132 Sexy Munchkin (Dr. Ruth Westheimer)

Who was Dr. Ruth?

Dr. Ruth Westheimer was America's most unlikely celebrity — a 4'7" German-Jewish grandmother who became the country's most famous sex therapist at a time when nobody was talking openly about sex. But before the TV shows, the 46 books, and the household name, she was a Holocaust survivor, an orphan, and a trained sniper in the fight for Israeli independence. In this episode of Famous & Gravy, we dig into the extraordinary life of Dr. Ruth Westheimer: her painful early years, her improbable rise to fame in her 50s, and the question our show always asks — would you want that life? If you've ever wondered how a tiny woman with a thick German accent changed sex in America, this is the conversation.

FULL TRANSCRIPT of our episode:

Alison: [00:00:00] [00:00:10] This is Famous in Gravy, biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at [00:00:20] hello@famousingravy.com. Now, here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2024, age 96. [00:00:30] College students loved her. Campus speaking appearances alone brought in a substantial income.

She appeared in ads for cars, soft drinks, [00:00:40] shampoo, typewriters, and condoms.

Friend: Oh, my goodness. I mean, that is, that is a range of products. And I know it's not Betty White, 'cause she lived to be 99. Is it Cloris

Michael: Leachman? [00:00:50] Not Cloris Leachman. She had a degree from the Sorbonne. She forged through hard times as an orphan of the Holocaust, and she was a refugee and a fighter in [00:01:00] the war for Israeli independence.

It's

Friend: not Julia Child, is it? No. Yeah, that, that clue is not helping as much as the 96 and 2024 is.

Michael: The Wall Street [00:01:10] Journal described her voice as, quote, "Something like a cross between Henry Kissinger and a canary."

Friend: I, I'm, I'm, I'm clueless on [00:01:20] that one. Uh, I feel like I know less who this is now than I did before the quiz.

Michael: At her most popular in the 1980s, she had a syndicated live call-in [00:01:30] show on radio and television, wrote a column for a popular magazine, lent her name to a board game and its computer version, and began rolling out guidebooks. [00:01:40]

Friend: No, no. She- Oh, you're talking about Dr. Ruth. Yes. Dr. Ruth. Yes. Is it Dr. Ruth? You

Michael: already did Dr.

Ruth, didn't you?

Friend: Dr. [00:01:50] Ruth?

Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Dr. Ruth. Oh, no.

Archival: No. Gee, golly. Is, is there any [00:02:00] magic to finding the right person? Someone says, "Oh, you know, there's a whole formula to it." Is it simple? D- do you find it that way? No, it's not simple. No. But there's no formula. Mm-hmm. And what [00:02:10] it has to do is exactly what you and I are doing right now.

Yes. Look into each other's eyes. Exactly. Contact. And listen carefully. Don't just [00:02:20] already think about what you're gonna have for dinner later. Mm-hmm. But listen to that other person, and have this openness of saying, "I [00:02:30] really am interested in that person." Right, right. That will show on your face. It shows on yours.

Alison: Yes.

Archival: See that? That you are interested in what people bring to you.[00:02:40]

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne

Alison: And I'm Allison [00:02:50] Osborne

Michael: And on this show, we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography what didn't we know what can we not see [00:03:00] clearly and what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today, Ruth Westheimer, better known as Dr.

Ruth, died at 2024, age [00:03:10] 96. This is a long time coming.

Alison: Yes, it is.

Michael: It's good to have you here. Hi. Uh, so if it wasn't clear from the introduction, you're [00:03:20] Alison Osborne, my wife. Um- Correct ... and I've been wanting to have you on the podcast for a long time.

Alison: Yeah. You

Michael: and I have been in a pretty good run lately over [00:03:30] the last, I don't know, few weeks, months?

Um, we just celebrated our 20th anniversary, and you planned a fabulous trip to, what was it, [00:03:40] North Bend, Washington outside of Seattle?

Alison: Snoqualmie, Washington.

Michael: Snoqualmie, yeah. Hot tub, old-growth forests, like breathwork, um, and like-

Alison: [00:03:50] Waterfalls.

Michael: Yeah. Like the whole thing was- ... like really romantic and awesome, and then we come home, and then you just got back from a trip to the Esalen Institute [00:04:00] in Big Sur.

Yes. Do you wanna say a word about that?

Alison: Esalen.

Michael: Esalen. Um- Am I saying that wrong?

Alison: No, you're saying it great. Okay. I'm just repeating you- Yeah ... because I like the, I like the word.

Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And well, [00:04:10] yeah, the experience. Um,

Alison: yes, Esalen is a, um, nonprofit institute. Yeah. It is, um, quite literally on the edge of our [00:04:20] continent in Big Sur, California.

Michael: I always tell people if they've seen the last episode of B- uh, of Mad Men.

Alison: That's right.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: When they zoom out- Yeah ... and you see all those people standing on the edge of-

Michael: [00:04:30] Shooting the Coke

Alison: commercial ... a cliff on the ocean. Yeah. Um, that is q- actually Big Sur. That is actually Esalen. Yeah. Um, but yes, it's right on the edge.

Uh, it's, [00:04:40] uh, been around since the 1960s. It's a center for human growth, exploration. Yeah. Um, and you can go and take workshops [00:04:50] there. Um, all kinds of things. Uh, you name it, they have it, but, um, I just went and did a conscious body movement workshop.

Michael: Is that what it's called? Conscious [00:05:00] body movement? I s- I've t- been telling people you're doing a dance thing, like freeform dance.

Yeah,

Alison: I mean, it i- it is essentially dance- Yeah ... but dance in its most elemental form, I suppose. Yeah. Um, free movement- Mm-hmm ... [00:05:10] dance. Um, and I spent five days dancing in a yurt on a cliff- ... over the ocean.

Michael: This tells you a lot about what kind of wife, [00:05:20] uh- And- ... I have, yeah. No, I mean-

Alison: Meeting my essence, you know?

Michael: And I d- I think it's worth saying, like, I mean, you and I went [00:05:30] to live music a lot. Like, we've danced, you know, a lot of our relationship, but dance has sort of taken a new- Yeah ... level for you recently.

Alison: It really has. Um, [00:05:40] and it is one of the quickest ways for me to ground myself-

Michael: Yeah ...

Alison: to connect with myself.

It's joyful. It's, um, oddly [00:05:50] emotional. It's cathartic.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: Uh, it's just amazing, and you know, I'm midlife. I wanna get to know the new me in my mid-life, and this is one way I have [00:06:00] decided to do that. And it's, it's, it's a really incredible place. And on top of that, you know, I'm in Hot Springs, um- Right ... I'm- Edge of the

Michael: continent.

Alison: You're in- ... doing [00:06:10] breathwork. I'm eating food that's been grown on site. Right. You know, meeting people who are also trying to figure themselves out and in a good place. Um, it's really awesome.

Michael: Okay, so that timeline to me was a little [00:06:20] bit important. We celebrate 20th anniversary. You take, you know, five days to go have this experience, and, uh, in all of that I'm like, "This [00:06:30] is..."

I'm trying to tee us up for success. Yes. Uh, just because, like, you know, I've been wanting to have you on the podcast a lot- ... and your, your [00:06:40] presence looms large on this show. Yeah. I mean, I talk about you all the time. Um, but it was sort of like, "Who is gonna be the perfect guest?" And w- when we were in [00:06:50] Washington, we watched that documentary on Dr.

Ruth, and we're like, "Oh, that's that." Yeah. "That's that." And I think we can keep this, you know, responsible and sanitized, even though [00:07:00] we're talking about a th- That's right ... sex therapist today. That's right. Um, the last thing I wanna say is I love my new rock. My wife brought me a meditation rock. Allison brought me- Mm

this rock from, [00:07:10] uh, from Esalen, and-

Alison: A palm stone, yeah.

Michael: Yeah. It's for your palm. It's just beautiful and awesome, and I can't wait to, um, hold it while I meditate. And it's, it, it, there's... We're gonna [00:07:20] imbue this rock with meaning as we- That's right ... as we record an episode about Dr. Ruth.

Alison: About Ruth

Michael: Westheimer.

Let's

Alison: just go for it. Okay.

Michael: Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. [00:07:30] Ruth Westheimer, the grandmotherly therapist who as Dr. Ruth became America's best-known sex counselor with her frank, [00:07:40] funny radio and television programs, died on Friday at her home in Manhattan. She was 96. Initial reactions, what do you think?

Alison: [00:07:50] So it was okay

Michael: That's kinda where I was. I mean, it's like, yeah. I mean, all true. Grandmotherly, eh, [00:08:00] kind of lingered on that word a little bit. Um, best-known sex counselor, definitely. She, I mean, we're gonna get into that. Frank, funny radio television. I mean, frank and funny.

Alison: All true.

Michael: [00:08:10] Yeah, but kinda generic and kinda bland for-

Alison: Yeah

Michael: a woman whose impact and whose celebrity... I mean, okay, so I, I feel like there's [00:08:20] two problems at the high level for me, and I'm wondering if this is where you're at, too. Problem number one is these are kinda lame words. Frank and funny? I mean, come on. Um, [00:08:30] and then problem number two for me is I really could have used a, a, a hint about the backstory that, like, everything in her life leading up to her [00:08:40] becoming the grandmotherly therapist is incredible.

Fascinating. Is fascinating- Yeah ... right? And, like, you know, I... The word unlikely or some synonym, you know, [00:08:50] of, uh... J- Something to just, like, spark a little intrigue. Yeah. So, you know, fine, yeah, accurate, sure, and this is all true, but [00:09:00] also kind of disappointing.

Alison: Yeah. That was

Michael: my reaction. Kinda disappointing. Yeah.

Alison: Very vanilla. Um-

Michael: Did I, did I capture well what your reaction was? I think you

Alison: did. I mean, I felt like... I did have to remind myself, "Okay, [00:09:10] Allison, you're very enthusiastic about this woman-" Yeah ... "and you've learned a lot." Well. And, and, you know, the obituary is what do people best know her for? Yes. The general populace, [00:09:20] right?

Right. And so it's not that they did- they said anything not true. They hit some of the, the highlights, but I feel like they said nothing about her significance.

Michael: Yeah, like

Alison: pioneering or- Even her later- Yeah ... [00:09:30] e- e- even just as a sex counselor- Yeah ... and what that meant- Yeah, yeah ... you know? Um, during a time that is pre-Internet, h- you know, height of the AIDS crisis, all of this stuff happening.

Oh, right. [00:09:40] Um, and, and she is grandmotherly, she is frank and funny, but, like, she's... I would say, even to the general populace, she's small.

Michael: [00:09:50] Yeah.

Alison: They didn't mention her accent.

Michael: Diminutive, yeah.

Alison: Her joy or humor. Yeah. Like, they didn't-

Michael: Yes ...

Alison: they didn't really mention any of that. They did say funny, but I mean-

Michael: But, but funny is so bland

yeah. I mean, you know, if I said, "I [00:10:00] have a friend named Fred and he's funny-" Yeah ... like, that tells you nothing. Right. You know? Like- Right ... kind of, like, peculiarly hilarious, and then I, I, I really like the idea of [00:10:10] something unlikely here because, one, she, h- her, the, the, the events that brought her to us and, uh, to, you know, her being on our [00:10:20] television were very unlikely.

And then, and then that she is this sex counselor who is famous also is like, of all people, you [00:10:30] know? You just... You wouldn't have- Yeah ... you wouldn't have- Yeah ... predicted this. And, and the, the, the kind of, like, serendipity of it all, um, and, and her... I, [00:10:40] I, I just... Like, the journey, it, you know, it's not hinted at in here.

Okay, can we talk about grandmotherly for a second?

Alison: Yes.

Michael: Does that feel like the right word to you? I mean, does that [00:10:50] feel, I, I think it is Probably good, and I'm stepping on something I love about her, but I do, and this came up in the quiz, I do [00:11:00] love that her fame didn't really start until late 40s, 50. I, uh, as of this recording, am 47 years old.

Dr. Ruth was [00:11:10] 47 when she first went on the radio, and she didn't get her TV show- Yeah ... until she was 50. I need these examples. Yeah, we need

Alison: these examples.

Michael: Or, or I need these [00:11:20] examples. I said I'm making it about me. Yes, you did. No, but seriously. Yes, you did. I, you know, I was in a conversation with a friend earlier who, about my age, and it's like sometimes I feel [00:11:30] like I missed the boat on life, you know?

That I w- something was supposed to have happened by now. 47 before she steps into the thing that, like, [00:11:40] vaults her to this, you know, experience and status- Yeah ... and celebrity. Like, I love that. Um-

Alison: Yeah, I mean, we're hin- hinting at an upward staircase, but, like, that is-

Michael: Right.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: It's- It, [00:11:50] it, that's, I mean, it's so wonderful.

Yeah. And it warms my heart every time I see somebody who, you know, whose, whose rocket ship takes off, you know, not in their 20s. [00:12:00] Um, s- and, and all of that for me gives me pause with the word grandmotherly. I think she is grandmotherly. I think she does seem like somebody's grandma and, and is [00:12:10] somebody's grandma.

Um, but it's kinda the only colorful word for me in this obituary, which is why I wanted to talk about it.

Alison: Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's [00:12:20] inaccurate, especially in more recent times. She was very grandmotherly, right? Mm-hmm. When she got started, I, I definitely take offense that they would say grandmotherly if she was 50.

About 50,

Michael: yeah.

Alison: [00:12:30] Yeah.

Michael: That's ageist. Yeah, it's like-

Alison: But I, I think the juxtaposition- Somebody's

Michael: past her prime. Yeah.

Alison: I think, I think the juxtaposition of grandmotherly sex therapist- Yeah ... [00:12:40] was her secret sauce. Yeah. So I think, I think if you get those two together-

Archival: I'm 4'7". I am not shrinking, and I can't permit myself to shrink.

Otherwise, [00:12:50] you are not going to see me. You are only going to hear me. Anybody here who has a partner,

Alison: tonight a different position.

Michael: So why didn't they say grandmotherly sex [00:13:00] therapist? I mean, it says grandmotherly, grandmotherly therapist and then best known as a sex counselor. Mm. Like, they separate it out.

The more I look at this- Yeah ... the more frustrated I am with it. I just, I, I needed [00:13:10] 15 pieces of flair here, and I got nothing, you know?

Alison: Yeah, yeah.

Michael: Um, so I, you know, I had an initial score. Do you have a score?

Alison: Uh, I went with six.

Michael: Okay. That's where I was at. I [00:13:20] had, I initially went seven. I'm going six. It's, it's accurate and true.

Right. I just sort of... And, and the rest of the obituary does capture all this stuff we're talking about, [00:13:30] so the author knew it. They just didn't put the extra effort into- No

Alison: weighty words ... no- No words that hinted at things beneath.

Michael: As first lines go- Yeah ... it's disappointing, [00:13:40] right? As first lines go, I wanted more, even though all of this is right and they, they did their job.

What do you think of somebody who only does the bare minimum? Um, I give 'em a six. That's [00:13:50] what I do. All right, six it is, six. Thanks, Rudy. Six, we agree Let's move on. Category two, five things I love about you. Five things I love about you. Ah, here Allison and I developed a list [00:14:00] of five things that will offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived.

Kick us off, honey.

Alison: Okay. Um, I'm gonna start with one [00:14:10] that I feel strongly about, but I also think is just the right thing to start with, is that, um, I would use the term, and I saw it written about her, um, radical [00:14:20] normalization of sexual health- Yeah ... and sexual experience.

Michael: Yeah, like right out of the gate we gotta go- Yeah

with the obvious. Yeah. Yes.

Alison: Um, because it was a big deal, and I think you have to pause for a second and [00:14:30] think about the timing. Mm. Mostly, maybe late 70s, but 80s- Yeah ... this is when she started. Um, this is pre-internet. [00:14:40] And she is helping people understand themselves sexually, answer hard questions. And I mean, really imagine, like pre-internet, if you had questions [00:14:50] about, "Is what's going on with me normal?"

Right. Right? Right. Or fears about, "Is my thinking normal or my desires normal?" Things like that. You start... Y- y- you would [00:15:00] have to be brave enough to go into a library-

Michael: Yeah ...

Alison: or a bookstore-

Michael: Yeah ...

Alison: and physically buy this book that might answer it or might not. Right. Right? Right. Um, [00:15:10] especially if it's a niche type thing.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: Um, and that, that's really it. Or talk to somebody, but who are you, you know, who are you gonna talk to?

Michael: Yeah. Um- And then I think what you're speaking to is the stigma [00:15:20] we had and the d- discomfort we had talking about sex.

Alison: Well, plus there was more stigma then.

Michael: Right,

Alison: right. Um, but on top of that- There was both, yeah

you had to be, you know, that's how you had to find information. [00:15:30] Now, I can start to Google something. Not only will it give me results that I can go read and understand better, to, like, really, you know, complex or [00:15:40] detailed- Right ... you know, things you might be interested in, but

Michael: it'll also- Or often normal questions, though.

That's the thing, is, like, questions that- Yeah ... are we now- Normal questions ... consider normal. Like, it doesn't even have to be you have some peculiarity. [00:15:50] Even, like, the run-of-the-mill, you know, dysfunction or hang-ups or, you know, I've run into this problem with my partner kinda stuff, right?

Alison: Well, [00:16:00] and, and we have the beauty of even Google Search autofill, right?

Yeah, yeah. So you start to, to ask this question that's concerning you. It will autofill it, and you're like, "Oh- Yeah ... other people have Googled [00:16:10] this too." Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, there's this feeling of, okay, okay, this is a normal thing.

Michael: Right. Um-

Alison: Pressure release

Michael: valve ...

Alison: all before that, right? Yeah. Um, so the significance of her talking about [00:16:20] it, um, she also, it was the height of the AIDS crisis- Yeah

um, when there was a lot of misinformation. Yes.

Archival: Unafraid to discuss difficult subjects, she was one of [00:16:30] the first people to use her platform to address the AIDS epidemic. It was a very unpopular topic, because gay people at the time, not only were a [00:16:40] minority, they were despised. She refused to stigmatize people with AIDS, and instead tried to educate her viewers about both HIV and [00:16:50] homosexuality.

Some people are attracted to members of their own sex, and I believe strongly that we as a [00:17:00] society have to give these people all the respect. It seems the high proportion of people who are dying and succumbing to [00:17:10] the AIDS virus are still in the homosexual community, intravenous drug users, which I believe- I don't waste a moment of my time to blame one or another [00:17:20] group.

I say let's educate and let's find a cure.

Michael: This actually gets to my number two to some extent. Um, but I don't wanna move on to that 'cause I think what [00:17:30] misinformation as well as prejudice against- Yeah ... the gay community- Yeah ... and LGBTQ community- Yeah ... or whatever.

Alison: Okay. Well, then I'll skip over that, but I'll say one more thing to this, is that I think her [00:17:40] grandmotherliness was where this really, um, made an impact because, I mean, you know, we have this conversation about grandmother approved, right?

It's like a [00:17:50] marketing trope. It's a- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... you know what I mean? And, um, having somebody that looks like your grandmother Normalizing something sexual that you're [00:18:00] asking about- Yeah ... like, is gonna give you so much c- like, comfort or, or, you know what I mean?

Michael: Yeah, yeah, no, I think it actually... Uh, I'll, I'll put it a [00:18:10] different way, and I hope I'm not sticking my foot in my mouth here.

You wouldn't look at her and think sexual being. No. Right? Uh, uh, she's 4'7", uh, smiles a [00:18:20] lot, acts like grandmotherly, you know, hair, and that she is very comfortably talking about anatomy and problems and, like, just using the language of [00:18:30] sex. You, r- you, I mean, to this day, you're sort of like, "Okay." I mean, you're, like...

It, it's a reminder that we're all sexual beings. We're all, yeah. Right? Yeah. And, and, [00:18:40] and I think that part of the normalization of the conversation that she brought is that we tend to look at people who are beautiful and who, who are, [00:18:50] are like, uh, who we either objectify, uh, or who are, like, gunning to be obj- objectified, right?

And we all kinda fall prey to this. And I mean, [00:19:00] her point is like, well, we're all sexual beings, and, and i- and that that is embodied in her, you know, stature, lit- literal [00:19:10] size and- ... funny voice is all like... It just makes it... It just, it just releases so much pressure, to your point. Um, okay. I love that. Yeah.

That's a strong [00:19:20] number one. It's very close to my number two. Um, I wrote scientists who lived long enough to say, "I told you so." Um, because I think that there's, there's a lot [00:19:30] of, uh... I think a lot of scientists are like this. Um, once upon a time- Mm ... I studied, uh- Mm-hmm ... I was a scientist myself once upon a time, and I sometimes think that all the [00:19:40] climate scientists in the world are kind of like, they don't really think this, but they're sort of like, "Decades from now, we'll be able to say, I told you so."

They don't really wanna say that. Would that feel good? But it would ... No, [00:19:50] it would not, but it is, um, important that history catches up with science and that the rest of sci- uh, society comes to a place where like, oh, this person [00:20:00] understood this from a data-driven, you know, um, research-driven- Mm-hmm

perspective. And I feel like she's [00:20:10] on, on top of that very early on, and that history vindicates her willingness to, one, talk about any kind of, like, sexual [00:20:20] dysfunction. Um, but a- and, and as well as, like, taboo topics like masturbation. Um, but also especially, and this is [00:20:30] where it relates to the AIDS crisis, like consenting adults, it's okay, right?

And that we need to not have all these hang-ups around it. Right. Which what's so funny [00:20:40] about her to me in some ways is that in so many other ways, she looks really sort of buttoned up and conservative. Not exactly, but like... I mean, if, I was thinking about this. If her [00:20:50] specialty was sports medicine, right?

We would not- It would not be, like we would not remember her necessarily, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It, it would, it would just be [00:21:00] like- Yeah, it's that juxtaposition ... she's talking about what athletes do. It, it, it is that, like everything, uh, else about her is pretty conventional and [00:21:10] comfortable and feels like, you know, the kind of like, it, it carries, carries a sort of, um, e- expertise stature with it that, [00:21:20] uh, that I feel like, "Okay, we're just gonna, we're just gonna talk about this otherwise taboo topic," and in doing so expose how ridiculous all our [00:21:30] hangups are about it.

Um, but I also- I love that.

Alison: Yeah ...

Michael: yeah. But I don't know, most everybody seems pretty on board with an attitude that [00:21:40] she was bringing to the airwaves in the 1970s- Way ahead ... and the 1980s. Way ahead. Way ahead. Yeah. Um, so it's, it's a different angle on your number two.

Alison: Yeah. What did [00:21:50] she say? Um, what goes on privately behind closed doors between consensual adults is normal.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: It doesn't matter what it is. Yeah. Right?

Michael: [00:22:00] Yeah.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: What do you got for number three?

Alison: Good one.

Michael: Thank you.

Alison: Um, okay.

I'm gonna go with [00:22:10] soda pop energy Oh And I had to use soda pop because our kids are into K-pop demon hunters- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... and that's just on the mind. Yeah. But I s- several people [00:22:20] described her energy as fizzy.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: Um, and I definitely felt that when we watched her, um, her documentary, her most recent documentary.

She's

Michael: charismatic.

Alison: [00:22:30] Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean- She's- ... she is so full of joyful energy- Yeah ... enthusiasm, joie de vivre, like, whatever you wanna call it, it, it just exudes out of her.

Michael: Yeah. [00:22:40]

Alison: Every l- like, tiny millimeter of her. And she- She

Michael: finishes every sentence with a smile. Yeah. Every sentence is, "Yeah." She goes, "Yeah."

And, and like, it's the most, [00:22:50] like,

Alison: mm,

Michael: you know? Yeah. It just, like, makes you, like, charm. It's so unbelievably charming. It's-

Alison: So unbelievably charming. Yeah. But, but it's, it's, it's not all... I mean, I'm sure she turns it [00:23:00] on, right? Yeah. She had a TV personality. She was good at that. But, like, you sense that it's real.

Her joy is real. Yes. And, um, you know, when the camera crew was following her around for that [00:23:10] documentary, you know, they're, they're following her in a s- field in Switzerland 'cause they're revisiting this-

Michael: Her childhood,

Alison: yeah ... her childhood orphanage, right? It was a, a [00:23:20] hard time for her. And they're, they're walking through this field and she literally looks over and is like, "Oh, a cow."

Like, she's just so excited- Yeah. ... to see it. And then she's, like, l- pointing out this rainbow. And like, [00:23:30] she's just so present and taking joy in the life in front of her. And you know, she walked fast, she befriended everyone, she played chess with her [00:23:40] grandkids in her 90s. I mean, she was just full of energy and joy, and I was so captivated by it.

Archival: A lot of people call me- And, uh, many young [00:23:50] people call because they have questions about contraceptives. And you know what I say? I say women, all women out there, if they think that they might be sexually active, [00:24:00] should carry condoms in their pocketbooks. Did you know that they come in all colors? They can be matched to a pocketbook.

Yeah. And then I tell the guy to put a condom over his [00:24:10] finger and to scratch his finger with his hand to show that, uh, really the sensation is still there. That... Because very often men say, [00:24:20] "I'm not gonna take a condom. A condom is like taking a shower with a raincoat on."

Michael: Can I just say something? This is what I love about you, too.

I mean, [00:24:30] not all the time. Well. You and I both know it's not like- Not always. No, not always. But, like, you, I- I re- I'll never forget, when we were [00:24:40] living in California, um, w- uh, we had just met, uh, Matt and Eve, and Eve ran into you running, coming out of the office, and she's like, "Oh, [00:24:50] she's just this ray of sunshine."

It was the first time I'd heard that phrase. You are a ray of sunshine. Aw. And Dr. Ruth is a ray of sunshine, too. Definitely. But there is a, um, a, a [00:25:00] there, there is a, like, ha, a just a wonderful vibes around her. So I- I think- Yeah ... so what, how did you phrase this?

Alison: Well, that's the best compliment you could give me, then.

Yeah. 'Cause I'm, I'm so attracted to that in her. [00:25:10] And, um, I think she's

Michael: so Soda Pop-

Alison: I think you cultivate that,

Michael: too. I think sh- she cultivates- She's so Soda Pop energy.

Alison: I don't know if that's the best thing. No. Joie de vivre. It's very- I mean, joie de vivre is really the essence there, right? Like-

Michael: I think, I like fizzy, though, too.

Yeah. I like [00:25:20] bubbly. I mean, I like a kind of, like- Mm-hmm ... I like, uh, I like, not just charming, but with, like, an energetic, you know, undercurrent. You know? Mm-hmm. Sort of like, um, you know, something [00:25:30] electric underneath.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: You

Alison: know? And it, it's how she chooses to react to the world- Yeah ... to be in the world.

Like, she's got a lot of personal tragedy. We'll get to that. Yeah. But she's [00:25:40] chosen that path, and it's authentic. You know? It feels authentic.

Michael: I think I'm gonna get to it now with my thing number four. Uh, I wrote she was a f- I'm gonna drop an F-bomb. She was a [00:25:50] f***ing sniper. Um, I, her... So we haven't talked about it yet, and I feel like we've got to tell the at least short version of her backstory.

It may come up again. Yeah. So she [00:26:00] was an only child, uh, in Germany. Her parents got her out, uh, her, her dad was sort of insistent on it, um, that, and she wound up in [00:26:10] a, a home that ended up being an orphanage in Switzerland where she-

Alison: It was part of Ki- the Kindertransport. Right. So where they actually moved children into other countries from Germany.

Michael: Right. Um- [00:26:20] And, uh, and she, you know, at the end of the war d- learned that her parents had died. I mean, there was a day where they were saying who survived, and her parents' name were [00:26:30] not, was not called. Um, so she-

Alison: Well, and, and she had sensed it. Sorry, but this broke my heart. No, she did. Like, she, she's in this orphanage away from all of her family, who she was [00:26:40] very close to.

Yes. She had a very tight-knit family, and is exchanging letters with them over time, and then the letters stop. And then

Michael: the letters stop.

Alison: Like that, that br- I mean, they just stop.

Michael: So [00:26:50] okay, so and, and in that orphanage, you know, takes an interest in books, becomes self-educated in many, many ways. She's an intellectually curious person.

Eventually makes [00:27:00] it to, um, what is now Israel. It was Palestine at the time. It was before the country was founded. And she was r- uh, recruited to be a sniper. And she would [00:27:10] say, uh, "I'm an unbelievable shot." Apparently she never experienced combat, but she did, uh, she was in, what was it, like, a girls' dorm that was bombed [00:27:20] where she almost lost her feet.

Um, and then, and then it's around that time I think she marries her first husband, and then they wind up in Paris, and she goes to the [00:27:30] Sorbonne where she did not have a degree but was able to finagle her way in. Study psychology. Uh-huh. Yeah. And then, and then eventually makes it, whatever. I mean, eventually makes it over to the [00:27:40] US and then takes an interest in, I think she's working at Planned Parenthood, whatever.

All of this is captured for me in fucking Sniper. Sniper. Like, she's a, so yeah. Four

Alison: foot seven [00:27:50] inch sniper.

Michael: Right.

Like, what? You know what I mean, like- You're like a soldier, dude. I'm like, "Oh my God." Soldier.

Alison: Um,

Michael: and- Yeah ... and there's [00:28:00] something about the fact that, like, she's bullseye that is, like, there, there is a directness to her. You know? I kinda feel like she [00:28:10] carries that sniper- Yeah ... 'cause this is the thing about- Yeah

when you hear her advice- It gets to the

Alison: heart of the matter, you know?

Michael: Totally. Yeah. When you hear her advice, it's not all that complicated. Most of the time she's like, "Nope, nope, let me [00:28:20] just get to the point." Yeah. You know? It's simple. It's like honing in on the target. Um, and so- Sniper ... I wanted to b- bring, use sniper- Sniper

to bring up her backstory a little bit, but I [00:28:30] actually think, in a way, it becomes a metaphor in her life- Yeah ... for what, like, her advice is all about. It's targeted. Yeah. Maybe that's a better way of putting it. All right, so what do you got for number five?

Alison: [00:28:40] Okay, so it's, it's close cousins to the one I did before, but it is about how...

You know, the other one I feel like I said in s- terms of her soda pop [00:28:50] energy is about how she chooses to deal with the world. This is more how she chooses to interact with others, and she's a flirt.

Michael: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:00]

Alison: And I don't mean that she's sexual with other people. No, she's flirty. I mean she's playful.

Yeah. She's playful. Yeah. And she, she's decided to interact with people in a playful [00:29:10] way, and I just love it. It's so fun to watch her. Like, you, you can't stop watching her on screen 'cause whoever she's talking to, she's playing with them. She's magnetic. Totally. Yeah, she's playing with [00:29:20] them. She's trying t- And, and it's a level of, um, it's a level of interacting with people that's below- Ideology.

It's below politics. Yeah. It's below [00:29:30] class. You know what I mean? It's like, let me connect to your playfulness. Right. It's very- Let me connect to you on this level. Let me get... You know what I mean? And, and when you do that, and, and that's [00:29:40] sexuality is too, right? Yeah, yeah. Like, um, and so I just, I love, I love that about her.

And I mean, she held hands with everybody. She'd like kiss people on the cheek. She would ask if they'd [00:29:50] eaten anything. Yeah, yeah. You know? She befriended her drivers. Yeah. She befriended her, uh, doorman. They loved her. Yeah, yeah. You know, the, the guy who did the documentary on her, they became best [00:30:00] friends.

Like she would fill up, she maxed out his in, uh, his- His inbox ... voicemail box. Yeah,

Michael: right. She'd

Alison: call him every day and check on him. Yeah. Like, I mean, it- she's just a, she was a flirty love. Yeah. You [00:30:10] know?

Michael: And so much of her, like what she brings, does seem conscious. Some- it does seem like a choice. You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm, yeah. Like she does seem like to have decided to be [00:30:20] joyful- Yeah ... and to decided to be a humanitarian and, and so forth. Yeah. And I think some of that is built on trauma, but- Yes ... um, but I, but, but what better [00:30:30] use of that traumatic history- Right ... than, uh, I mean, it- there's a lot of like you only live once attitude about her.

You only live once.

Alison: Enjoy, bring joy, bring presence. Yeah. [00:30:40] You know, don't dwell on the past. I think that was very much her philosophy.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: But playful.

Michael: Awesome list. Let's recap. So number one, you said?

Alison: Radical [00:30:50] normalization, sexual health.

Michael: Number two, I said, uh, scientist who lived long enough to say, "I told you so."

Uh, number three, you said?

Alison: Soda pop, energy.

Michael: Soda pop. I like fizzy. Can [00:31:00] we do fizzy? She's fizzy. Fizzy. Joie de vivre. Whatever. Joie de vivre. Yeah. Uh, number four, fucking sniper. Uh, and then five, uh, you said-

Alison: She's a [00:31:10] flirt ...

Michael: a flirt. Awesome list. All right. Let's take a break[00:31:20]

All right, category three, one love. In this category, Allison and I will each choose one word or phrase that characterizes Dr. Ruth's loving relationships. First, we'll review the [00:31:30] data. So, uh, three marriages. She married an Israeli soldier and physician, David, in 1950. She was about 21, 22 years old. They moved to Paris together, divorced in [00:31:40] '55.

She was about 26, 27 when they divorced. Second marriage, a Frenchman named Dan Baumer in the 19- mid-1950s. Um, she was [00:31:50] probably 28, 29. They moved to New York together. Their daughter, Miriam, was born during this marriage. Uh, it ended in divorce in the late '50s, early '60s, a little hard to pin [00:32:00] it down, uh, when she was about 30, 32.

Then finally she married, uh, Fre- uh, s- sorry, she married Manfred, Fred, Manfred. I like the name Manfred. Fred Westheimer [00:32:10] in 1961. She's 33 years old, and this was the defining relationship of her life. Love of her life. They, um, Fred adopted [00:32:20] Miriam, and they, uh, then had a son, Joel, and then remained married for 36 years until Fred's death in, uh, 1997.

She was 69 when Fred died. Uh, [00:32:30] and then lived the rest of her life single, uh, didn't marry again. Single and flirty. Single and flirty. Uh, so two children, a- and then a bunch of grandkids. [00:32:40] What'd you have here? I actually found this kinda hard.

Alison: Yeah, I struggled with it. And, um, I decided to simplify in terms of what I went [00:32:50] with.

Yeah. I, I just went with that she had one grand love, long-term love, which is, to me, something very- Are

Michael: you into that? Is

Alison: that- [00:33:00] Yeah, I'm into that. Aren't you? Aren't you lucky?

Michael: Is that something that appeals to you? Or are you the kind of, like, you know, "I wanna mix it up a little bit"?

Alison: Gosh- Yeah ... I think that that's a- Yeah

important life, uh, experience. Yeah. [00:33:10] You know? Um, so, so I said, "One love to rule them all." I thought maybe it was appropriate- Yes, that's good ... The Lord of the Rings, given, you know- That's good ... the hobbits, the- Yeah.

Michael: Yeah ...

Alison: [00:33:20] goblins, what have you. Yeah. But, um-

Michael: Sure. She does have, she does have, uh, f- you know, fantasy novel vibes around her.

Right? There's definitely- Yeah ... [00:33:30] uh, yeah, I like that, one love to rule them all. I mean, it's, it's, y- we don't, we know what the story is, but we really don't know [00:33:40] what the story is. It's not clear why those first two marriages didn't take. Um, and I found them a little bit surprising. And you ... But this is kind of the [00:33:50] boundary drawing thing.

Um-

Alison: She called them legalized love affairs.

Michael: Yeah. Um, that's, that sounds right. The first two

Alison: marriages. And I- Yeah ...

Michael: I, it seems like- [00:34:00] More marriages than you would think- Yes ... for somebody who's- Yeah ... otherwise conservative. But I like lo- one love to rule them all. Um, and I like the fantasy novel thing. I, I [00:34:10] was thinking in the same direction.

I started to say they're always after me lucky charms, but she's not Irish, she's German, so 'cause there is a little bit, there is a little bit of a, like, [00:34:20] leprechaun thing. But not, I mean, she's not a lepre- you know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Like, there's, there, there... She does seem like a figure out of a fantasy novel.

Yeah. 4'7" and the way she, like, trots around, too, you know? Yes. Fantastic. The, the walk is so [00:34:30] like doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo. The giggle. Yeah.

Alison: She has a giggle.

Michael: She has a gi- Yeah ... she's a giggler. Great giggler. All right. So I went with the gingerbread house from Hansel and Gretel. Mm. Um, so-

Alison: Let's expand on [00:34:40] that

Michael: well, I, I don't know if this metaphor really holds up. I was thinking, she's German, so I was thinking about German- Ah ... fairy tales. Um, I was also thinking about [00:34:50] actually the boundaries and what we do and do not know, that you look at it, at, you look at a gingerbread house, and it looks tasty, and it's like, "Oh, I'm kind of hu- I'd like to have," and then [00:35:00] but do I actually wanna take it apart and eat it?

And what's going on inside? Are you telling me- I don't really know ... Dr. Ruth looks tasty? No. I'm saying, no, I'm saying that[00:35:10]

w- the, the, the first impression of what she offers i, i, in terms of the life that's put together, it, o- on the surface [00:35:20] it looks like, oh, that's, that's a, that's a nice gingerbread house. A- again, the metaphor may really fall apart, but-

Alison: Grandmotherly, if you will ... the

Michael: longer I look at it- Baking is happening

the, the more I, the more [00:35:30] questions I have. And- Well,

Alison: they're known for not actually tasting that good

Michael: I, and I, I'm not trying to offer commentary on what kind of [00:35:40] wife, mother, or anything like that she was. But what I am, you know, th- there, I think what I'm really mostly trying to point to is mystery. You know?

Yeah. I, I, I [00:35:50] think I am sort of satisfied with how much I know about her life and the events. Mm-hmm. I do think that part of her [00:36:00] public narrative is cultivated and is conscious. That she tells you what the story is, and then she doesn't tell you, you know, necessarily deeper story. Hmm. So I think [00:36:10] she's even drawing boundaries.

I mean, she's really drawing boundaries as a celebrity such as she is. Um, a- I, I, I don't feel hungry for [00:36:20] more, and maybe that's the gingerbread point, is that I actually ultimately- You're okay with it. Yeah ... yeah. Mm-hmm. It's like, that's a nice looking thing. I don't know if I need, you know, I'm not hungry to, to, to, to, to devour [00:36:30] it.

Alison: Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. I think that's- Little

Michael: bit of a reach, but I like that. I like

Alison: that

Michael: Okay. And I also, I love that we both are kind of dancing around fantasy fairytale-

Alison: Uh-huh ...

Michael: figures. I mean, it's sort of hard not [00:36:40] to with her.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: Um, okay. Category four, net worth. In this category we will guess the net worth of Dr.

Ruth. The results are sourced from the website [00:36:50] celebritynetworth.com, take that for what it's worth. Uh, we're gonna write down our numbers ahead of time before we will reveal, and finally we will place Dr. Ruth on the Famous Ingravie net worth leaderboard. I'll just say, [00:37:00] I think she's secretly loaded I think she's loaded.

Um, where that's coming from is, one, syndicated TV. The history of Famous in Gravy tells me [00:37:10] that if you are, you know, on syndicated- Mm-hmm ... TV, you've done pretty well. Mm-hmm. Second, crazy prolific as a, as an author. Um, I mean, she's got, like, [00:37:20] dozens of books, um, including Sex for Dummies, right? Yeah. And like, I, I think that she...

Like, you put her name on a book and people just grab it at the [00:37:30] airport without thinking- Right ... too much of it.

Alison: Well, and lots of commercials.

Michael: Lots of commercials. Mm-hmm. Um, I also think that I l- I do... This is a thing I actually thought about [00:37:40] saying I love about her. I love that she never moved from her New York apartment.

I

Alison: was gonna bring that up.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. It's so, um... I mean, that she's in community and like, "I don't need to be anywhere else. I don't need [00:37:50] the..." You know?

Alison: Small two-bedroom apartment in- Right ... Washington Heights. Every- Right? I

Michael: don't know. Or Manhattan. You know New York better than I do. Um- But, uh, yeah, I would have...

You would have thought, and apparently friends were encouraging. [00:38:00] Well, and

Alison: she pointed out it was rent-controlled.

Michael: Right. Right. Right. And, and, you know, it, it, and it's welcoming. It's great, and she's satisfied with that, so I think [00:38:10] she's, I think she's- She

Alison: lives beneath her means, for sure ...

Michael: sneaky wealthy. I also think she is diligent about her finances.

That was the impression I [00:38:20] got. Um-

Alison: I could see that.

Michael: So-

Alison: I, I think the, the thing that would weigh against it would be books don't make much money, but again, you said syndication, and I would also say that she did not [00:38:30] reach fame until much later in life.

Michael: All the more reason for that actually weighs in my favor, I think, 'cause I think she's at a place in life where she's smart about money.

Absolutely. So I think I went with a [00:38:40] high number. Should we go ahead and reveal?

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: All right. Allison Osborne wrote down 15 million.

Alison: Sure did. Looking, judging by your [00:38:50] face, you went, you went, you went hard. I went hard. Okay. Michael Osborne wrote 150 million. Add a zero.

Michael: So order [00:39:00] of magnitude. Wow.

Alison: Wow.

Michael: Okay.

Um- That was way over. Uh, at the time of her death, [00:39:10] uh, it estimated a net worth of approximately three to four million. No. No. Hang on, let's just check that. I'm offended

Alison: by that.

Michael: Four million. I am

Alison: too. I'm not ... It's fine, but, but [00:39:20] that seems strange.

Michael: I, yeah, I mean, I, I, I was way off. Samsonite. Okay. I, I probably should retire this category.

I'm an

Alison: optimist, my [00:39:30] love.

Michael: Yeah. Well, you're a lot closer, honey. Yeah. Than exactly. But,

Alison: uh- Yeah ... I, I- And I thought about 10. You know, I, yeah

Michael: Uh, well, at $4 million, this is [00:39:40] interesting, so let's go ahead and place her on the Famous Engraving net worth leaderboard. Hey. Um, so at $4 million she, there's one other person with that number, Nelson Mandela.

Alison: Really?

Michael: Dr. [00:39:50] Ruth and Nelson Mandela. So

Alison: give- She gave him some sex advice over dinner. Over canapes.

Michael: I'm sorry, that is the, uh, dinner table I'd wanna be at. This does [00:40:00] place her i- in the leaderboard quarter. Oh, I wanna be at

Alison: her dinner table, for sure.

Michael: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Um, so, uh, and that's it. Uh, she's above Jerry Jeff Walker, Burt Reynolds, Norm [00:40:10] Macdonald, Waylon Jennings, Larry McMurtry, Biz Markie, Bushwick Bill, and Diego Maradona.

Wow, okay. Um, uh, let's move on. Category five, Malkovich Malkovich or Tiny [00:40:20] Trophy. This category, a little bit of a change-up. You can either choose a trophy, an award, or a cameo, or an impersonation, some other form of a hat tip, that's the tiny [00:40:30] trophy, or you can, uh, choose a Malkovich Malkovich moment. That is named after the movie Being John Malkovich, in which you can take, uh, a little portal into somebody's mind and have a [00:40:40] front row seat to one of their experiences.

Uh, what did you go with here? This was hard, I thought.

Alison: Yeah. Um, there, there weren't a lot of things. Yeah. Um, but I [00:40:50] did, um, remember that she was in a Herbal Essence- Shampoo? ... shampoo commercial.

Michael: Really?

Alison: Yes. And they were c- in the '90s, and they ... [00:41:00] I mean, they were famous. I should have watched it right before this so I can recollect, but it's, um, they're an, it's an organic experience.

Or-ganic. Get it? Yeah. [00:41:10] And so it's like, "Oh, yes." So good. You know, people washing their hair and doing all this stuff, and, and Dr. Ruth did that commercial.

Archival: Stop by aisle[00:41:20]

five for Clairol's Herbal Essences. It takes you where no shampoo has gone before. With all natural botanicals- Oh. Oh ... and organic herbs- [00:41:30] Oh ... and pure mountain water. Oh. It will leave your hair- Yes ... looking beautiful. Oh. Yes. Yes

If you think that's [00:41:40] great, try the body wash. Clairol's Herbal Essences, a totally organic experience.

Michael: Of all things- Pretty awesome ... to share, that's, I can't believe we're at only familiar with the [00:41:50] commercial. I still use Herbal

Alison: Essences sometimes.

Michael: Does that, I mean, is that because of the- So, I mean, you know, it's,

Alison: yeah, it had longevity.

Michael: That's good. I love that. I actually went with, she was in an episode of Quantum Leap. Uh, I love the [00:42:00] TV show Quantum Leap. Oh, wow. Did

Alison: you ever watch Quantum Leap? Y- yes, but I'm- So, yeah,

Michael: Sam Beckett is trapped- He

Alison: traveled in time ...

Michael: uh, well, kind of. He was traveling into other people's [00:42:10] bodies, and so there's a scene with her and, uh, Dean Stockwell's character, uh, who was communicating with Ziggy all the time.

So, um, I like [00:42:20] that she showed up on Quantum Leap. Uh, all right, let's take one more break.

Alison: Okay.[00:42:30]

Michael: Okay. Category six, words to live by. In this category, Allison and I will each choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said about them. [00:42:40] There's a lot in a way. I mean, if you scour all the advice she gave over the years and place it in context- Mm-hmm ... [00:42:50] there's a lot of good advice that are words to live by.

Um, it's funny, you and I haven't really talked much about her sex advice-

Alison: Yeah ...

Michael: so far in this conversation. [00:43:00] Yeah. Should we? Are we supposed to... Let's keep this, you know.

Alison: Well, I mean, the, the one thing I haven't said about it is, other than just the significance of it, right? [00:43:10] Right. Is, um, she really did also talk a lot about female pleasure-

Michael: Yeah

Alison: which it, you know, was a non-topic-

Michael: Right ...

Alison: for so [00:43:20] long. Right. And, and now- I think it was a mess ... is a huge topic, right? Yeah, yeah. So, um, uh, that's just worth calling out, I

Michael: think. Yeah.

Alison: Um.

Michael: Is that, is that what you were thinking about as you were looking [00:43:30] for words to live by?

Alison: A little bit.

Michael: What'd you go with?

Alison: So, um, my quote is, "The most important six inches are the ones between [00:43:40] the ears."

Michael: It's very good.

Alison: Yes.

Michael: Yeah. That's very good.

Alison: And it's very Dr. Ruth- Yeah ... 'cause there's some fun and humor there, you know, the [00:43:50] innuendo, but it's also just, like, just so straightforward.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: You know? Everything starts- The

Michael: brain

Alison: is the main show ... in the brain. Everything starts... And especially if, I mean, know they, you say that for women, I think it's true for either.

But like-

Michael: [00:44:00] Oh, yeah ...

Alison: it starts in your brain.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: You know?

Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Alison: It starts way before the physical, so I like it.

Michael: That's interesting to hear you say that because your love language is touch, [00:44:10] like, and if you and I are fighting- ... I'm like, "Well, how about I just start tickling your arm or, like, a hug?"

Uh-huh. I don't do that. I should more.

Alison: Yes.

Michael: Um, but I...

Alison: But [00:44:20] that's my feeling cared for love language. That's not my-

Michael: That's not- ... that's

Alison: my language.

Michael: Yeah. Right. Okay. This is valuable information. This is helpful.

Alison: Let's just stop at that level, but-

Michael: No, [00:44:30] no, no. Yeah. No, I mean, I'm, like, that's good. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, that's very helpful.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Michael: Um.

Alison: 20 years, still learning things, you know?

Michael: I mean, actually, you say [00:44:40] that jokingly- ... but I, I, I think that that's one of the things I love about Dr. Ruth being this grandmotherly figure. She's not just [00:44:50] talking to people, just college students or in their 20s, 30s, or 40s. Like, this is a journey. Life is a journey, especially as we age.

Alison: Yes. You know? She talked a lot about what it meant to be [00:45:00] passionate and practical-

Michael: Yeah ...

Alison: being sexual in your later decades of life.

Michael: Yeah. She talked about that. Absolutely. And, uh, we're gonna have to figure that out. But I'm here [00:45:10] for that.

Alison: I- But is it definitely after a night's sleep- Eh ... not at the end of the day?

Michael: Yeah, no, I, look, I think, I think there's a lot of- Trust you

Alison: now.

Michael: There's a lot of considerations on the table. But, but, [00:45:20] but actually, you saying the m- most important six inches are the ones between your brain is very helpful for me or a husband- Yeah. ... to hear. [00:45:30] These are indeed words to live by. And-

Alison: Foreplay starts way before the bedroom.

Yeah. I mean, that's just another way of saying that,

Michael: right? Yeah, yeah. No, I mean- Um- ... I, look, I, I, I need to continue to be educated. [00:45:40] And I'm, I'm open to that. I'm here for this. Um, all right. Uh, interesting. I actually had in a way a similar quote, but very different. It's not about sex. Uh, she said, "The most [00:45:50] important thing for my father was learning because nobody can take that away from you."

Uh, this hit me for a couple reasons. One, [00:46:00] I, I think that, you know, for a girl who was separated from her parents at this young age- She,

Alison: everything taken away from her ...

Michael: [00:46:10] everything taken away-

Alison: Not just parents, grandparents- Right ... cousins, everything.

Michael: Family. Yeah. Really, her, their life was completely severed from any kind of connection.

But that she learned that from her [00:46:20] father, one, I connect with that. I do feel like my parents and my dad- Yeah ... in particular- They really

Alison: take that seriously ... I

Michael: mean, now you've-

Alison: Same, same with mine.

Michael: Yeah, yeah- Yeah ... very much. But, you know, I mean, [00:46:30] you know that story about before I did a gap year, right? I'm sure I told you this.

Well, I'll tell it again 'cause I think it's helpful. So, so I was a rebellious [00:46:40] teenager. I barely graduated high school. Um, and bef- I did a gap year, and I was gonna ... I did some travel. And before [00:46:50] I set off on an adventure, I'll never forget my dad saying, "Michael, when you were young, you were this very, very curious boy, and I don't know [00:47:00] what happened to that.

I don't know why you lost your curiosity, but I hope you can find that again. I hope you can get in touch with that." That's what I hear here. Yeah. Nobody can take that away from you. Nobody can take your [00:47:10] curiosity away- Yeah ... from you. And when, when you, what I feel like my parents, but my dad especially, gave me was, um, [00:47:20] the kind of prompt that if you learn to love learning- Right?

If you learn to love learning, if you [00:47:30] learn to love just the experience of, "I don't know this, and I like learning new information"- Curiosity. Yeah ... yeah, and staying in touch with your curiosity- Yeah ... then, uh, nobody can take that [00:47:40] away from you.

Alison: Nope.

Michael: Nobody can take that away from you. And I, so I thought this is beautiful.

Alison: Yeah. And the places it will take you. I mean, look at her at 96, creating a new job for [00:47:50] herself.

Michael: Thousand percent.

Alison: Because she decided, "I don't wanna answer questions about sex anymore. People are lonely." You know? And she appointed herself the ambassador to [00:48:00] loneliness for the state of New York.

Michael: Totally. Um- Yeah, yeah, that's right.

That's actually, that was an official thing, right? She's very preoccupied with the lone- loneliness epidemic- Mm-hmm ...

Alison: in the later years. You believe that first, you

Michael: know? Yeah. Yeah, she never [00:48:10] retired. Still can't believe she only

Friend: got four million.

Michael: Ugh.

Alison: Well, and one thing around the education piece that, you know, we haven't talked about, and I just, it was very impressive.

You were saying she, [00:48:20] she really focused on education when she was at the orphanage. They didn't let girls go to high school. Yeah. They had to have housekeeping training. Right. Um, and so she had her first love, um, [00:48:30] would crawl in through the window of her room- Yeah ... with his textbooks and hide under the bed.

That- I guess he didn't wanna, like, sneak back in and out- That guy in the

Michael: documentary- ... while she studied ... is so [00:48:40] unbelievably

Alison: charming. Oh, my goodness. The two of them are like, mm. Yeah, she is flirting with him so hard with his wife standing right in the corner. Um- Well, and

Michael: he's, he, he's got, he's got a, he's, he's

Alison: got- There's hearing aids in.

Yeah. And [00:48:50] you know, I mean, it's precious. But, um, what did she say? "I can still remember what your kiss tasted like."

Michael: Yeah, yeah.

Alison: She, and she studied just on her own. Right. She [00:49:00] taught herself in the middle of the night while her-

Michael: She's reading books ... boyfriend hid under the bed. And she's reading the books that only the boys were, like, having access to.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Alison: And I was really, like, that's, that's determination. [00:49:10]

Michael: Her- Yeah ... self-education is incredible. Yeah. And I'm al- I always admire anybody who just, like, takes it upon themselves to read and, like, get smart, especially [00:49:20] before the internet. Yeah. Before, you know, it was, like, at home in a library. And

Alison: keep going.

I mean- Yeah ... PhD in her 40s.

Michael: Right, right, exactly.

Alison: Amazing, yeah.

Michael: Um, category [00:49:30] seven, man in the mirror. This category asks a fairly simple question. Did this person like their reflection, yes or no? This is not a question about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus [00:49:40] self-judgment

Alison: Oh, 100%.

Michael: That's where I was at. Loved it. Even, see, I think she enjoyed being 4'7".

Alison: Oh, I, I, I know she did. [00:49:50] Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. I, I mean she, she-

Alison: I think I might enjoy being 4'7". Maybe not my whole life, just for a little bit.

Michael: I, but I think, I think, one, it had people under- underestimate [00:50:00] her, and so it was a bit of a, a superpower.

I just see confidence. I mean, it's not that complicated- And acceptance ... ultimately. Yeah. '

Alison: Cause she's not traditionally pretty by any means. Right. Really in any phase of [00:50:10] life.

Michael: Right.

Alison: Any picture I've seen. But she has this humor, this fizziness, you know, this fun, sense of fun to her that is very attractive.

Michael: All right. [00:50:20] So we both went confident yes. She liked her reflection in the mirror.

Alison: Yeah. In fact, she said at one point, she had all these dollhouses as an adult in her house, and, um, she said, [00:50:30] uh, on camera, "I love anything that is small and perfect like me."

Michael: Yeah, that's really sweet.

Alison: Um- And she didn't say it, like, in an arrogant way.

Yeah, no. It's just like, you [00:50:40] know.

Michael: Category eight, cocktail, coffee, or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most wanna do with our dead celebrity?

Alison: I definitely narrowed it on it pretty quickly.

Michael: Okay.

Alison: Um, [00:50:50] cannabis.

Michael: Oh, all right.

Alison: Yeah. Um, because I want to giggle and eat good food with her.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: It's that easy.

She, she was passionate about her food. Sh- just like with, "It's a cow. It's a [00:51:00] rainbow," she'd be like, "This is delicious," always, right? Yeah. Um, and she giggled, and she was funny, and she connected on a playful way, and I feel like that's, that's, that's what I [00:51:10] liked about- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... my experiences. You s- so

Michael: it's energy.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: It's vibes. It's,

Alison: you know- Yeah ... the hang ... just have fun with her. Yeah. Connect with her in a playful way. Yeah. That's all I wanna do. Yeah, I, I- You know?

Michael: I love that, and connecting via [00:51:20] play. Um, I went coffee. Um, and I, and I, I've got a specific scene in mind. Um, I'd like to have coffee in that [00:51:30] apartment that she was in for forever, and I, I'm not even...

Like, I don't want strong coffee. I want, uh, it's almost more like tea. I think, um- [00:51:40] I think that there's a real intellect there. I think that she's a really smart woman, and I would love to have a wide-ranging conversation [00:51:50] about, uh, I'd like to keep it actually at the... Um, I am interested in talking about, you know, sex, sexuality.

Sex with Dr. Ruth. Yeah, [00:52:00] sure. Um, I mean, I don't know. I guess it's kinda how I view therapy overall. Whether or not you say I have a problem, it's almost always beneficial.

Friend: Yeah.

Michael: You know? Yeah. Um, I think I [00:52:10] also... I, I, I feel like there is a way of thinking that cuts across every bit of [00:52:20] advice she ever gave, that there are fundamentals and guiding principles that maybe I know at this point, and maybe it is about, um, [00:52:30] self-acceptance as well as, uh, you know, like, m- being mindful of where pockets of shame may exist, [00:52:40] because we bring that.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: Um, uh, uh, but I, I, I think I, I wanna, like, kinda learn first principles- Yeah ... from her.

Alison: Well, you know, it, it, you [00:52:50] saying that cuts across. It w- the other quote I almost went with is, "Respect is non-negotiable." Um, and, and I really- Oh, Jesus,

Michael: that's good.

Alison: I know. I know. I mean, [00:53:00] it, she came at life that way. As, as someone who came from a group of people who were incredibly, um, mistreated, to put it mildly, right?

Yeah,

Michael: [00:53:10] right. A Holocaust survivor,

Alison: right. Um, th- that respect is non-negotiable to your fellow humans. And, and she felt that way about homosexuals during- Yeah ... the HIV-AIDS crisis. Right. And that you should, you should come at [00:53:20] this advice with respect, you know? That, that's just non-negotiable. People are... We're all human.

We all have these questions. I

Michael: never heard that before. That's really good. Isn't

Alison: that nice? Yeah. [00:53:30]

Michael: It's very hard to practice that. Yeah. We judge people a lot. I judge people a lot. I mean, I... And especially in the wrong mood. I have to be... And these things are [00:53:40] related to me. I have to be joyful in order to have a respect is non-negotiable world view.

Alison: Do you have to be playful? Do you have to be [00:53:50] connecting underneath?

Michael: Maybe. I mean, you know, I tend to... I, I'm- You can, I think you know this, can get [00:54:00] me in an uninhibited mood, but I gotta get myself there. I, I have walls. I have my own whatever. Um-

Alison: It's funny, I think of you as somebody who's [00:54:10] very open.

Michael: I think you bring out an openness in me.

Um, and I think I, I think I'm open when it comes to somebody's humanity, but playful is not [00:54:20] as easy for me. You just came back from this dance retreat. Dance is uncomfortable for me. You know, I used to have to get hammered to dance, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and now when- Yeah, I mean, I think most people feel that way

when, on [00:54:30] the occasions when we dance, I do love it. It does lower inhibitions, but there's definitely a, a moment of hesitation, self-consciousness, self-awareness that I'm up against, [00:54:40] and that has, um, a relationship with sexuality in a big way.

Alison: Dance imitates life. Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, a- and, and, I mean, so I think this idea of, [00:54:50] you know, respect is non-negotiable.

Alison: I, I, it makes me feel like she was a really good parent. Yeah. You know what I mean? Um-

Michael: You get that vibe from the kids in the- Yeah ... in the documentary.

Alison: They loved

Michael: [00:55:00] her. Grandkids are kids. They really come, like, they're bright and, like, they come across great. They

Alison: did. I really liked them. Yeah. A- and they clearly just have such, such high regard for her.

Michael: Sort of [00:55:10] the- Yeah ... the grandkids were there. Yeah, yeah. You know? Like, everybody in the family seemed to, like, ch- charmed in the same way we, the, all of us are. Yeah. Um, which I'd like to think [00:55:20] that's reality. Uh, all right, I think we've arrived. I'll, okay, I'm gonna make a executive decision. I had been calling this category The Case for the Upper Staircase.[00:55:30]

I think we just need to go back to Pitch at the Pearly Gates. I think that's what this category is all about. Not that the pearly gates are real or it, they're a stand-in for the [00:55:40] afterlife when we send somebody's soul into the universe, but I do think that we should use this category to pitch- Mm-hmm ... like, this is why this was a meaningful life, and this is why [00:55:50] there's value, and this is, you know, even desirability, um, in, in this life.

Not a hard case in a way. I mean, [00:56:00] I, I, if I were to mount the argument, Allison, I guess I'd start with, um- Courage.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: You, you know, I [00:56:10] mean, I, I feel like there is a willingness to put yourself out there, to be the one who breaks the [00:56:20] icy conversation and s- and breaks taboos and says, "No, we can and should talk about this because we all are [00:56:30] dealing with our own sexual identities on the inside.

And if we make these conversations public, um, then, then we [00:56:40] become significantly less self-judgment, like w- m- more self-compassionate."

Alison: Yeah. Um- No place for shame.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: And, uh- Yeah ... [00:56:50] I mean, that is something I want to contribute to the stream of life. I want, you know, I want everybody to feel validated and loved and not ashamed [00:57:00] and not hung up, um, for whatever reason they may be, whatever your, you know, interests or, or desires are.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: We happen to [00:57:10] be talking about sex, but that goes way beyond that.

Alison: Yes. Um- Way beyond that ...

Michael: what else, like what else is, like part of the pitch here if we're sort of mounting the argument for Saint [00:57:20] Peter?

Alison: I think she helped people accept themselves for who they are.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: Who they were, who they are. Um, and she did it in a way that was with [00:57:30] respect and with humor and was direct, you know?

Um, and that she came from so much personal [00:57:40] tragedy and hardship. Um, I mean, I, I've thought about her story so many times, the, the losing everything at 10 years old, everything you know, your whole [00:57:50] family, and then at 17 realizing she has no family, and just being shipped-

Michael: No ...

Alison: to a foreign land, right? Yeah. To [00:58:00] Palestine, and, and having to just make her own way.

She had nothing, you know? Um-

Michael: What about desirability, though?

Alison: Desirability? No, I mean, I learned so much. I mean, I [00:58:10] feel like-

Michael: What do you wanna take home, you know?

Alison: The, I mean, I, I think I said it in those five things. Like her, her, her joie de vivre, her fizziness, her, [00:58:20] her, you know, energy and her playfulness-

Michael: Yeah

Alison: and her continuing curiosity, um, that kept her going until 96. [00:58:30] You know, I, if, if that is what the latter half of my life could be, then I'm excited for it.

Michael: Are we on track? [00:58:40]

Alison: I hope so.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: But do you think we are?[00:58:50]

I mean, I just spent a week dancing on the edge of the world, trying to feel my own essence I, I- It's new for me. You know what I mean? It's tackling [00:59:00] something new.

Michael: I think you are. I think you are. I, I, I, I... I mean, I don't know. Um, [00:59:10] there's... I was thinking about, um, I was thinking about our long history, which is, you know-

Alison: 20, 26 years [00:59:20] together

Michael: yeah, that's a long time. I love that you're getting emotional in

Alison: here. I'm getting

Michael: emotional. In the early days of this show, Alma and I would talk a lot about, this is my favorite adage around [00:59:30] marriage, that love is not about gazing into each other's eyes. Love is about growing forward in the same direction, gazing forward in the same direction.

Um, so I do think that [00:59:40] these qualities of curiosity and joie de vivre and fizziness and playfulness and self-compassion [00:59:50] are, have always been in you and with you, and I see them evolving and growing and finding new expression, [01:00:00] you know, with our kids, in our sex life, um, in, yeah, right and- It's okay. [01:00:10] And then, and, and in, uh, and then in our, in, in, in you as an individual.

Like, your, your ability to spend time with [01:00:20] yourself, um, has, has, has grown to a new level. So I do see a lot of the qualities that you recognize and love and [01:00:30] admire in her, in you.

Alison: Oh, that's awesome. Thank you, love.

Michael: I love you too. Uh-

Alison: Well, look what you've done with this show. I mean, this is a [01:00:40] later in life project for you, right?

That you have so much passion for, and you're, you're looking at all these lives and saying, "What, what do I value?" And you're [01:00:50] curious. Um, I would definitely say that that is, that is us looking forward in the same direction.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're dancing, I'm [01:01:00] podcasting. Yeah. But, you know, there's some-

Alison: Looks different, but

Michael: yeah

but yeah. No, no, no, no. I, I, uh, I love that we have this. I love you. Thank you for coming on the show. I love you too. St. Peter, uh, [01:01:10] I am Dr. Ruth, and I, uh, made it okay for people to feel okay about their bodies and about sex as pleasure. I made it okay for us to [01:01:20] talk and to explore dysfunction and to figure out how to love each other more.

And ultimately, that is a mission a- a- around [01:01:30] self-love. Um, and that to me is what runs through the middle of the stream of life, and if I strengthened that stream and [01:01:40] made a contribution as an unlikely spokesperson for that message, I hope for that you will let me in.[01:01:50]

All right, plugs for past shows. Uh, Allison, if people enjoyed this episode, uh, Dr. Ruth on [01:02:00] Famous and Gravy, what do you think they might like from the back catalog?

Alison: Yes. So my original thought was Shirley Temple.

Michael: Oh, okay. Wow, deep in the archives.

Alison: So, um, [01:02:10] she... I really enjoyed Shirley Temple. Yeah. I enjoyed that show quite a bit.

Michael: That was... A lot of- a lot of people did. That one's had a lot of currency. It's a good episode. Yeah.

Alison: Yeah. And, and, you know, she [01:02:20] had a late in life change of career.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: She got very involved in politics- She was, she was a diplomat ... and activism. Yeah. A diplomat, and, um, and [01:02:30] really grew and changed from what she had been originally.

She had a hard childhood. Yeah. D- very different, hard childhood. Um, and so I just saw a lot of similarities. Um, [01:02:40] and then as luck would have it, uh, I was reading an article where they mentioned that her favorite, Dr. Ruth's favorite actress was Shirley Temple. I saw that. And I was like- I

Michael: saw that ... all right, there [01:02:50] we

Alison: go.

Michael: That was perfect. Ah. This is

Alison: her. Yeah.

Michael: Okay. So that is episode 14, Dimpled Ambassador, Shirley Temple. Uh, che- all right, I thought about [01:03:00] episode 20, Notorious Dissenter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Yes, of course. Um- Another short, Jewish lady ... there's a lot of similarities. Yes. Uh, but I decided to go with, 'cause I just think it's a [01:03:10] good episode and I'm really proud of it, the one we did on Betty Ford, Late Bloomer.

Oh. Um, I thought that, like, a- also surprising [01:03:20] spokesperson for an important issue, and hidden legacy from a period of time where some of these things get lost in the shuffle. So I wanted to bring about Betty Ford, [01:03:30] uh, Late Bloomer, episode 109. All right, here is a little preview for the next episode of Famous and Gravy.

This person died 2012, age 48. [01:03:40] She's responsible for the best-selling soundtrack of all time, a record that holds to this day.

Friend: Oh, Jesus.

Michael: Famous and Gravy listeners, we love hearing from you. If you [01:03:50] wanna reach out with a comment, a question, or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com.

In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels. [01:04:00] Famous and Gravy is created by Amit Kapoor and me, Michael Osborne. Thank you so much to the beautiful Allison Osborne for co-hosting on this episode. Uh, it was [01:04:10] produced by Jacob Weiss. Original music by Kevin Strang.

Thank you, and see you next [01:04:20] [01:04:30] time