135 Intuitive Dreamcatcher (David Lynch)

TRANSCRIPT

Jacob: [00:00:00] This is Famous and Gravy: Biographies from a Different Point of View. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. [00:00:10] Now here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2025, age 78. He had a longtime devotion to the [00:00:20] technique of transcendental meditation.

Friend: Would- That's not a helpful clue.

Mm. Alec Guinness?

Michael: Not Alec Guinness. George Lucas wanted [00:00:30] him to direct Return of the Jedi.

Friend: David Lean.

Michael: David Lean? Not David Lean.

Friend: He's a director. I ...

Michael: director.

Friend: He directed Lawrence of Arabia.

Michael: Oh.

Archival: I ... Martin Scorsese. [00:00:40]

Friend: Bye. Um-

Michael: Scorsese's Jedi would've been a great movie. He dropped out of art school in 1967, but he remained in Philadelphia [00:00:50] for another three years, painting and making short films.

Friend: Rob Reiner?

Michael: Not Rob Reiner. Good guess. Oh. Not Rob Reiner.

Friend: You know the name that... Oh, God. Mike [00:01:00] Nichols?

Michael: Not Mike Nichols. Great guess. Like Frank Capra and Franz Kafka, two artists whose work this person much admired and might [00:01:10] be said to have synthesized, his name became an adjective.

Friend: How can I not know this?

If his name became an adjective, it's, like, obviously a [00:01:20] household w- word. This one's

Archival: not coming to me.

Michael: He had a florid style and an unnerving perspective. He created the network TV series [00:01:30] Twin Peaks, broadcast in 90... in '91 and '90, and widely acknowledged masterpiece Mulholland Drive in 2001.

Friend: Uh, is it David Lynch?

Oh, [00:01:40] David Lynch.

Michael: Today's dead celebrity is David Lynch.

Friend: You could've given me, "He gives the weather forecast on KCRW." He does that.

Archival: Good morning. It's [00:01:50] July

8, 2022, and if you [00:02:00] can believe it. Today I was thinking about Gene Vincent and the song [00:02:10] Be-Bop-a-Lula from the year 1956. Once again, we're going to be enjoying [00:02:20] those beautiful blue skies and golden sunshine all along the way. Everyone, [00:02:30] have a great day.

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

Jacob: And my name is Jacob Weiss. [00:02:40]

Michael: And on this show, we choose a famous figure who died, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What could we not see [00:02:50] clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves?

Today, David Lynch died 2025, age 78. [00:03:00] All right, so today I am thrilled to be joined by Jacob Weis. If there is one person who has shaped Famous and Gravy behind the scenes, it's Jacob. Uh, most people aren't [00:03:10] gonna know that. But you started editing the show, like, around the... Was it Alex Trebek? Neil Armstrong?

Jacob: It was... I think it was the one before Neil Armstrong.

Michael: Was it Diego Maradona?

Jacob: I [00:03:20] definitely did Diego.

Michael: Okay.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: It was around like-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: okay, so-

Jacob: Yeah, it was- ... somewhere ... and I've probably listened to just about every episode.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: Except famously, not the [00:03:30] first one still. You

Michael: really should check out- ... the first episode.

It's worth a listen. But, so I mean, you've been with us for, whatever, over 100 episodes. Well over 100 [00:03:40] episodes, and I, you know... I mean, just to lead off with a compliment, you helped give the show voice, and you've absolutely helped me understand what works and what [00:03:50] doesn't. Mm. Um, and so forever I've wanted you to sit in the co-host seat.

Thank you for making time for that. And I think, you know, as also part of the behind the scenes is, like, you and I have had a lot of [00:04:00] conversations about pop culture. Like, every time I'm working on an episode-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: you know, you'll have a documentary I should check out- Yeah ... or a book, like you... Or you won't know who somebody is.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: And I can't [00:04:10] wait to introduce them.

Jacob: Yeah. Uh- I think that's been interesting that we're very... I, I say we're, we're pretty close in age, but you're trending Gen X, and I'm trending Millennial.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And [00:04:20] so our, our... It's interesting. Sometimes we're, like, in sync of like, "Oh, we both really like, um, Christopher Guest."

Michael: Right.

Jacob: But then you're [00:04:30] telling me about, uh, that one guy. Oh,

Michael: I was telling you about, um, oh, Defending Your Life, Albert Brooks- Yeah ... the other day. And I,

Jacob: and I said, "Who's that?" And

Michael: you had no idea. And you said...

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: I, I've always admired your taste, [00:04:40] and I really enjoy when you and I get to talking about him.

And sometimes I wish we had recorded those conversations. Yeah. And so when I asked you to come on the show, [00:04:50] you know, we've floated a few names, but recently you had a conversation with somebody who said, "I can't believe it's been a year since David Lynch died."

Jacob: Yeah, just a friend of mine offhanded [00:05:00] just kinda said like, "Oh, man, RIP David Lynch.

Been a year." And we had that kind of shared, you know, like, um, loss of like, wow, it, [00:05:10] it hasn't felt like it's been a year.

Michael: Mm.

Jacob: And it's, it was a, a big absence all of a sudden, you know? And I, I think the fact that, like, someone can [00:05:20] unprompted say like, "I miss this person"-

Michael: Yeah ...

Jacob: uh, kind of speaks to their cultural relevance.

Mm-hmm. And, and then I immediately texted him and like, "It's been a year." Yeah. "It's time for, it's time for David Lynch."

Michael: Yeah. "

Jacob: He's [00:05:30] gonna do it."

Michael: Well, okay, okay. So I, and, you know, without stepping on future categories, I am curious- Where you started. Yeah. Like, when- Oh, yeah ... [00:05:40] how did you first become aware of David Lynch?

Jacob: Yeah. So a little, um, about me is I went to film school, and also discovered, [00:05:50] like, music and movies like most teens do. And especially, like, living in the age of the internet, as soon as you find something that's kind of weird, then you, like, pull on that thread so [00:06:00] fast. And with the internet you can just be like, "Okay, I learned about Tarantino," but then within two weeks I'm already at, like, Japanese, like, gore films.

Yeah. You know? Like- Yeah, yeah, kung fu. Yeah ... [00:06:10] so, 'cause you're, 'cause you're, like, 17 and you're like, "Ah." And then everyone's like, "Oh, David Lynch obviously." Yeah. So Eraserhead, that's kind of- Was

Michael: that the first one you saw? Okay.

Jacob: And Mulholland [00:06:20] Drive. Yeah. Like, pretty much, 'cause that's, like, what people recommend.

Yeah. You know?

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: Uh, and, uh, I really liked Eraserhead. Um, I didn't quite understand [00:06:30] Mulholland Drive.

Friend: Hmm.

Jacob: And there's this... There's, there's actually, like, a term that I, I like to prescribe to people like David Lynch where it's like, um, art that is like [00:06:40] sandpaper.

Archival: Hmm.

Jacob: Where you watch it, and you might not like it, but then maybe like a day, two days, a week later, it's still, like, rubbing on [00:06:50] you.

Yeah. And you're like, you're like, "I, I don't..." You know? Like- Yeah, yeah. ... "Why, why am I still thinking about this?" It should have healed

Michael: by

Jacob: now. Yeah. I don't know why it's still, like... It, it's kinda like... And then you go [00:07:00] back to it, and you're like, "What was it that kind of, like, rubbed me this way?" Yeah. And then you watch it again, and you understand a little more and a little more.

And so it might have been, like, the first [00:07:10] movie that really I, I kind of loved and hated at the same time that-

Michael: Eraserhead? Or Mulholland

Jacob: Drive? Mulholland Drive. Yeah. Okay. 'Cause it doesn't make any sense the first time.

Michael: Right.

Jacob: You know? [00:07:20] And when you're young, movies are like, you know, E.T. Yeah,

Michael: yeah,

Jacob: yeah. You know?

Like- Yeah, yeah. They're supposed to

Michael: entertain ...

Jacob: The Terminator 2. Right. And you're like, "That was awesome," but [00:07:30] not this. Right. So I'd, I'd say Lynch is maybe one of the first directors that kind of made me understand that movies can be more, you know? Yeah. They can leave [00:07:40] you wondering. Yeah. You know? Uh,

Michael: I mean, one more question before we get into the- Yeah

into the categories. I mean, was there... Tell me a little bit about your research journey preparing for this. Did [00:07:50] you move much from- Yeah ... where you were? 'Cause when you p- pit- Yeah ... pitched him as an idea, it was clear, like- ... you had opinions and you loved him. Yeah. You know? And I'm kinda curious- [00:08:00] Yeah ... uh, what the journey's been.

Jacob: I just listened to a lot of him talking. Mm-hmm. Because he famously hates interviews. Yeah. And so I really wanted to, like, listen to him talk because he's, [00:08:10] like, really cagey and really vague, and he hates to answer questions. And so I was trying to, like, figure out what's really going on with him.

Michael: Okay.

Jacob: I didn't read anything.[00:08:20]

Michael: Okay. No, that's okay. I,

Jacob: I- Because- Yeah ... famously David Lynch does not like reading.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: I- And he does not like writing.

Michael: I actually didn't know that.

Jacob: He [00:08:30] hates it.

Michael: He hates reading?

Jacob: And writing. Yeah.

Michael: I had no idea.

Jacob: There's a, there's a, a... One of the phrases later, I'll, I'll just reveal it now. He says- How did

Michael: you, how did you learn this if you didn't read anything?[00:08:40]

Jacob: He talks. He talks.

Michael: I've never heard him say- He talks ... "I hate reading."

Jacob: Yeah. He says, "The only thing that writing is good for is to remember ideas." So it's like-

Michael: There's a truth to that. [00:08:50]

Jacob: Yeah. Yeah, but, like, he'll, he'll write it down and then be like, "Okay, now I just don't forget it." You know? Yeah. Like, I'm not gonna write a novel or anything.

It's just like, it's like little clues. Might

Michael: write a [00:09:00] movie. Wow, I, uh-

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Okay. But, but in j- I guess what I was really asking about was the emotional journey.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: If you had one that- I...

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: did it, did it endear you [00:09:10] more to him, or did it change, or is it a lateral move a- at all as a r- I- ... result of- Honestly

having listened to him a lot?

Jacob: Yeah. H- honestly, um, I think, [00:09:20] funny enough, I, the more I learned, the more I kind of questioned and maybe even disliked a little bit about him as a person.

Michael: Interesting.

Jacob: But I still love him [00:09:30] as an artist and, uh, really respect him, and I, I still am really glad that we're gonna do this episode.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: But he's, um, he's a complicated [00:09:40] man.

Michael: He is.

Jacob: You know? Um, as a person.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And as an artist.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And as a painter, and as a

Michael: whatever he is. Well, I think we'll, we'll, we'll have- Yeah ... to see what the obituary says. I think that's a good segue. Exactly. [00:09:50] All right. Yeah. Well, let's get into it. Let's

Jacob: do it.

Michael: Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. David Lynch, a painter turned avant-garde filmmaker whose [00:10:00] fame, influence, and distinctively skewed worldview extended far beyond the movie screen to encompass television, records, books, nightclubs, [00:10:10] a line of organic coffee, and his Foundation for Consciousness-based Education and World Peace, has died.

He was 78. [00:10:20] Holy cow.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Holy cow, what a, what a, what a first line sentence.

Jacob: It feels like it's just a bullet point list, you know, of things. Like, there's not really a lot of [00:10:30] artistry to the sentence.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: It feels like they just started and then they just said, like, "And this and this and this and this and this and this."

But that's kind of him. You know, where he [00:10:40] would do something for a little while and then drop it, and then do something else for a little while and drop it. Like, everyone thinks of him as a director, but he only made what, like seven movies- Yeah, that's not- ... in his [00:10:50] lifetime

Michael: I mean, TV of course, you know, Twin Peaks.

But, but even that wasn't a very long run, right?

Jacob: I mean, do you know how many episodes he directed of Twin Peaks?

Michael: It's very few, right?

Jacob: Six.

Michael: [00:11:00] Is that all?

Jacob: Yeah. Out of 30.

Michael: You're right.

Jacob: Okay. If you don't, if you don't count the, the return.

Michael: The...

Jacob: Yeah,

Michael: yeah,

Jacob: yeah, yeah. Almost none. Yeah. I mean, like, 20%, nothing. [00:11:10] So I like that it, it paints this big, like, "Oh yeah, this guy was, like, larger than life.

He did everything," you know? Yeah. I like that about it. [00:11:20] Um, I really love that it says, "David Lynch, a painter."

Michael: It's interesting that that's how they led, '

Jacob: cause that's- But that's how he saw himself ... that's

Michael: how he, uh, saw himself. And- He led with pa- like, he [00:11:30] was a painter, and he got interested in moving paintings.

Yep, yep. Which is what led him into film. Yeah. Yeah.

Jacob: Yeah, so I, I think that was nice. Um, I know that this category is usually about, what does the [00:11:40] world know him for, and it's probably not being a painter.

Michael: Well, that's my reaction. There is not a single property in here.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: It does not call out Blue Velvet, [00:11:50] Elephant Man, Mulholland Drive, Twin Peaks.

Twin Peaks. Nothing.

Jacob: It doesn't even say Academy Award nominated.

Michael: That is my- Which- This is my number one- ... f- uh, gripe with this, is that- What's funny is [00:12:00] that I've really evolved on how I approach this category. Yeah. 'Cause early on I used to say, "Well, yeah, it tells you what you know him for, but it misses all this other stuff."[00:12:10]

Yeah. And now I've come to understand the first line of the obituary as a news headline. Yeah. You know, you remember this person for these things. Yeah. And this is not- ... [00:12:20] really what we remember him for. I do think avant-garde is good. I think that... I, I feel like I could be wrong, but I think I learned the word or the phrase-

avant-garde-

Jacob: Because [00:12:30] of David

Michael: Lynch ... because of David Lynch. Yeah. And I, and I felt like they should have.

Jacob: I am a little sad that Twin Peaks is not in here, just because that's so, like-

Michael: Durnable? [00:12:40] It's so important?

Jacob: Iconic.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: It is iconic. Totally. And, like, and to be the guy who makes, like, arguably the TV show, you know, like-

Michael: Right

Jacob: [00:12:50] the number one TV show, some would say, like- Yeah ... and just kind of, eh, whatever. We'll get to it maybe in the third line.

Michael: Right.

Jacob: It's kinda weird. But, um, I, but I, I... Okay, [00:13:00] but at the same time, the fact that they highlighted the consciousness-based education and world peace- Yeah, yeah ... is,

Michael: like- Which is all capitalized.

Yeah. It has... That's just so it's a foundation for [00:13:10] consciousness-based education- Yeah ... and world peace.

Jacob: But, like, yeah, I mean, I think if you, uh, if you were to, again, try to hook someone into being, like- [00:13:20] What's this guy all about?

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: If you just said, "Oh, he did movies and TV," like, eh. But this is like, "What is this guy?"

Uh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like- So I,

Michael: I [00:13:30] agree with that. I think that there is a-

Jacob: It's perplexing ...

Michael: it, it, it is hooky that way- Yeah ... to use your word. It, like, makes me want to know more.

Jacob: Yeah. Um- Or- Or even, like, I read this and, uh, I [00:13:40] imagine I, I didn't know who David Lynch was.

Michael: Right.

Jacob: I would honestly maybe think like, "Is this a joke?"

Yeah. Yeah. Like this, like a, the coffee guy who was making [00:13:50] nightclubs, uh, for world peace?

Michael: Kinda. I mean, we don't know him for these things that much, right? Yeah. We- Yeah ... but, but if you're a fan, you do. This felt a little bit like [00:14:00] it skewed towards-

Jacob: Inside, inside baseball ... yeah.

Michael: Yeah. Skewed towards a fan, uh, a fan writing it.

Yeah. I'll, I have one other gripe here, 'cause I wanna stick with my gripes. I kind [00:14:10] of know what they mean by distinctly skewed worldview

Jacob: Okay, and I, I wrote this down. Only thing I really dislike [00:14:20] is distinctly, distinctively skewed worldview. Yes. I don't- Okay ... I don't think that's the way to put it, but I know what they mean.

'Cause you watch something like Blue Velvet, and you're like, "Who's this [00:14:30] Frank Booth? What's going on? What a weirdo made this movie?"

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: But that's not his worldview. That's him saying, like, "There's evil [00:14:40] in the world, but we're rooting for the good guys" , you know what I mean? Yeah. So his worldview is, like, there exists evil or [00:14:50] bizarre things, but he's not endorsing it.

And- He,

Michael: I, I mean, a more accurate sentence would have been distinctly skewed presentation of the world or something. Yes.

Jacob: There, [00:15:00] there we go.

Michael: Right? Yep. Yes To say it's a worldview, uh, um, makes it his perspective- Yeah ... and, and as if he has some argument, and I'm not sure that's true.

Jacob: I think he's a very simple man, [00:15:10] you know?

Mm-hmm. He, he's a, he's a romantic. He loves people and art and coffee and cigarettes- Yeah ... and burgers- Yeah ... and [00:15:20] milkshakes. Yeah. He's just a, he's just a very regular... And p- that's what, uh, in the research, and I tried to, like, see what other people said about him.

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Jacob: And they're like, "Yeah, he's just, like, a [00:15:30] normal guy.

He's, like, bizarrely normal." Uh, yeah. You know? Like,

Michael: he's- Disarmingly normal- Disar- ... especially for, like, Hollywood. Yes I mean, people would remark on, uh, meeting him and, and having this, like, [00:15:40] uh- Yeah ... there, there was no pretension. No. It was, it was, it was- Yeah ... very simple and-

Jacob: Exactly, yeah ...

Michael: and, and measured.

Jacob: So- Yeah

that, again, that's the one thing that I really think is wrong about [00:15:50] this. Mm-hmm. Everything else is maybe, like, qualms. Well, there's one more thing I wanted to say. Oh,

Michael: okay.

Jacob: And this, uh, and again, I know he passed away suddenly.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: So this was on a [00:16:00] deadline. They couldn't have thought it. But

Michael: he was a heavy smoker.

I mean, and

Jacob: he was 78. He had em- emphysema. Yeah. Famously, he had to stop making movies- I s- ... because he was so [00:16:10] debilitated. He'd say- Right ... he'd, he'd lose his breath walking across the room.

Michael: Right.

Jacob: But I think it's really important that he died almost in a mythical way.

Michael: Hm.

Jacob: A [00:16:20] man who fell in love with Hollywood dies when Los Angeles catches on fire.

Michael: It was during the LA fires.

Jacob: Yes.

Michael: Of course.

Jacob: He didn't die, like, [00:16:30] because of them, but he had to move. He had to evacuate. He moved to his daughter's house. That's right. That's right. And because of the stress of moving, his p- he got worse- I couldn't handle it ... and died.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: So, like, he's, his [00:16:40] whole f- his whole career is very obsessed with smoke.

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Jacob: Very obsessed with fire. Lifelong smoker dies of fire.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: It's, [00:16:50] it's so eerie and perfect and almost dreamlike

Michael: Yeah ...

Jacob: that I, I think they missed, uh, an alley-oop. You know what I mean? [00:17:00] Yeah. Where... And I think it, like, timestamps it, right? That, like, dying as the world is kind of, like, changing, he's been this sort of, like, force.

We're, we're [00:17:10] entering a new era, and he's gone, so.

Michael: They... You're so right about that. I- There was an opportunity-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: to just sort of- Like- ... slip something in about the [00:17:20] nature-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: of, of the circumstances and the, and the- S- ... hidden poetry of

Jacob: it ... especially because so many times people will say, "He died in Los Angeles," "He died in New York."

Right. Or, or, "He died [00:17:30] of cancer," "He died of" whatever.

Michael: They just say, "Has died." Eh, you should- He- ... have done that. Yeah ... he

Jacob: deserved some poetry.

Michael: Well, especially for an author who I do think is skewing [00:17:40] towards fan. Yeah. Yeah, right? Exactly. The fact that they, they didn't point to any properties- Yeah ... and is, a- a- and are instead trying to paint a picture of an artist-

Jacob: Yeah

Michael: you know, suggests that [00:17:50] they understood something. And I do think that a lot in here would suggest that, but yeah, they really missed something there.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Okay. So- So where are you at?

Jacob: I, I [00:18:00] originally said eight to be nice-

Michael: Okay ...

Jacob: because it was on a deadline. David Lynch is a very positive guy. I don't wanna be critical.

But I'm feeling more like it's a, it's a solid [00:18:10] seven.

Michael: Okay.

Jacob: I can live with a seven.

Michael: I went six.

Jacob: Okay.

Michael: I went a little- That's fine ... low. I think, I think that they did drop the ball on the main thing they're supposed to do. You know him for this [00:18:20] thing. Sure. I do think that's hard with him.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: But I do think Twin Peaks is important enough in the history- Mm-hmm

of television- Yeah ... that you probably should have mentioned that one a- [00:18:30] and probably Eraserhead. There is, you know, maybe the most important cult classic of all time.

Jacob: The midnight movie.

Michael: The midnight movie. Yeah. Exactly. So- The

Jacob: TV show, [00:18:40] the midnight movie.

Michael: So I think I was at a kinda seven before.

Jacob: I think it's fair.

Michael: That's fair.

Jacob: Six, seven.

Michael: All right. Six, seven. Oh, God. All right. [00:18:50] Uh, category two, five things I love about you. Here, Jacob and I will develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived. So many places to go [00:19:00] here. I'm gonna let you lead. Okay. I think you've got a lot.

What do you got for number one, Jacob?

Jacob: My first one is, um, I'm gonna call art vector. Mm. And I'm gonna explain what I mean [00:19:10] by that.

Michael: Okay.

Jacob: Uh, so if you listen to him or read him at all, David Lynch, uh, is, you know, famously seen, love him or hate him, as, [00:19:20] like, a very creative, very bizarre, very out there, almost, like, genius, you know?

Yeah. And I think a lot of the people, uh, who analyze his work try and paint him [00:19:30] as, like, he's weaving all these metaphors, and he's doing all this stuff. And there's 10 different layers, and you can never understand what he's doing. But if you listen to him talk...

Archival: [00:19:40] Ideas ah, come to us. We don't, um, really create an idea.

We just catch them, like fish. Um, no [00:19:50] chef ever takes credit, ah, for making the fish. It's just preparing the fish In an instant you know the [00:20:00] idea. In an instant. Then the thing is translating that to some medium. It could be a film idea or a painting idea or a furniture idea. It doesn't [00:20:10] matter. It wants to be something.

It's a seed for something. So the whole thing is translating that idea to a medium.

Jacob: The way that he [00:20:20] approaches art is, like, very welcoming. You know? It's, it's not that I, I'm gonna put in my 10,000 hours and I'm gonna be a master painter. Like, no, I, [00:20:30] I, this is my fourth painting. It, I had fun doing it. Yeah.

You know? Like, it, uh, this is my first movie. Famously, uh, he wanted to [00:20:40] make a moving painting. Mm-hmm. And he didn't have any money, and so he went around and said, "I need to buy a 16 millimeter film camera." He didn't know what that was. Right. And he found- he just bought [00:20:50] the cheapest one. He didn't even realize that he bought a picture camera, not a movie camera.

Yeah. And so his very first movie was him just taking [00:21:00] pictures, like, a, you know, like stop motion. Like stop motion, yeah, yeah.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And so, like, but... And then here we are talking about him years later as, like, one of the best filmmakers of all time. Yes. And so, like, he, [00:21:10] he lets the ideas kind of, like, lead him and, um, so art vector.

Michael: To me the word that leaps out is intuition. Yes. Creative intuition.

Jacob: Yes.

Michael: Um, [00:21:20] I, I was... The future category is words to live by, but, and I thought about this, I think it belongs here. Uh, here's what he had to say that I love: [00:21:30] "Intuition is the key to everything in painting, filmmaking, business, everything. I think you could have an intellectual ability, but if you can sharpen your intuition, which they say is emotion [00:21:40] and intellect joining together, then a knowingness occurs."

I had never heard the idea that intuition is emotion and intellect joined [00:21:50] together. Had you heard that before? No. Isn't that beautiful though? It's great. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And it's got me thinking a lot 'cause I think, you know, uh, uh, certainly an obsession of Famous and Gravy and of mine [00:22:00] is a creative journey.

Yeah. And a creative life. Yeah. Um, and David Lynch's artistry and creativity is so, um, on [00:22:10] display that or, or, or so striking that, that he's, he's essentially an archetype. I mean, he is the, like, quintessential creative [00:22:20] filmmaker in some ways. And you can hear successful filmmakers like Kubrick talked about being a fan, playing Eraserhead on the fan- Yeah.

You know, on Shining. Yes. Uh, you know, Jim [00:22:30] Jarmusch, Fincher, um, Tim Burton. I mean, all of these, like, you've... A very eclectic mix of filmmakers would point to him as a key source of inspiration. Definitely. Um, [00:22:40] and, but as a Famous and Gravy point, there is something to me- Like, I, I, I like the way you [00:22:50] described it as it's out there and we're supposed to like let our spirit catch it somehow- Yes

and translate it through a medium. Mm-hmm. Like, that [00:23:00] is, that is the point. Yeah. And that it's, and that it's not, um, a- And that, and that it's not intimidating. You- you're right about that. There is a... I mean, one of the things [00:23:10] about David Lynch is that I do feel on some level unqualified to talk about him.

Because No, no ... because I think, well, I do think only in that he is [00:23:20] the kind of creator that attracts a tremendous amount of intellectual scrutiny. Mm-hmm. And, you know, reviewers and critics- Yeah ... like pore [00:23:30] over his work trying to- Yeah ... interpret and understand that. Yeah. And sometimes I feel like, you know, can, am I allowed to do that?

Yeah. But I, but I do feel allowed to do [00:23:40] that. I, I watched, uh, the one I watched late last night, I stayed up watching Mulholland Drive. Yeah. I hadn't seen it in ages. Oh, yeah. And it, like as a second rewatch, to your point- Yeah ... [00:23:50] l- I, I, it's not that I get it more or understand it better, but there are things that are clicking into place for reasons- Yeah

I can't quite fi- put my finger on.

Jacob: Oh, yeah. [00:24:00] You come back and you're like, "Oh, now I g-," like it, every

Michael: time you- Does it really make sense? I, you know.

Jacob: I, I think, I think so. But this is not a film podcast, uh-

Michael: No, but, uh, but, well, [00:24:10] but, but, and actually maybe this is the point- ... uh, about, about art vector and creative intuition-

Jacob: Yeah

Michael: is that he inspires conversation. Yes,

Jacob: yes. You

Michael: know? [00:24:20] And that, I, that's something I love in any artist. And then that may even be the point of art-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: is to inspire- Yes ... conversation.

Jacob: Yes. And let me dovetail just one of my little things that I'll tag onto [00:24:30] yours, but-

Michael: Yeah ...

Jacob: that I love that he never explained anything ever.

Michael: Yes.

Jacob: So 'cause, like people would be like, "Yeah, so Eraserhead, that was like about you like being f- afraid to be a dad?" [00:24:40] Yeah. And he's like, "Not really." Nah. And that-

Michael: That's coincidence.

Jacob: Yeah ... and they're like, "But it's like about, it's like about families." And he's like, "There's a family in it." And it's like, you know, like, like, but like it [00:24:50] does-

Michael: But that's the job, right?

Yes. To not, to not offer an interpretation. No, and- In fact, it's sort of annoying when an artist tells you how you're supposed to interpret their work.

Jacob: Yes. Yes. Um- And, and I love that he was like [00:25:00] so ironclad 'cause you, like if you give an inch, then people are like, "Oh, well then now all of his movies must, there must be one true interpretation."

Yeah. But he was big on, [00:25:10] like h- it's not about, like what you think about it, it's how you feel about it.

Michael: Yeah.

Archival: I love abstractions [00:25:20] and, and the power of cinema to tell abstractions is huge. So, um, it's as if people [00:25:30] either don't have so much intuition or they don't trust their intuition or whatever, and there's, [00:25:40] um, there's a lot of noise in the cinema.

And y- if you're not paying attention, because every little thing is, is [00:25:50] gotta be right, and, and you can, you can kinda, you gotta get into that world, uh, and then trust your own intuition [00:26:00]

Jacob: This one actually kind of, again, dovetails, and I didn't know how to say this in, like, a, a quaint, quick way.

Michael: Hmm.

Jacob: But so I just he made a [00:26:10] bunch of art I don't really like.

Michael: Oh, that's great. I- Yeah, I know, I know how you feel.

Jacob: He, and-

Michael: Okay, so what do you not like?

Jacob: I think, um, like, Wild at Heart- Yeah ... it's fine. There's some- it's [00:26:20] fine. It's good and bad. It, for me. But my wife, it's, like, her favorite David Lynch movie. Is that right? Yeah. It g- yeah, so again, this just depends on who it is.

Um, I don't really [00:26:30] like his painting style. I get it. Oh,

Michael: I actually like it

Jacob: a lot. But I see.

Michael: That's what I mean. Yeah. That's what I- I actually love it. I mean, there's something... It, there, there's a, I, I, I... Well, y- [00:26:40] anyway, I interrupted.

Jacob: No, no, no. No, no, no. Uh, yeah, what do you like about

Michael: it? I was gonna say, there's something about his work that, uh, has a, a, a quality of synesthesia for me.

Hmm. Mm-hmm. The crossing of [00:26:50] senses. Yes, yes. You know, his paintings I feel like I can smell. Yes, yes. His, his, his, you know, visuals I feel like I can hear. Yes. I mean, there, there is-

Jacob: Yes ...

Michael: something where he is [00:27:00] really confusing the senses. Yeah. And I think it's to your sorta sandpaper point- Yes, yes ... of, you know?

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Um, and I, I actually, I have never been to an exhibit- Yeah ... but what [00:27:10] I've seen of his paintings- Yeah ... I was actually a lot more intrigued- Yeah ... than I would've thought.

Jacob: Fair. Yeah. Um... Definitely. Yeah, and see, that's, that's what I, again, it's part of what I like about him. It, 'cause I can say there's a bunch that I [00:27:20] don't really like.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And you're thinking of some, but it's not the same as what I'm thinking of. You know what I mean? Like, we all have our different things that we might like and dislike. Um, I didn't really [00:27:30] like Twin Peaks: The Return all that much. I

Michael: actually never watched it.

Jacob: I, I have a lot of friends who think it's his, like, masterpiece or whatever, but, like, I didn't really care for most of it.

Um, and that's [00:27:40] fine- Fair ... 'cause I lo- I love Twin Peaks, the original.

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Jacob: Um, I love Fire Walk with Me. But, like, anyways, I could go on and on, but what I, why I like this is, uh, [00:27:50] I, I think, I thought about, like, who are some artists who almost, like, 100% of the time I love, and I came up with two people.

Michael: Okay.

Jacob: Uh, [00:28:00] a musician, Johnny Greenwood of Radiohead.

He does- Oh ... film scores. Yeah. He's like a, he's like a super genius. I know

Michael: of him, and I've heard people talk about him. He'll- I haven't deep dived him.

Jacob: [00:28:10] He, he'll just... He can, "Oh, I'm gonna write some, like, romantic style piano music. Now I'm gonna make an abstract, like, uh, percussive thing. Now I'm gonna go to [00:28:20] India and do all of this sort of, like, traditional music."

And he's just on a different level, and it's intimidating. Yeah. It does not make me wanna make music. Yeah. [00:28:30]

Michael: Right,

Jacob: right. But I'll watch something by David Lynch or, you know, listen to one of his songs, and I'm like I think I could probably do better than that, and it's inviting, you know what I mean? It's like he- [00:28:40] David Lynch loves making stuff

Michael: It's bold is what it is, right?

It's bo- it's- Uh, uh, bold in the sense that he's gonna, like, he, it, I, I don't think he's trying to make a statement about [00:28:50] being courageous. No, no. But you don't see him inhibited.

Jacob: No, ex- that, exactly.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: He's going out there for the love of the game.

Michael: Right.

Jacob: He says, "I'm gonna, I feel like playing guitar today.

I'm gonna make a [00:29:00] guitar song." Yeah. And it's, and it's, like, decent. And, and like-

Michael: It, it, it's enviable, too.

Jacob: Yes,

Michael: yes. It's a quality I wish I had. Yes. Because it does- Yes ... seem indifferent to [00:29:10] reaction, right? Yes, yes. It seems, um, it seems driven by the inside out, and it doesn't depend on audience reaction- Exactly

or audience capture.

Jacob: Yes. That's it. Yeah. That, that's the... And [00:29:20] so I, I love that-

Michael: And it's a through line of his whole life.

Jacob: Yes,

Michael: exactly. Uh, I mean, it's there- From- ... really from an early age ... from like- From adolescence ...

Jacob: 12 or something, you know?

Michael: Total. Yeah, yeah,

Jacob: yeah. So I, I [00:29:30] don't know. It, it made me reflect- I don't

Michael: like all his work.

That's great, number two.

Jacob: Yeah. It ma- it made me reflect on, um, why you would make art. And it's not that you wanna make the best movie [00:29:40] ever made, it's 'cause you just wanna make a movie you like, or a painting or whatever. Yeah. So.

Michael: Uh, all right. I'm gonna take number three, and I'm gonna go Captain Obvious here.

Con- commitment to transcendental [00:29:50] meditation. Yeah. I, I mean, it just needs to be brought up that- Yeah ... this guy was... I, okay, I, I did, in getting ready for this episode, it's been an open tab on my browser. [00:30:00] How, how to get transcendental meditation training. It's time, Jacob Weiss. It's time- Yeah ... that I finally commit to this.

'Cause I've been hearing people talk it up for forever. Yeah. And [00:30:10] I do think that I, I really like hearing him interviewed. I like hearing him speak. Yeah, yeah. The kinda quirky, weird accent. Yeah. He's so deliberate. [00:30:20] Yeah. And he's so deliberate in everything, but certainly with his voice and with i- with his word chose, choice.

Yeah. And I think this has to be a result- Yeah ... of mindfulness. Yeah. Yes. I [00:30:30] think that- Yeah ... that, uh, that creative intuition, that blending of intellect and emotion- Uh-huh ... um, to, to get there, to weave [00:30:40] those things together- Yeah ... requires awareness.

Jacob: Yeah.

Archival: It's like consciousness. They say every human being has consciousness, but not every [00:30:50] human being has the same amount.

The potential, however, for every human being is infinite consciousness. You [00:31:00] can't, uh, just wish for more intuition. You can't just imagine you have more intuition. Same way with consciousness. You can't [00:31:10] just wish for more. You can't just, uh, uh, imagine more. You gotta go where it is and get more. It's like fishing.[00:31:20]

You can put your f- hook on a desert and lay it on the desert in the sand. You wait for a long time for a fish. [00:31:30] Maybe these huge, huge ages of time before water and fish come. Anyway.

Michael: I, I love that he's got a whole foundation on [00:31:40] this. And I am gonna commit to transcendental meditation. There you- It's time.

Jacob: There you go.

Michael: It's time. What are you gonna go with for number five?

Jacob: Um, this one's endearing for me [00:31:50] specifically and for a podcast, and I'm just gonna put sound design because David Lynch, uh, is talked about for so many [00:32:00] different things, but I think if you watch any of his work, you'll, you f- you hear it- Yes

more than anything.

Michael: Yeah, I get- And

Jacob: it does- This

Michael: is my synesthesia point a little bit.

Jacob: Yes.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: [00:32:10] But, and, and I, I kind of wrote this specifically to tell the story because I, uh, in Eraserhead, there is that one scene that, uh, [00:32:20] uh, Henry is, uh, woken up in the middle of the night. His baby's crying, and he goes out into the hallway, and this woman appears from [00:32:30] just the darkness

But in the background is this sort of like ominous like mmm, [00:32:40] like humming noise Yeah And it, it's like thick

Friend: I locked myself out of my apartment.

Jacob: And it feels like they're just like, like [00:32:50] magnets coming together. That sound, he told, uh, he told the story of it, that they were in his bathroom. You can imagine, you know, two guys like at [00:33:00] midnight just crowded in his bathroom, filled the tub up with water, cut a bottle, and put a microphone suspended in water, and they're just in silence, [00:33:10] like listening to this microphone float on the water.

And, and they're just listening to it, and then he puts that in the movie. And, and that's just like one thing he d- again, like [00:33:20] art vector, intuition, all this stuff. Like, how do you find yourself in that situation? You're right. And then, and then to be like-

Michael: How do you give yourself permission to be in that [00:33:30] situation?

Jacob: Yes, yes

Michael: You know what I mean?

Jacob: And then once it happens, be like, "Oh, that's the sound for..." You know, it's like my, my temptress to come out from like [00:33:40] Like, like again, none of it makes any sense. Yeah But then you see the scene

Michael: That, that sure sounds like sexual tension to me. That's hilarious[00:33:50]

Archival: And it's so light

Jacob: I guess that's why I love it, is that he's operating on these sort of like [00:34:00] just vibes alone. Mm-hmm. And yet it's always leading him into something that is new and interesting. And, um, you could say that about any of his [00:34:10] sound design, right? Because, uh, it's very distinctive. Yeah. He has a lot of stuff.

I mean, uh, Twin Peaks. Yeah. The back- the backwards talking.

Michael: Yes.

Jacob: Are you Laura Palmer? [00:34:20]

Archival: Hey, Phil, I, uh, know where were some stars. My arms [00:34:30] bend back-

She's filled with secrets[00:34:40]

Michael: And I, I, and it makes you wonder, are creatives still doing this? You know? I, I, I, I... Where- Mm-hmm ... I mean, I'm sure there are. I'd like to believe- Sure ... there are. Yeah. But there is [00:34:50] a, a patience and a trust in that process- Yes, yes ... that- Patience and trust, yes ... uh, that, that, uh, that, that I also find... I, I wish I had [00:35:00] those days and hours.

Yes. And of course I do. Yeah. I just don't feel like I do. But- You know what I mean?

Jacob: Yeah, but I, I think, like, that's the, the thing is, I was like, I don't think everyone should, like, get [00:35:10] into sound design. But I think, like, you should trust that if you have, like, an idea to, like, pull on it, you know? And he's clearly, like, pulling on all these different threads- There are

no matter where it [00:35:20] leads him. Last thing on sound design. He also famously would write notes to all of his films when they toured, like, the country. And Mulholland Drive is funny 'cause he specifically [00:35:30] says, like, "Turn it up louder than it should go, and it should clip." Yeah. And he wanted it to be so loud that when there was loud scenes it'd be, like- Assaulting

aggressive. Yeah. Yes. [00:35:40] But he personally, like, "Yeah, I know that you think that it's wrong, but I'm right."

Michael: Right, right.

Jacob: Anyway, he talked about Eraserhead. He would, like, go from cinema to cinema and personally set the [00:35:50] soundboard.

Michael: Wow. Yeah. That's incredible. Okay, uh, well, let's recap. So, uh, c- number one, you said art vector.

Uh, number two, I said [00:36:00] creative intuition. Um, number three, we went with-

Jacob: You made a bunch of art I don't actually like ...

Michael: made a bunch of art I don't actually like. Thank God for that. Uh, try and fill. Number [00:36:10] four, uh, transcendental meditation, and number five, sound design.

Jacob: Yes.

Michael: Excellent list. Okay. All right.

Let's take a break.[00:36:20]

Okay, category three, one love. In this category, we will each choose one word or phrase that characterizes David Lynch's loving relationships. [00:36:30] First, we'll review the data. It gets a little complicated in here. So four marriages, kid with each marriage. Uh, Peggy, uh, when he was 21, uh, [00:36:40] they had a child who was born when, uh, David was 22.

They divorced in '74 when he's 28. Um, then there was Mary Fisk, the first Mary. They [00:36:50] marry in 1977. David's 31. Uh, they have a child when he's 36, and they divorce when David Lynch is 41. The third marriage, [00:37:00] Mary Sweeney, this was a real quick one. Married in 2006, divorced in 2007, so David Lynch was 60, and they were longtime collaborators.

Yeah, I was gonna

Jacob: say.

Michael: They were from '61.

Jacob: I think, I think that betrays [00:37:10] their... Like, they were probably together for longer and

Michael: then just- Right ... they were like- But it wasn't like- No ... didn't tie the knot and then untied it for, for a hot minute. 'Cause yeah, they had a child and born in [00:37:20] '92.

Jacob: Yeah, exactly.

Michael: Yeah. Um, so when he was 46.

And then fourth wife, Emily, they married in 2009. Uh, David was 63. A child born in 2012. [00:37:30] Ch- um, he, so he was a 66-year-old father. Uh, she filed for divorce in 2023, but they never file- finalized it, so they were technically married, and, [00:37:40] uh, he, David Lynch, was 77, um, when they filed, so he died at 78.

Jacob: And longtime partner with Isabella Rossellini for a long- Yes, of course

they did not, they did not [00:37:50] get married, but-

Michael: Right ...

Jacob: um, you know, they were, were together for years.

Michael: Yeah. And okay, I'll lead. In a way, I kinda copped out I wrote Elephant Man.

Jacob: Oh.

Michael: [00:38:00] Um.

Jacob: Okay.

Michael: So here's where I'm going with this. First of all, I actually think that's maybe my favorite David Lynch movie.

Jacob: You know what?

I still haven't seen it. Really? I know. For a while I wanted [00:38:10] to, like, be like I wanna see everything. Yeah. But then there's, there's a certain point where I feel like I wanna leave myself treats-

Michael: I

Jacob: think that's- ... in the future. Yes. To be like, I'll, I'll... You know, like, okay, now it's time to like sit down and [00:38:20] watch, like, a great movie, and I know I'm gonna love it.

And so I'm just like kind of, you know, it's like a little present that I'll un-

Michael: I'm on board with this ... unwrap later. A fine wine. Yeah. Wait for the right moment- Yes ... to crack it open. [00:38:30] Yes. I think it's perfect. I agree. I don't know why, it, it, the, the fact that this was the first movie I saw of his. Uh-huh. And I was a kid.

Uh-huh. And I- I know ... I [00:38:40] don't know why these things were on my television. I don't know who was letting me watch television for long hours. Um, okay, so here are the comparisons I [00:38:50] see. Uh, elephants are not monogamous. Right. Yep. But they have strong kinship structure. Sure. Um, so and he became a father at 22 and again at [00:39:00] 66.

Yeah. So there's a, there's a long lifespan. Mm-hmm. That's a very elephant thing. Yes. Um, I do it, like, one thing that is striking, I didn't do a super deep dive into this category, but [00:39:10] neither his kids nor his, uh, exes really badmouth him all that much- No ... from what I can see. Everybody seems to say- They love him

they say nice [00:39:20] things, and it's kinda striking. Yes. Um, I also think he's got thick skin.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Um, like an elephant. Yeah. Uh, eh, I think... And, and [00:39:30] then the last two things, and this is more about him as a person, he's- It's just weird. Yeah. He's a weird guy. Yes. And that's a weird animal. Yeah. The big ears, the long [00:39:40] trunk.

It feels surreal that that thing even exists. Yeah. Um.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: And yet there is a sort of deliberate gracefulness- Yeah ... to, uh, to him. So- Yes ... [00:39:50] Elephant Man was my one love.

Jacob: I actually love that.

Michael: Thank you. Yeah. It's a really good one. I'm glad the comparison came out. Um, all right, so what did you have?

Jacob: Okay. So, um, I didn't know this word [00:40:00] until I kind of was trying to search for one.

Michael: Oh, I love this.

Jacob: Yes. Okay. And it actually ends up being a Freudian concept, like from Freud himself.

Michael: Interesting.

Jacob: The word [00:40:10] is cathexis.

Michael: Cathexis?

Jacob: C-A-T-H-E-X-I-S.

Michael: Never heard of this word before.

Jacob: And it... I hadn't either, but what it, what it says is, [00:40:20] "The concentration of mental energy on one particular person, idea, or object, especially to an unhealthy degree."[00:40:30]

And so this, this feels exactly like David Lynch to me.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: Especially when you hear him talk, and he's so [00:40:40] insistent on one idea, and that is you have to fall in love with ideas.

Michael: Totally. He says this over and over. I t- I was gonna bring this up earlier. Every time

Jacob: he- Fall in love with an

Michael: [00:40:50] idea ... i- he's, he, like, and he seems to mean that literally.

Jacob: Literally.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: Literally. And I think it's really interesting, like, that he had a longtime relationship with Isabella Rossellini, who [00:41:00] starred in Blue Velvet- Blue Velvet, yep ... as the love interest. So you have to wonder, like, I'm sure he loved her, but also he probably loved the image of her on [00:41:10] the screen as, like, this, you know, this, this character, this person, this idea.

He married and was in a relationship with his editor.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: Right? Um, [00:41:20] he even seems to have, like, not, maybe not romantic, but, like, true, deep love with people like Kyle MacLachlan and Laura Dern- Yeah ... collaborators who [00:41:30] it, it almost feels like family or something. "

Archival: Nice to meet you, Naomi." He's got that intense ear-to-ear grin, [00:41:40] and, um, you know, smoking up a storm.

"So how was your day?" I got a call that he wanted to [00:41:50] meet me at Bob's Big Boy to see if Kyle MacLachlan and I could get along or something. David was doodling on napkins while [00:42:00] Kyle was doodling with a knife into his ketchup, and I mean, a girl either goes, "These are really bizarre men, [00:42:10] and they're twin souls," or, "I'm in love with both these people and wanna spend the rest of my lives with them," which is how I responded.

You

Jacob: think about all of these relationships that he's had, [00:42:20] um, Jack Fisk.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: He calls him his best friend. He is the man h- you know, in Eraserhead and am- among other things.

Michael: I, he's got a lot of the... There's a, there's definitely a, [00:42:30] like- So- ... a lot of carryover- So ... from project to project.

Jacob: And, and so you see this cast of characters that he kind of surrounds himself with, and you can easily imagine how he goes from, [00:42:40] like, partner to partner, and it's not that he ever, like, falls out of love with someone, but he, he turns his spotlight.

[00:42:50] Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. He's like, "It's not that I don't love you anymore. It's that now you are my obsession," you know? Right. And he, he, uh, also [00:43:00] expresses this not just with people but with things. Have you heard his milkshake story?

Michael: Uh, Big Bob's or Billy Bob's, or what

Jacob: was it called? Big, uh, Bob's Big Boy.

Michael: Bob's Big Boy, yeah. [00:43:10]

Jacob: How for, like, almost 10 years, he would sit in the diner every single day, 3:00, order the milkshake because that's when they switched the machine- And it was perfect ... so it was the perfect... [00:43:20] Yeah. And he'll say, "I've had three perfect milkshakes in my life."

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And then he learned that they were made out of, like, chemicals- Right

and, like, really gross stuff, and, [00:43:30] like, "Next day, I, I'm out of milkshakes." Just like

Michael: chicken and broccoli

Jacob: for

Michael: lunch. No-

Jacob: A, a, a- Yes. No, no more... No, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yes, he eats one thing for lunch every day, but the milkshakes, he [00:43:40] dropped them- Yeah ... in, in the same day. Never again. So I think that he has these fixations- Mm-hmm

that he then just, you know, [00:43:50] drops.

Michael: I don't even know how much he's interested in a long-term- ... you know, committed relationship. Yeah. But it doesn't seem like it was ever on the table for him.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: And, and I, [00:44:00] I, I, let me say this. I, I don't wanna judge that.

Jacob: No, no.

Michael: But I also do think it misses what I believe can exist- [00:44:10] Mm-hmm

which is- Not cathexis, I guess. Yeah. Um, w- a- anti-cathexis. The a- the ability to remain committed-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: at some level.

Jacob: [00:44:20] Definitely, yeah. And I think that that also speaks to maybe all the other things we've been talking about, how he's so sporadic of like, "Okay, I'm into, I'm gonna make a book now. I'm [00:44:30] gonna make a movie now.

I'm gonna make a album now." Like- Yeah ... he just kind of is s- it's not that he can't, like, focus on an idea, it's [00:44:40] that he's almost like he's s- he's easy to just, like, cut ties with something.

Michael: Well, that's the thing, is that, well, what's interesting here, and I, whatever, we don't have to [00:44:50] resolve it or, or make peace around it, but it, it's, it's as if the same philosophy that applies to his creative pursuits- Yes

[00:45:00] also applies to his relationships. Yes, yes. And people and ideas are not the same thing. A person is not an idea, a person is a soul. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And he even believes that. Yeah. I mean, he, [00:45:10] he talks about that as being part of his transcendental- Yeah ... meditation philosophy. Yes. It's like it's- Yeah

underneath it's all unity.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Um-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: uh, all right. Well, [00:45:20] I like the word cathexis. Thank you for introducing it. There's the vocab word of the day. Let's m- yeah, totally. Uh, it's, it's a nod to Pee-wee Herman. Um, all right. Category four, [00:45:30] net worth. In this category we are gonna guess the net worth. Uh, our results, uh, then we'll, we'll then look it up.

The results are sourced from the, sourced from the website [00:45:40] celebritynetworth.com. May be reliable, may be not. We write down our numbers ahead of time before we reveal, and finally we'll place this person on the Famous and Grady Net Worth leaderboard.

Jacob: Before we talk about it, do you wanna [00:45:50] just reveal intuition style?

Michael: Uh- We'll

Jacob: talk about it after ...

Michael: yeah, okay. I guess I w- yes. Okay, let's do it. Shall we just reveal? Let's do it. All right. So Jacob Weisberg- My- ... wrote [00:46:00] down 33 million.

Jacob: Michael Osborne wrote down 15 million.

Michael: Okay. Uh, yeah.

Jacob: That's why I wanted to do this, is 'cause I, I thought that we would be pretty different.

Michael: This is, [00:46:10] yeah.

Um, I, but I bet you're right. Okay.

Jacob: I don't know, though.

Michael: David Lynch's actual net worth according to Celebrity is 70 million. What? Oh, goodne-[00:46:20]

Archival: Mr. Jackpot

Jacob: In my mind, I was thinking, like, [00:46:30] 50 would be, like, the, the- The max? ... absolute ceiling. I- 'Cause he even talks about being, not having that much money.

Michael: We, I know, but okay. So here's ... [00:46:40] Mm, I should, I, no, I should've gone higher, ob- obviously. No,

Jacob: this-

Michael: But let's, let's talk it out.

Jacob: But- Look, you, you look at his body of work, you look at a movie like Lost Highway, and you're like, "Oh, yeah, this [00:46:50] guy has no way this guy has more than 15 million."

Michael: The hu- commercial success is not there. There's never really a blockbuster. Even Mulholland Drive is, like, the, performs pretty well- It's like- ... but it's not like- [00:47:00] Makes,

Jacob: makes its money back

Michael: Right. A- and, uh, and, and there's a lot of critical acclaim, but he did a lot of commercials.

Jacob: That's ... Okay, that's what I-

Michael: Like, a ton of commercials

Jacob: that's what ... I, [00:47:10] so I wrote down advertisements, just to name a few, Dior, Gucci, Adidas, Calvin Klein, Georgia Coffee, Michael Jackson- Yeah ... his [00:47:20] introduction to his, like, big '90s tour video. Yeah. The Sci-Fi Channel, and PlayStation 2.

Michael: PlayStation 2. It's the weirdest commercial.

Archival: Welcome [00:47:30] to the

Michael: And I also knew that directors, just based on history- Yeah

do very well on this list. Like-

Jacob: But he just [00:47:40] doesn't feel like he should He doesn't feel like

Michael: somebody who should have 70 million. My God. All right, this is, uh... Yeah, I mean- But,

Jacob: okay, but then I did write... Okay, so advertisements, [00:47:50] of course, art sale. I mean, I think that there's probably a lot of rich people who just wanna say they've got a David Lynch painting, and they don't care if they pay- That's probably true

two, $2 million for it. I mean, that's pretty cheap for a painting, [00:48:00] you know? Yeah.

Michael: I,

Jacob: I actually- I think he has like a- If

Michael: I had the, that kind of money, I would probably buy a David Lynch piece.

Jacob: Yeah, just why not? He probably has made more, I, I'm just guessing, on art sales than movies. [00:48:10] Yeah. You know? I wouldn't be surprised.

But

Michael: 70 million. But- My God. All right. But, um- But well done ...

Jacob: well, yeah, well done.

Michael: We sometimes talk about this on Famous and Gravy. 100 years from now, [00:48:20] who's gonna be remembered?

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: I think that there's a case that David Lynch is gonna be in the history books in a way a lot of other figures on Famous and Gravy will not.

Jacob: If, if not the history books, the [00:48:30] dictionary.

Michael: Yeah, exactly, right? Like, it's- He's got a definition ...

Jacob: he has a word.

Michael: But, but it, but, but it's also, I do think that his influence is so vast, it's hard to [00:48:40] track. But I think that we... I mean, he, he is in that category of artist that, that fit into, you know, history- Yeah

in a way, right? Yeah. And, [00:48:50] and the fact that he's even famous at all is kind of remarkable, right? Yes. Like, it almost feels subversive and a- Yes. I, I, I'm, I can think, I was a big fan of the rock group [00:49:00] Ween. Do you know Ween? Yeah, yeah,

Archival: yeah.

Michael: The, there's- Yes ... I remember seeing Ween live for the- Yeah ... first time, and the reaction I had, great show.

The whole time I'm thinking, "I can't believe they get away [00:49:10] with this." And that's a little bit how I feel about David Lynch. I can't believe he gets away with this, you know?

Jacob: Yes, yes.

Michael: All right. Well, let's place him on the, uh, on the net worth [00:49:20] leaderboard. So he is, uh, there are two other people at the $70 million dinner table.

Uh, so he is at position 24, oh, I'm sorry, [00:49:30] 26. Okay. I like this dinner table. This is a weird one. Um, also at the Famous and Gravy net worth dinner table at 70 million sits- [00:49:40] Angela Lansbury?

Jacob: What?

Michael: And James Gandolfini.

That's a dinner table I wanna [00:49:50] hang out at. I- I, okay, we're talking TV here.

Jacob: That's true.

Michael: You know? Or the, we're gonna go the Murtaugh in The Sopranos and Twin Peaks. That is- Oh, man ... I mean- That's kinda fun ... [00:50:00] honest.

Jacob: Okay.

Michael: That- Like, imagine the dinner table conversation there. There,

Jacob: there's a, there's something there.

Michael: There's something. There's something there. There's something to work with. Mystery, uh, underbelly, seedy underbelly. [00:50:10] You, you know. Absolutely. We can go a lot of places. Uh, category five is now Malkovich Malkovich or Tiny Trophy. In this category, we do one of two things. We either [00:50:20] choose a tiny trophy, an award, a cameo, an impersonation, some other form of a hat tip that shows a different side of this person, or we choose a Malkovich moment, named after the movie Being [00:50:30] John Malkovich, in which you get a front row seat, sit, to somebody's experience.

Do you wanna go trophy or Malkovich?

Jacob: I think this is the [00:50:40] time when I wanna do, uh, I wanna tell you about The Straight Story.

Michael: Okay. Malkovich moment with The Straight Story?

Jacob: I, see, the thing, though, about Malkovich Malkovich is I, it's [00:50:50] not really through- Tiny trophy ... his perspective. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna call this tiny trophy.

Michael: Okay.

Jacob: Um, so you watched The Straight Story?

Michael: I did, on your recommendation. Yes. And I loved it.

Jacob: Okay, [00:51:00] good. Yeah. I

Michael: loved it.

Jacob: Yes. Okay.

Uh,

Michael: I, I, I, I got emotional-

Jacob: Yes ... watching it. It's, no, it's, it, it, it was one of those, when I watched it the first time, too, like, I, I liked [00:51:10] it all the way through, but when you finally get to that last stretch, was just-

Michael: We should explain the

Jacob: plot

Yes. Okay, so The Straight Story. It's pretty easy to explain. It's very simple. It's very simple. It's based on a [00:51:20] true story. A man, um, in- Iowa ... Iowa, uh, is getting old. He, um, has an accident. He's kind of towards the end [00:51:30] of his life, gets a call that his brother has had a stroke, and he's also near the end of l- his life.

So these two guys, at the very end of their life, they haven't talked in, spoken to each other [00:51:40] in, like, 10 years. They had a bad argument. And so he then decides, um, uh, his name is Alvin Straight, that's why it's The Straight Story. He's going to [00:51:50] drive to make amends with his brother. The problem is he is old, failing eyesight.

The only thing that he can drive is his riding lawnmower. [00:52:00] So he drives his lawnmower for, you know, 300 miles.

Michael: Across the state to Wisconsin.

Jacob: Yes, to make amends with his brother, [00:52:10] who you may not even know if he's alive still. Yeah. He's just going out and gonna make things right.

Michael: Well, okay, let's, let's, you, well, you please pass the headline there.

Drove [00:52:20] his lawnmower. Yeah. Like, it went five miles an hour. It was five miles an hour. And attached a trailer- Yeah ... with all his camping gear. Yeah. He's just- So he's, like, on the highway, [00:52:30]

Jacob: just chuckling. Camping on the side of the road, eating can of beans. I mean, it's a nice mower, to be sure, but, like,

Michael: he's driving- John Deere?

Yeah, exactly.

Jacob: It's classic. But no, yeah, so and, and then the, the movie is kind of [00:52:40] he, he is moving at a slow pace and meeting people and essentially experiencing the kindness of strangers.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And, and so it's just like a road movie at five miles an [00:52:50] hour, you know? Yeah. Um, okay, so the movie, why is it interesting?

Why is this my tiny trophy? So this is the only movie that David Lynch ever made that he did not write. [00:53:00] It was written by his on-again, off-again wife, Mary Sweeney. Uh, she found out about the story in real life, fell in love with it, worked on writing the [00:53:10] script for years and years and years, bought the rights to the script herself, with a producer, can, and then said, "David, can you read my script?"

He fell in love with the [00:53:20] script, said, "This is only one of four scripts that I've ever read that I loved." And so he said, "I'm, I'm on board." He did not wanna cast Richard Farnsworth at [00:53:30] first- Yeah ... who was the lead. Yeah. They, uh, they said, "We have to audition him." He did. Fell in love with Richard Farnsworth, said, "You are Alvin Straight.

[00:53:40] Great." Richard Farnsworth said, "I only wanted to do the role because of my admiration and respect for the real-life man." He was old. He was basically [00:53:50] retired. Yeah. He was not really looking to do a film, but he signs on to it. Okay. Movie comes out, it's, uh, huge, you know, praise. Um, I think [00:54:00] it makes some amount of money, whatever.

He gets a, a, an Oscar nomination.

Michael: Yes.

Jacob: It's called the performance of a lifetime. Yeah. You know, he says, "I, I was so lucky [00:54:10] that I got to have one more, you know, great role in my life." He doesn't get the Oscar, loses to Kevin Spacey. A few months later, comes out that [00:54:20] Richard Farnsworth commits suicide.

Michael: Yeah, terminal cancer.

Jacob: But nobody knew. He didn't tell anyone that he [00:54:30] was dying of cancer while he was playing a character who essentially was dying of cancer. So it comes out that he [00:54:40] has been dying throughout the whole movie, and you kind of understand he wanted to do the movie because it was him. Like, that was his life.

Yeah. [00:54:50] Okay? Years later, unprompted on a podcast, Norm Macdonald is asked about David Lynch, and he says, "I [00:55:00] don't really like David Lynch. He's a weird guy, but, uh, have you ever seen The Straight Story?"

Archival: Well, you gotta see this movie. Okay. And if you watch it closely, there's, like, [00:55:10] hellish things going on underneath the surface of what looks like a quaint story.

So anyways, the point of it is that Richard [00:55:20] Farnsworth was nominated for an, uh, Ca- an Academy Award for the movie, and if he had said he was, he was filled with cancer, he would've won, for [00:55:30] sure. Sure. But instead he didn't say it, and, uh, in fact, no one knew it. Uh, his family didn't know it. He kept it from everyone.

That [00:55:40] to me is courageous. Like, you're, you know, you're not being a burden to your family. You know, they know nothing about it, and then, uh, you're gone. Yeah. And, uh, and you know, [00:55:50] they write him a... He wrote a nice letter to everybody, you know, in, in the family, and said that, you know, he didn't wanna, he, that the reason he did it is he didn't wanna cause people distress.

So I [00:56:00] thought, "Wow, how incredible." Like- Thank you ... to go through it alone.

Jacob: Why is this my tiny trophy? So

Archival: Yeah.

Jacob: It's, it's all of these... Again, this is [00:56:10] intuition, okay?

Archival: Yeah.

Jacob: What- the only movie that someone else wrote for David Lynch casted a guy who was dying [00:56:20] of cancer who wanted to do a role, that then Norm Macdonald, who sees himself in this story That he's also [00:56:30] dying of cancer but not telling anyone.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And so it's all of these, like, hidden- It's the China

Michael: Life

Jacob: thing. It's-

Michael: Yeah ...

Jacob: it's, like, this undercurrent that no one knows about, but they [00:56:40] feel it. Okay? It's, it's all of this stuff-

Michael: Underground stream ...

Jacob: yes, exactly. And so, like, I think this is, in many ways, the [00:56:50] power of David Lynch, that he couldn't probably express this weird connection, how do you get from Alvin Straight to Norm Macdonald?

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: But it, [00:57:00] it threaded through all of them through this one movie, and there was just something that David Lynch, like, kind of was pulled towards this movie, like, "I have to make this movie." He didn't, [00:57:10] he didn't know all of these things, but he weaved all of these people together.

Michael: I mean, this really gets to your art vector point.

Yes, yes. Right? Yes. That, that, that there [00:57:20] is, um, I, you know, I brought it up and I think you told me once that your least favorite episode in the entire Famous Gravy catalog- ... was the Margaret Thatcher episode. [00:57:30] Probably. I, I'm sorry I made you edit that one. No, I- I even actually had people tell me they love it.

It's fine. But, but one thing I brought up in there is [00:57:40] the, uh, Saint Francis prayer, and that prayer begins- Yeah ... with, "Lord, make me a channel of Your peace." Yes. And I think that there is, like- That's- ... that's what we're talking about- Yes ... on some [00:57:50] level. It's a channel. It's a vector. He's a, he's- Yes ... he is a medium- Yes

through which this, like, subsurface river is flowing, and you bring it up to the surface as a spring and [00:58:00] let everybody drink from, and it goes right back underground. Yes. Right?

Jacob: Yes, yes.

Michael: They're tapping into something-

Jacob: That- ...

Michael: beyond you.

Jacob: And, and this ties back to the whole, like-

Michael: It's hard not to hear that story and think that, [00:58:10] right?

Jacob: Yes. Yeah. It, but, and it, and it also ties to, like, again, like, the, even the first line of the obituary, the, like, the c- like, the world consciousness sort of thing. Yeah. Like, it, like, I don't know. No. [00:58:20] Spiritual or not, like, I, I hear a story like this, and y- you've gotta think that there's something to the meditation.

Michael: Well,

Jacob: this has always- You

Michael: know? ... been my whole sp- yeah, totally. Like- [00:58:30] And this has always been my, like, sort of argument about the spiritual undercurrent of Famous and Gravy. It's not that you have to sign off on any belief- No. ... in a deity. It's that [00:58:40] if there's a willingness to look- Yes ... you find all this meaning there.

Yes. And what a great example of that.

Jacob: Yes.

Michael: That's awesome. Anyways. It's more than, that's, what a large Tiny [00:58:50] Troby. So... Um, well done. Uh, I had thought about M- My Malkovich Moment- Uh-huh ... as being Dune as a turning point. Because it's the only [00:59:00] time he said, uh, he sold out. Yeah. Um, a- and there, b- uh, actually, this kinda dovetails.

Maybe I'll go ahead and share it. Yeah, yeah. This is from the David Foster Wallace [00:59:10] article. He says, "In a strange way, Dune actually ended up being Lynch's big break as a filmmaker." Yeah. Dune, that fin- the Dune that finally appeared in the theaters was, by all [00:59:20] reliable reports, heartbreaking for Lynch, the kind of debacle that, in myths about innocent, idealistic artists and the maw of the Hollywood process signal-" signals the violent end of the [00:59:30] artist's innocence.

Seduced, overwhelmed, fucked over, left to the take the public heat and the mogul's wrath. The experience could easily have turned Lynch into an embittered hack doing [00:59:40] effects to, effects intensive gore fests for commercial studios. This article is so good. Yeah. Or it could have sent him scurrying to the safety of academia, making [00:59:50] obscure plotless 16 millimeters for the pipe and beret crowd.

The experience did neither. Lynch both hung in and on some level probably [01:00:00] gave up. Dune convinced him of something that, uh, that all the really interesting independent filmmakers, the Cohen Brothers, Jane Champ- Ca- Jane Campion, Jim Jarmusch, seemed to steer [01:00:10] by. "The experience taught me a valuable lesson," he said years later.

"I learned I would rather not make a film than make one where I don't have final cut." Yes. And this in an almost Lynchianly [01:00:20] weird way is what led to Blue Velvet. The, and, and there's a whole... So the Malkovich moment I want is the moment where he [01:00:30] says, "Okay, I guess I don't have to have final cut." I think he had to go through that unbelievably painful lesson.

The movie is-

Archival: Terrible, [01:00:40] terrible experience. Do you regret making it? Yes

Michael: Let's take another break[01:00:50]

All right, category six, words to live by. In this category, we each choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said about them. I would've thought he'd have been [01:01:00] more quotable. He's not all that quotable. Really? Did you find good stuff? I have

Jacob: three quotes.

Michael: Okay. Oh.

All right. Very good for- But you can go first. You

Jacob: can go first.

Michael: Well, I got another quote from the, the David Foster [01:01:10] Wallace, uh-

Jacob: That's fine ...

Michael: and it e- echoes something we talked about earlier You almost never, from a Lynch movie, get the sense that the point is to entertain you, and [01:01:20] never that the point is to get you to fork over money to see it.

This is the one of the unsettling things about a Lynch movie. You don't feel like you're entering into any of the [01:01:30] standard unspoken and/or unconscious contracts you'd normally enter into with other kinds of movies. This is unsettling because in the absence of such an unconscious contract, we lose [01:01:40] some of the psychic protections we normally, and necessarily, bring to bear on the medium as powerful as film.

That is, if we know on some level what a movie wants from us, [01:01:50] we can erect certain internal defenses that let us choose how much of ourselves we give away to it. The absence of point or recognizable agenda in Lynch's films, though, strips [01:02:00] these subliminal defenses and lets Lynch get inside your head in a way that movies normally don't.

This is why his best films' effects are so often emotional and mi- [01:02:10] nightmarish. We're defenseless in our dreams, too. This may, in fact, be Lynch's true and only agenda, just to get inside your head. He seems to care more [01:02:20] about penetrating your head than about what he does once he's in there. Ooh. Is this good art?

Is this good art? It's hard to say. It seems, once again, either [01:02:30] ingenious or psychopathic. Sure different anyway. I thought that, like, nailed it for me. Yeah. I was like, I- nobody has ever described... [01:02:40] But I think it's your point about Sandpiper. Yes, yes. I do think it's his... What he wants is to get in your head.

Jacob: Yes.

Michael: And what he wants to do in there, unclear. [01:02:50] Well, I, maybe there's not a point. It's sort of like, uh, what is it? When the c- the dog actually catches the car. Yes. You don't know

Jacob: what he's gonna do with it. Yes.

Michael: Right?

Jacob: No, yeah. Yeah. And I, I think, [01:03:00] though, like, uh, in his own weird way, like, he would say that it's better that way.

Yeah. You know? Like, because he- No,

Michael: he gets in there and stirs you up ...

Jacob: That's what I mean, like, he- Yes ... it's not like [01:03:10] he knows how to get into your head specifically, or mine, 'cause he's just aiming at this sort of invisible target [01:03:20] of, like, again, the mass creative consciousness. Yeah. The universal consciousness.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: And it's, it's almost like rather than aiming, again, like, up into your [01:03:30] head, he's like, it's n- like, "No, we're going down. We're going deep into the, the surface, the substrata." You know, like so many of his movies go into the dirt. I mean, Blue [01:03:40] Velvet is like l- you know, goes into the dirt, and you see all the bugs, and you're- Yeah

going, like, down.

Michael: Yeah, yeah,

Jacob: yeah. I think he wants to go-

Michael: The, the, the red ants under the lawn.

Jacob: Yes. I mean, yeah. You, you wanna go [01:03:50] down, and then you connect to everyone in this sort of like unspoken way, you know?

Michael: God, the more we're talking about it, the more, uh- I [01:04:00] really like what you had to say earlier of there's a couple things of his I haven't seen.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: But I, I'm actually really glad for as long as I walk on this earth, I may have a [01:04:10] moment where I've got a couple hours-

Jacob: Yeah ...

Michael: and I'm gonna watch a David Lynch movie- Yes ... I haven't seen before or haven't seen in a long time.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Or I, uh, 'cause because, [01:04:20] uh, I, I actually can't think of anybody who does that so effectively, but there is no, there is no agenda exactly, other than to maybe hint at the idea of a universal [01:04:30] consciousness.

Jacob: Yes. Yes. Uh-huh. Have not much to say- Oh,

Michael: yeah ... other than- Seriously. All right, what do you got for words to live by?

Jacob: The, I actually have, uh, I found this w- when I was in [01:04:40] Mexico City. Again, talk about intuition or whatever. Uh, my wife wanted to go to, like, a thrift store in Mexico City years and years ago, and I was just walking around, and I [01:04:50] w- go to the back, and there's, like, this little corner where there's, like, these little, like, uh, drawings that, like, a local artist made.

And I see this [01:05:00] postcard with a doodle of David Lynch, and this is an actual quote of his. Mm. And I bought it, and it's in, it's right next to my computer at home, and it's, "Negativity is the enemy of [01:05:10] creativity." I

Michael: had this too. Yes. I had this too. This is- I'm so glad you called this out ... th- This is the one I was gonna go with before

Jacob: this is maybe, like, top, top five words to live by- [01:05:20] Oh- ... for me, like, f- life philosophy.

Michael: Why?

Jacob: Because- '

Michael: Cause I agree with this, but I wanna hear you- ... elaborate on it.

Jacob: Bec- like, I don't know. I think about, like, the way that I grew up and, um, [01:05:30] you know, just the way that, like, people are, that, like, if you say, oh, I, I, like, I, I imagine, like, I really wanted to, like, learn how to play guitar, and there was, like, friends who I had.

I say friends, like, [01:05:40] people in school who were, like, better at guitar, and they would, like, make fun of you if you didn't, like, play as well. You know, like, it's a small thing, but it's like, that doesn't wanna make me play guitar, you know? Yeah. And then [01:05:50] I found a friend who was a drummer who was just like, "That's awesome.

Let's just, like, jam." And you find someone who's, like, like- wants to be [01:06:00] excited about the pursuit of creativity, and then that makes you better, right? And then you get better together, right? Yeah. Or if you make a film and everyone says it [01:06:10] sucks, you're probably not gonna be a, like, a filmmaker anymore. But David Lynch, you know, made some films, and he was, you know, told like, "Keep going," you know?

And so-

Michael: By Mel Brooks no [01:06:20] less.

Jacob: Exactly. But yeah. That's what I mean. Yeah. Like, you know, like, no one said like, "What's this weird Eraserhead thing?" They said like, "This is interesting." "You're onto

Michael: something here." "

Jacob: Keep going." Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, [01:06:30] it's, it's this sort of like enthusiastic, like-

Michael: Yes, and.

I mean, it's like- Yes ... an improv thing. Yes. Yeah. What's also interesting about that, and this is another through line of the podcast, is sort of [01:06:40] like healing through creativity. Yeah. And I think that, you know, there is a certain, w- with some validity, myth of a tortured artist.

Jacob: Yes.

Michael: Right? Yes. That we have to [01:06:50] experience pain in order to do original work.

Jacob: Yes.

Michael: And-

Jacob: Yes, and he even says that. He said, "I, I make art about a lot of evil and negative things, but that's because evil and [01:07:00] negativity exists in the world." Yeah. "So all I'm doing is, like, taking it and putting it into the art, and I don't have to suffer, you know, because it's in my art. [01:07:10] I'm, I'm creating sort of a reflection of the world knowingly, and I'm not saying it because I feel bad.

It's [01:07:20] because that's just the story." You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. "And I can remove myself from it, uh, and still present it." Yeah. You know? So.

Michael: Let's move on. [01:07:30] Category seven, man in the mirror. This category asks a fairly simple question. Did this person like their reflection, yes or no? This is not about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment [01:07:40] I had a pretty resounding yes here.

I, this is like the simplest category in the David Lynch episode for me. Yes. Anybody who has committed to this way of [01:07:50] life- Yeah ... and who has been so generative and so prolific- Yeah ... and so singular. Yeah. Uh, I, I just didn't have a lot of questions here- Yeah ... about hi- The- ... the man in the mirror moment.

Jacob: And he did talk [01:08:00] about when he was younger b- feeling self-conscious.

He even talked about being a recluse, that he would, like, just shut himself in his house.

Michael: Well, what's funny is he had a kinda shockingly normal high school. Like, there's no- [01:08:10] there's nothing... One thing about David Lynch is it's very hard to find any event or trauma- Yeah ... that would explain him.

Jacob: No. He, he w-

Michael: Right?

This seems like he is, he is creative [01:08:20] genetically.

Jacob: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, and he, like, can't help himself. Yeah. He's like, he's, like, creative c- or c- uh, curious to a fault.

Michael: Totally.

Jacob: Um, but yeah. No, I, I just wrote, [01:08:30] "The wives, the hair."

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: Isabella Rossellini. Like...

Michael: I'm gonna go with yes. I don't have to make... This isn't a hard one.

Uh, awesome. All right. Well, that [01:08:40] category was short. Move, let's move on. Category eight, coffee, cocktail, or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most wanna do with our dead celebrity. I went pretty simple here, too. I'll go [01:08:50] ahead- I know ... and offer mine. Yeah. I, I, you know, I did think about, uh... So I, I'm most fascinated by his time in Philly.

Yeah. Um- Yeah ... in the, in the '70s, when he's m- Yeah ... you know, [01:09:00] evolving as a painter and taking an interest in film. Um, one of the things he describes, and one of the fascinations he has is sort of with, um, [01:09:10] i- industrial landscapes. Mm-hmm. And I want to, uh, go on a walk with a cup of coffee- Yeah ... uh, in 1970s Philly- Mm-hmm

and, and [01:09:20] see the world that he's seeing. I mean, one thing he talks about, even in his childhood, is that it's all there. He was, he was pretty shut in. It was all there in these two blocks. Yeah. I think he is somebody who [01:09:30] can just point out the mundane- Yeah ... and the macabre. Yes. You know? Yes, yes. Um, and, and I kinda just wanna walk around.

I don't know that city at all. Yeah. Uh, [01:09:40] a- I don't, I don't have a mind's eye image, but I want to... A, again, he's a coffee guy, obviously. Yeah, obviously. All I wanna do is ride shotgun. And, and because I, I, I, [01:09:50] I am interested in his transcendental meditation practice. Yeah. And I wanna talk with him about that.

Yeah. But I also wanna talk about how he observes that.

Friend: Mm-hmm.

Michael: You know? Yeah. And what [01:10:00] he... A- and I guess the reason I like sort of Philly in the '70s, the mental image I barely have of it, is that that's not a place where I expect a whole lot, you know, all other [01:10:10] things being equal-

Jacob: Mm-hmm ...

Michael: of- of unconscious spiritual juice-

Jacob: Yeah

but may

Michael: be there.

Jacob: It's, well, it's like a, a deep f- sort of, [01:10:20] like, urban decay. Yeah. You know? It's like, it's like, uh, 'cause he was fascinated with, like, decaying things, so it's like a whole city and decay and like you just- Exactly ... he would, it's like- And

Michael: [01:10:30] Romero's just down the street- I know, right? ... at this time.

Yeah. Which I love. And they, like, I, I did, there's apparently a documentary about the midnight movies. Did you see this? No. And these whole midnight movies, I mean, that's a thing we didn't also talk about [01:10:40] with Eraserhead, but just to tell the story.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: The movie becomes this word of mouth cult classic- Yeah

and just is in the theater for years and years. Yeah. It's a toy. That's, [01:10:50] like, the definition of a slow burn. Yeah. I don't think that's possible anymore. If anything has attention these days, it becomes the biggest thing ever- I- ... and a flash in the

Jacob: pan ... in a, in a funny way, I [01:11:00] do think that, like, not just YouTube, but, like, the concept of YouTube is that way because you're seeing a lot of movies now, especially horror films, come out from [01:11:10] YouTubers.

Michael: Hmm.

Jacob: Who, yeah, like, they just either made something years and years ago that went viral or they've been making stuff for a long time. But YouTube, I mean, you [01:11:20] literally, there's stuff on there, like, 20 years now, you know? So, like, I think that is slowly replacing the sort of cult- Yeah ... location.

Michael: I'd like to believe that.

Jacob: I think [01:11:30] it is. Yeah. 'Cause it's, it's democratized. It's, like, very low barrier to entry. Yeah. Uh, David Lynch loved YouTube. Yeah. You know?

Michael: All right. Well, if David Lynch loved YouTube, then I suppose I should [01:11:40] too. Um, all right. Yeah. What'd you have for coffee cocktail?

Jacob: Uh, I, it's, it's You gotta, you gotta choose coffee.

Michael: Yeah. You're gonna have to.

Jacob: There's a scene [01:11:50] that he talked about that he would do. He got into this routine, like, later in life where he would be at his house in LA, but he would, um, be hanging out in [01:12:00] his workshop, which was sort of like an outdoor workshop. So imagine, like, a big outdoor patio. There's, like, paintings around, probably some sorts of chairs and things.

Wasn't it on

Michael: his roof? That's what [01:12:10] I remember

Jacob: recently. It was part of it, too. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, roof. I mean, it was just all over. He had like- Yeah, yeah ... a compound where you just go wherever, you know? But he had, like, a workshop, like, with, like, tools and machinery and stuff, and he would- He had

Michael: [01:12:20] $70 million.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: That's true. That's true. He had, he had

Michael: a setup. Yeah, so.

Jacob: Several setups. Right. But he would go out at, like, sunset [01:12:30] and, uh, he would have, you know, either a glass of red wine or a pack of cigarettes or, you know, a cup of coffee, and he would just go out there and work on whatever he [01:12:40] wanted to work on, you know?

There wasn't, like, any goal or pretension or anything. It would just be kind of like a, a ritual. Yeah. You know? So honestly, I just wanna, [01:12:50] like, hang out in that space- Yeah ... and we're... We might not even be talking very much. He might be smearing some paint on a wall, and I might be over in a corner, you [01:13:00] know, like- With a

Michael: microphone in a bathtub.

Jacob: Yeah. Yes. Truly, yeah. "David, have you s- "Check it out." "Check out these acoustics." Yeah. I'm like... There you go. Yeah. And then maybe we'll, like, come together [01:13:10] and we'll, "Oh, yeah, what are you working on, David?" Yeah. You know? And, uh, and, you know, have a, have sit, like, you know, sit down, have a cup of coffee, take a break, and then kinda get back to it.

[01:13:20] But I've been... Like, the older I get, the more I've been, like, uh, really enjoying the concept of, like, co-working spaces with friends.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: As... And, and not that I like... Not that you're, [01:13:30] like, working on a project together, but it's kind of like a check that like, "Okay, I'm gonna work on this project. You're gonna work on this project," and it's like a gym buddy-

Michael: Yeah

Jacob: but for, like, creativity.

Michael: [01:13:40] Yeah. Yeah,

Jacob: yeah,

Michael: yeah.

Jacob: So, so I wanna do that with David Lynch.

Michael: That's a nice way of putting it.

Jacob: Yeah.

Michael: Okay. Well, Jacob Weiss, uh, we have arrived. Our [01:13:50] final category, the Case for the Upward Staircase. In this category, it's pretty simple. We make a case for the upward staircase and this c- person's contribution to the stream of life.

Uh- [01:14:00] I mean, in a way I don't think that we need to say a whole lot. It's kind of covered it all. I think the contribution here is extraordinary. What, what is interesting, or one thing that is interesting to me here [01:14:10] is that one thing that has been kind of with Famous and Gravy from the beginning, there's this book, I think I've got it on here.

Yeah, it's right here. Um, Monsters [01:14:20] by Claire Dederer. It's really good. It's about, it's about, um, how do we make peace with artists who have problematic biographies? Hmm.

Jacob: Mm-hmm.

Michael: Um, and so [01:14:30] like Polanski, Woody Allen, like there's a lot of like- Yeah ... it's a really good book. It's got a lot of attention. Yeah. One thing she says in there that I've just n- like, like sandpaper, have not been able to get out of my head-

is, uh, [01:14:40] is the idea that in, in modern life, biography has a way of intruding- Hmm ... into our interpretations. Yeah. [01:14:50] I, David, and we've talked more about the output than his actual, like, events in life in some ways. Yeah. Like, his biography doesn't [01:15:00] unlock or tell you anything, and that I find- Kind of relieving in a way.

Yeah. I don't need to know the guy any better- No ... to be completely fascinated by [01:15:10] his work.

Jacob: Yeah, yeah.

Michael: And, and I feel like there's something in there around, you know, that tapping into that deep creative intuition. Yes. Yeah. That, [01:15:20] um, that, that speaks to that. Yeah. That, that, that I saw that, and therefore I don't need it explained, and therefore I'm only, e- even though we've been talking about his life for the last hour, um, [01:15:30] plus-

um, uh, I actually don't need, I don't feel a burning desire to understand his biography any better- No ... in order to, like, celebrate [01:15:40] his life.

Jacob: No.

Michael: You know?

Jacob: Definitely not.

Michael: No. Um, so part of what, I mean, I guess what, the case for The Upward Staircase to me is pretty self-evident. That he did that, [01:15:50] that he did it so successfully, and that we can kind of see it even if you don't like his art, to your point number three.

Yeah. He did a lot of art I don't care for. Yeah. That's actually kind of the point. I like

Jacob: it,

Michael: yeah. [01:16:00] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, and, and I don't know. Is there anything to even add to that, Jacob?

Jacob: Something that he said, um, which speaks to this conversation and everything else. He talked about [01:16:10] how, um, s- well, he was talking about movies, but you can think about it as anything, that the best type of story that you can tell is a story that keeps on [01:16:20] going after it ends.

Michael: Hmm.

Jacob: Right? And he gave the example of Chinatown, right? I don't know if you've seen Chinatown. Oh, yeah. But, like, the movie ends, and technically the credits roll, [01:16:30] but you sit there and you're like, "No, there's more to, there's, there's more-" Yeah, we're not done here. Right, yeah ... like, yeah, there's more stuff going on.

Yeah. But, like, but I think the, with his life, like, you know, it's [01:16:40] technically over, but the, the work, the contribution, the philosophy, the adjectives- The adjectives, yeah. ... everything about it is like it's continuing on [01:16:50] because it wasn't sort of like a, a story that kind of has a neat and tidy- It's not bounded

Michael: by his heartbeat or by his- Yeah

you know, like, pulse, right? It's, it's, it- It's, it's [01:17:00] bounded more by him as a vector ...

Jacob: uh, yeah, a vector or, like, a seed.

Michael: Yeah.

Jacob: You know, he, he plants a seed in your brain, and then it grows because not [01:17:10] h- he's not watering it. Like, you're watering it. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I think that that's sort of, if you're, if you're gonna live the art life like he, he wanted to, [01:17:20] like, I think that's the best way to do it, is to plant all of these seeds in the world, and then they kind of bear fruit even if you're not around.

Archival: It's [01:17:30] moving to me that there doesn't seem to be a lot of sadness in you about Catherine because it seems like you haven't, that she's still here with you. Yeah, no, I, I think, um, [01:17:40] you know, uh, they say meditation helps with this kind of thing. You know, we're all one really, and, [01:17:50] uh, nothing ever disappears, and I wish that she was still around physically But she's [01:18:00] not.

And, but, um, like I said, she's, um, around just the same[01:18:10]

Michael: Speed round. Uh, plugs for past shows. Jacob, uh, if people [01:18:20] enjoyed the, uh, you are the best person in the world- Thank God ... to ask this question. If people enjoyed this episode, what else might they check out- Uh ... from the back catalog?

Jacob: I had to go with another David, [01:18:30] David Bowie.

Michael: That's who I went with too. I know.

It's- Okay. But it's kind of the same- But- There's a mirror reflection there ...

Jacob: I'm, but I'm ta- but that's what I... Intuition. Yeah. I mean, like we, it's the right answer. And, and

Michael: their paths [01:18:40] crossed.

Jacob: Yes. No, true. Yeah, Twin Peaks. No, truly. I mean, it's, and, and on the surface level it's beautiful because it's like David Bowie, he was a musician, but most of his [01:18:50] output was not music, it was everything else.

David, or, uh, Lynch, filmmaker, but most of his output was, like, everything else. They were just these, like, [01:19:00] bubbling- Yeah ... creative souls, you know?

Michael: Episode 82, the, that's the re-release, Rebel Rebel, David Bowie. Uh, you know what? I'm gonna say the same one. I, I, I might have a second one- It's [01:19:10] just right. It's just right

it's too perfect. The, the, check out the David episode through the back catalog. All right. Here is a preview for the next episode of Famous and Gravy. He [01:19:20] dictated his most famous work from a prison cell to a writer of romance novels who was his cellmate.

Archival: Ah.

Michael: Famous [01:19:30] and Gravy listeners, we love hearing from you.

If you wanna reach out with a comment, a question, or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to [01:19:40] our website and our social channels. Famous and Gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me, Michael Osborne. This episode is produced and edited by Jacob Weiss.

Thank you, Jacob, [01:19:50] so much for sitting in the hot seat. Uh, original music by Kevin Strang. Thanks so much. See you next time.[01:20:00] [01:20:10] [01:20:20] [01:20:30] [01:20:40] [01:20:50] [01:21:00] [01:21:10] [01:21:20] [01:21:30] [01:21:40] [01:21:50] [01:22:00] [01:22:10] [01:22:20] [01:22:30] [01:22:40] [01:22:50] [01:23:00] [01:23:10] [01:23:20] [01:23:30] [01:23:40] [01:23:50] [01:24:00] [01:24:10] [01:24:20] [01:24:30] [01:24:40] [01:24:50] [01:25:00] [01:25:10] [01:25:20] [01:25:30] [01:25:40] [01:25:50] [01:26:00] [01:26:10] [01:26:20] [01:26:30] [01:26:40] [01:26:50] [01:27:00] [01:27:10] [01:27:20] [01:27:30] [01:27:40] [01:27:50] [01:28:00] [01:28:10] [01:28:20] [01:28:30]

Archival: Damn it. '78? [01:28:40] Oh. Alec Guinness[01:28:50] [01:29:00] [01:29:10] [01:29:20] [01:29:30] [01:29:40] [01:29:50] [01:30:00] [01:30:10] [01:30:20] [01:30:30] [01:30:40] [01:30:50] [01:31:00] [01:31:10] [01:31:20] [01:31:30] [01:31:40] [01:31:50] [01:32:00] [01:32:10] [01:32:20] [01:32:30] [01:32:40] [01:32:50] [01:33:00] [01:33:10] [01:33:20] [01:33:30] [01:33:40] [01:33:50] [01:34:00] [01:34:10] [01:34:20] [01:34:30] [01:34:40] [01:34:50]

Michael: Have you done podcasts before? I

Archival: thought I was talking to you

Michael: about this. Like, you've never been- I've never been behind the mic. [01:35:00] This is the first time behind the mic? Yeah. This is so perfect. Yeah. It's so perfect. Yeah.