143 National Treasure (Dolly Parton)

Transcript of this episode

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Michael: This is Famous and Gravy, biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. Now here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity. This person died 2026, age 80. She met her husband, an asphalt contractor, at a laundromat when she was 18.

Sara: Dolly? Everybody's gonna get this on the first clue. [00:00:30] Uh, y- you know, I mean... In 1976, she became the first woman to host her own syndicated television series. A decade later, she had an hour-long variety show on a major network. Dolly Parton? After wildfires devastated her home county in 2016, she organized a telethon that raised more than $9 million for relief efforts.

Friend: That's amazing. Don't know her. Okay, awesome. Oh my God, you're the first person who didn't get it on the first clue. [00:01:00] Dad, thank you for making time for this one. Um, there are very few people left who I know who might not know who this dead celebrity is, and you're one of them. Dolly Parton? God damn it. Well, I'm glad you're up to speed.

Michael: Yes, today's dead celebrity is Dolly Parton.

Archival: So I just decided that I would do something that would at least get the attention. Once they got past the shock of the ridiculous way I looked [00:01:30] and all that, then they would see there was parts of me to be appreciated. I'm very real where it counts, and that's inside, and as far as the, my outlook on life and the way I care about people and the way I care about myself and the things that I care about.

But I just chose to do this, and it's, um, show business is a money-making joke, and I've just always liked telling jokes, you know? But do you ever feel that you're a joke, that people make fun of you? Oh, I know they make fun of me. But actually, all these years, the people, [00:02:00] you know, have, has thought the joke was on me, but it's actually been on the public.

I know exactly what I'm doing, and I can change it at any time, or I make more jokes about myself than, than anybody because I enjoy... I know, like I say, I am sure of myself as a person. I'm sure of my talent. And to me, and I'm sure of, of my love and for life and that sort of thing. I'm very content. I like the kind of person that I am, so I can afford to piddle around and do-diddle around with makeups and clothes and stuff because I [00:02:30] am secure with, uh, myself.

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne, and on this show, we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves? Today, Dolly Parton, died 2026, age 80.

Okay, so we are doing something very [00:03:00] different on Famous and Gravy today. We are releasing this episode on September 25th, 925, because we wanna be part of the online campaign to enshrine September 25th as Dolly Parton Day henceforth. Normally on the show, we wait a year until a celebrity has died, but because of this 925 effort, uh, we decided, screw it, let's go ahead and do a Dolly Parton episode.

Another way in which we're breaking form today is I'm joined by m- many co-hosts. Um, basically, as soon as Dolly died, my [00:03:30] phone blew up, and everybody's like, "I wanna be on the Dolly Parton episode." And I said, "Screw it. Let's all be on the Dolly Parton episode." So I'm gonna introduce, uh, all of the co-hosts today.

I'm gonna start with Nichelle Carr. Nichelle is a producer and lawyer in LA. She recently joined us for the James Brown episode. She also helped out with Prince and Gregory Peck and James Earl Jones. Nichelle, thanks for showing up for the Dolly Parton episode. Happy to be here. All right. Next, John Watts, who's based here in Austin.

He has a degree in library [00:04:00] sciences. He's also, uh, our go-to co-host for all daytime TV figures, including Steve Irwin, Richard Simmons, and Jerry Springer. Uh, John also helped out with the Michael Creighton and Sinéad O'Connor episodes. John, thanks for being here. Honored to be here, Michael. Thank you. All right.

And finally, joining us from the heart of Dollywood in East Tennessee, another over-educated lawyer, uh, Sarah Murphy, who was on the Robin Williams episode, Katharine Graham, Queen [00:04:30] Elizabeth II, Harper Lee, Kobe Bryant, and Waylon Jennings. I'm actually in Nashville, though. It's, uh ... I don't wanna lie about my location.

Okay. So you're in Tennessee. You're in Tennessee. That's- Yeah, I'm in Tennessee ... I'm gonna dive straight in and just go to category one, grading the first line of her obituary. Dolly Parton, a rags to riches rhinestones daughter of Appalachia, who for six decades ruled country music and beyond with an outsized personality and [00:05:00] down-home wit that enshrined her as one of America's most cherished originals, died on Tuesday in Nashville.

She was 80. Sarah, I'm gonna start with you. I think seven, eight. I was actually pretty happy with it. I, and mainly because, um, it was true to her, it spoke to her, um, scale, I think. Um, I did look up whether or not outsize was a, [00:05:30] a, a reasonable variation of what I would have said outsized, but otherwise it was nothing like- I had the same question.

You, yeah, is that outsize? Is it supposed to- Yeah, it's okay. It's okay evidently grammatically, but it really bugged me when I was reading it. Yes. Me, me too. When I was reading it out loud, I was like, "Isn't this supposed to be outsized?" D- Yeah. It's not a proper adjective if it's not outsized. I mean, I have friends, like, I feel like every time somebody mentions Dolly Parton we'll just get a national treasure.

Sara: But otherwise, I, I actually did like the [00:06:00] rags to rhinestone, daughter of Appalachia. Like, and then even like the down home wit and en- enshrining, I just felt like they were hitting on a lot of like... I thought it was pretty artfully done actually. And so- I, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I probably would go with an eight, maybe even a nine.

I, I was pretty happy with this, honestly. Nichelle? I picked some bones, yeah. Yeah. I got some bones to pick. Right. So all the things that you say are right with it, Sarah, I agree with, right? Like rags to [00:06:30] rhinestones, daughter of Appalachia, six decades, ruled country music. I was like, "Uh," she would even say that she didn't rule the whole time.

Nichelle: She had to kinda rise and come back again, you know what I mean? But the only reason I quibble with that is 'cause I'm like, that's where you could have talked about her as a songwriter. She's written 3,000 songs, we now famously know. The idea that they didn't get that word in there, and it's also a huge source of her wealth.

When you talk about her as a songwriter, then you're actually hat tipping to I Will Always Love [00:07:00] You and Jolene, and you know what I mean? Yeah. And that was a huge part of her wealth, which then gets into her philanthropy, which they actually missed in here too. Now I think about another thing that they missed.

Um, so that really jumped out at me and angered me, apparently. Um- Wow. And- Yeah, those are- When they say- Yeah, yeah ... well, I mean, I just... It was, look, I'm in a Dolly Parton T-shirt, so- Yeah ... you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm- Bring it in ... I'm that, I'm that person. But when they say most cherished originals, like, one, I agree with National Treasure.

Like sh- I feel like National Treasure, she was the first [00:07:30] person I remember National Treasure being attributed to. Mm-hmm. And then when they say most cherished, why wouldn't they say broadly cherished, universally cherished? Like, they published an article a couple years before about how she's the one thing that all Americans can agree on, so I felt like they undersold it.

Like, they get that she is a huge figure in, kind of, American culture. Like, that is, is pointed at. But yeah, they missed some really key, key, key points that I just, I had to dock them. John? [00:08:00] Hmm. I echo so many things. I think my, when I... This is a memory that, from when I was 22 in Chicago, walking down the street, very hungover.

John: And this is going somewhere, I promise. I'm very hungover and someone from this publication in Chicago was on the street, it's called The Reader, and they were on the street asking people who they'd like to be- if they could be anybody. And I remember I just looked at them, and I was like, "Well, Dolly Parton, of course."

They were like, "Why?" And I was like, "She's an [00:08:30] American treasure. Who doesn't wanna be an American treasure?" So that, that phrase is what I'm missing. I know that they're here with, like, America's cherished. Could we, could we... I just wanted to tweak it. I know they probably couldn't fit this in the first sentence, but the humanitarianism, the philanthropy- Yeah

was just such a big piece of her, especially later in life, that we kind of, especially in libraries, we knew her for, um, with her book donations. It was just such a huge, um, contribution that they couldn't qu- quite squeeze it all in. Yeah. I gave them credit [00:09:00] for ruled country music and beyond. So the idea was, like, that she was like a queen, and she kept being a queen.

Sara: Yeah. And then enshrined is pretty strong. So the idea that, like, she's gonna be recognized and adored as being this cherished original, um, I think was where I got a little more comfortable with it. Yeah. I, uh, w- uh, so that's where I started off 10 out of 10, and hearing the three of y'all, I'm like, I actually thought this...

Michael: I, let me talk about the positives. I think we kinda hit on it. Rags to rhinestones. I [00:09:30] like rhinestones in there. I think that, um... And I do like the, I do like the, the word cherished quite a bit, and enshrined. And outsized personality I feel like, uh, you're right. I wanted a D on the end, especially when I was reading it.

I wanted outsized personality. Um, but that said, your points, especially yours, Nichelle, are really resonating. Like, we kind of haven't gotten at her superpower thing of being this, you know, universally [00:10:00] beloved high Q score figure. Like, there's a small number of people who are as universally beloved, and maybe, maybe nobody else.

I mean, the awards she's won, the hits she had, how prolific she was, to your songwriting point. I, all of that is missing. So your bones have, uh, have been picked, and have- ... and have lowered my score. I, real quick, I just need to say, rags to rhinestones is a phrase that I believe she used while she was living.

Nichelle: Mm-hmm. New York Times did not come up with that. They don't get credit for that [00:10:30] either. I was gonna say, I was g- That's right. That's right. Yes. Read them down. I'm just, they've done it. Yeah. I've had it with them so many times. They did a great- Michael Stuhlsatz- Since the interview, the writer ... I hear rhinestones.

Michael: Sure. It's true. It's a hard job, y'all. It's not easy. Have you met this poor man, Sam Roberts? Oh, God. God bless him. Ugh. Okay. No, that's good. So Sarah, you went eight. Jon, you went nine. Nichelle? I was eight. You're an eight. Okay. I'm gonna [00:11:00] give it a nine. I'm gonna give it a nine. I think it's still very, very good.

I think overall, very good job, but not excellent. I was hoping for 10 out of 10. We didn't quite get there. All right, uh, let's move on. Category two, five things I love about you. So here we are going to develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who Dolly Parton was and how she lived.

Um, but I'm gonna start with you, Nichelle. I put her innate, yet imperfect intersectionality. I love this. Okay. She ... Yeah. She really kind of [00:11:30] hits across gender, class, and race, and her work, without her having to say so, and I think you might get to this later, without her having to be explicit in her speaking words, if you look at her lyrics, if you look at her actions, if you look at what she was focused on and who she spent time with, her views on each of those issues become really quite clear.

Nichelle: So I have a bit of a personal story with Dolly. So, um, as you mentioned, I'm a producer, and when I was even more of a baby producer than I am [00:12:00] now, I wanted Dolly to star in a series that a friend of mine was writing, had created and written about his own experience with his own grandmother, who was the founder of a megachurch in Kentucky.

So very close, right? Um, and so I wrote a letter to her, and I'm just gonna read a couple paragraphs 'cause I think it explicates this kind of broad love, especially amongst different communities of, of Dolly. "Dear Ms. Dolly Parton, I've been a fan of yours my entire life. I grew up listening to your music, watching your television show and your films, both [00:12:30] theatrical and TV movies, with my parents.

All three of us loved your music, your talent, your carefree sense of humor, and especially your genuine love of life and ev- and of everyone around you. I'm a Black woman, born and raised in northern California, and my mother and father were born and raised on farms in Texas and Mississippi respectively.

They are the same generation as you, and having grown up in the Jim Crow South, it was meaningful for them to be able to show their only child a cultural slice of the South that [00:13:00] was joyful and non-threatening, and it may have been healing for them, too, to see a southern white person, a country music star no less, who treated all people with love and kindness."

"Ms. Parton, you are the only person in America and on Earth who has a significant loyal fan base among both the Christian community and the secular community, including people of color and LGBTQ folks. You are the one person who can speak directly to both groups and persuade them to [00:13:30] perhaps take a second look at each other.

Through the entertainment, emotion, and music of the show I would like you to star in, you can show both Christian conservatives and secular progressives the humanity of the other, which in today's world would be a heroic achievement. Thank you for giving the world so much music and joy. Thank you for being so true to yourself, and in doing so, showing us that we can do the same and still find love and happiness."

Michael: You sent that letter? So I sent it to her manager, but I got a personal response [00:14:00] from her manager. Totally. So I'm pretty sure she saw this. Like, I think it's the kind of thing that he would have handed over to her 'cause it would have just made her feel good, but I also think the content of the show, which involved, like, gay sex scandals and all the kind of drama, she would've been like, "Oh, my God, no."

Absolutely not. But his response was very much about it, like I said, it was personal response, and I still have it. He explained all the timing reasons why she couldn't do it. So I think it was a real response. Yeah. That's awesome. That's amazing. And when was it again? It was, [00:14:30] yeah, 2018. I mean, that, so that's before the Judd Apatow, Dolly Parton's America podcast series came out.

Mm. Mm. I mean, something I wanna sort of like- I got there first, Judd ... That's what I was gonna say. I mean, I, I, I, I gotta say, I missed- this until I, I, I missed Dolly in a big way until I heard that series. I did not know about her broad appeal. I did not know about her ability to reach communities that would otherwise have strong [00:15:00] disagreements.

Growing up, obviously, she was, like, the one, she was the punchline, right? Boob jokes. And, and she makes g- countless jokes about that, you know, throughout her career. Well, there ain't nothing big about me but my mouth and my boobs. Let's just hope I never have to have bypass heart surgery. Whoa. My God. It would take a team of engineers to bypass them, wouldn't it?

Archival: Hello. I always say I'd have probably been six feet tall if I hadn't have got so bunched up at the top. Your fans have actually said that you should run for president. Is, is that something that you'd [00:15:30] even be interested in, to, to run for office? No. Don't you think we've had enough boobs in the White House?

Michael: I did not know that she had, like, sort of slowly accumulated this, um, this iconic status. I mean, it was part of her image. It was part of her gimmick. Like, she used it very kind of intentionally and calculatedly. But I just wanna say that her concerts do look like this, like, broad cross-section, like public census.

Nichelle: Mm. Mm-hmm. All the things that people say- Yeah ... having been to her concerts, they do look just like that. My, my favorite- They do, yeah ... I think, [00:16:00] I think they get at that on Dolly Parton's America, and there's that, I love that tweet where that one, uh, somebody says- ... "That majestic bitch just busted out a pan flute."

Sara: Um, or something. It's, like, 14 instruments. It is crazy. I mean, Jon, the story you told a second ago about, you know, being stopped by somebody in the street of Chicago, you came to Dolly at a pretty young... When did you come to Dolly as a fan? Oh, she had the TV show in the '80s That we watched. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it was a special.

John: It came on right af- on Friday nights right [00:16:30] after the Disney program. I knew you'd bring daytime TV into this. Yeah. So you watched that, and then she would do the nails. Yeah. She- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a great clip of her- Watch part on the nails ... with Patti LaBelle doing the nails. Oh, yes. I saw that.

Nichelle: Baby, the way that had me by the throat. I was like, "Okay, this is my woman." And then, um, yeah, I mean, I saw her in concert, uh, just before that interview in Chicago. Um, and, uh, it was just incredible, and the cross-section was ... I just remember thinking, like, age, race, sexuality. Like, it was just everybody was there loving on her.

Michael: [00:17:00] Sarah, you grew up with Dolly as an icon, I assume? I mean, I r- remember Islands in the Stream being ... I remember somebody's dad at, like, a kid's birthday party- And John- ... saying that, um- John's dancing to Islands- Yeah ... in the Stream in his hamburger socks. Yeah, he's- Yeah, of course. But yes, I was very aware of her as, 'cause I was from East Tennessee, so I would see her singing at anything and everything.

But when did ... I guess what I'm trying to get at is when did you become aware of her, of [00:17:30] her appeal beyond your, you know, home territory? The moment that really crystallized it for me was at a concert in 2014 at O2 in, uh, London. And it was a friend of mine had actually been to the show in Cardiff. I ... It was a full circle.

Sara: It, like, literally popped up in a Facebook memory last week, that I was like, this is maybe the moment that my life has made the most sense to me. Because I was this Tennessee girl with, like, my friend [00:18:00] from college, who's not necessarily the most obvious, like, dear friend that I was gonna make from, like, the view of a, you know, girl raised Southern Baptist coming out of East Tennessee and going to college, because he's this, like, gay New Yorker lapsed Catholic.

And but we're sitting there singing and dancing while, like, you know, Dolly's playing 12 to 14 instruments, and I literally started crying because she did Tennessee Mountain Home and Rocky Top. And when she started singing Rocky Top, [00:18:30] and my friend knew the words, and, like, I'm sitting in London hearing, like, this giant venue sing "Rocky Top," which I associate with, like, football games and I don't know Yeah.

Archival: Yeah, yeah, I see football. Yeah It was, it was really, really moving to be like, "This is..." Like, this is East Tennessee in London. You know? I get... It, it really did feel like that much of home, and she, she made it that. And it, like, the specificity of her music [00:19:00] allowed it to be universal in that way. But I think for some of those songs, because they were so deeply love songs to, you know, my part of the country, it was really beautiful to see it shared.

Michael: Nichelle, did you wanna say something else in your point number one before we go? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I have to... I, I did say that it was imperfect, right? Yeah. And I think I have to kind of get into that. Like I said, gender, class, and race, her work touches on all of those things, and there's a real clear through line.[00:19:30]

Nichelle: And so kind of taking them in reverse order, like, race was definitely unfamiliar territory for her. Like, she, she didn't talk about it explicitly. Well, when she did, say, like, in her song In the Ghetto in 1969, you can see that 1969 was a time when everyone was thinking about it. Like, this is around the time that rebellions were happening all over the country, so she's thinking about it.

She's talking about it. When you look at the lyrics of the song, it's one of the few times that she doesn't quite have the empathy that she has for other [00:20:00] characters in her songs. Hmm. Like, she just kind of fumbles it a bit. Yeah. Like, she's very much talking from the paternalistic, like, "Are we going to turn our eyes away?

Do we not see the child?" And you know, and it ends with this angry young man who has a gun lying in the street. Like, it's just... It's not great. It's not perfect. It's not great. Yeah, it's not great. Yeah, it's not great at all. And then there's, of course, the Dixie Stampede.

Archival: A show full of music, tricks, food, and [00:20:30] fun is now called by a different name. Dolly Parton's Dixie Stampede is dropping the word Dixie to be called simply Dolly Parton's Stampede. In a statement, Dolly said, quote, "Our shows currently are identified by where they are located. Some examples are Smoky Mountain Adventures or Dixie Stampede.

We also recognize that attitudes change and feel that by streamlining the names of our shows, it will remove any confusion or concerns about our shows and will help [00:21:00] our efforts to expand into new cities." The announcement came from World Choice Investments, the company that operates the dinner shows in Pigeon Forge; Branson, Missouri; and Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.

Nichelle: And the problem with the Dixie Stampede, I think a lot of people boil it down to just the word Dixie. That's not it. It was that- Mm-mm ... it presented the Civil War as, like, a friendly fight between neighbors. I think what is special about her and race and redeems a lot of this is her understanding that her whiteness and her [00:21:30] perspective as white is just as subjective as everyone else is forced to feel subjective about their perspective as a person of color or a queer person or what have, or a woman, what have you.

She understands that that is subjective, that whiteness is not normal. It's not standard. So there's a famous quote, "I understand people having to make themselves known and feel seen," which she's saying about Black Lives Matter, and she's like, "Do Black lives matter? And of course Black lives matter. Do we think our little white asses are the only ones that matter?

No." [00:22:00] It's a great quote. I thought - It's a great quote. Yeah. And I think she gets it because her brand of whiteness was othered- Too. Yeah. She was not part of mainstream white. Like, and I think her natural gift from acting comes from all this empathy, this ability she has to connect with all of these different people who she doesn't live their experience, but she observes their experiences, and she takes them in, right?

And then of course, we get to 9 to 5. People think of as a working women's anthem. It's a working people's anthem. Not a working class anthem, [00:22:30] a working people's anthem. And that last chorus, which people like to skip over, I'm sorry. She is giving it to you straight, no chaser. She says, "9 to 5, yeah, they got you where they want you."

Mm-hmm. "There's a better life, and you think about it, don't you? It's a rich man's game, no matter what they call it, and you spend your life putting money in his wallet." Mm. And she repeats that twice. Yeah. And I will say, that gets into gender, but I'll, I'll leave it that. I'll just say she was a feminist in practice and deed, not in theory or [00:23:00] word, so she didn't really embrace the term feminism.

But that is, that is about, like, the manipulation of politics kind of writ large. But she absolutely was a self-determined woman, and she loved and appreciated and empathized with men as well, which I think is what we think of true women's self-determination, or is a part of women's self-determination today.

So I think she was, she was radical in all of these ways, and there's a through line through all of her work that connects them all simultaneously. She was a communicator, and [00:23:30] so she knew that the bulk of her audience had some understandings that she had to communicate to that audience, right? And so when you see things like the white savior complex and In the Ghetto, like, that is what you would be selling if you were trying to get people to give or donate to or to see that there was some type of cause that they could help with.

Michael: Yeah. And, and then when you see things like her recoiling at the word feminist, she was like, "Well, no, no, no, I'm not a man-hater. I mean, I think women da da..." You [00:24:00] know. A- and so, but I think she had to- She hates the connotation- She, she was... Yeah ... not the deeper idea. There was a way- Yeah ... in which, like you, like you have to understand her as also being effectively communicating in the place where she lives or is, you know.

Sara: But I think it's really beautiful, and I think her music... I mean, all of country music, if, if you look at the history of country music, it's just very, very sad that it was segregated in the way that it was, 'cause it, I think... I don't know. I just think that we lost so much by that segregation [00:24:30] and marketing.

And I do think that that was one of her strengths, is that she sh- like, whatever the talent was, she wanted to participate in it, and she knew that, like, country music was ultimately soul music marketed primarily to white women. Well, go ahead and give me your thing number two for five things I love about you.

I wanna talk about Dolly as a daughter of Appalachia, and specifically a daughter of Tennessee. I think that those roots informed all of her ex- experience and all of her [00:25:00] music and all of her perspective. And so when we see her leaving, like she would do these early interviews and be like, "Failure's not a big deal.

Like, I've already had nothing. There's nowhere to go but up." You know? Like there was this, there was some, uh, like bravery and self-confidence involved in that, but there was also this idea, like I remember even my own friends from home, I would be like, you know, living off in foreign countries, trying to build like a certain career, and like being worried about like [00:25:30] failing at it.

And I just remember talking about it at home, and they were like, "Well, at least we'd see you more," you know? If I had to move back to Tennessee and do multi-level marketing or something. But I- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that there was, I think she had that comfort, that she had a community that knew her and loved her before she was big, and knew her and loved her, not just because she was big, but because she was theirs.

I think that when you look at how she built her life, she [00:26:00] was dedicated to giving back to that place. So when she opens Dollywood, she says, like, "I am here. I wanted, I've always wanted to, um, do something, like bring it back to Sevier County and show the world that I am as proud of you as you have always been of me."

And then when you see her, like most successful philanthropic efforts, you see the same type of local first mentality, you know. So she goes into high schools, she says, "Everybody get a [00:26:30] buddy." At the time, like high school dropout rates were like 34%. She says, "Everybody grab a buddy. If both of you graduate, I'm gonna give each of you $500.

But if either of you doesn't graduate, neither of you gets money." And the dropout rate went to 6%, because she saw a lack of education for her father being a ceiling for him, and she didn't want other people to have that experience. And so, and then from there, [00:27:00] like the Imagination Library, those 300 million books, I, I mean, that starts as a program just in Sevier County for birth to Uh, kindergarten.

And to your point about, like, class and intersectionality, it was not need-based. You know, like, this was not, uh, this was not designed to be... And I think it was more effective because there's no stigma to walking around with your Dolly books, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, the book lady gives everybody these books.

You know, like, and, and even her, like, she [00:27:30] gets all this credit for the Moderna vaccine m- which is amazing, but it was, it wasn't earmarked for Moderna. Like, she gave money to Vanderbilt Medical, and she found out later that it was- It went to this vaccine, yeah ... used for the Moderna vaccine, you know? And, like- Yeah

she, a children's hospital in Knoxville is now named after her because she was such a significant donor and did so much work with them. Like, she's famous for this quote. Like, "If you don't like the road you're walking down, then start paving another one." But I've, I've referred to her before in other episodes when we talk [00:28:00] about this idea of, like, the upward staircase or, like, how do you judge a life?

How do you mark success? And I think what I think is so beautiful is she recognized her path as so rare and so fortunate and so unlikely Yeah But also so, like, so deeply helped by her, she gives back and literally paves the road so that people from her area can have careers in entertainment. It gets at the idea that gratitude is an action word.

Michael: [00:28:30] But I guess wh- that's where I wanted to ask is, like, the famous and gravy self-reflection point for you is what, Sarah? Like, what does this, what does this show you about yourself that you now understand in terms of your own sense of purpose or what you hope to be or what you hope to achieve, you know, in, in terms of desirability?

Sara: I used to tell people that I'm from the part of Tennessee people don't wanna be from, but Dolly Parton is from there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? Like, like if you're from, like, we're, my beloved parallelogram is a very long [00:29:00] state, you know, and so there's kind of this East Tennessee identity- A long parallelogram

and then there's Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But East Tennessee is something specific, and it is rich with language and culture and song and music, and it does have this, um, preservation of... Like, I taught English at a British boarding school and the h- and kids would tell, would listen to anything I had to say about Tennessee Williams or The Great Gatsby or, but if I tried to tell them about Hamlet, they would just be, "Mm, mm."

Archival: Yeah. [00:29:30] The head of the department was like, "Well, actually, um, the part of the country Sarah is from is where Elizabethan language is best preserved," because when people go to the mountains and only talk to themselves for 100 years, they keep all the things that you make fun of in a, like, a Tes- in a Tennessee, um, accent, or, like, the long As and the Is.

Sara: Like, the stuff you have to learn to read Chaucer or Shakespeare. Yeah. I was thinking about this. Can I just say real quick- Yeah, go ahead ... I noticed that. When I moved to London, the first thing I noticed is that they say reckon, and I was like, "I'm [00:30:00] sorry. Only my Southern relatives- Yeah ... say reckon. Yeah.

Nichelle: Like, it's a proper English word. Yeah, yeah. Like, "Oh, yeah, no, I don't, I, I don't reckon I'm gonna do that." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The, uh, the what is it? I think j- I was trying to figure out who said this. I think Jeff Foxworthy, worthy is partly f- for it. Like, if you've got a Southern accent, this is, like, the two great biases in, uh, the American ear is that we, if you hear a Southern accent you deduct 100 IQ points, and if you hear a, a British accent, you add 100 IQ points.

Michael: And, and, but I do [00:30:30] think that, that, that applies to Dolly in a way, that there is something, it's, very smart woman, and because we are trained, you know, culturally to sort of hear a Southern accent and deduct IQ points, we underestimate her. When you're talking about, yeah, she embraced her roots, when I think about it, there's a lot of country stars I think who also embrace their roots.

Nichelle: I'm like, but what's so singular about Dolly? And I actually thinks it, think it's her sense of humor 'cause, like, Loretta Lynn I'm sure was very proud of her roots too. Yeah, yeah. But she didn't become what- [00:31:00] What Dolly did, I think because Dolly had this sense of humor that translated. So even people who wanted to come to her with all their preconceived notions, right?

The self-deprecating humor opens doors. Yeah. I think, you know, the beauty- And a great laugh. Yeah, a great laugh. I, like, every time I see her- Infectious person- ... her laugh is infectious ... we can just call- Yeah ... yeah, infectious personality. Like, 'cause there are lots of people who are proud of their roots and never let go of their roots, but did not expand and cross over in the way that she did.

One, I think [00:31:30] she sought it maybe- Yeah ... more than these- Mm-hmm ... other folks did. But she also had these kind of gifts and skills, her personality, and her instinct to kind of look so striking, you know, for all the amazing, wonderful reasons that she did, which are so great. Um, and I say they're so great because just the idea that she wanted to look like the town tramp is amazing.

Archival: How, how did you first start dressing in that, um, um, what's, what's the word I'm looking for? Almost oversized- Gaudy ... ga- gaudy, oversized kind of way where if your hair [00:32:00] was big, it was gonna be real big. You know? Well, I think a lot of that came though from a very serious place. That's, that was a country girl's idea of what glamour was.

Uh-huh. And when, when I, uh, you know, I didn't have any money to have stuff, and, and I've often joked about it, but it's the real truth that I patterned myself after what they considered the trash in our hometown. There was this one woman, I thought she was beautiful, and you know, she had the peroxide hair and she, you know, had it all piled up on her head, and had red fingernails and red lipstick [00:32:30] and, and, you know, wore her powder, and I just thought she was the prettiest thing I'd ever seen.

And Mama said, "I would quit looking at her. She ain't nothing but trash." And I thought, "Ooh, that's what I wanna be when I grow up, trash." That's so beautiful. I- Yeah, I love those quotes where she's like- It is so gorgeous ... her mother's saying- Yeah, that was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen, and I wanted to look like that.

John: The self-deprecating humor especially felt like that was her in to get people- Yeah, absolutely ... you know, on her side. She'd, you know, she'd say, like, "Oh, I'm like a show dog," you know? Like, "If I were gonna be a man, I'd be a drag queen." Now, you've joked that [00:33:00] if you were a man you would've been a drag queen. I always say that it's a good thing I was a woman, 'cause if I'd have been a man I would've been a drag queen, just 'cause I'm so damn gaudy.

Archival: 'Cause I like all the flash and the glitter, and you know, I just love, you know, just I love playing in my clothes. I love playing, you know, in all, in my life. I think that that really did allow her freedom that she wouldn't have had if she hadn't embraced it. 'Cause I think it, um, I mean, it's, at the end of the day, like, I'm sure there was a lot of [00:33:30] crossing between, like, the, the Dolly presentation and the real Dolly, but I also feel like- It was more clear with her that there was a person behind all of that, that we were never gonna get, never gonna see.

Sara: That, you know, and, and her mom says, "Keep something back for yourself." And I feel like you kind of, you understand that to be true. Mm-hmm. You, and we accept it in a way we don't often with other celebrities. The difference between authenticity and performed authenticity is really hard with her. It's hard to [00:34:00] know who the, quote-unquote, "real Dolly" is, because she comes across as so unbelievably authentic.

Michael: John, what do you got for number three? Let's move on. Oh my gosh, m- mine sort of is in the vein of, uh, of, of what Sarah said. But, uh, maybe a deeper dive into Dollywood. I don't think anybody... I don't know, I haven't announced this yet, but I'm getting my PhD in Dolly Parton studies and the intersection of amusement parks.

Uh-huh. Eh. Amusement Partonology. [00:34:30] I'm kidding. That's not real. That's not a real program, but it should be a real program. Yeah. Yeah. Um, because this is what I care about most, those two things connected. Dolly Parton and theme parks? Yeah. Is, um, a theme park, you give me those two together and it's just magic.

John: And- It's everything you need ... it's 2023, and I'm with my sister and her kids on the road, and we stop at Dollywood. And I didn't know what to expect. I had, I'd always wanted to go. But I just... And I, I think the, the reason I wanted to talk about Dollywood, and I named this Rags to Roller [00:35:00] Coasters, take that New York Times.

And, um, I just was, I didn't know what to expect, because I always thought, I just think it's weird when people create a monument to themselves, and I was like, "I hope it's not that," because I have so many hopes. You know? That, 'cause I always loved that she was sort of, um, just so real. But I, it's not so much that Dollywood is this monument to herself, it's, it, but looking at the story of it after I'd been, it's this argument that she won, and it just happened to be made out of, uh, you know, like, wood and [00:35:30] steel and roller coasters.

Um, that, like, this, the people of, uh, Sevier County, where she grew up, had, really deserved this sort of, their version of the Magic Kingdom, um, without needing a plane ticket and a hotel room. And so, you know, that goes back to her upbringing there. But I think, like, it's just so interesting to me how she got involved with it too, sort of this, um, failing, flailing park that was already ex- it already existed.

I think it was called Silver Dollar City. She wanted to put her name on it and, and get it, [00:36:00] get it on track. And I think the best part about it was al- even her accountants were like, "This is the worst idea anyone's ever had." "Why are you getting into amusement parks? You're Dolly Parton." Like, you just did the movie Straight Talk, and John Watts was the only person who loved that movie.

Yeah. That's not true. He was actually the only person- I, I still remember the line, "I went to the University of Screw You." "Screw you."

"Get down off the cross, honey, somebody needs the wood." It doesn't matter.[00:36:30]

You need to honk your own horn. And that was just like, oh, I love that movie. But they were like, "Okay, we don't know if this is gonna really work out." But I think she just went and stuck her neck out, not because she wanted to, like, make a really good investment. It was her heart was in the right place, and so she took this risk.

And I think this just made sense to me that it looked like she did this in other areas of her life, too, where if she knew her heart was in the right place, she was willing to take the risk to do the thing that was hard or [00:37:00] unpopular, um, especially with her philanthropic work and also what she said, you know, just about the gay community and the trans community in the '80s and '90s when nobody was talking about that.

Archival: Didn't you recently though throw support to, uh The LGBT community? Oh, I'm always, uh, encouraged. I'm not encouraged. They've, they've made me the poster child, I think, only because I'm so outspoken as far as just being accepting of people in general. I do not believe that we should [00:37:30] criticize and judge other people.

I think we should be accepting and loving. We are all God's children. We are who we are, and we should allow, be allowed to be who we are. Did any of the faith-based communities that deeply believe the other way take umbrage with you? Oh, absolutely. They did? Oh, yes. I get it all the time. I keep saying, "Well, if you're the fine Christian that you're, you think you are, why are you judging people?"

John: She could stick her neck out and she did that here. And I remember, [00:38:00] um, yeah, there, there was an interview in the, uh, Associated Press. Uh, somebody said that she, she built it because she saw people like her get priced out of these big amusement parks. You know, it's like Disney World and Disneyland are so expensive now.

And then, you know, you have Six Flags, but that's just kind of like going to, I don't know, a gas station with a roller coaster in it. And then you have- Ouch. Then you have Dollywood, which is like- I like Six Flags ... it is not the same as Dollywood. Yeah. No, I'm sure it's not. Yeah ... it's, which is just like [00:38:30] this beautifully, like, themed, lovely place.

I think, take the hot take, but it's better than Disney World. I'm putting it out there. I am a season pass holder. Yes. Word. My daughter has gone for her last two birthdays. We will be back this year for her birthday. Like, it's like, it's, it's near and dear to my heart. So I, I do love that place, and it's amazing how it's grown because when you first went, it really was like all these silver dollar city spots, but it has like artisans.

Sara: Like, so it has [00:39:00] people, like, blowing glass, and they have all these like kind of old skills that don't necessarily have a home in other places, that you can watch blacksmiths work, or you can get like, you know, something made for your house. So there's that element. There are the shows, which, uh, initially were a little bit more like community theater, and now, like, people are really amazing performers, both locally and, like, from all over the world who come in and perform.

Nichelle: Can I just say my favorite thing about Dollywood, it was a way for her [00:39:30] to put her family to work. Mm-hmm. And this, this is such a thing. When you become famous, especially if you come from a disadvantaged place and you become famous, what do you do with everyone who you, you are now the supporter, the benefactor, the meal ticket for?

How do you manage that? That often drags you down. And for her to have Dollywood, like, I literally thought of it as a vehicle for her to put her family to work, and I was like, brilliant. And of course, there are, like, critiques. Like, there are people who, you know, say that Dolly's a cultural [00:40:00] capitalist and she's kind of selling these tropes back to the public, and To the strict sense of capitalism?

Michael: Well, Jon, you said something a second ago about, like, you thought a monument to herself. And I, it, it's more like monument to an idealized fairytale version of her childhood, as I understand it. It's more so what Sarah said. It's more so this sort of, uh, it's not self-celebratory as I thought it would be.

John: It's a lot about Appalachian craft, smoky mountain nature, um, blacksmiths, candy makers, and then it's like, uh, rides are themed by [00:40:30] woodworking and miners, and so, like, these different professions. Firefighters. There's one about firefighters. Firefighters. Yeah. Wild Eagle, like, there's literally a quote from Isaiah about mounting on the wi- wings of...

Sara: It's my favorite rollercoaster in all the world, but - That's the best one. Yeah, it's so much fun. There's a museum with her. Uh, but that, you know, it's not like, uh, it's not like some people we know now who are, you know, building monuments to themselves. We do not, we are, we are gonna avoid politics on that.

Michael: It's not like that. We are not gonna go there. She is, but I will say she is not afraid to slap her name on something, which I [00:41:00] think can be read different ways. And so this capitalism point, the idea of capitalism, cultural capitalism, is this idea that whatever becomes salient and valuable in the culture, capitalism will co-opt it and sell it back to you.

Nichelle: Right. You know what I mean? Right. There is a way of looking at it that, yeah, she's kind of selling, like repackaging, glamorizing, and selling what is hardship or what has a lot of roots in hardship. I don't know that I ascribe to that, and I think the fact that she is so [00:41:30] authentic, we can talk about personally how much real Dolly do we see, but in terms of her attachment and her connection to her roots and where she comes from and her culture, that is so authentic that I think she beats back that criticism, her specifically.

I think there are other people who might do the same thing, and the criticism would be very valid, but I just think she's not one of them. I just wanna, I do wanna make this point. The money is then reinvested. It's not just capitalism for her sake. It's capitalism- Right ... for that community's sake. And so [00:42:00] ultimately, the region is benefiting financially from it.

John: Yeah, I mean, it's 4,500 jobs or something like that. It's, like, insane. Yeah, there, but it's, so it does put it back, but it also, yes, it does glamorize sort of this Americana and the struggle of the working class and- I'm curious, how multiracial is it when you go? It depends on when you go. So the, I mean, 'cause it's open to conventions as well, right?

Michael: I got a question for you, Jon, though, and I'm not sure if we're done with your Dollywood point, but like, I do think that there [00:42:30] is, it is kind of a fun thought experiment of what is the theme park of your childhood? In a way, but I think Disney World is exa- is basically Walt Disney's childhood, you know- Right

romanticized and- Yeah ... uh, and, and enshrined. And, and it, I think in some ways so is Dollywood. It's sort of a, an interesting move for somebody who has incredible success. I don't know if I'm exactly asking what is the John Watts idealized childhood, uh, theme park, although maybe I am. I think in my theme park you would sit and watch, [00:43:00] like, old episodes of I Love Lucy.

Okay. I don't know if you need a theme park for that. Don't, don't you just need, like, a YouTube account? You'd be, you'd have HBO cable from the '80s. With a lot of couches. And that's it. And some remote controls. You'd just sit there and watch TV. That- Yeah, no ... that sums up my child- And then put, like, a corn maze in there, and done.

Okay. This is not actually the question I'm trying I'm trying to get at. Then we're done. I'm trying to get at- Yeah, that's it ... the famous and gravy point. What does this show you about yourself? What does this teach you about yourself? I always, th- this, k- kinda going back to what I mentioned before- Like, I'm sure there's a better theme park to [00:43:30] be had, but go ahead

John: it's like, there's this, there's this part of her that I always felt like she was, she could stick out her neck, but it seemed like she could do that. Like, you know, and I always think about, like, "Is this my ego that's getting in the way? Am I doing this, like, you know, this job hop because of my ego? Am I doing this..."

And it's always like, well, you know, what are you, what's your motive? What's your goal here? And o- or, or what are you afraid of? And, um, so that's, these are the kind of things that I'm always asking. But you look at what Dolly did, and she seemed to make decisions based on other people, hopefully. And, and, you know, and, and that's [00:44:00] kind of how, what it looks like to me.

Or she felt like she could take these risks because it, her, it was coming from the right place. You know? And I'm sure she made some great cash on it, too. I'm not saying that it was totally altruistic, but she had that- N- no, but it feels balanced- She had that seam to be unlocked, though ... in its self-centeredness, right?

Michael: Mm-hmm. And, and that, that it's like it's, it, it's not not self-centered, but it's not excessively self-centered. It's balanced in terms of how much, you know, of her cultural capital is and is not being spent on something. I think that's actually a pretty good [00:44:30] segue to number four, and so this is coming from Jennifer Keishin Armstrong.

And I wanna talk about Dolly politics 'cause what, Jennifer wrote an article recently that really spoke to kind of the superpower and magic trick she managed to pull off, where people of all, uh, political persuasions, like, claim her. And how, how is that possible? I, I think that, one, she's extremely adamant that any time a politician's name is brought up, "I'm not talking about it," right?

But she's also obviously [00:45:00] involved. 9 to 5, as you say, is both a feminist and I think to some extent working class, I think your point earlier, Nichelle, was great about this, anthem. I, I guess, like, to me, that's one of the big mysteries of her is how, how did she do that? And I think you can kind of distill it down to values above politics.

But the way she was able to pull that off actually got me thinking That maybe I misunderstand what the word politics or doing politics even [00:45:30] means. I was gonna say, I think that there is, there are different ways of thinking about doing politics, right? So lately we've started to understand that there are personal acts, cultural choices that are, we call them political.

Nichelle: Like rest is a political act. Self-care- Yeah ... is a political act, right? I took a nap. We talk about- It was po- it was a political act. Right. Yeah. Hooray. We talk about how all these things are revolutionary and political. And the thing is, that can be true depending on your vantage point and where you [00:46:00] come from, right?

So you can absolutely say if people wanna call Dolly political, they can look at her lyrics and say that she's overtly political. You know, a woman can make mistakes in the same way as a man, but don't judge me in the same way. You know what I mean? Like, I wanna be treated the same and judged for my mistakes no more than you are judged for your mistakes.

Those things, those statements are all overtly political. And is pressed on it on a lot of occasions. There are, there are journalists who are really trying to pin her down, and she, "I ain't gonna do it. I'm just, I'm, that's [00:46:30] just not something I'm gonna do, make a boob joke." We have a president of the United States who said those things on that bus I'm not addressing that.

Archival: I do not get into that. Of course I have my opinion about everybody and everything, but I learned a long time ago, keep your damn mouth shut if you wanna stay in show business. I'm not in politics. I'm an entertainer. And yet, you're also a role model. Yes, I am. That's why I don't, uh, talk about people, 'cause I have a lot of fans out there and I don't wanna offend anybody.

And besides, I just don't get into that, and so if you are deciding you [00:47:00] may wanna ask me something more serious, don't, 'cause I'm not gonna answer I really admire that. I, I, I admire a, a certain kind of deftness there. I admire it only because she is so clear in her music about how she feels, and she's so clear about her philanthropic actions, and even in her business moves, like she's so clear about where her values, principles, politics writ large lie- Yeah

Nichelle: that she, she's not actually- It's not seen to be necessary to like weigh in on a campaign Yeah, she's not, she's [00:47:30] not shying away from anything. She's not afraid of anything. She's just not gonna give it to you in the package that you want it so you can have some salacious story that you can run with and use it to divide people.

Sara: Country music was really hit hard by what happened to the Dixie Chicks. Like, uh- Yeah ... like literally if you went to a live show for three years after that, like people would say, "I'm afraid to say anything after what happened to the Chicks," but, you know Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Wow. But,

um, I think she knew she could be effective in other ways, and, [00:48:00] uh, and I think it would've been limiting for her to speak up more. But can I just say, to your point about it being a survival skill, as a young woman in the South who wanted to do things- Yeah ... she would have learned, and she would be surrounded by people who were more powerful than her.

Nichelle: All of the people who helped her in the industry, from her Uncle Bill on up, were in fact and in reality more powerful than her and could have hindered her, so she would understand how to walk that tightrope. [00:48:30] Like as a woman of color, I deal with that all the time as well. Like, you are constantly calculating, "What do I need to say and do to survive right here, right now?"

Michael: I, I think to me it's just so striking because it's, you're, we're so hard-pressed to come up with oth- other examples these days of people who have broad appeal beyond political categories. And I think it is part of the mystery, not because I'm really scratching my head about who did she actually vote for?

What I'm more impressed with is that she didn't alienate people despite [00:49:00] what she clearly believes. And there, so there's a sort of, like, principle of similarities, not differences, that is harder and harder to find embedded in any celebrity these days. I, well, I mean, we're probably gonna get into it later, but I think it has everything to do with her sense of love and her sense of faith.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, actually, okay. Mm-hmm. This is, this is pretty good. So this, let me get to my fifth thing. So okay, I'm gonna take you guys a little bit on the journey of how I arrived at thing number five. I was really looking for an interview [00:49:30] that would unlock her a little bit more. Fran and I listened to Unlock, uh, Unlocking Us with Brene Brown.

That was one of them. It was a good interview. Um, on Oprah, and I listened to Terry Gross. And the, the one that really stands in my mind is Charlie Rose, um, who is a problematic figure. He's kind of, you know, since been, become persona non grata. But I think he can have, at, if you go into the archives, there are very great in-depth Charlie Rose interviews, and I thought, "I'll be interested to see how this goes down."

And what- [00:50:00] happened is that Dolly played him like a fiddle, that he just turns into a bumbling, you know, country yokel. Yep, big boobs. I mean, he like- ... he's, it was an unbelievably dumb interview for Charlie Rose. Now, was it simply because you worked at it so hard, or was it a gift? It was a gift. Right. The gift ran in the family.

Archival: Right. I just took it and decided I was gonna do more. So I would write all these songs when, when people would come to our house, Mom would say, "Oh, run and get your guitar and sing that song you wrote for them." Get your guitar. And then I [00:50:30] would just... I saw- How did we not know about Charlie, watching something like that?

Nichelle: It w- that was a little bit my thought. How did we not know? But then I started thinking, and so let me, let me take you on this journey. So then I'm like, you know what? Maybe my fifth thing is that she played men really well, and boy, is that... I mean, we haven't actually really talked much about her biography.

Michael: We know she came from hardscrabble background in Appalachia, and then the collaboration with Porter for... What's his last name? Porter, um- Wagner. Porter Wagner ... thank you. I was about to say- Seven years ... Porter Smokehouse, and I was wrong. Uh, [00:51:00] Por- Porter Wagner, um, for seven years, and, and, and I love the story about how she finally broke up that problematic relationship by writing I Will Always Love You, and he said, "Well, I guess you need to go y- your own way."

Archival: Your original version of I Will Always Love You, which was used again in the movie The Bodyguard, and was a huge hit for Whitney Houston. Do you remember writing this song and what you were thinking of when you wrote it? Oh, absolutely, I remember that one. That one was about when I [00:51:30] was leaving Porter Wagner, because I had been with him seven years.

I had told him... 'Cause see, I had, had plans to have a si- a solo career of my own. I hadn't planned to get caught up with another group. But I kept staying and staying, and I kept wanting to go, 'cause I felt like I really needed to go out on my own if I was ever really gonna have a solo career, and Porter was dead against it.

He wouldn't hear of it, and he had a fit. We fought a lot. So, uh, I just out of a, a broken heart of not being heard or anything, knowing I had to make major decisions that would [00:52:00] ultimately change my life forever, I wrote that song one night out of great grief and depth and, uh, just trying to say the right things to say goodbye.

Michael: And so I go like, how else did she play men? I thought about, uh, I thought about, um, d- my fifth thing, maybe, maybe the thing to, to say here is no means no, because she really represents, um, yet she said no to Elvis and Colonel Parker when they wanted to buy her song. She, like, will not talk about politics.

Like, what she does and does not do, where she's drawing [00:52:30] boundaries is maybe the fifth thing. And Colonel Tom Parker calls me the day before and says, "Now, you do know that Elvis is recording your song, and you do know that Elvis don't record anything that he don't publish or at least get half the publishing on?"

Archival: I said, "Really?" Which is to say he would have the rights to the song. He would have the rights, at least half, half of the, the s- rights to the publishing of the song. I said, "I can't do that." He said, "Well, then we can't record the song." And I was just heartbroken. I said, "Well, I'm really sorry, but I can't do that."[00:53:00]

Michael: What I landed on is I think she's the perfect celebrity, f- at least for now. Now, I don't mean perfect person. I wanna really clarify what I mean by perfect celebrity, that celebrity is a job. Celebrity is mirror, right? I've, I've really been thinking about the b- Famous and Gravy back catalog. I was thinking about, uh, the Pee-wee Herman episode.

I was thinking about David Bowie. There are, are y- these artists who help make us feel seen, and I think that she does that with incredible skill and incredible [00:53:30] deftness. I think it is rooted in her spirituality, to your point, Nichelle, that I think it, it has to, comes down to her relationship with her, her god, her...

And it's a sort of id- interesting idiosyncratic, uh, idiosyncratic relationship. But I like, I don't know anybody who's ever done, done celebrity better. Because we have this really weird relationship with celebrity, and this is, like, the big theme of Famous and Gravy is that on one hand, you know, we too want to be seen.

And so when we relate to [00:54:00] somebody in a parasocial way, we are both drawn to them and we feel a sense of envy 'cause we want it reflected back on us. And she had a way of reflecting back on so many people. She did the job of celebrity, I think, as well as anybody's ever done it. I think that's right. As you...

Nichelle: I th- I mean, I, I wanna think about it some more 'cause there are other ones who I think are actually very good at something very similar But if you think of celebrity as a vocation, I think that's right, 'cause she gave us all the feeling of [00:54:30] knowing her as a real person. She gave us all the attributes of, "This is just me.

We're just having a chit-chat. We're just gonna have a laugh together." You know what I mean? She gave us all of that, yet the people who worked with her, like Jane Fonda said, she's like, "I never saw her not made up." Mm-hmm. Yeah. The whole- Mm-hmm ... and they, like that whole scene in 9 to 5 where they're, like, smoking weed and bonding, they did something like that before shooting to actually get to know each other so they could feel comfortable.

And Jane was like, "I don't think she ever confided [00:55:00] anything to us. Like, we spent hours hanging out." Dolly told them nothing, even though they had a fabulous time and they love her to death. Yeah. Something that I see a lot working as a podcast producer, um, and being online more than I wanna be, is that there, we, social media has, has in some ways democratized the paths to celebrity or at least given us the perception that it has, and that's not totally true.

Michael: One thing I see on podcasts and a lo- and on a lot of short form social media [00:55:30] is, um, people sort of performing authenticity, oftentimes by, like, opening the kimono and letting everybody in on all of their trauma and all of it they ever were. And, and so the, the, the boundaries that she draws and the paradoxes that she im- uh, that she contains are, are sort of like, that, that feels like part of the magic elixir here of how she was able to, you know, quote unquote, d- to my claim, be the perfect celebrity.

That, you know, you... One thing [00:56:00] I, that I, actually did come out of the Brene Brown interview that I thought was interesting, she s- asked at some point, "What would people be interested to learn about you?" She says, "I'm actually a really quiet person." You know? Mm-hmm. When I'm not in front of the camera, I don't talk a whole lot.

And she also, I think in that interview, definitely in other places, like big time reader, loves to read. Like, Dolly Parton with, you know, curled up with a book, like, that's her happy place? It's not exactly what we picture, but it also makes sense, and it's also like, okay, you've drawn the boundaries, you know?

That's, that's where I wanna picture [00:56:30] you. That's why I love that quote from her mom. Like, if you think about her mom being in a two-room house with, you know, 11, 12 kids and a husband, and she says to her daughter, "Always keep something back for yourself," like, how do you keep anything back for yourself in that environment?

Sara: You know? But I really do think that, uh, Dolly had a sense of herself that was very protected and very sure. And you see it in the Barbara Walters interview. So the idea is that, like, there was a [00:57:00] persona that was, that was a persona. Like, she knew she was putting on that, that, that pony, that, like, show dog.

You know? Like, she was, she was dressing it up, and I think that because of that- She was able to keep those boundaries. She was able to have something that was only her. She was able to have a personal life and a family life with a, like a smaller group of people, and then she was able to, you know, basically just have these layers of onion.

Michael: I do think that comes from a relationship with her God. I ultimately think [00:57:30] she felt seen by... I think she lived her life and, and ex- and had a conscious contact and direct relationship with a higher power of her understanding, and she'll, she would say as much. I, I, I do feel like there's a lot of affirmation from something that's not human that is sort of, and, and, and, and a willingness to search for it and express gratitude through it that, that regardless of your religious beliefs I find admirable.

John: I think there was a part of her that just this is exactly what she dreamed for, and she was gonna protect it [00:58:00] At any cost. Like, she was gonna hold this dear and dear. Remember the, when Steel Magnolias came out, ugh. Mm. The best. Yeah. Um, and then they're doing, I think it was an Oprah interview- I'm gonna roll my eyes.

Oh, I'm gonna be the eye-roller of this one. And I just, you better, all right, you better not- ... because I know where you are. I know where you're sitting. I will drive over there. Don't even. Seriously. But the... I'm- I have my DVD. I am treating you to this- Oh, my God ... DVD set. It's, it's so good. Okay. It's the best video.

Michael: Sorry, I don't know Steel Magnolias. Okay, but anyway, so, so it, uh, [00:58:30] I think it's an Oprah interview. I have to bring Oprah up every time I'm on here. But then, uh, and they're talking to Julia Roberts about the film, and Julia Roberts said, uh, in this, they were, do you, s- they were filming the Christmas scene, and it was, you know, it was, uh, Louisiana in the middle of the summer.

John: So there was, they were all hot in these sweaters, and everyone was complaining about how hot it was. And she was like, she just saw Dolly sitting over there being quiet and, you know, calm, and she was like, "Dolly, why aren't you saying anything? It's, aren't you hot?" And she was like, "You know, when I was a little girl, all I wanted to be was a famous, [00:59:00] um, star musician, and now I am, and I'm not gonna complain about it."

Michael: Yeah, I mean, we overuse the word authentic, but she is such a 10 out of 10 example of how we understand that idea in as much as a celebrity can do it, that we can't distinguish was this performed authenticity or authenticity? But whatever it was, it feels very, very, very true, which is why that's my thing number five.

All right, I think let's round it out. So let's recap. Uh, number one, Michelle, what had you said? I know the word intersectionality was involved, but I forgot the rest of it. Yes, innate yet [00:59:30] imperfect intersectionality. Sarah, yours was, I know it rhymed with- True to her Tennessee roots. True to her Tennessee roots.

John, you had... Rags to roller coasters, um- Rags to roller coasters. Oh, that's perfect. Jennifer Keishon Armstrong gave us, um, values above politics, and I said the perfect celebrity. That is a very amazing top five list. So before we wrap up, John, I know you need to leave us because you have a prior engagement.

I'm going to a big gay poo, pool party. You're going to a big gay [01:00:00] pool party. Um, so John won't be joining us for the rest of the episode, but I'm sure you'll be back on Famous and Gravy very soon. That's right. Yeah. I'm gonna get that good vitamin D. Yeah. Okay. I'll see you later. Wow. Bye. Bye. Enjoy. Thanks, John.

John: Bye. Let's take a break Okay, category three, one love. In this category, we are each gonna choose one word or phrase that characterizes Dolly Parton's loving relationships. Uh, first we're gonna review the family life data. So this is pretty [01:00:30] well-known, interesting. Carl Dean, uh, she was married to him in 1966.

Michael: Dolly was 20, Carl was 23. They had met two years earlier. Dolly, its first day in Nashville, um, outside of the Wishy Washy Laundry Mat. He was a paving asphalt contractor by trade, and by all accounts, had zero interest in her fame. Um, their marriage lasted just shy of 59 years. He died in 2025, uh, at age 82.

Dolly said it was not spotless, but he somehow managed to completely [01:01:00] avoid the limelight. They never had, uh, biological children. We were talking earlier about her incredible ability to draw boundaries, and this is maybe the best place where she's clearly respecting the boundaries he's drawing. He apparently never even saw her perform live, like zero interest.

I do not understand this marriage at all, honestly. Uh, Nichelle, do you, you wanna go? Sure. Okay, so I put everyone's favorite aunt, sister, fairy godmother, but not [01:01:30] actual mother. That's my phrase. So for me, the thing that struck me... So yeah, I, you know, who we can go down the rabbit hole with theories about Carl Dean and her and why that might have worked in the South when it did, and why he might have been so easily amenable to staying out of the spotlight as much as he...

Nichelle: Now, he is on the cover of one of her albums. Blue Ridge Mountain Boy has a picture of him on the cover. Mm-hmm. And there are a few photographs of him and stuff like that. I flat out don't believe that he never saw her perform live. [01:02:00] Like, that just seems nuts to me, especially even early in their relationship.

They dated for two years before they were married. You know what I mean? Like, I, I just don't even believe that. I think that he probably stayed very out of sight, 'cause he didn't wanna be involved in all of that. Clearly. Yeah. So just the idea of a Southern man who was that evolved, who could have a woman who's so powerful and so, you know, self-determined- That's kind of what makes you so curious

and be cool with it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, there are, there are theories about that. We don't have to get into the theories. Um, so for me, what really struck me [01:02:30] was but not actual mother the children thing. 'Cause I feel like I would listen to interviews with her, and she would talk about how she went through a low period in the early '80s.

So she says she's in her late 30s. It was a down period. She was having stress from a movie. I think it was the Best Little Whorehouse in Texas was not a good filming atmosphere. She was going through stress, and she says in interviews, and I remember it's two different interviews, I think I heard her say it, and it's interviews with men, which is why I chalk it up to them missing this.

She's like, "So I was going through the change of life." She says, "I'm in [01:03:00] my late 30s, and I'm going through the change of life and going through a lot of female problems, and I considered suicide." And they're like, "Rip," and just keep on going. I'm like, "Excuse me." Yeah. If a woman is in her late 30s and she's telling you that she's going through menopause, what might be happening here is that she's devastated over the fact that all of a sudden she can't have children, and that door has just closed for her.

And she had endometriosis. And no one picks up on it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I'm like- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... that is devastating. And then later on, of course, she's made peace with it. I am [01:03:30] able to do so much more for other people because I don't have my own family. But we were talking about sacrifice.

Archival: Yeah. But you give up a lot. I never had children. I couldn't, you know, I d- it just wasn't in the cards for me to have them, but I- Why not? Well, I just couldn't have children. I- Medically? Med- yeah. Yeah. Right. When I ... Well, we thought we wanted children. My husband and I of 43 years, when we first married, we thought we probably would have children.

So for a while, we didn't do anything to not, but nothing happened. And then my career started going. Didn't do anything to not. Then I started taking birth control [01:04:00] pills. Yeah. You know? And then later when I got off of those, nothing happened. So I just figured it was never meant to be. That really just kind of struck me, that she actually went through something here and talks about it, like, is willing to reveal it.

Nichelle: Yeah, or at, at least hints at it. And no one pic- Yeah. Yeah. No one really followed up. And no one picks up on it. I do think that what we were talking about earlier With her as the perfect celebrity and all the five things, and I was saying that it has a lot to do with her sense of love and faith. For me, so another aspect, 'cause [01:04:30] another phrase that I came up with was universal love, and I think this, she says, "I accept everybody.

I want to be accepted." I think that is a point of, like, Cruz Trist- Christian values of loving thy neighbor. Like, I think it's a point of faith for her. It's a point of spirituality. It's a point of, of love. So there's, I, I think all of that is there, too. I have a hard time with, uh, the mother, not a mother label, kind of putting that on her, because I do think that she and Carl took in her [01:05:00] younger siblings, you know, and b- and ultimately got them to college, and, like, she was a very active Aunt Granny, is what they called her.

Sara: Like a family member, yeah. Yeah, so the- Yeah, no, she was definitely, she was mother adjacent, for sure, but I'm just really just commenting on how people missed that she would have gone through a struggle. Yeah. She says it. She went through a struggle at the time when she was like, "I couldn't have my own children."

Oh, no, no, no, no. I definitely think, I definitely do. That's all. And, and, and she also had endometriosis, so they, they know that she had this, like, very complicated ... And, and it's, like, something you see, like, Lena Dunham talking [01:05:30] about a lot, like, with her weight going way up, way down, like, all those fluctuations.

And, and there were times that she, I think, was, like, fighting with her own body. So at some point I do hope that there's a, like, a women's health initiative around, uh, that. 'Cause I do think that that was a painful point for her. But I also do think it coulda, woulda probably changed her life a lot in ways that made her less available to the public.

Carlene, the story is they meet at this wishy-washy. [01:06:00] They date for two years. Her label says do not get married, so they go the next weekend to Ringgold, Georgia, so it wouldn't be in the Tennessee papers. Her mom makes her a white dress. Dolly insists that it be in a church, so they go to this Baptist Church in Ringgold, so they have a little wedding picture that looks like a traditional wedding.

And then they come back and they're married, and then one of her first songs on The Porter Wagoner Show is that Because I'm a Woman, and it's basically about a fight they have because Carl had [01:06:30] never asked her if she'd had sex with other men before they got married. And then when he found out that she had, he was really mad about it.

You know, and she was like, "My mistakes are no worse than yours because I'm a woman. Like, they, you shouldn't have had that expectation. I never gave it to you." You know, like, that was what she was saying. And I just think that- To the extent she had boundaries, and she did, I think the way that she protected him was amazing.

I think it also protected her, because she wasn't criticized as a mom. She wasn't, you know, like, [01:07:00] decisions she was making about her kids were, um, were not there. And she wasn't criticized as much as a wife, because nobody knew who he was or what he wanted. Like, you know, like- Right. You know? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So they're not kind of watching their story playing out. So I think in some ways it gives her a cleaner slate to kind of draw her image on, in a sense. There's a lot of strength to be had in somebody who was interested in you before you got famous, and you know- Mm-hmm ... who rode it out with you. And then I [01:07:30] think the more interesting thing is, like, the only real rumor mills I remember around her were that they would have had, like, an open marriage of some sort.

And she says, like, "I took lovers on the road," and then there she says on, like, a late night show, "Well, I'm getting old enough now I'm probably not gonna be taking any lovers on the road, so I'm trying to get Carl to come."

And then she says, like, "He's got plenty of, like, female friends." He's like, "I don't think she, he's going to bed with them, and then if he is, so long as I don't know about it, I don't know." You know? So, like- [01:08:00] Yeah ... but this is, this does have to be a really confident guy to know that- Yeah ... she's singing the greatest love song in country music history, and potentially pop music history, and it was not written about him.

You know, like- And she describes her relationship with Porter Wagoner as, as akin to a marriage in some ways, right? Uh, yeah. And not necessarily sexual, but like, yeah. She's very cagey. I wrote down impervious cover, because I was going for a pavement, asphalt metaphor.[01:08:30]

Michael: And that was ... Well, and, and, uh, you know, I live on top of an aquifer, and impervious cover is a term that comes up a lot here. Are we protecting the aquifer? Uh, and, and certainly I don't have much to add to the points y'all have made about, you know, questions of motherhood and what she was going through at different phases of her life.

All right. Um, I think let's just move on. Category four, uh, net worth. In this category we're gonna guess the net worth. The results are based from the website celebritynetworth.com. Normally, we write down our numbers ahead of time and we reveal, but since there's [01:09:00] more people on the call I think we'll all just blurt it out.

So I can go first. This kind of came up in the Katherine Graham episode- Mm-hmm ... Sarah, that, like, I didn't quite ... I'd never saw the B word, the billion next to it, but, like, had to be hundreds of millions, and there's also an unbelievable amount of philanthropy, not to mention theme parks, when they're successful, have to be a pretty damn good business.

So, uh, I said 800 million. What did you have? I wanted to say $999- [01:09:30] $1,999. Because what I see is, like, Dolly never let herself be a billionaire, but I'm like, she deserved to be a billionaire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So- You, you're right, exactly ... there was this idea, yeah, that her philanthropy is- This, this is an actor... I can't, I can't cross that line- Yeah, yeah, yeah

Sara: thin lines, I don't cross- And, but I just am like- ... the billion dollar lines ... I guess that's, like, The Price is Right answer, right? Yeah, yeah, no, I got it. Nichelle, what did you have? I put, 'cause yeah, I also am like, it should be big. But because of her philanthropy and [01:10:00] also her coming up in the time that she did when dollar amounts maybe weren't as huge, but then you have these, like, ridiculous windfalls from, like, I Will Always Love You and stuff like that.

Michael: Right. So I just kind of mashed that all together. Straight Talk. Yeah. I mashed it all together in my head. I came up with 400 million. Hmm. Okay. According to Celebrity Net Worth, the, uh, Dolly Parton's net worth at death was 450 million. Nice job, Nichelle. Mm. Mm-hmm. All right. One of the reasons we have this category is we've got [01:10:30] this leaderboard, and we'll get to the leaderboard in a second.

And, you know, it's kind of, like, nosy and curious, like how much money did somebody make? But the real reason that we have this category is what is s- somebody's relationship to money, in a way, and do they come across as excessively greedy and excessively hoarding or materialistic? Or attentive to their finances.

Yeah, that was the phrase that came up in the, uh, James Brown episode. He was attentive to his finances. I've been using that, actually. Thank you for calling me out- I [01:11:00] love that ... on that. It was a good euphemism. I think she is, not to use this word again, but unapologetic and like, "I like money," but I also... And, and in her materialism, and it costs a lot to look this trashy and all that stuff.

But I also, like, I so love her for it, and the, the, the philanthropic efforts are so tremendous that, like, you know, I'm so happy with this number. I think it could have been a lot higher should she wanted it to have been. And it does put her... Oh, this is nice. It's pu- uh, [01:11:30] because we got some Famous and Gravy alums between our...

It, this puts her right at position number six, uh, on the Famous and Gravy net worth leaderboard. Nobody else has 450 million, uh, at net worth. Right above her at 500 million is Queen Elizabeth, and right below her at 400 million is Michael Crichton. Okay. Uh, next category. You can either give a tiny trophy, which is an award, a cameo, an impersonation, some other pop culture reference that [01:12:00] you get a tiny trophy for, or what we sometimes call a Malkovich Malkovich moment, named after the movie Being John Malkovich, where you can have, take a little portal into somebody's mind and have a front row seat to their experience.

Sarah, what did you have here? are a lot of stories about the fact that they put up a statue of Dolly in Sevierville, like, in, at the, at courthouse, like, the little town she was... It's either Sevierville or p- Oh, yeah. I have Sevierville's on my T-shirt. Sevierville, Tennessee. Oh, [01:12:30] there we go. There we go. Yeah.

Sara: And she tells the story on, like, late night shows and lots of other times that her dad used to say, like, Dolly was proud of the statue. Like, she would... So she would say to her dad, like, "Don't you think it's so great that the statue is there and they did that?" And he goes, "Well, yeah, I do, because to all these people all over the world, you're some huge icon.

But to the pigeons, you're just a toilet."

Michael: Love [01:13:00] you, Pat. I know, I know. Yeah, yeah. Which was, like, a great story about, like, her staying grounded. But- Mm-hmm ... the second s- part of the story is that after his death she found out from her brothers that her parents used to go at night and clean the statue. So they would- Is that right? So they would literally go and clean off the bird poop basically, so that, like, in the morning it would be, like, a clean and polished statue.

Sara: And my brother used to tell that story, and he couldn't tell it without crying. Like, it, it, it was just like this [01:13:30] amazing thing, this idea that, like, your parents were so proud of this statue and so proud of you that they were, you know, they were saying this to your face, but they knew it was important to you, so they were out there making sure she looked good, 'cause that also mattered to her.

So I love that. I love that story. I, I do too. Mm-hmm. If my kids ever get a statue, I'll promise to- ... this is, this is definitely, the, in terms of lessons we can dr- glean here. All right, Nichelle, what'd you have here? So for me, I guess mine is a tiny short. It's [01:14:00] ca- well, it's Joyful Noise, which is a film she made in 2012 with Queen Latifah, um, and Keke Palmer, and, um, I just love...

Nichelle: It's an underrated film. Mm-hmm. Quick synopsis: she plays the rich lady benefactor of a small town Georgia ch- church that has a Black pastor and a mixed congregation. So there are issues of race in there, but they're, like, unspoken. But I think it's because they don't need to be spoken, you know what I mean?

Like, the, [01:14:30] the, the movie is really sharp. Show, don't tell. Yeah, the movie is... Yeah, the movie's really sharp, really funny. It really kind of goes there in a lot of serious ways. Like, the guy who wrote it is, like, a very kind of experienced screenwriter, and he also directed this, and I was like, "Why did this guy even wanna tell this story?

It's such a specific- What is this called again? What is this movie? Joyful Noise. It is, it's really good. I don't know this one. It's, it's actually- Yeah ... it is, it is, don't get me wrong, it is like Hallmark Channel kind of schmaltz, but it's, like, one of the best versions of the Hallmark Channel [01:15:00] feel-good type movies you're gonna get.

And it was a theatrical film or, you know. It's a fun and good film. Love it. I, there's actually... I mean, there's a lot of candidates here. Um, I, you know, thought about the sheep that's named after Dolly, the, the clone, right? I thought about... I don't... Somebody alerted me to, um- And did... Wait, wait, wait. Did, did you get, like, why they called it Dolly?

Michael: Yeah, and, uh, b- because they, uh, cloned from her mammary gland, right? Yeah, they cloned from her mammary gland. From Dolly's. No. Yeah. Well, no, not right. No, the sheep. From the sheep's mammary tissue. Sorry. Thank you for clarifying. [01:15:30] Right. There's not, there's not a sheep hybrid. And it- What do they call that? A sheep Yeah.

Thank, thank you. Right. Thank you for that clarification, Sarah. I thought about... Somebody alerted me to a, a letter that she wrote to Eminem when he was in- Oh, yeah ... into the... Have you read that letter? It's amazing. It's actually, like, really moving, and he, he, like, pours his heart out in a way that I am not used to seeing.

Mm-hmm. I ended up going in a, a crowdsource direction. Um, Morgan Honaker, who is a big-time contributor to this show, she helped produce the [01:16:00] early episodes. She's gonna be working on this one. She sat in on Christopher Lee and Wes Craven. The Christopher Lee episode was really good. She asked me if I would, uh, uh, play this card here.

So if I were to name a movie, uh, I wanna see if y'all can guess the movie that stars, uh, Luke Perry and Pee-wee Herman or Paul Reubens. AKA Pee-wee Herman. Pee-wee's Big Adventure, right? Nope. He wasn't in that one. Luke Perry's not in P- no, Luke Perry's not in that. Deep in the catalog. Y'all might not be fans.

That's okay. Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Oh, [01:16:30] yes. So, uh, do you know- Yes, yes ... about this? So Dolly Parton's production company, uh, what's it called? Sandollar, funded the movie and was behind the movie Buffy the Vampire Slayer and helped it transition into TV. Apparently, Sarah Michelle Gellar, who was on the TV show, confirmed that while Dolly was not often on the set, the cast received personalized Christmas gifts during the early seasons, and both Dolly and Buffy Summers share a birthday, January 19th, which fans- [01:17:00] Mm

uh, view as a tribute to Dolly Parton. Mm. Mm. And if I were to, like, try and extract a little meaning, don't underestimate the quote unquote dumb blonde, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, it's a vampire slayer, and I think that, like... I love that Dolly Parton's got her fingerprints on Buffy. Okay. Let's take one more break.

All right, category six, words to live by. I wonder if we're gonna have some overlap here. In this category, we each choose a quote. These are either words that came out of Dolly Parton's mouth or was said about her. Nichelle, why don't you go first? Okay. [01:17:30] I'm pretty sure this is a quote from her. It's, "Find out who you are and do it on purpose."

That's what I have. Of course. Yeah. What'd you have to say? Yeah. I was gonna do that one too. Something maybe not in your head. But I do have another backup. Okay. I have it again. I love it. We again. That, that's the quote. I think- It wins ... let's just talk about it, because, uh, it, it wins. I think, uh, he... I... Find out who you are and do it on purpose.

I wanna linger on this. I, I think the order of operations is maybe a little bit ambiguous. I initially read it as, okay, I need to find out who I am, and then I need to do that on [01:18:00] purpose. But then I started thinking about, like, uh, you know, one of the sayings you'll hear in 12 step circles is act your way to right thinking.

I wonder if you're not supposed to, like, be who you are and then find out that way. Like, this, this could be read a, in the, in the opposite direction. On one hand, it's maybe, like, easy advice, be authentic, be yourself. But that is not... It's not easy to know who you are. And how do we know who we are? Nichelle, you have something to say here.

Nichelle: I thought it was a clever way of saying be intentional. Never [01:18:30] give up, and then this other song that she talks about called Try- Mm. Mm ... came up. Like, that, it felt explicative of this quote, this idea, this song Try. So she's like, "Yeah, Try, it's a theme song for the Imagination Library," but then she's like, "But it's also, like, my personal theme song."

She's like, "You know how Sinatra has a song like My Way? This is what I Try to be for me." And she's like, "I sing it at every show. I sing it all the time," blah, blah, blah. And she quotes some lyrics from it, 'cause of course she can do that from just memory. She's like, "I've laughed and I've cried, but I've always tried.

The first step is the [01:19:00] one that's always hardest, but you won't amount to much if you don't try." All of those things feel like words to live by from Dolly Parton. Sarah, how did you read the quote? I think there is, like, this idea that if she's sitting in the little church as much as we believe she was, she's very familiar with the idea that there are plans for you, and you need to figure out what they are and just kind of walk in them, you know?

Sara: So I think she had this sense of, um... And she said all the time she wanted God to use her as a light for humanity, and she wanted, um, to [01:19:30] have that. That kind of drove her thinking, and I think it drove her positivity really in terms of how she approached life. But it was, I think, an Imagination Library discussion.

Wherever you think you're gonna go, you're not gonna get there unless you try. So I think she ... There is this element of, like, admit to yourself what it is you want, and then go get it. I really liked hearing both of y'all unpack this quote, 'cause I- [01:20:00] Like I wanna apply it. Mm. And you know, there are days where I feel like I'm on the beam, and there are other days where, not in the moment, usually on reflection, I'm like, "That wasn't who I wanna be exactly."

Michael: And it's usually, if I reflect on it, because some sort of fear had become predominant and operating. I think it's fear that takes us away from who we really are. So I like y'all saying It, it's about intentionality and even [01:20:30] permission to say, like, to know what you really want, you know? Something I certainly struggle with is, like, and, and this kinda gets back to my perfect celebrity, you know, celebrity as mirror idea.

Like, I think we all wanna be recognized and seen. We wanna be, we want compliments, and we want maybe adoration, and we want attention. And, um, that can get so out of whack and so perverse and so fear-driven that it really leads to, you know, us not being who we are. So [01:21:00] some, some of that has to come from a sense of balance.

Some of that has to come from a deep in- deeper inquiry of, like, where are we receiving validation in our lives, and how are we feeling loved and seen and so forth. And, and it's funny, I brought it up with, in casual conversations with friends leading up to this recording, and everybody responds to that quote, "Find out who you are and do it on purpose."

Mm-hmm. I'm glad that we all came to that. Uh, let's move on. Category seven, Man in the Mirror. This category asks a fairly simple question, did this person like their reflection, yes or no? [01:21:30] This is not a question about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment. I don't think that this is complicated in our answer.

Surely we are all on the yes, this is a, she liked her reflection, this is a confident woman. But let's make it a little bit complicated for a second, because I do... Like, this is one of the contradictions. She is dolled up. Mm-hmm. Right? I mean, she, the wigs, the makeup, the, the... I don't know if those things were necessary for her to feel a sense of self-worth.

I... You could just get the impression she just likes [01:22:00] it. But it is kind of a contradiction because she, like, leans into it so heavily in terms of putting her face on or, or whatever it is. So I don't know. Am I overthinking this? No. I don't think so. Sarah, what are your thoughts? I mean, I think she- She liked her reflection, right?

Sara: She liked her re- I think she did like her reflection. Did she like it without makeup on? I think so. I think she... But I do think she felt like it was something that... We've talked about this particularly with, like, [01:22:30] female public figures, which is who we talk about on this podcast, but she- Yeah, whatever ... like, I think there were talk- She's one of those women who would talk about times when she was right pretty, you know?

And so, like, she had these ideas of times when she had what I would call natural beauty, and then she would talk about, there was another quote that was like, "I am a self-made woman, and I have the doctor bills to prove it." You know, she, like- Yeah, right, right, right, right ... you know, like, and she- No, and I mean, she's very, like, open and s- uh, self-effacing about, like, plastic surgery and that kind of stuff.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So she would go in and [01:23:00] fix whatever it was that she, uh, wasn't happy with, and she had the lighting and the hair and the, the wigs and stuff. But I think in some ways- I think that she learned to use beauty as armor, and I think that in some ways she was protecting her confidence and she was protecting herself by maintaining that facade when she needed it.

And I do think that a lot of people talk about the fact they never saw her without her makeup on, but there are also people who talk about the fact that they did. So like that Waylon Jennings quote where he's [01:23:30] like, "If you haven't seen Dolly at breakfast, you have no idea how beautiful she is," you know?

So- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... you know, and, and then the idea that like people, even in like Chattanooga, there'd be- you'd hear from people who were like, "I think I saw Dolly Parton today, and I heard that like she doesn't really wear wigs when she's out with her family."

Nichelle: Can I just say, I, I think that that is really import- So for me, I was definitely yes, and I think that, yeah, her self-love and her confidence is what we talked about earlier, [01:24:00] allowed her to make fun of herself. And I think it gave her armor and power against ogling men, like Johnny Carson and all of his shenanigans, and frankly, judgmental women.

The thing with her wigs and the makeup, like what you were talking a- about, was getting to something I had been thinking about, that you know what? It's, it's so much, it's almost like a costume. And so I think of Sia. Have you ever heard of the musical artist Sia? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. She wears these crazy wigs that cover her face down to this point.

Oh, yeah. Like truly cover, like [01:24:30] to the point where she needs someone to lead her on stage 'cause she can't see through the wig, it's so, it's so intense. Or like Daft Punk, such that when she goes out without it, she's completely anonymous. Yeah. You do, we do not know what Sia looks like. We don't know what Daft Punk look like.

You know what I mean? So, 'cause they wear helmets and masks on stage. So it could be that Dolly, when she wants to, like if she says her dream vacation is to be in, you know, in the RV on a road trip without her wigs, or if it is true that she can go out with her family without [01:25:00] being fully made up and people don't know if it's her or not, perfect genius.

Yeah. Yeah. She's like Banksy. Yeah. We have no i- Right. All right, uh, let's move on. Category eight, coffee, cocktail, or cannabis. This is where we imagine a scene, and the scene is, uh, which substance would we most wanna do with our dead celebrity? Uh, Sarah, why don't you go first here? I'm actually going with morning coffee.

Sara: So she was very much, like she got up at like 3:30 in the morning every day, and I think that that was kind of her creative [01:25:30] space. And so the idea of having, like a morning coffee with her, and having some sense of like what she may have already written about and what she was planning on doing that day, I just, I would like to see that Dolly.

And I think that's as close to an opportunity to see how much of Dolly Parton was like Dolly. Yeah. What about you, Nichelle? What'd you have here? Cocktails. Yeah. I wanna get good [01:26:00] old-fashioned drunk with Dolly. Tennessee whiskey? Yeah. Uncle Nearest 1856 Premium- Right Oh ... Tennessee Whiskey. Oh, there we go.

Nichelle: The premium. There we go. All right. Yeah. So. Not just, we're not- Yes ... we're not just getting some- We'll let you across the border, Nichelle. Thank you. Thank you. Do you guys know the story of Nearest Green? Mm-mm. I do not. So Nathan Nearest Green was the enslaved man who taught Jack Daniels how to distill whiskey.

Mm. Taught him how to make whiskey. Mm. And, uh, [01:26:30] Jack Daniels gave him credit, you know, during his lifetime. Well, I wouldn't say gave him credit. He, privately, like he would talk about it and would tell people and what have you, and the Nearest and the f- the Green family worked with him at Jack Daniels- Word is that family members, descendants of the Green family still work at Jack Daniel's, at least up until 2017.

But yeah, he, as, as an enslaved person, he couldn't own his own business. He never got his due. So another entrepreneur, Black woman [01:27:00] entrepreneur several years ago started a company called, um, Uncle Nearest Whiskey. So I'd love to have that. And I would just love to see Dolly more fun, more unfiltered. Like, we talk about how, where there's this line.

We don't know where she's performing authenticity or being herself or whatever it is. Yeah. I just wanna see that. So kind of like the scene in 9 to 5, again, where the actresses got together even before they filmed, and they still don't feel like they got to know Dolly. I would like to actually get to know Dolly.

Yeah. You know what I mean? I would like to, just like you were saying, Sarah, I wanna see some [01:27:30] of the Dolly the real person, just because I think that I would enjoy that. If she's a quiet book reader, great. So I'm not quiet, but I am a book reader. I can be quiet. I'm an only child. I have my moments of silence.

I know, no, but I like to talk when I read too, Nichelle. Right? I get it. I don't talk when I'm reading. Very good point. You're not like me. Yeah. I am a quiet book reader. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Specifically speaking, I'm a quiet book reader. Didn't you guys do an hour and 42-minute episode? Right. Yeah. You know what?

Well edited. Thank you very much. The topic matter, the, the subject matter demanded it. Yeah. But [01:28:00] yeah. Yeah. So I would, I would just like to see more fun, more unfiltered. I, I wanna see Dolly at rest. I wanna see her completely comfortable. So I think we could really just have an enjoyable time and not overdo it.

Michael: Yeah. Love it. I went with beer, I guess on the other side of the park in the Great Smokies where she grew up, somewhere in the, in the country. I mean, I think one of the things I struggle with in terms of, like, this episode and how to think about it, there's no shortage of virtues you can extract from Dolly Parton.

There's almost too much to choose [01:28:30] from. I mean, I, I've really been stuck on, uh, her capacity for forgiveness and, um, to forgive others. I think the Porter Wagoner story really stands out to me, that her, we've talked about it a lot, her ability to draw boundaries. I think that gratitude as an action word. I think progress, not perfection.

I think, you know... And there's a part of me that just wants to simplify all that, and I wonder if that's actually not the word, is simple. There is something simple in her, I think, faith that [01:29:00] all of these other things are downstream from. I do think that the most interesting episode in that, uh, podcast series, the Dolly Parton's America, is the one where they kinda go into her relationship with her God.

And it's not that I want to- you know, mimic that or something. But I think that'd be a fun conversation to dwell on a little bit is like, you know, 'cause sh- it's not just that she's got a higher power that she has faith in and, and talks to. [01:29:30] It, it, it's like a very active conscious contact conversation.

There doesn't seem to be any question in her mind about something being present in her life that has, you know, guided and sustained and delivered gifts that, and that she then knows what to do with, and then knows how to give that back. So I, I'd like to have a God conversation with her. I think in nature is the place to do it with- Oh, yeah

I, I imagine a beer. This could be weed. It's probably better with weed, but I'm gonna go with beer. Well, she uses that term God [01:30:00] light, so she says she tries to see the God light in people, so she is trying to recognize a spirit and a soul in someone, not just, like, who they're presenting or what they're presenting.

Sara: I think it is remarkable to kind of see how much of her Faith plays out so tied to empathy and forgiveness. And I, I mean, short of being a sermon, like if you're really looking at like, [01:30:30] if you look at Jimmy Carter or like anybody who's like it's really clear that if anybody's Christian, that person is Christian, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, like really Jimmy and Dolly. You know, the, the, the idea is that they have the ability to see that everyone is worthy of existing and like being who they are and like having some self-identity of humanity, and then also being equally a child of God. And then forgiveness is the whole story.

Like, like [01:31:00] the whole idea of Jesus is like that you, he walked the Earth. He had ... He knew what it was to be human, and then he was the vehicle for forgiveness. So- And, and I gotta say, like I respond to all of this as somebody who's, who, uh, who has real still like lingering aversion to Christianity. This is the best version.

Michael: This is the part I like. Yeah. Well, yeah. Where they, you know- But, but that's why it, but the reason, it's the root of the story. You know? Like a- and so like it feels- Yeah ... yeah. And it's, and it's lost and perverted in lots of different ways- Yeah ... outside of that, right? But, but that is ... And so and her [01:31:30] point, she would always say, "I'm not here to judge anybody."

Sara: And, uh, and I think that's where the difference is, is that there are, are a lot of people who are trying to create any type of barrier to entry, and that just wasn't how she saw it. Like the, if you're, um, recognizing something true in every person or this, this God light in every person, then you are looking for the best in them all the time, and it's a much better way to walk through the world than trying to draw lines about evil based on things that have nothing [01:32:00] to do with anything.

Yeah. I feel like we're getting into my upward staircase now. Okay. Yeah. I think, I think we're kinda there. I think, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, b- but, but I'm glad we went there because I do think that w- you know, we started the conversation, or I started the conversation by saying I do think that there's a great mystery.

Michael: This is that mystery. And God at what- or, or a higher power or whatever language you wanna use is also the great mystery. And so when you see it shining bright at, out of someone, like that is worth dissection and understanding. And, [01:32:30] uh, I feel like that's where this conversation's gone, so I'm really glad we landed here.

Let's do it, Nichelle, to your point. Category nine, the case for the upward staircase. In this category we make the case that, uh, this person, this category's got a little bit of ambiguity, but, um, it, it's about legacy. It's about transcendence. It's about a spiritual journey as we understand it. So Nichelle, where were you gonna go with this?

Nichelle: So I kind of, I summed it up as Dolly was a rebel with a cause. So she says, "I don't want any part of con- any controversy." Like [01:33:00] she'll, she'll- presented as like, "I am a scaredy-cat. I don't want any part of any controversy. I'm not a rebel without a cause," she says. And I'm like, "No, you were a rebel with a cause."

And I think for her, it was this other great quote that she had where she said, "Every day of my life I ask God to let me lift people up and to glorify him. That is my mission, to make people happy, to lift mankind up if I can. If there's any light shining on me, I hope that's God's light, and I'd rather direct them to him, not me."

And [01:33:30] so I really started to understand that, yeah, there's this difference between kind of spiritual faith and the human-made structure of religion, and I think she was not concerned with the second and was very focused on the former. And I think the case for her, I mean, is it even a case? It's clear. Like, we d- Oh, yeah, no, this is not, like, a hard case to make.

Michael: Sarah? I just think that there's not just a case for the golden staircase. She is the architect of the golden staircase. Yeah. You know, like she- [01:34:00] I, or- She has, she, she paved the road for people behind her. She gave to people she didn't know. She, there is so much of her life that is Just evidence of the best of us I, I think the hard, eh, there really has been a challenge throughout this conversation on some level to h- to humanize her in a way because she, and this is another one of those paradoxes, because, like, this is sort of my perfect [01:34:30] celebrity idea.

I mean, I, I, when I was talking to Jennifer about this episode, she said, you know, I can't remember if it's in her essay or if this was just something we said, is like, you know, Dolly Parton was this grand unifier in this extremely divisive moment in American history. Like, is it all gonna fall apart now?

Have we lost everything that... I mean, I think that there is a kind of fear that that, that is what she represented, and I, I agree. The case for The Upward Staircase is not a hard case to make whatsoever. Not a [01:35:00] perfect person, but represented so much about what we aspire to do and who we wanna be and how we could be better.

And maybe more than anything helps us see how we're, a lot of us are falling short in whatever power and agency we have in our lives. I also feel like she reminded us how to love each other. Yeah. Like, I'm thinking back to the concert footage, and like literally she is like this shining beacon on the stage, right?

Nichelle: Like, the lights are shining on her. She is literally shining. That majestic bitch busted out of [01:35:30] Tennessee. Yes. This majestic bitch is up on the stage shining literally. But what she's also doing is reminding us how to love each other. It's like she's transferring, she's giving us a Care Bear stare. She's transferring all of that love to us and reminding us through her song, through all the emotion, the giving of herself on stage.

She's trying to give us a loving feeling and reminding us how to love each other and how to have joy in this life, [01:36:00] and how to receive all of that that is possible from God, right? Like, it's God who bring this, brings this to us. Nichelle, if that isn't not only the case for The Upward Staircase, but you really just convinced me on September 25th, going forward every year, that's something to celebrate.

Michael: Yeah. I need to be reminded. Like, uh, Valentine's Day doesn't quite cut it- ... in terms of the loving day. Neither does- Yeah, yeah ... neither does Christmas and, [01:36:30] you know, like, yeah, I, i- if, if that's what this day is about, which it should be, hell yeah. Mm-hmm. Dolly Parton. September 25th. Reminding us how to love each other.

Dolly Parton Day henceforth. Yeah

Okay, speed round. Plugs for past shows. If people enjoyed this episode with Dolly Parton, what, uh, other episodes from the back catalog might they appreciate? I think I made probably [01:37:00] easy comparisons. Um, Tina Turner and Aretha Franklin. Mm. Oh, I love it. Yeah. Tina's a great one. Yeah. Um, okay, uh, and so is Aretha actually.

Okay, so I will go ahead and just plug both of those. What the hell? We're doing everything on this episode. Uh, Aretha Franklin, episode 101, Soul Queen, and Tina Turner was ... Let's see. She is 87, Simply the Best: Tina Turner. What did you have, uh, for plugs for past shows, Sarah? I feel a little selfish on this, but I'm just gonna let my light [01:37:30] shine, Michael.

Sara: Do what Dolly would do. Do it, girl. So I was- Do it, girl ... gonna say Waylon, uh, Jennings, 'cause I think I was rethinking his timeline with the fact that he openly admits that he was madly in love with Dolly Parton, and so I'm trying to think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe the one where his wife was like, "Seriously, this is a problem, Dolly."

Nichelle: Yeah. There was, there was some star where the wife was just like, "Seriously, no, Dolly, like, for real, he's, he's deeply in love with you. I don't know what to [01:38:00] do about it." Yeah. Yeah. There were, there were ... I don't think there was just one, so. Right. Right. Yeah. And, uh, the Queen, I wanna kinda ... The Queen? Queen Elizabeth?

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. It, it was a totally different, uh, set of circumstances, totally different rise, but this idea that there has to be a private person and a public persona, and what it is to either consider yourself dead to the private person so that you're fully in the public persona, or to [01:38:30] build a public persona so that the private person lives, is kind of interesting to me.

Well, here is a little preview for the next episode of Famous and Gravy. After high school, he enrolled at a university, but soon dropped out, saying he chafed at too much bureaucracy. He spent more than a year bouncing around Europe afterwards, studying art in Paris and selling sidewalk sketches for pocket cash.

Friend: Okay, I'm loving that. Yeah, that's cool. My intuition goes to [01:39:00] that guy from Mary Poppins, but he didn't die. No, Dick Van Dyke? Yeah. He still, as of this recording, with us, although, poof, we'll see where that goes. Okay. Finally, Famous and Gravy listeners, we love hearing from you. If you wanna reach out with a comment, a question, or to participate in our opening quiz, please email us at hello@famousandgravy.com.

Michael: In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels. Famous and Gravy was created by me and Amit Kapoor, uh, Nichelle Carr, and Sarah Murphy, and Jon Watts, and K- Jennifer Cashen [01:39:30] Armstrong and Morgan Harnecker. Thank you all for contributing to this episode.

It's produced by Morgan Harnecker with original music by Kevin Strang. See you next time.

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