50] But, it, but those two things paired together I think, uh, symbolize a lot of [00:47:55] what he was about because early on, and he talks about this, uh, in his writings and [00:48:00] in his, like, tape recording diaries, he's so focused on, like, "I've gotta be famous.

I've gotta do [00:48:05] this thing." There, there's, like, this great 30-minute tape of him just, like, driving from New [00:48:10] York to Arkansas, and he's just narrating stuff, and he keeps talking about, like-

Archival: I felt, I guess what I'm [00:48:15] feeling is another stalemate in, uh, in my career, 'cause there's nothing else gonna [00:48:20] happen unless I get regular exposure on [00:48:25] national television, and the right kind of exposure.

But definitely, unless I [00:48:30] get some regular exposure, nothing's gonna happen. You know, and [00:48:35] I guess what I need to do is rest, and e- and figure out what I wanna do. Do I wanna do [00:48:40] Carson sets or Letterman sets, and write bits for those particular shows, [00:48:45] and focus on that, or, um, what? But there's gotta be a [00:48:50] change in my lifestyle.

My salvation comes from me[00:48:55]

So that's basically it. I mean, I just [00:49:00] can't think straight right now, you know? I can't think straight. I only know that if I continue the way I [00:49:05] was, I would be spiritually, physically, mentally, emotionally [00:49:10] dead in a very short time.

Jacob: I think the, the star thing was always [00:49:15] kind of important to him, even from being a boy, and it was something that sort of, like, [00:49:20] was always the thing that he couldn't have, and I think that that almost became an [00:49:25] obsession a lot of times.

You know, talking about why doesn't he have these deep relationships or [00:49:30] connections or whatever, like, it was to the limelight in a s- in a-

Michael: Yeah ...

Jacob: weird [00:49:35] way, you know? And then that caused him to be lonely, right? He has a whole bit about [00:49:40] being, he's, he calls himself the lonely sheepherder. You know, just ranting to his, uh, [00:49:45] sheep, the audience, Yeah, yeah

o- over the stars 'cause he only performs at night. Yeah. Um, [00:49:50] you know, he, he, uh, in his, some of his worst moments, he is pretty [00:49:55] misogynistic and you kind of see this sort of like, you don't know if he's being, like, [00:50:00] edgy or if he actually is resentful. A- and sometimes it might [00:50:05] fluctuate. And so, like, you see these qualities in him that [00:50:10] are potentially on the verge of being toxic but then, you know, come back, you know?

Hmm. So [00:50:15] I, I think that ultimately he chose the pursuit of [00:50:20] his profession and of his art and being pure and truthful over everything [00:50:25] else. And so yeah, lone star, he kind of, like, [00:50:30] willingly made that choice despite how much it, like, hurt him to be alone. He talks about this a l- [00:50:35] lot of his comedy.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: Um, and he wrote songs about how lonely [00:50:40] he is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a, like a- I know, I mean- ... like a country star, you know?

Michael: And, and, and had bouts of depression. I mean, like- Bouts of

Jacob: dep- [00:50:45] Yeah ... just all of it. But I- Yeah ... do think, like, at the end of the day, he would've said, [00:50:50] "Yeah, I mean, I chose it, and that's, that's, like, the life that I'm living."

Michael: I think I [00:50:55] thought that...

I had a different read.

Jacob: Yeah, and that's why I wanted to hear it.

Michael: Yeah. 'Cause you're, you've got more knowledge. I had a different [00:51:00] read, and I was surprised. I, I had no read on his romantic [00:51:05] relationships until the biography, and it is... I mean, there was a, a high school [00:51:10] girlfriend where it was deep and passionate.

And then there was somebody else who was with [00:51:15] him as he was considering moving to New York. There was somebody who helped, uh, who was with him through [00:51:20] sobriety, a woman he was engaged to, and he is a lot [00:51:25] more of a romantic than I would have thought. I do think that th- [00:51:30] you're 100% right that there's a lot of, you know, misogyny that exists in a [00:51:35] context in his comedy.

I don't think he was quite the [00:51:40] misogynist I thought he was- Yeah ... actually. Um- Yeah ... I also think [00:51:45] that, um, the other thing that, that was true in everything I read [00:51:50] and saw about him is that he ultimately, like- [00:51:55] came to be really tight with his family.

Jacob: Yes. Yeah.

Michael: Um, his mom and [00:52:00] dad, brother and sister, and that's who he wanted with him when he died.

Yeah. So [00:52:05] that leads me to my word or phrase. I was looking for something circular.

Jacob: [00:52:10] Mm-hmm.

Michael: Um, and what I wrote is, uh, flying [00:52:15] saucer, Enchanted Rock. So, okay. Yeah, yeah. Flying saucer is in reference to he [00:52:20] called it his Flying Saucer Tour. Yeah. I like flying saucers. They've been showing up in, uh, small [00:52:25] southern towns in front of handfuls of hillbillies lately.

Um, that's what he was like- And I'm

Jacob: beginning to doubt my own existence.

Michael: [00:52:30] Exactly. Um, but I... So I was also going for, like, the spirit and the [00:52:35] sky, the same way you're going for star with, with lone star. Yeah. I wrote Enchanted Rock too [00:52:40] because there's a, there's a two friends who he used to do, uh, mushrooms with [00:52:45] at a r- uh, ranch near Fredericksburg, Texas, and Fredericksburg is right next to Enchanted Rock.

[00:52:50] Yeah. I've, I've had, I've tripped out there before. And one of my favorite mushroom [00:52:55] trips of all time was at Enchanted Rock. And I, I guess what I was going for was [00:53:00] inner circle and spirituality. Yeah. I liked the idea, and I liked the image of a flying saucer [00:53:05] at Enchanted Rock, I guess. Yeah. Um, I was moved by- [00:53:10] the relationship he developed particularly with his parents when he- Yeah

was [00:53:15] dying, because it seems like, like that he wanted his family around him when he [00:53:20] died. I guess maybe most of us do, but I wouldn't have thought of him as-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: sentimental- Yeah ... [00:53:25] and, and romantic that way. Yeah. Um, it, it, it, i, I think that [00:53:30] word that really stuck out in that Pitchfork article of compassion- Yeah

that came from the [00:53:35] home- Yeah ... in a way that really surprised me. So-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: these are probably the wrong [00:53:40] words, Flying Saucer and Shanda Roth- No, no, it is, yeah ... but that's just, these were all the thoughts I had about his, his sort of loving [00:53:45] relationships.

Jacob: Yeah. Um, I think the point about his family is really [00:53:50] interesting because, um, I think in one of the documentaries that I watched, his mom [00:53:55] says like, "Oh, well, everyone wants their mom when they're sick."

And she kinda just writes it off as [00:54:00] like, "Of course he would come back home." But like- Yeah ... th- that it almost feels like [00:54:05] it, it's like a secret or like a wink, you know? Yeah. Where it's like, "I got, I got you, Bill. Like, I [00:54:10] know that you said that you hated your family and stuff, but like I know that you really loved us."

And like, you know [00:54:15] what I mean? Like, it, it, it was a, it was an interesting moment.

Michael: I

Jacob: totally- 'Cause I think his [00:54:20] mom is actually, in many ways, like she's the, she's the thing in his brain [00:54:25] that like she's smarter than she leaves on. She's funnier. We'll talk about this later with [00:54:30] David Letterman. Yeah. When she goes on the Letterman Show, she's hilarious.

Michael: Yes, I love this. So you're gonna talk about this later?

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: [00:54:35] Okay.

Jacob: Yeah. But no, but yeah, so I think, um, he, uh, also, uh, they [00:54:40] talk, um, in one of the documentaries of how he would like go on tour for months and then [00:54:45] come back home and they would have a family retreat. Yeah. And he, and there's footage of him like playing with his like nephews [00:54:50] and nieces, and he just looks like so-

Michael: He looks like a family man.

Jacob: Yes.

Michael: And I think we just- And it was so natural ... never got [00:54:55] to see that, 'cause the man- Yeah ... died at 32. Yeah. It- I think he was growing in that direction.

Jacob: Yeah, definitely. [00:55:00] Um, so-

Michael: Um, th- there, there is, there is a inner circle- Oh, yeah ... that is [00:55:05] family and is tight friends. So while he is- alone, [00:55:10] and I think scared of solitude, he's also got more [00:55:15] relational wealth than you might think for somebody who is a road comic.

Jacob: Yes, definitely. Okay. Yeah.

Michael: [00:55:20] Okay. I

Jacob: agree. I

Michael: think- All right, let's move on. Yeah? Bo-

Jacob: bo- both can be true.

Michael: Both can be true, okay.

Jacob: He's a [00:55:25] contradictory figure.

Michael: He is. Yes, indeed. All right, so, uh, let's move on, category four, net worth. In [00:55:30] this category, Jacob and I are gonna guess the net worth of Bill Hicks. The results are sourced from the website [00:55:35] celebritynetworth.com.

We'll write down our numbers ahead of time before we reveal, and then we'll place Bill Hicks on the [00:55:40] Famous Gravy net worth leaderboard. I have not looked this up. I definitely was gonna find anything. I am gonna be surprised if [00:55:45] they had a number. Um- Let's- ... it's not, it's not gonna be Whitney Houston, 20 million in [00:55:50] debt, but it, so he won't be at the very bottom.

He's not at the

Archival: bottom.

Michael: I don't think so, but I'll be curious. Well- Okay, [00:55:55] so Jacob Rice wrote down $100,000.

Jacob: Uh, Michael [00:56:00] Osborne wrote down $1 million. All right. I, I think the million, the, the million feels like the lowest you [00:56:05] would guess for, like, someone who's famous, but I-

Michael: I think some of the, uh, sets, [00:56:10] okay, so Bill Hicks did not have an officially documented- Yeah

or verified net worth at the time of his [00:56:15] death.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: I think that sounds right. That's fine. The estate, um, let's see, there's [00:56:20] no reliable record, even of the estate. I, fine. Yeah. I mean, this, this has a mirror reflection [00:56:25] with the fact that there's no New York Times obit.

Jacob: Here's what I think would be interesting though, [00:56:30] um, and this, to talk about some of the things we've talked about, is he [00:56:35] now has a life through his work, and yet [00:56:40] I don't think anyone's making any money off of it, which is to my public access point.

Michael: [00:56:45] No.

Jacob: Like, who would be collecting royalties and how? And I think that this is, like, a cool thing [00:56:50] of, like, he's sort of this public, uh, public domain figure.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: But [00:56:55] I get- That's a good

Michael: way of putting him.

Jacob: But I get the sense that, like, even if all of his stuff [00:57:00] had been, like, copyrighted, and, like, he's getting returns, and, and money, and revenue, and stuff, [00:57:05] like, I still don't think it would accumulate to that much.

Michael: Probably not.

Jacob: I think saying, like, one [00:57:10] million would be like, okay, maybe if he was alive today, you could very easily see him have a million, $2 million, [00:57:15] whatever. But I think at the time it was nothing.

Michael: I think [00:57:20] that's true, although- One thing, this is also in the biography, I didn't know, there were [00:57:25] very serious talks about a show in the UK.

Jacob: Mm-hmm.

Michael: When you go overseas, if you talk to [00:57:30] Brits- Mm ... who are our age or older, they know who Bill Hicks is. Yeah, yeah, [00:57:35] yeah. He is a household name- Yeah ... in the, uh, o- in the UK, and to some extent in Australia too. I [00:57:40] believe it, yeah. He, he made it there. Yeah. He broke there in a way he never did here.

Jacob: Totally.

Michael: I [00:57:45] think that there were business opportunities- Yeah

waiting for him, a- which led [00:57:50] me to a million bucks. Yeah. That's fine. But I picked that number out of a hat.

Jacob: That's fine, yeah.

Michael: I should've gone one [00:57:55] billion. I mean, whatever. It doesn't matter, right? Um.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Anything more to... So okay, there [00:58:00] is no, uh, placing Bill Hicks on the net worth leaderboard. He is, in terms of the afterlife at the dinner [00:58:05] table, I think just hovering at all tables.

He's, he's paying the visit.

Jacob: Yeah. Who, what is the lowest [00:58:10] tier table? Is it a million?

Michael: So at the very bottom of the net worth leaderboard- [00:58:15] Uh, oh, Diego Maradona, $1 million [00:58:20]

Jacob: You know?

Michael: Um, just above him at two, we've got a handful at two, Bushwick [00:58:25] Bill, Biz Markie, Larry McMurtry, Waylon Jennings, and then at three [00:58:30] we have Norm Macdonald, Burt Reynolds, and Jerry Jeff Walker.

There's a lot of Texas figures down here. Yeah, I

Jacob: was g- [00:58:35] What does that say about Texas?

Michael: We can't handle our money, I guess. Yeah.

Jacob: Um-

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: [00:58:40] Okay ... that's funny, 'cause I was actually thinking about how I would love to have seen, like, a Larry [00:58:45] McMurtry, Bill Hicks conversation. I think they had a lot in common- Yeah

despite [00:58:50] being kind of, I don't know, on different ends of the, the, like-

Michael: No, but if [00:58:55] I'm putting together a short list of people who represent [00:59:00] Texas culture in a way you might not think about it-

Jacob: Yeah,

Michael: yeah ... those two- Bill, Bill Hicks- ... are at the top of the list ... Larry

Jacob: [00:59:05] McMurtry, and-

Michael: Molly Ivins is up there for me.

Yeah. Um-

Jacob: Yeah. Cool.

Michael: All [00:59:10] right, uh, let's move on. Category five. Those, uh, ca- Non,

Jacob: non-conclusive.

Michael: Yeah. [00:59:15] Category five, Malkovich Malkovich or Tiny Trophy. In this category, we each choose a [00:59:20] trophy, an award, a cameo, an impersonation, or some other form of a hat tip that shows a different side of [00:59:25] this person, or you can choose what's called a Malkovich Malkovich moment, where you get to choose a [00:59:30] m- period in somebody's life, and just like in the movie John Malkovich, take a portal to [00:59:35] have a front row seat to their experiences.

Jacob: Before you tell yours, I do wanna give one [00:59:40] tiny, the tiniest of tiny trophies. Apparently, the Radiohead album The Bends- I saw [00:59:45] this ... is dedicated to Bill Hicks. I

Michael: couldn't believe

Jacob: that. And I love, and it, speaking- That's a great album ... speaking, is one [00:59:50] of the best- Yeah, I, they've said- ... of the, of the era. Um- Do you h-

Michael: do you prefer that to OK Computer?

Jacob: No, OK Computer's better, Kid A is [00:59:55] better. Yeah. But The Bends is, like, really time and a place. Like, it, it's maybe, uh, [01:00:00] I, l- love Radiohead. I talked about that a little bit on David Lynch. But, um, uh, it's one [01:00:05] of the best of their albums, and they have a lot of good ones.

Michael: I had no idea it was dedicated to Bill Hicks.

Jacob: It's because- And it speaks

Michael: to [01:00:10] the

Jacob: UK ... the UK, exactly. Yeah. That's what... But I, I saw that, and I was like, you know what? That's, like, r- that, [01:00:15] that is a huge honor to, l- like, in my mind, that Radiohead would single you [01:00:20] out as, like, that's a true artist. Yeah. Like, I think that that deserves a tiny trophy.

Michael: Yeah.[01:00:25]

Jacob: But I have a better Malkovich moment, but I'd like you to go first.

Michael: Uh, so started to talk about [01:00:30] it a second ago. Um, after, so he gets diagnosed. He has, [01:00:35] uh, stomach pains. He's traveling a lot. He finally goes to a doctor in the summer of [01:00:40] 1993, which is when he learns he's got pancreatic cancer. Um, and he- [01:00:45] You know, he, he learns that the odds are not good.

He, he does [01:00:50] undergo chemo, and he, he, and the tumor is responding for a period of time. [01:00:55] And to hear the people talk about it, it sounds like [01:01:00] he did not think he was gonna die. Yeah. It was not like he had resigned himself to [01:01:05] his mortality. He

Jacob: was still touring. He

Michael: was still touring. I mean, he was like, he- And he wasn't telling anybody about [01:01:10] it, in a very Norm Macdonald way.

But he did call up a couple of old friends and say, [01:01:15] "You know, we used to have these, um, very intense mushroom trips out at this [01:01:20] ranch in Fredericksburg. I'd love to do that again." And he goes out there, and there's a- [01:01:25]

Archival: The only thing to me that signaled that something was a little bit different [01:01:30] is when I suggested something that we were gonna do in the future, [01:01:35] that he didn't say anything.

Like he knew there wasn't gonna be a next time. [01:01:40] Then he wanted to take a photo when we got back to [01:01:45] my house. I think that he wanted one last photo shoot[01:01:50] [01:01:55]

Michael: And he somehow doesn't tell his friends even then about [01:02:00] the diagnosis. Mm-hmm. Um, they find out later. [01:02:05] I don't know how you don't- How you keep that information in when [01:02:10] you're on that, that, when you're, when you're- When you're

Jacob: on a heroic dose of- [01:02:15]

Michael: Oh, when you're... Yeah ... psilocybin. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. I mean, I, I just feel like all the walls are down.

Um, but I [01:02:20] also think that it sounds to me like the kind of trip you [01:02:25] hear about these days, where psychedelics are being administered in clinical settings-

Jacob: Yes ...

Michael: [01:02:30] to- Yes ... um, patients who have a terminal diagnosis. Like

Jacob: in hospice. Yeah.

Michael: [01:02:35] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And are making peace with their death. Um- Yeah ... I would [01:02:40] like to be around the campfire for that mushroom trip.

Yeah. I wanna, I [01:02:45] wanna, you know, 'cause I... You know, there, there, there are [01:02:50] lines from Bill Hicks. One thing I love about him, and, and maybe this'll come up more in Words to Live By, [01:02:55] but w- i- i- he will slip in these bits of spiritual wisdom in [01:03:00] his comedy- Yeah ... in between dick jokes. Yeah. Right? And, and it's sort of incredible how, like, [01:03:05] wait, that phrase was really good.

We should linger on that poetry. Oh, you're talking about, you know, penises [01:03:10] again. Yeah. And you know, you're laughing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so I, I, I would like to laugh my ass [01:03:15] off with mushrooms, um, and, and be part of that- Yeah ... be part of that group tripping. Yeah. [01:03:20]

Jacob: I was thinking about, um, why would he want [01:03:25] to go on this psychedelic trip with his friends?

And it's like he wanted [01:03:30] to get closure, but he didn't want to have closure of, like, everyone's looking [01:03:35] at him, and everyone's saying how sad they are. He wanted closure of, like, "What we did when we were younger was [01:03:40] real. That was meaningful, and I, I just, I simply wanna have that [01:03:45] time with my friends again."

And I think there's something even more powerful than that, to keep it [01:03:50] secret. And yes, you know it, but, like, you create, what do they say, set and setting. [01:03:55] Mm-hmm. Right? Like, it's not I'm on my death bed. That's not the setting. [01:04:00] It is I'm with my friends in a safe space that we all love, and we're having this moment [01:04:05] together, and I think that's why that Malkovich moment is powerful, is that he [01:04:10] created the perfect environment to have this sort of, like, [01:04:15] send-off with his friends- Yeah

and to get something meaningful out of it and not burden [01:04:20] them as well with, like, making it weird you

Michael: know? Well, well, right. I, uh, when I, I [01:04:25] also, I mean, I, I also think about, like, the overwhelming feelings of connection that can happen on a [01:04:30] s- on a, on psilocybin-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: and being in nature, and, and maybe, like, our [01:04:35] conception, our mysteries, uh, around what death is, like, this is the setting [01:04:40] to remind ourselves we really don't know.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: You know? Th- Yeah ... let's, let's, let's see the [01:04:45] universe as best we can - Yeah, yeah ...

Jacob: and

Michael: take it in. And, uh, and, [01:04:50] and, and there is also something in the book about, [01:04:55] apparently he communicated to his friends, like, "You can find me there again." Yeah, yeah. You know? "If you [01:05:00] wanna find me again, I'll be- at that campfire underneath that tree on this ranch.

Jacob: [01:05:05] Yeah.

Michael: So what did you, what did you have here? I mean, we can linger here for a while. Well,

Jacob: well this is a good segue too because, [01:05:10] um, so after he passes, I can't remember, it's like 10, 15 years later or something, the David [01:05:15] Letterman Show-

Michael: Yeah ...

Jacob: for some, for whatever reason, I don't even know why. Maybe there was, it was his box set came out or [01:05:20] something and someone was doing some promo and they remembered, "Oh, we got that tape of Bill."

And so the David [01:05:25] Letterman Show invited Bill's mom- Yes ... to come on as a guest [01:05:30] to do an interview with Dave.

Archival: How, how did you feel about coming here tonight? Was, was [01:05:35] this a, an, an easy, uh, decision for you to make? I, I mean, I was, uh, I, I thought-

Were you [01:05:40] surprised that I accepted?

I, I, well, I, I- Believe me, I'm surprised [01:05:45] when anybody- Yeah

comes here.

I-

No, wasn't [01:05:50] surprised. But, but part of me, uh, thought, "Well, she has every reason not to- Not

to come ...

come here."

Yeah. That's [01:05:55] right. Yeah. I had a lot of reasons not to come. And I thought [01:06:00] about it, and then I decided to come.

Good. I'm glad you're here. A- and a- and [01:06:05] again, I, I know I can't make up for the damage that was caused, but I hope [01:06:10] symbolically this means something to you.

Well, it does. All right. And, and I will tell you that that was a very [01:06:15] hard time 15 years ago- Yes ... when that happened, and I just will have to [01:06:20] tell you that it was.

Well, I'm well aware of that.

I know that.

I, I, I don't know [01:06:25] personally how difficult it was, but I can certainly, now that I have a son, I can certainly- Absolutely

imagine, [01:06:30] imagine what that-

You had to have a child to

know. That's right. That's right.

Okay. What else you wanna [01:06:35] know?[01:06:40]

Michael: She's very charming ... a

Jacob: natural. Yeah. She's so good at it. And [01:06:45] then they play the clip. They- Bill's set, yeah ... the, the, the set, and then close it out and [01:06:50] basically say, like, "We were wrong, and here it is, and we're sorry," and, you know, make amends. So [01:06:55] my Malkovich moment is I hope, I wish that I could be, you know, Bill from, you know, the [01:07:00] afterlife peering in from that, that ranch, uh, in Fredericksburg, Texas, whatever.[01:07:05]

Archival: Yeah.

Jacob: I mean, he even has a joke, one of his, one of his, uh, nastier jokes about, [01:07:10] uh, you know, his girlfriend breaks up with him, and now he's driven of this vision [01:07:15] that she's gonna be in a trailer park- Right. ... with nine kids, and sh- she's gonna have this 900-pound [01:07:20] husband, and he's... A- anyways. On and on and on and on, and- It's a

Michael: really good joke.

Jacob: It's- On and on and on. It's, yeah. But- [01:07:25] And, and h- he's gonna, uh, uh, his heart's gonna explode, and she's gonna be trapped under his [01:07:30] body, and then she's, in her dying breath, she's gonna look at The Tonight Show, and I'm gonna be on it. Yeah,

Michael: yeah. [01:07:35]

Jacob: It would... But that punchline is so, again, prophetic of, like, even in the [01:07:40] afterlife he gets the last joke of, like, he's gone, and here is the [01:07:45] David Letterman Show airing his stuff.

You know, there's, there's something that's just [01:07:50] so beautiful about, you know, he's made fun of his family his whole life. He's made amends with them. [01:07:55] He's rallied against, you know, d- uh, Jay Leno and, and, like, corporate TV and all that stuff, [01:08:00] saying that you can't be real on TV, and they, they blocked him, and so, uh, you know, oh, he was right.

[01:08:05] But in the end, he has the last laugh where his family kinda makes amends, say, like, "We [01:08:10] love him," and, "Yeah, we didn't love all of his jokes, but he was awesome." David Letterman [01:08:15] saying, "You know, we were wrong to block this. We're gonna air it in its entirety." And they all come [01:08:20] together and just basically say, like, "Bill, you were right.

We, we're sorry." Yeah. And, [01:08:25] like, "You've been right this whole time." Yeah. And it's such like a bringing all the elements [01:08:30] together of, like, the stardom, uh, getting his word out, not compromising. [01:08:35] And it doesn't matter how many years later. 10 years, 5 years, 15 years, 50 [01:08:40] years, I'm still gonna be there 'cause what I said was true, and you can [01:08:45] accept it whenever you're ready.

Yeah. You know what I mean? It's, like, all of the things about his life all in one [01:08:50] moment.

Michael: All right. Let's take another break[01:08:55]

Category six, words to live by. In this category, we will each [01:09:00] choose a quote. These are either words that came out of Bill Hicks's mouth or was said about him. [01:09:05] This is impossible.

Jacob: Uh, this one is, is, is one of his jokes, and I think [01:09:10] about it a lot. Um, he's telling his, like, jokes about, uh, Jesus and [01:09:15] Christianity and, and railing about it, and it's the, "Hey, buddy."

Michael: Yeah. Pushing [01:09:20]

Friend: the- Come here. Mr. Funny Man, come here. "Hey, buddy, we're [01:09:25] Christians. We don't like what you said." I said, "Then forgive me."[01:09:30]

Jacob: And, and again, it's like, it's not mean, [01:09:35] and it's like understanding like what Christianity is all about in the way that's like the deep [01:09:40] fundamental root of it all of like forgiveness and love, and I should be able to [01:09:45] say all of these things on stage, and you should be able to forgive me, I should be able to forgive [01:09:50] you.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: What I like about it, he sort of like intook all of the stuff and filtered out all of [01:09:55] the, like, hypocrisy and all of the, like, pageantry and, but still at the end of the [01:10:00] day retained some of these core principles. That's

Michael: where I was going with. Take what you like and leave the rest behind. Yep. Yeah. I feel [01:10:05] like he was somebody who was looking for, you know, things that he could [01:10:10] relate to and truth where he could find it.

Yeah. And that's why that joke works so well. Then forgive me.

Jacob: Then forgive [01:10:15] me. There could be many, many others to- Yeah ...

Michael: but- I, I gotta share some of my, my favorites Please. Oh, [01:10:20] yeah, please. Yeah. Okay. So, um, you know, it, 'cause the thing is, like, his, his comedy feels [01:10:25] infinite at times. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think if you read these without inflection, they all work.

Um, [01:10:30] love the joke, "A young man on acid thought he could fly, jumped off a building. What a tragedy. What a [01:10:35] dick." Yeah. Uh, "He thought he could fly? Why didn't he take off from the ground first? He's a moron. He's dead. [01:10:40] Good. Why so upset, Bill? We lost a moron. No, no, we lost a moron." Yeah. Um- You

Jacob: don't see pigeons taking the [01:10:45] elevator to the roof, you know?

Yeah. Take off from the ground first.

Michael: Exactly.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Test it [01:10:50] out. Um, I, I- I'm go blaming acid on this guy ...

Jacob: I had positive drug story as well and

Michael: yeah. Yeah. Um- [01:10:55] Uh, "I'm launching a show called Let's Hunt and Kill Billy Ray Cyrus. Each week we set the hounds of hell [01:11:00] loose on that no-talent cracker asshole." Uh, uh, "Our goal is to rid the world of all [01:11:05] these- Fevered egos

fevered egos that are tainting our collective unconscious." And the producer at CBS said, "Will there [01:11:10] be titty?" Uh, sure. Uh, check falls in my lap, boom, I'm a producer now. Okay, here's [01:11:15] what I love about that one. Yeah. He just shoehorns in this phrase, "Rid the world [01:11:20] of all these fevered egos tainting our collective unconscious."

That [01:11:25] is- Yeah ... the problem with culture. Yes, yes. We have all these fevered egos- Yeah ... tainting our collective [01:11:30] unconscious. Will there be titty? Like, it's such a great joke. Like, y- you know, [01:11:35] he's got killing Billy Ray Cyrus- Yeah ... on one side, and- Yeah ... this- Yeah ... good joke on the other.

Jacob: Yeah. [01:11:40]

Michael: Um-

Jacob: Yeah, yeah ...

Michael: it, the, the line, "Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely [01:11:45] energy condensed to a slow-moving vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself [01:11:50] subjectively.

There's no such thing as death, life is just a dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves," that [01:11:55] is poetry. Yeah. I mean, this is like-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: like, that, that, th- there- there's no better words to [01:12:00] describe what psychedelics fucking feels like.

Jacob: Yeah,

Michael: yeah. Um- Yeah ... I went a different direction.

Jacob: Okay. [01:12:05]

Michael: Okay. So I was gonna read from the book.

This is the one passage- Great ... I wanted to read. Oh. So he writes this 42-page [01:12:10] letter- Oh ... to The New Yorker. This

Jacob: was, this was after he got canceled.

Michael: This was after he got canceled from [01:12:15] Letterman. Uh- Yeah ... and he's pissed off- Yeah, sure ... about having been canceled from Letterman.

Jacob: Sure.

Michael: Uh, and [01:12:20] he, he writes this.

This is just one passage from the letter. "The artist always plays to himself, and I [01:12:25] believe the audience seeing that one person can be free to express his thoughts, however strange they [01:12:30] may seem, inspires the audience to feel that perhaps they too can freely express their [01:12:35] innermost thoughts with impunity, joy, and release, and perhaps discover our common [01:12:40] bond, unique yet so similar with each other."

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: W- why [01:12:45] those are words to live by, I think they get back to the point that, for me, Bill Hicks [01:12:50] is not just an inspiration, he's somebody who continues to challenge me.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Like, I, I... [01:12:55] You know, I'm not in a point in my life anymore, Jacob, where I'm [01:13:00] going out on the ed- edge- ... uh, you know? But I still want [01:13:05] to, and I still feel like that's the point, and I feel like part of his rock and roll persona [01:13:10] and part of, like, what he represents is a fearlessness- Yeah

that, [01:13:15] um, that when expressed, and what I hear in that quote, is when somebody does that [01:13:20] on, on, on behalf of an audience, it makes us [01:13:25] all more brave.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Makes us all more courageous.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: And, um- [01:13:30] And those are words to live by.

Jacob: I, uh, absolutely agree. All right. Um, [01:13:35] and, and to, to, you know, to your point about going out on the edge, I think, like, even when Bill was sober, like, he [01:13:40] was still going out on the edge- Oh, yeah

because through, like, literally just, like, reading and thinking [01:13:45] and challenging himself intellectually, I think that that can mean so many different things. And I know, I know [01:13:50] you're not saying that it- otherwise, but I'm just saying, like, I think that that is so applicable to anyone at [01:13:55] any stage in their life- Yeah

that you can always go further.

Michael: I think his obsession with [01:14:00] flying saucers and with space is more about, um, the inner exploration, and he [01:14:05] says as much. Yeah,

Jacob: yeah, yeah.

Michael: Right? In the whole just a ride speech.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: You know, we can explore space [01:14:10] together both inner and outer. Yeah. The way he slips that in is kind of masterful.

Jacob: Yes, yes.

Michael: Um, so [01:14:15] I... And I do agree, and honestly, I think it's kind of the mandate of Famous and Gravy [01:14:20] in a way. Yeah, yeah. Not necessarily to take, like, crazy risks, but to, like, g- go [01:14:25] on that search and- Yeah ... see if we can't find deeper truths surrounding fame and death- [01:14:30] Yeah ... in a way that- Yeah ... people can take those lessons back.

Yeah. I feel like that's the learning journey of this podcast.

Jacob: [01:14:35] Yeah, I have a, I have a cap on that one that I didn't mention that- Oh, please ... this one, this one he kind of spits out at a [01:14:40] heckler, but he, he tells someone in the audience, "You need to grow a soul."

Michael: Yeah, that's pretty

Jacob: [01:14:45] good. And it's like, it's one of those things where it's just like, ah, that, like, it goes, like, through you.

It's like he's not even [01:14:50] mad. He's like, "You-

Michael: Grow a soul.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: All right. Let's move on. Category seven, [01:14:55] man in the mirror. This category asks a fairly simple question. Did this person like their reflection, yes or [01:15:00] no? This is not a question about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment.

Did you have [01:15:05] a complicated answer here?

Jacob: No, I think yes.

Michael: Yeah, that's where I was at. And- I didn't have to think too much. I think there's a little bit [01:15:10] of nuance in there. I do think that there's some self-loathing i- in, in- Some ... some of his [01:15:15] alcoholism, but I think the man, I think he found himself.

Jacob: Oh, yeah.

Michael: You know?

And I think he [01:15:20] is- I mean, he feels like a fully realized-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: [01:15:25] human- Mm-hmm ... um- Yeah ... even at age 32.

Jacob: Definitely, yeah. Well, and it's [01:15:30] weird, 'cause I think he found himself very young where, and when he found comedy, and he found v- v- very, like- Performance ... "I found my [01:15:35] thing."

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And then he, like, dips down and loses himself, but then he comes back around, so.

Michael: Totally. There [01:15:40] is a full arc of a life condensed- Yeah ... in these 32 years- Yeah ... in a way that's sort of-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: [01:15:45] um, intimidating.

Jacob: Yeah. And striking. No, totally. Um, and he has a lot of jokes about hating his [01:15:50] haircut and outer appearance, but that's all a joke. I- Yeah. And I, I did write, I, I think it's funny, I [01:15:55] think he might actually look in the mirror and not like his reflection, but then remember that the reflection is [01:16:00] simply an illusion.

Yeah. We are beings of pure light, and, uh- Yeah ... he would see himself, uh, [01:16:05] through the mirror. Uh,

Michael: well said. Good point. I, I wish I'd thought about it that deeply. I [01:16:10] also like his line about, "Enough about this inner child, how about your outer adult?" Um- Yeah ... I think [01:16:15] that's a nice twist.

Jacob: God, there's so, there's so many.

Michael: There's so many. '

Jacob: Cause it- It's- You know, you know, like, how... Okay, [01:16:20] t- kind of to my point, like, how everyone just attributes so many quotes to Mark Twain even though- Yeah ... even though [01:16:25] they might not even, not even been Mark Twain. I hope, like, in 100 years people just attribute random stuff [01:16:30] to Bill Hicks, even if it wasn't Bill Hicks- Yeah

where it's just like, "Eh, that, that's close enough to Bill Hicks."

Michael: Yeah,

Jacob: yeah.

Michael: [01:16:35] I-

Jacob: He can, he can have that one.

Michael: I love that idea. Um, all right, let's move [01:16:40] on. Second to last category, cocktail, coffee, or cannabis? This is where we ask which one would we most wanna do [01:16:45] with our dead celebrity? Did you have a scene?

Jacob: Uh, yeah, definitely. Um, I mean, the [01:16:50] obvious one we've already talked about, where it's like you're, uh, we'll say cannabis, 'cause that's [01:16:55] the one that is in the category, but you're, you're tripping, you're whatever, you're on the campfire playing music, you're [01:17:00] hanging out, you're talking. Like, obviously everyone wants that experience- Yeah, yeah

with Bill Hicks, if you like [01:17:05] him. But I, I don't think that I would really get too much out of him that [01:17:10] I'm still curious about, because he put all that stuff out there, and I feel like I get that part of [01:17:15] him. So what I want is putting yourself in one of those [01:17:20] moments where he's just played, uh, what, the Comedy Pouch in, uh, [01:17:25] whatever, Little Rock, Arkansas.

Yeah, Possum

Michael: Ridge, Arkansas.

Jacob: Possum Ridge, Arkansas.

Michael: I think he had one called Adolf's Bunker in Idaho [01:17:30] or

Jacob: something. Yeah, yeah. All... He, he plays there to a room of 30 disinterested [01:17:35] people who, uh, the line, who, uh, stare at him like he's their dog- Their dog that's just [01:17:40] been shown tricks ... from the show. Uh, now, there was another one that like I feel like people said when I was young- Yeah

and I was like, "Oh, that's [01:17:45] Bill?" Yeah. "Oh, so that's a good one." Um, he does it. It's late at night, it's like [01:17:50] 2:00 AM, and he goes to the Texaco station to fill up his gas tank and drive [01:17:55] onto the next town, and he gets like a pot of the like burned, nasty [01:18:00] coffee that's been on since like 3:00 PM, and it's the worst cup of coffee in the [01:18:05] world, but he gets in the car and he drives on to the next place.

I wanna be in [01:18:10] that car with him because I think that there's something happening i- inside [01:18:15] of him that allows him to keep going even [01:18:20] though he, he played at an awful place, he played at an awful place two nights ago. [01:18:25] He has no success in America, and yet he drives to the next town and he does the set at the [01:18:30] next town.

I, I wanna talk to him and just get like, [01:18:35] "What... Like, why are you doing it? What's, what do you get out of this? Like, what are [01:18:40] you hoping to achieve?" Uh, he has a lot of it when he talks to his like tape recorder.

Archival: I [01:18:45] just needed to talk to somebody, and this tape recorder is all I've got right now. I [01:18:50] haven't been funny in a long time.

I haven't come up with new material in a [01:18:55] long time. And I'll tell you one thing, there's nothing scarier, especially for [01:19:00] me out here forsaking college, an easy life, coming out here. What happens [01:19:05] if I'm just not funny? I have nothing. I am a bum. I am gonna [01:19:10] work in Book City the rest of my life. I, I mean, I have nothing.[01:19:15]

to look for. I mean, it's ridiculous

Jacob: I, I think that there's something about [01:19:20] your life pursuits, whatever they may be, if you can find a [01:19:25] reason to, like, believe in them even when the whole world around you is not believing them and giving [01:19:30] you external validation that you should stop, you should quit, you should do something else.

And yet [01:19:35] there's something inside of him that compels him to keep going forward. And [01:19:40] I think that that's maybe an underappreciated, like, virtue of his, is, [01:19:45] like, this self-belief and self, um, sort of like energizing [01:19:50] aspect that he, um, carries with him literally until, like, his [01:19:55] dying days, you know? And so that's, that's what...

where the context I would [01:20:00] wanna hang out with Bill Hicks.

Michael: There's a guided by a mysterious force thing.

Jacob: Yeah, yeah, and who knows, maybe we see [01:20:05] a UFO on the highway. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just slip that in

Michael: there. Pull over for just a second. I mean- Is

Jacob: that a UFO? Yeah.

Michael: Yeah,

Jacob: [01:20:10] yeah.

Michael: Somewhere, somewhere between Austin and Roswell.

Jacob: Yeah, yeah. [01:20:15] So that's, that's really what I... And I, I think, like, too, uh, imagining those moments with, like, [01:20:20] friends, of the late night. It's, it's somewhere between night and morning. [01:20:25] You're in that twilight period, and something in the universe usually opens up. You [01:20:30] don't even need to be on any, like, drugs or psychedelics or anything.

It's just the world, [01:20:35] uh, is in this, in this mysterious somewhere else place, and you kind of s- Yeah, out of [01:20:40] time ... and you slip into it, and then you're kind of free in a weird way. And [01:20:45] then, uh, eventually the sun comes up and a new day starts, and I wanna hang out in that [01:20:50] space with Bill.

Michael: Me too. I... That, that- That's so much, uh, better [01:20:55] than anything I've got, Jacob.

And I hate to default to this, [01:21:00] but I'll give you mine.

Archival: Yeah.

Michael: I have a [01:21:05] real, um, attachment to my experiences in early sobriety. Mm-hmm. And part [01:21:10] because I had a- an awakening, and there is, [01:21:15] um, a phrase in, in the literature about, [01:21:20] um, if you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it.

Archival: Hmm.

Michael: I would [01:21:25] have liked to have been with Bill Hicks having a cup of [01:21:30] coffee in his first month of sobriety.

Archival: Mm-hmm.

Michael: [01:21:35] Uh, I think he came to recognize something that goes [01:21:40] beyond physical sobriety, that goes beyond abstinence. Mm-hmm. That's not about [01:21:45] the substances, but that is about a deeper spiritual pursuit that he [01:21:50] saw available to him. Mm-hmm. And I, I wanna see that [01:21:55] awakening in him. I think 1988 is the pivotal year in [01:22:00] his very brief story, and I, I think it's the year where [01:22:05] he, uh, he hits a, a bottom, uh, but then he comes to [01:22:10] believe in himself and sees the potential in [01:22:15] himself for who he could be and what he could be.

And I, uh, that, [01:22:20] that can be such an unbelievably exciting [01:22:25] phase for somebody. It was for me, and it was for all the other men [01:22:30] who I've seen go through that.

Jacob: Mm-hmm.

Michael: Um, I'd have liked to have rid- ridden [01:22:35] shotgun with that experience.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: I, I, I'd, I'd have liked to see the [01:22:40] optimism, the light return to his eyes, the...

And just the, [01:22:45] the sort of potential energy building up.

Jacob: Yeah. It's like it's [01:22:50] the growth, you know?

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. It's like, yeah. [01:22:55] I think we've arrived the last category, unless you wanted to say something else

Jacob: Just that, [01:23:00] uh, I've never been a smoker. I've smoked some cigarettes with friends who are smokers.

I would love to smoke a [01:23:05] cigarette with Bill.

Michael: Oh, my God, tell me about it. Tell me about it. So. [01:23:10] I love the bit he has about when he quit smoking and how good every cigarette [01:23:15] looks. It's probably a little lewd, but, um- ... I totally, another way in [01:23:20] which I relate to the man. Um-

Jacob: The, yeah, the, one of... Actually, and I won't say who the other [01:23:25] person is, but there's, there's one other celebrity who I'd w- like to smoke a cigarette [01:23:30] with as much as Bill Hicks.

Yeah. Um, mystery- Let's leave that- Mystery for another time.

Michael: [01:23:35] Yeah, all

Jacob: right. But just, there's some- it just seems-

Michael: He's, he's the kind of smoker you wanna smoke with. [01:23:40] Yeah. Yeah.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Anyways. Um-

Jacob: Yeah

Michael: All right. Last category, [01:23:45] uh, case for the upward staircase. In this category, uh, we're gonna look at this life and [01:23:50] make the case for a legacy, meaning validation, impact, and to some extent, [01:23:55] desirability, um, where maybe, maybe we hadn't seen that [01:24:00] before.

Jacob: I've got three things I wanna say about this. Okay. And, and I've been thinking about, so there's [01:24:05] one that's kind of pithy, uh, but I, I think it's worthwhile and meaningful. Another one that's, uh, [01:24:10] more contemporary, and then one that's kind of like a summation.

Friend: Okay.

Jacob: So the first one is, I [01:24:15] was thinking about who was big at the time, and, uh, Jerry Seinfeld.

And like if Jerry Seinfeld was The [01:24:20] Beatles- Like unquestionably famous, influenced a generation of people. Bill Hicks was the Velvet [01:24:25] Underground, right? And, uh, there's the, the famous joke of, you know, only 100 [01:24:30] people bought the Velvet Underground's album, but all of them went on to make their own [01:24:35] careers.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like- Yeah ... he, he, despite it all, he is the, [01:24:40] uh, the like, the true artist that other artists, uh, [01:24:45] you know, see and they respect

Michael: and- Measure themselves against to some extent.

Jacob: Anyways, so [01:24:50] that's legacy. Yeah. Right? Um, and then, uh, the other thing, this one's actually more [01:24:55] serious. I was thinking about why it is that young men love Bill Hicks so much.

Oh,

Michael: okay.

Jacob: You know what I mean? Interesting,

Michael: [01:25:00] yeah.

Jacob: And I was thinking about how, um, who do... Like, we're in this midst of the crisis of the [01:25:05] alt-right and the, the groypers, and all these words you probably don't even know about. But all [01:25:10] these online people, 4chan and 8chan and- Yeah ... and all these, these lost [01:25:15] boys.

That, that's, uh, that's... You probably read and seen some articles about that. Sure,

Michael: yeah. That, that- Yeah, there's a lot of [01:25:20] stuff out there these days

Jacob: about it ... the, the radicalized right-ward angry [01:25:25] misogynistic young men on the internet, you know? It's, it's a pretty bad problem, and no one [01:25:30] knows what to do about it.

Yeah. I was thinking about why they, they're gravitating towards these figures like, uh, Nick [01:25:35] Fuentes and Clavicular and all these people on the internet who are just awful, just the [01:25:40] worst people in the world, and the, it's because they sometimes are funny. They'll tell a funny [01:25:45] joke. And like, uh-

Michael: They're transgr- uh, you know, transgressive

Jacob: they're transgressive to a point of, like, [01:25:50] real, real vitriol. Like you- Yeah ... you, you think that Bill Hicks is bad. He's nothing [01:25:55] against Nick Fuentes.

Michael: Right.

Jacob: And all these young boys are attracted to it. And I was thinking about how Bill [01:26:00] Hicks, like, at the end of the day, he could speak to this angst of young men and [01:26:05] boys and teens and all this stuff.

Yeah. And, and all... I- there was this whole generation, I mean, we're sitting [01:26:10] here, but like, who kind of see Bill as this messiah or prophet or even just, like, a funny, cool [01:26:15] guy who you look up to. And at first, you might be attracted to him for his, [01:26:20] like, extreme edge and his hatred and his misanthropy and all this [01:26:25] stuff.

His

Michael: rage, his caustic nature, whatever it may be.

Jacob: Yeah, all of that stuff.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: But then, like-

Michael: [01:26:30] Perversions even ...

Jacob: you- Yeah. But yes. And that, but the funny thing is it's an inversion of, like, now [01:26:35] it's that, that people, you dig down, and that's who they are in their soul. But him, he just [01:26:40] did that as kinda like the, the like-

Michael: Entry point

Jacob: exactly, to be like, "Yeah, I'm, I'm, like, cool. I'm, [01:26:45] I'm raging. I'm, like, punk rock. I'm, I'm metal," whatever. And then you dig deeper, and he's, like, a [01:26:50] soft romantic. You know, like, to your point, you know what I mean? It's like he- There's

Michael: a big [01:26:55] heart- Yeah ... that loves humanity-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: at the center of all of this.

Jacob: Exactly. And so-

Michael: And, and if you dig [01:27:00] deep enough, he shows you that.

Jacob: Uh, yeah. I mean, he has the joke about, like-

Friend: There's a new party being born, the [01:27:05] People Who Hate People Party. People who hate people, come together. [01:27:10] No.

We're kinda having trouble [01:27:15] getting off the boards, but, you know. "Are you gonna be there?" "Yeah." "Then I ain't [01:27:20] coming." "You're our strongest member." "you." "That's [01:27:25] what I'm talking about." "You asshole." "off." "Damn, we almost had a [01:27:30] meeting going." So hard to get my people together [01:27:35]

Jacob: He's gathering all these people who feel this sort of like, uh, this like [01:27:40] suburban angst and like nameless rage.

And then like he- Isolation ... brings [01:27:45] them in. Isolation, yeah. Brings them in, and then like you dig deeper, and you're like, "Oh, no, this [01:27:50] actually... He's, he's like actually just trying to like help people." And you know like- Yeah ... you know what I mean? Like that's- Yeah ... [01:27:55] where his anger stems, is that like there's this emptiness in life and culture.

[01:28:00] Yeah. Um, and so I was thinking about why is it that we don't have anyone who can speak to that right now? And, [01:28:05] and this speaks to the legacy of like where would Bill be right now. I wish that we had a Bill Hicks [01:28:10] figure who could take all of these orphaned, uh, you know, young men from the internet [01:28:15] and say something real to them, and something extreme and crazy and [01:28:20] edgy.

Because like you kinda have to get both of those things together to like break through [01:28:25] sometimes. So yeah. I've been thinking about this a lot, 'cause I, uh, like I, I [01:28:30] get so- Bill

Michael: Hicks makes you think

Jacob: Well, and-

Michael: But, but so does the crisis of

Jacob: young men, yeah ... but you, but you spend so [01:28:35] much time on the internet, and you look around, and you're like, "This is, this is awful," you know?

Like, [01:28:40] it's terrible. And, um, Bill would've said the same thing, you know? But he at [01:28:45] least had some like answers and solutions and was like preaching to this [01:28:50] like, uh, you know, like awful, terrible , you know, mass of people- Yeah, these, for these

Michael: [01:28:55] forces, yeah ...

Jacob: to try to like improve things.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: So.

Michael: I don't think I have [01:29:00] anything to add, Jacob.

I'm sort of speechless. I have to say, um-

Jacob: Well, I did [01:29:05] wanna, I wanted to revisit something you said- Okay ... earlier. You hinted at it. And I, I was thinking how cool it [01:29:10] is that if you take Bill's life story, but you don't put the dates and you p- don't put [01:29:15] ages, that it's actually like a really nice complete life.

Like, okay, [01:29:20] he, uh, found friends and success in high school through his comedy. Um, [01:29:25] became a, a big fish in a small, uh, pond. Moved to the big city [01:29:30] of LA. Uh, rejected that to go find his own voice. Got deep [01:29:35] into drugs and alcohol and burnout. Reset his own life. Came back stronger [01:29:40] and smarter. Became a better artist with a bigger audience abroad and at [01:29:45] home.

Hitting his stride. Having a health crisis, and instead of giving up, [01:29:50] going harder, you know? And then, uh, at the end of the day, [01:29:55] being surrounded in a private and respectable way with the people you choose and [01:30:00] love to be around. And then live on for decades as a legend, [01:30:05] um, who exited at the peak of your career, have several posthumous [01:30:10] albums be revered as instant classics.

To this day, still ranked top 10 greatest [01:30:15] comedians of all time, and he was 32 [01:30:20]

Michael: Jesus. It's really good. [01:30:25] Right? But that's not the case for The Upward Staircase.

Jacob: That's what you want in a life.

Michael: It is what I want in a life. And maybe- Other, other

Jacob: [01:30:30] than 32.

Michael: And it's, other than 32, but it's not about duration. Life is [01:30:35] not about- Yeah

how many years we get. Yeah. Life is about how many moments we create- Yeah ... and how mu- many [01:30:40] moments we get to participate in. And the- And those can be condensed.

Jacob: Exactly, and the, and the, the journey, you see the [01:30:45] ups, the downs, you learn from things, you improve, you're, you're, it's, it's just, it's all [01:30:50] right there, you know?

Michael: I began the conversation by talking a little bit about- [01:30:55] Surprised to discover [01:31:00] grief, like a lot.

Jacob: Mm-hmm.

Michael: And it's very [01:31:05] inspiring to me to hear you talk about Bill Hicks this way, and that you [01:31:10] found him too. Yeah. I, I, you know, I've, I've had [01:31:15] dreams where Bill Hicks has appeared. No bullshit. Um, I had [01:31:20] one...

Actually, I remember one when I was, um, about to become a father. Whoa. [01:31:25] And, um, I, uh, I had this dream where I was standing in a field with [01:31:30] Bill Hicks, and at the end of the dream he reaches out and touches his hands across my heart, [01:31:35] and I woke up and there was a cat walking across my chest. [01:31:40]

Jacob: That's perfect.

Michael: Um, I, you know, I don't know [01:31:45] if we've made any Bill Hicks converts as a result of this conversation. [01:31:50] Maybe. Um, I'm not sure that's the point. I, I think that maybe a bigger [01:31:55] point for me, and maybe the thing that for me really is the case for the upwards staircase, despite the... [01:32:00] I mean, yes, it's the legacy, it's the impact on humor, it's what it would, you know, he represents [01:32:05] for, you know, young men and how we might think about that today.

I think that's a really, really eloquent [01:32:10] point. I think even more than that, I feel like the, the bigger message, [01:32:15] or a potentially bigger message that I wanna continue to develop is what is [01:32:20] a very close and healthy parasocial relationship? Yeah. You know? I, I, [01:32:25] 'cause I, the man is definitely not perfect- No

and I hold him in extremely high regard. [01:32:30] But I, you know... The most dangerous [01:32:35] story for me is that I missed it, is that I missed the party, and part of, I think, [01:32:40] my frustration is that I didn't discover him until after he was dead. [01:32:45] Yeah.

I, I need to be [01:32:50] reminded I haven't missed anything. I am exactly in the time and [01:32:55] place I'm supposed to be. Um, you know, one day at a time. So I, uh, [01:33:00] maybe we leave it there

Archival: I feel like crying. [01:33:05] How can I let you go? [01:33:10] Is our love dying?[01:33:15]

Have our hearts grown cold? Aren't [01:33:20] you[01:33:25]

sorry that we are through? Do you miss me[01:33:30]

Like I miss you [01:33:35] and I know I know we tried[01:33:40] [01:33:45] [01:33:50]

Friend: Question authority, always [01:33:55] question authority, and demand the truth. [01:34:00] It's been great talking with you, and I'm gonna stay here as long as there's callers. [01:34:05] We have Kevin and David coming up, and we got more shows from Sacred Cow Productions, [01:34:10] and Jack is gonna be with you all night long It's all [01:34:15] right, really.

You know what? Hell ain't so bad when you got nice people calling you. Let's [01:34:20] not get too cocky. I mean, I don't know what eternity's like, but, uh, it's hotter than hell. It is [01:34:25] actually hellish. I guess we're in hell's basement. We have another caller, Jack?

Archival: [01:34:30] I think we do. I think we do.

Friend: I think we do. I think we do.

Let's take it. Hello. Thanks for calling hell. You're [01:34:35] on the air[01:34:40] [01:34:45]

Michael: Speed round. Plugs for past shows. Uh, if people [01:34:50] like the Bill Hicks episode, what might they like from the back catalog? There's- I was ...

Jacob: Oh, sorry.

Michael: [01:34:55] No, you go first. I was- There's one obvious pick to me, but I'm curious to

Jacob: know- Really? No, what's your obvious pick?

Michael: Oh, I would've gone George Carlin. [01:35:00]

Jacob: Oh, okay.

Michael: Yeah.

Sure. I think that, I think that ... I, I, w- who I had a different relationship with, I did [01:35:05] not know before, uh, getting into them. I knew, I knew who he was-

Jacob: Sure ...

Michael: but I didn't [01:35:10] understand his impact the same way. Episode 92, Acerbic Comedian. I think it's a great episode.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: [01:35:15] So.

Jacob: And, and a, a great comedian as well, um, in his own way.

I was thinking of [01:35:20] John Prine.

Michael: Oh.

Jacob: In a yin and yang fashion, where John Prine, I know the dates kind of [01:35:25] cross over, but John Prine basically didn't find any sort of success until he was about 32.

Michael: Yeah. [01:35:30]

Jacob: So talking about having a whole entire first half of your life [01:35:35] be different than the second half, finding yourself right at the moment, essentially, give or [01:35:40] take, when Bill passed away, it's this really interesting thing that they both go on [01:35:45] self, uh, actualization journeys, John Prine overcoming a really serious [01:35:50] disease and overcoming it, and then reemerging, you know?

Like, there's so many [01:35:55] beautiful parallels, and at the end of the day they're just kinda like guys.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: You know what I mean? You can see yourself [01:36:00] in them as just a guy who wants to do the thing that they love to do. And so [01:36:05] John Prine.

Michael: Episode 19, Singing Mailman. John Prine, one of the best from the [01:36:10] deep, from deep in the catalog.

Great plug. Okay. Here is a little preview for the next [01:36:15] episode of Famous and Gravy. She became the first woman to host her own syndicated television series. [01:36:20] A decade later, she had an hour-long variety show on a major network. [01:36:25] And finally, Famous and Gravy listeners, we love hearing from you. If you wanna reach out with a comment, a question, or to [01:36:30] participate in our opening quiz, please email us at hello@famousandgravy.com.

In our show [01:36:35] notes we will include all kinds of links, especially this one, including to our website, our social [01:36:40] channels, and our Substack. Famous and Gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me, Michael [01:36:45] Osborne. This episode was produced by Jacob Weiss. Thank you, Jacob Weiss, for sitting in on it. [01:36:50] Original music by Kevin Strang.

See you next [01:36:55] [01:37:00] [01:37:05] time.

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