140 Powerhouse Publisher (Katharine Graham)

Transcript of this episode:

Sara: [00:00:00] This is Famous and Gravy: Biographies from a Different Point of View. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. Now, here's [00:00:10] the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2001, age 84. In 1998, Nora Ephron reviewed her [00:00:20] best-selling memoir and said, quote, "The story of her journey from daughter to wife to widow to woman parallels to a surprising degree the history of women this century."

Friend: Is she a [00:00:30] celebrity or just-

Well, I'm gonna undershoot the runway, and I, I ... It sounds like a Susan B. Anthony type, and I know that's not true.

Michael: [00:00:40] Not, not Susan B. Anthony. Uh, I like that guess. All right. She was a carpooling socialite mother of four when, in 1963, her husband died, [00:00:50] and she became the effective steward of a multi-million dollar communications empire.

Friend: Well, Martha Stewart's still alive, so I know, I know it's not her. Um, but it sounds [00:01:00] very magazine empire-y.

Michael: Good guess. Not Martha Stewart. She, who as of this recording, is still with us. All right. Truman Capote gave her what could only be [00:01:10] called a coming out party, the Black and White Ball at the Plaza Hotel in New York.

Warren Buffett would become her financial mentor.

Friend: Hmm. So I was [00:01:20] thinking when you said Capote, I ca- came Harper Lee, but, but you already made an episode of Harper Lee.

Helen Gurley Brown. Would that be [00:01:30] a possibility?

Michael: Who's that? I don't know who Helen Gurley Brown is.

Friend: She o- she operated Cosmopolitan Magazine.

Michael: Oh, good guess. No, not Helen Gurley Brown. Okay. [00:01:40] With the help of the women's movement, and particularly through discussions with Gloria Steinem, she said she became more cognizant of the causes of her own insecurities and more aware of [00:01:50] the problems of working women. She played a single role in changing, uh, mores when it became widely known that one evening after dinner she had refused to join the [00:02:00] ladies upstairs when the men discussed world affairs over brandy and cigars.

Friend: Oh, you're killing me.

Michael: This is what I want. Good.

Friend: See, I'm a, I'm a [00:02:10] child of the '70s, so I want to say something like Bella Abzug, but I know-

Michael: Yeah, that's not it ... that's

Friend: not Bella Abzug.

Well, I, she must have been such a wonderful person to know.

Michael: In the [00:02:20] early 1970s, her newspaper, the Washington Post, relentlessly published front page articles by two little-known reporters, Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein.[00:02:30]

Friend: Man, I, I worked in newspapers. I ... This is an icon. It's Katharine Graham.

Could it be Katharine Graham?

Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Katharine Graham. Nice! [00:02:40] Oh, dude, yes!

Archival: The image of me is this, this tough sort of decisive, combative- [00:02:50] person who's taken on all these fights and I'd just like to say that I hate fights and I am very [00:03:00] courageous only when forced into a corner and all the battles we got in were ones in which you had very little choice[00:03:10]

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne

Sara: And I'm Sarah Murphy

Michael: And on this [00:03:20] show, we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what [00:03:30] does a celebrity's life story show us about ourselves?

Today, Katharine Graham, died 2001, age 84. Sarah Murphy, welcome back to [00:03:40] Famous and Great. Thank you. Always wonderful to have you here. Ah, okay, so I got a couple of questions I wanna ask before we get into Katharine Graham. So Sarah's joined us on a lot of episodes. [00:03:50] She's one of the more, uh, brilliant people in my life.

I wanna know, because I think a lot of smart friends I have, uh, at some point in their lives flirted [00:04:00] with the idea of being a journalist or being journalists. Yes. Did you ever flirt with this idea?

Sara: Yes. So-

Michael: You did?

Sara: I did. Okay. I wrote my college [00:04:10] essay on the fourth estate, so, 'cause that really was what I thought I'd wanted to do.

And, and- Oh, wow ... so I had done little newspaper columns for the Cleveland Daily Banner in Cleveland, Tennessee, and I... called [00:04:20] Teen Scene. With, with, and I- And then- Coincidentally enough. Yeah ... that's right, that's right, Teen Scene. And then I also did, um... And actually, if I look back at my life [00:04:30] and think of, like, one opportunity that was given to me that I really can't believe I did not seize upon, it was that there was a producer [00:04:40] at WRCB Channel 3 in Chattanooga who I did two spots for, 'cause they also had a kids show.

So I, like, dressed- Mm-hmm ... up like a paleontologist and went to the Creative [00:04:50] Discovery Museum and talked about dinosaurs. And then- Yeah ... I did, like, another, um, piece for them. And then she said, "If you write something and you wanna, like, produce it, [00:05:00] then I will do that with you." And I, but it, I just kind of got overwhelmed with it.

I can't even remember what else was going on. But that, I, I still look back at that and I was just like, "What was I thinking?"

Michael: [00:05:10] Yeah.

Sara: So yeah, I loved journalism, and I, uh, and I did absolutely, um, when I was applying to school, think that I might be a journalist. And then by the time I was [00:05:20] picking classes, I was already like, "I have to be a doctor or a lawyer or something."

You know, I was, like, already in that kind of head space. So.

Michael: Yeah.

Sara: Things were s- just [00:05:30] starting to pop up online. People were stopping, talking about, like- Mm-hmm ... what was gonna happen when things moved online. And then the cost was pretty high because you had to move to somewhere [00:05:40] that seemed like nowhere to, um, make nothing for a few years.

And- Yeah ... and that was really scary to me. And so-

Michael: Yeah ...

Sara: I think I got, um, [00:05:50] dissuaded, uh, which is why- Yeah ... I kinda wish that I had taken that one chance to see if I'd, if I'd gotten the bug. I think I, it might have happened.

Michael: It, it's an interesting, I [00:06:00] mean, uh, you know, Katharine Graham's not exactly a journalist, but obviously she's, you, you know, part of the institution of journalism.

It's an interesting category of fame in a way because it is somewhere [00:06:10] between the, um, y- you know, I do think you have to be inquisitive and smart and curious- Yeah ... to succeed in it. Um, so- People who have those [00:06:20] qualities sometimes become doctors, lawyers, and academics. But there's also a little bit of random chance that's not so different from Hollywood.

Mm-hmm. Of, you know, you [00:06:30] have to have had the right opportunity to work in the right place and be, you know, just lucky.

Archival: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. You know, to kind of, to kind of make it, uh, to make it work that way. [00:06:40] Okay, that, that's a good answer, and I, you know, have my own answer. At times I have worn a journalist hat. I don't now.

Mm-hmm. Um, but it's a similar sort of thing, where there's, there's [00:06:50] always been a temptation and a flirtation for me with wanting to be a journalist. I think it's, it's an interesting, if nothing else, like day-to-day job. Mm-hmm. You know? [00:07:00] Storytelling, but also sense making. Um, and trying to strive for whatever you think objectivity is.

Archival: Yeah.

Michael: Um, different question: When did Katharine [00:07:10] Graham first cross your radar? Like, when did you first become aware of her as a human being - Yeah ... on planet Earth?

Sara: It was pre, [00:07:20] like, watching the Watergate movie with Meryl Streep.

Michael: You mean the Pentagon Papers movie - Yeah.

Sara: Yeah ... as opposed to this- Sorry, the Pentagon Papers.

Yeah. The Post. I,

Michael: I, I hadn't seen that until researching this episode. [00:07:30] The 2016 Steven Spielberg movie with Tom Hanks and Meryl Streep. Awesome movie.

Sara: But I think, I think it was an individual project in high school where [00:07:40] I found out, where I kind of looked into Watergate, and then I had not realized at that time that the Post was led by a woman.

And so I think that, I think that's what kind of got my [00:07:50] attention.

Michael: Okay. Well, it was way later for me. Uh, a guest, a, a, pre- previous co-host, a friend of the show, Wylie Hodges, who was on the Betty Ford [00:08:00] episode, and Kurt Vonnegut. Um, you know, he and I were brainstorming names, and he put Katharine Graham, and I was like, "Who, who's that?"

No idea. Oh, okay. I had no idea. Yeah. This was, like, a year ago.[00:08:10]

Okay. If that. I mean, really, really, really late in the game, and I, holy cow, like I am so glad to [00:08:20] be doing this episode. Yeah. Because I, uh, uh, I have some hot takes about, about this person and this figure and what this all means in a way that [00:08:30] I did not know. So, uh, I, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm late to the game, but never too late.

Never. So I, I think let's just dive in. Okay.

Sara: Let's do

Michael: it. You ready? Mm-hmm. All right. Category one, [00:08:40] grading the first line of her obituary. Katharine Graham, who transformed The Washington Post from a mediocre newspaper into an [00:08:50] American institution and, in the process, transformed herself from a lonely widow into a publishing legend, died today in Boise, Idaho, where she [00:09:00] had been hospitalized since being injured in a fall over the weekend.

She was 84. Sarah, your, your initial reactions?

Sara: I'm gonna go [00:09:10] middle of the road here.

Michael: Oh, wow. Okay. Why? '

Sara: Cause I think that the idea that she was really there to transform the Washington Post was, [00:09:20] um, quite, was really what I wanted them to say. 'Cause I didn't want them to say just Watergate or the Pentagon Papers, but I, I think either of those would have been [00:09:30] worthy tags, especially more than the fall in Boise, Idaho.

Michael: Oh,

Sara: yeah.

Michael: Yeah. Old [00:09:40] people trip a lot. Does this need to be in the first... Yeah, no, it's- You know? Yeah ... I mean, this is- Yeah ... and I don't mean to make light of that-

Sara: No, no, exactly ... 'cause

Michael: she's a serious thing It's not. But, like, why is this in the first

Sara: line of her obit? Yeah. And we, we- Yeah, that's fair ... we've talked about- Yeah

[00:09:50] like, and it's not, like, a headline. That's not an it bleeds, it leads story, you know? So, um- Right. Right ... and, and maybe because she was so closely associated with suicide, they're trying to say that wasn't what happened. But I just [00:10:00] also think- Well, because

Michael: of her late

Sara: husband ... because of her late husband.

Yeah. Yeah. But I just also think, I don't know, I think I would've, I would've led with a little bit more of, um, how [00:10:10] she did those things. Um, and the reason- Yeah, okay ... and, and the reason I'm sticking with, uh, middle of the road is that I do like that they [00:10:20] focused on, um- The fact that she made this contribution to publishing, and that it was, um, it was [00:10:30] transformative for that institution, and it was transformative to have that type of institution in DC.

Michael: Okay. So interesting that you [00:10:40] say mediocre, middle of the road. I kind of get that. I initially started very high. I, because I do think that, um, all of this is [00:10:50] very true. The Washington Post was a mediocre newspaper, and it became an American institution. And for... here's the thing, I think you're, um, I, I think most people in our audience [00:11:00] know, but The Washington Post is the newspaper that had the reporters that reported on Watergate that took down Richard Nixon.

Yes. Right? Like, this newspaper was hugely [00:11:10] influential in that moment. Hopefully everybody knows that. Yeah. And, uh, to your point, you know, do you call that out in her obituary first line? Maybe, maybe not. [00:11:20] Preceding that, and this is what that movie with Meryl Streep was all about, was publishing the Pentagon Papers after The New York Times had done it, but, like, as a statement about free press, and it went to the Supreme Court.[00:11:30]

Yes. Like two huge, like, landmark moments in the, you know, mid-20th century. You know, in, in the Vietnam '70s era. Whatever. Okay. Um, I [00:11:40] think... So, so you know, when they talk about it being an American institution, that's what's in there. I also do like the fact that they say... I don't know, I k- [00:11:50] I kind of quibbled with lonely widow.

Friend: Yeah.

Michael: She's a widow. Is she definitely lonely? Kind of. I mean, she was alienated by the death of her husband. We'll get into that backstory- Mm-hmm ... in a [00:12:00] second. Calling her a lonely widow is a little bit... But, but I, I like, I do like the drama of that.

Archival: Yeah.

Michael: And then I, I'm kinda with you, like, I didn't need to know she tripped and fell on page 84.

[00:12:10] I mean, like, it was like... I guess I kinda d- I, I think your point is kind of interesting, in that maybe they said that because they, they wanted to make it clear this is not a death of despair [00:12:20] necessarily.

Sara: Yeah.

Michael: Um, ok- but here's, here's my... Okay, so I started at, like, an eight or a nine, and I went down because I started thinking about this, Sarah.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna, [00:12:30] uh, spring this on you.

Sara: Okay.

Michael: Who do you think is the most important and powerful woman in the 20th century? Like, give me your top list.

Sara: Oh my god.

Michael: [00:12:40] I, I can give you some names. Oh my god. I've got some candidates. Okay. Okay. Like, number one, stop and think about this for a second. Okay, here are some names that I came up with in my brainstorm.

Uh, [00:12:50] I think- Yeah ... you can talk about feminist figures. Betty Friedan, um, Gloria Steinem. Uh, I think you could also talk about Supreme Court justices, uh, Sandra Day O'Connor- Yeah ... and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. [00:13:00] Um, I would- Mm-hmm ... put Katharine Graham above all of those names, not because of the cause of feminism, but because w- of the way [00:13:10] newspapers and institutions shape, uh, the story of history and the story of society.

Yeah. Um, a- and, you know, uh, obviously it's never just one [00:13:20] person. I'm not much of a, you know, great man or great woman of history kind of, like, you know, way of thinking about things. But Supreme Court justices are working with, in equal footing with, with [00:13:30] eight others no matter what, right? Okay. Okay. So then I thought about heads of state.

Golda Meir, um, Margaret Thatcher, even Queen Elizabeth, who of course you guested on our Queen Elizabeth [00:13:40] episode. And I don't think... Like, I think if you're talking about important and powerful in the 20th century, h- in my mind, kind of has to be [00:13:50] American. I, I thi- I think it's, this is the American cent- that was, maybe still is, debatable, uh, American century, right?

So-

Sara: Yeah, your, your [00:14:00] birthday cynicism- ... is seeping in here.

Michael: Coincidentally, we're recording this- I'm not ... on my birthday. I'm not. But okay. So, so y- I mean, you could, you could- Yeah ... you know, [00:14:10] E- Eleanor Roosevelt? I don't know. Yeah, I mean, uh-

Sara: Yeah. I would, uh, yeah, I mean, um- I'll

Michael: give you... Uh, okay ...

Sara: Angela Merkel.

There are, I mean, there are lots of... I mean, there are- But

Michael: I would not [00:14:20] put them above, you know, any... I, I, I, I guess, I guess to my previous point, I, to me, the way journalism is both a check [00:14:30] on democracy and state power and a storytelling apparatus that shapes minds and worldviews, the only other figure [00:14:40] I came up with that met that criteria to my satisfaction was Oprah Winfrey.

Sara: Oh, from, like, a media empire perspective. Exactly.

Michael: Yeah.

Sara: I think, yeah.

Michael: But Oprah never [00:14:50] empowered reporters To investigate the president in a way that led to a resignation or, you know, even necessarily- Yeah ... like [00:15:00] went to the, maybe Oprah has some Supreme Court, you know, decisions. I don't know. Anyway, this is my point.

I think that there is a very reasonable case that Katharine Graham is [00:15:10] the number one woman in terms of power and influence in the 20th century. You can, you can debate this, right? Yeah. And we could spend the rest of this episode [00:15:20] debating it, but I think, do you, like do you see the merits of the argument?

Sara: No, I see where, I, I'm not, I am not willing to... Well, first of all, from a feminism perspective, and we'll get into this too, I, [00:15:30] I believe in distributing more crowns, not deciding who should have the biggest. But I - Yeah,

Michael: no, but this is, but this is a podcast where we are going for number one.

Sara: But, but yeah. But yeah.

You know? Yeah. No, I understand. [00:15:40]

Michael: I, I guess I-

Sara: I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna let you drag me into that li- I, um- And there's, I

Michael: mean, there's always, and we'll get into this too, the hand you're dealt and how you played it, right? And Katharine [00:15:50] Graham was dealt a very powerful hand. And so you, yes, you have to weigh- Yes

these things out. But my point is that y- when you're putting together the shortlist of women who [00:16:00] changed history, changed history- Yeah ... in the 20th century, I, she c- she is absolutely on the shortlist, if not at the top of it. And I think that this obituary [00:16:10] doesn't quite get at that. Transformed herself and an American institution, it hints in that direction, but I think you could go further.

Sara: Yeah, I think that's why I would've, I would've liked [00:16:20] reference to those specific moments in history- No ... 'cause I think there would be plenty of people reading this who would be like, "Katharine Graham and Watergate? Never heard of a Katharine Graham." She's

Michael: not in All the President's Men. She's not even [00:16:30] a figure.

She hasn't, she wasn't fictionalized until, uh, or, or- The Post ... until The Post, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Sara: Yeah. So I think that that, um, I, I hear your point on that. And [00:16:40] I, and I, I also say, ah, I... My reaction to her is just [00:16:50] having so much respect for the way she was making decisions and understanding how difficult it has been to continue to make those decisions [00:17:00] in a modern-

Michael: Yes

Sara: press. You know? So, like- High pressure- I think there was, like,

Michael: this- ... high stakes. Yes, I agree.

Sara: Yeah. And then a- and the reason that I want Watergate in the [00:17:10] lead is that, I mean, she even says this in an interview, I loved when she said, "If Watergate's such a great story, where is everybody else?"

Michael: Yeah. Yeah, no, the Washington Post was out [00:17:20] on a limb.

Yeah. You know? In terms of- Yeah, yeah ...

Sara: their reporting- And

Michael: so like they were- ... until, until it became... until, you know, there was congressional testimony. I mean, it was really late in the game before other- Yeah ... ad- other [00:17:30] media outlets got on board with the story.

Sara: Yeah. So I guess I, I think that, um, it's interesting 'cause I, I came in here prepared to talk about her place in feminism, which we may do- Yeah

throughout, and [00:17:40] certainly hope to at the end. But I just think, um, I hadn't really thought about it in those terms, and I, I don't... So, but I, I do think that you can make the argument. I appreciate you raising [00:17:50] the, the point, and maybe I'll land somewhere by the end of the conversation.

Michael: Uh, so all right. We quibbled a little bit with lonely widow.

I think let's save some of that for later. [00:18:00] Um, what's your score then? If you're mediocre, are you, where, where are you at?

Sara: I may get all the way to seven, but I was coming in around a six. I just, 'cause it was really just, it just kinda like, I was like, "Yes, yes, [00:18:10] yes." Yeah.

Michael: What? And, and, and I do like transformed herself, because one thing about that phrase is that she grows and [00:18:20] changes, and we get to see that, and she helps us understand that in her memoir.

Um, so she transformed the institution, and in the process transformed herself. I think that is, [00:18:30] you know... I, I think those are good words, and I think we use the word transform a lot. Yeah. In this case, it's, it's appropriate. I'm, I'm a seven. Um, I started off at an eight or a nine. Yeah. And then the more I [00:18:40] thought about it, I'm more like, actually this is, I think, understated.

I think she's, she's a more important figure who we ought to be teaching about and ought to be studying in ways that, you know, I don't think we are [00:18:50] yet and, and have. I mean, there's, there's some of that, but-

Sara: I just, I mean, I literally just wanna cut the cause of death, 'cause I'd be at an eight or nine.

Michael: Okay. Uh, let's get into category two, five things I love [00:19:00] about you. Here, Sarah and I will develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived. Um- Oh, God [00:19:10] almighty. There's a lot of places we could go. I, I-- Let me just say I really like this lady.

Friend: I do too. I do

Michael: too.

There's, there's like- Yeah ... she's a good hang, she's interesting, she's [00:19:20] smart. There's, like, a lot of places to go here. Mm-hmm. W- Should, should we, like, give the overview of this story? Yeah, do it. Do it. Okay, let me see if I can do- Yeah. Go ahead ... the rough bullet points of the story, just so people are, are up to date.

So she's born [00:19:30] into a lot of privilege. Her father bought the Post at a dirt cheap price in the early 20th century. Mm-hmm. He's, he's a man of service, too. He's successful. He's on Wall Street. But he [00:19:40] also, um, is, you know, uh, was in Hoover's cabinet or something, the chairman of the Fed or whatever. Of course f-

Sara: He was very active.

Very active ...

Michael: in the World Bank, too. And her mom is this, [00:19:50] like, sort of extravagant figure, really interesting lady who is worldly and, uh, and intellectual, but also a little disconnected.

Sara: Mm-hmm.

Michael: Um, so [00:20:00] her dad buys the Post, builds it up into a reasonable paper. Katharine marries a man named Phil Graham, um, who at first is from, uh, a poor background in [00:20:10] Florida, wants to be a Florida politician.

At first it's a really successful marriage. Phil goes off to war, comes back. He's reluctant at first, but then decides he does wanna be part of the Post, and he [00:20:20] becomes the heir apparent, right? Mm-hmm. And so Katharine and Phil are, you know, close to, to Dad, and, uh, it, and there's a succession plan. Then Dad dies.

[00:20:30] Then Phil Graham does lead The Post to some period of success, but then has a breakdown.

Archival: When, when your husband, um, died, uh, clearly this is the, the [00:20:40] turning point of your life. Um, as you've spoken of two separate lives, this is the moment when, when the life divides, in a sense, into- Yes ... two phases. Um, might you have done [00:20:50] something else?

Were you tempted not to go to the Post and, and take up?

Um, it never occurred to me not to. I mean, there were about three choices you could make. [00:21:00] One, you could, um, sell it. Two, you could get somebody else to go and manage it. And three, you could at least go and try to learn what, what was going on and what you could do [00:21:10] about it.

Sara: And then she takes the position. She's like, "Don't surprise me," like in the editorials, "Don't surprise me." But she gives them autonomy, you know? And so, like, I [00:21:20] like the way she leads, and I don't know where she would've had the training to know that that was the way to really do it.

Archival: Ms. Graham, did Ben Bradlee never give you a sleepless [00:21:30] night about his coverage of Watergate?

He gave well, the story the stories we were running [00:21:40] caused me grave concern and if I hadn't, I'd have had to be have rocks in my head. If we hadn't been right, we'd have been dead because all a [00:21:50] newspaper has is its credibility and our credibility was being attacked every day.

When the White House tape transcripts revealed that the president was promising the Post [00:22:00] damnable, damnable problems, what he had in mind was a challenge to Kay Graham's lucrative television stations licensed by the federal government.

Can you say [00:22:10] to me truthfully, Miss Graham, that you never

said to Ben Bradlee, "Ben, come on. We're having... It's beginning to cost us"?

[00:22:20] Heavens, no. I wouldn't say that, and I don't think it would move him a bit if I did.

Sara: I am impressed that a woman at that time was able to step in and to [00:22:30] do that in the way that she did it.

And I don't think that you get, I don't think she could have had the newsroom that would have produced the results it produced unless she had. You know, [00:22:40] like people have to feel supported. You know, like you-

Michael: Yeah, no, I, look, I hear, I, I hear several things in that because leadership is a con- complicated quality.

It's not [00:22:50] one thing. It's courage, it's judgment, it's intuition, and it, it may be luck even. I mean, I think it's a lot of things that, that she does embody. I [00:23:00] think that she, you know, makes the right decisions in the heat of the moment over and over, but what virtue do you point to exactly to say that's her leadership quality?

Even [00:23:10] though she's showing it, it's hard to explain it. I think that there's also, alongside that, it's learned, which I, I really love. I like the idea that leadership is [00:23:20] not necessarily something we're born with, with charisma and charm and, you know, gravitas, that it's something that can be acquired over the course of a lifetime.

And she [00:23:30] discovers it, and she discovers it through circumstances. And, and she even comes to eventually see it in herself, although she's demonstrating it before she has that self-awareness, which is kind of [00:23:40] interesting. All right. So let's just call that thing number one, you love her leadership, 'cause that's, that's a big one.

I love the way

Sara: she led.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, love the way she led. All right. I, you know, this one is a compliment. I'll call it a, [00:23:50] a, a point number two. I, her judgment, I, I, especially of people. I think that she, um... One thing I really liked about her memoir is the, [00:24:00] the way she's very comfortable drawing boundaries between, yes, I was friends with these people who I'm also reporting on.

She really seemed to know the lines of her job [00:24:10] and able to have friendships. Yeah. And the friendships that, and, or collaborations, I mean, they're really work relationships, that really stick out are one, Ben Bradley, who you already talked about, who was [00:24:20] not a figure I knew very well, um, but who was a fascinating figure.

And, you know, if you're played by Tom Hanks, then you gotta be good.

Archival: Any story about the Post must begin with Benjamin [00:24:30] Crowninshield Bradley, 52, its fast-talking, chain-smoking, cocky executive editor. It is Bradley who said go to those investigative stories in the early days when the [00:24:40] Post was all alone on Watergate, and the White House was denying it and the rest of the press corps ignoring it.

Michael: Uh, and then the other one is Warren Buffett. Like, that friendship is [00:24:50] fascinating. I know. Her- I love that friendship so much ... her and I had no idea- Yeah. I didn't either. I didn't either ... the role he had played in her life and in- Mm-mm ... supporting The Washington Post early [00:25:00] on in his career and, and his, like, empowering of her.

Um, but you see it over and over again, her relationships with presidents and ex-presidents, her relationships with [00:25:10] other people in government and other, um, uh, other people in, in business. I mean, it, it, I love her, I love her boundaries. I just love the, uh, [00:25:20] like, the way she, you know, can be in relationship, close relationship with people, and not...

uh, like, still have this sort of, you know, [00:25:30] priorities in the right place about what her job is and what she's here to do, the sense of purpose. Um, it's something I really admire, and it's something I want, you [00:25:40] know? I'm... I, I wouldn't say I'm bad at boundaries, but, like, I don't always know where the lines are in terms of, well, the, you know, my number one priority is this, but we can still [00:25:50] have, you know, friendship or collaboration alongside that.

I think that that can be dicey, and I think the more powerful you are, the more complicated that gets. So I a- admire the [00:26:00] hell out of her for that, and I think it, it complements- Yeah ... your, your leadership point. Um, all right, what do you got for number three? What would you put number three on five things?

Sara: We'll go back to this, [00:26:10] um, widow point. So the, um... I thought that it was interesting to hear her talk about her life. Um, and even in the quiz, you gave that [00:26:20] great Nora- Yeah ... Ephron quote. Yeah,

Michael: yeah, yeah. Yeah, the story of her journey from daughter to wife to widow to woman parallels a surprising degree of the history of women in this century.

Yeah. [00:26:30] Yeah.

Sara: Yeah.

Michael: Quick side note on that. I had to put this together a little bit. Nora Ephron was at Newsweek when Ben Bradlee was there and was married to Carl Bernstein, the, the [00:26:40] Watergate reporter. Like, Nora's a little closer to Katharine than I realized. This is not just some random figure commenting on her life.

Yeah.

Sara: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. There was this idea, like, [00:26:50] she was... y- you see her describing her choices, um, and I lo- I just love the way she talked about, like, her choices as [00:27:00] she saw them at the time.

Archival: What did you have to learn? What was your frame of mind other than the fact that this was a time for you, you were gonna have to lean on a lot of people?

Yep. [00:27:10] And you were holding for your kids to become of age.

Yes.

What was your feeling about being there at the time? Was it fearful? Was it a sense of what? [00:27:20]

It was really hard because I didn't know anything about being in business. I didn't know anything about management. I didn't know anything [00:27:30] about m- complicated editorial issues.

I didn't know how to use a secretary. Uh, I mean, I didn't know big things and [00:27:40] small things, and worse still, I couldn't tell them apart. And unfortunate- I, that was a learning curve in which I learned for 10 years. I learned about management at the [00:27:50] Post, and I went up to Newsweek and the stations, and I just kept trying to learn the issues from the men who were running things, and of course, they were all men.

And you realized you enjoyed it. [00:28:00]

Yes. Eventually, I got more and more into it and more and more interested, and I love learning. I've always loved learning. I still do.

You know, there's a great line in which you said was [00:28:10] almost like, if I can remember this, "I shut my eyes- And dived off

S- stepped off.

Stepped off.

And [00:28:20] with a little bit of luck

Landed on my feet ...

landed on your feet.

Sara: And we've alluded to this before, this is not a Horatio Alger story, right? So like she's not like coming [00:28:30] up, uh, from poverty and like building. Like she had a totally different set of cards than most people have, so I understand. But I also think that, [00:28:40] um, if you're gonna celebrate feminism, you're gonna celebrate the fact that women have choices, not just what they do with those choices.

Like the idea is that they have the [00:28:50] choices and they make them. And so I liked watching her make specific choices and it... 'Cause they felt like at all times they served her, you know? Like they- Y- y- yeah, you know [00:29:00]

Michael: what's interesting though is that she doesn't always own them. When she's asked about... 'Cause I, and there's several interviews I saw where she, you know, people [00:29:10] describe her as courageous, and she, especially with Watergate, says, "We were so far along, we didn't have any choice except to go forward.

It was the only way to pursue that story." She does sort of [00:29:20] say, 'cause there is this, um, you know, consequential apocryphal moment where-

Archival: I really th- was convinced by the editors and the reporters that they were right and that we really had [00:29:30] to go ahead. And so I really gulped, and I really was not what your heroic leader is.

I just said, "Oh, go ahead."[00:29:40]

I mean...

Sara: But so I see that as taking responsibility for her choices.

Michael: It's, uh, totally, but [00:29:50] what, what my point is she's reluctant to do so, which I think is interesting. I think that she's humble, i- is part of it, right? I think she does recognize, um, her... Well, I, [00:30:00] it, it, I don't wanna go too far with humility thing because I think that she grows into a place where she owns her decisions more and more.

But she also [00:30:10] seems to say circumstances led us to a place where, yes, I had to make the final decision on the Pentagon Papers. That's not as true with [00:30:20] Watergate and not as true with other things I decided to do, so.

Sara: But it wasn't, it wasn't logistics, it was like by principle she had to make the... Like the next [00:30:30] choice was clear because of how she operated in the world.

That's what I'm saying. It wasn't because like, "Oh, I have to do it because da, da, da, da, da." It was like, "If this is my position, like [00:30:40] if this is what I'm gonna do, then these are the things I'm gonna do." Like it's like high, it's impressive executive function. It

Michael: is just- No, no, no, 1,000%. Look, so- Yeah,

Sara: yeah ...

Michael: I think that there, the, I guess maybe [00:30:50] my point is that people who I understand to be courageous sometimes don't understand that about themselves 'cause they don't understand how they are- Oh, I see

already shaped by their principles [00:31:00] and values in a way where they don't see a decision, and I do. They don't see agency, and I do. Oh, I see. And, and I, I-

Archival: Okay,

Michael: yeah ... but I also think, and you know, this I guess gets [00:31:10] complicated, but I think as her life goes on she does come to understand more and more Her own agency, right?

And her own, he, she does come to own responsi- like, own her [00:31:20] decisions. Um, I, I-

Sara: Yeah. I think she gets more comfortable with the fame she earned from them. I think,

Michael: um- I think that's true too ...

Sara: there was actually a, a good interview that kind of illustrates your [00:31:30] point. So she was asked if her, um, late husband or father would have made the decision that she made on the Pentagon Papers, and she was like, "Well, sure they would," and then she kinda backed out, and she was like, "Oh, [00:31:40] actually, they may have made some kinda deal to do something else."

So, like, there were, like, y- you know, like, there were, um, there were moments where she could have played a different chip that [00:31:50] served a purpose that made her feel good about it.

Michael: Yeah.

Sara: I respect people who could have had an easier life and ended up making these types of, like, huge, significant [00:32:00] contributions, you know?

And so, like, she could have had a very different- Yeah,

Michael: she could have sold the paper- ... much easier existence ... as soon as her husband killed himself and, and said, "I'm, you know what? I'm just gonna fade into wealthy [00:32:10] obscurity and, you know," and, and that's it.

Sara: Uh, yeah, and she, yeah, she could have, like, produced Nora Ephron movies, and that would have also been great with me.

Michael: Absolutely. That, that, that, so this [00:32:20]

Sara: is the thing. Yeah, there was there was a whole nother way, um, for her life to go, and so I do see, I do see this as a service, so.

Michael: All right. Well, let me give you my thing [00:32:30] number four. I mean, it's, it's, again, kind of building on the same idea. Uh, I wrote counterpun- puncher, counterpuncher.

Uh, I think that, um, she says a few times, uh, "I [00:32:40] don't really love fights and confrontations, but I have discovered that when, uh, I have to, I can punch back." Um, and I, I [00:32:50] love that for a lot of reasons. I think, you know, I'm more or less a pacifist. I don't love fights and confrontations, but I also love discovering that I [00:33:00] can punch back if I have to punch back.

I think that there is a lot to be said for not throwing the first punch, but being able to throw the second, and that is, [00:33:10] um, it, you know, I think that's evident in, in her, her, throughout her life actually. Um, so maybe it's a smaller point, but I think that there's, like, I don't know, there's [00:33:20] something Zen about that, like, "Let's lead with peace, but if I must fight, I can."

You know? Uh, and it's a part of her leadership quality. So maybe a simple one, [00:33:30] but, uh, an important quality in her, I think. All right, do you have a fifth to round us off?

Sara: Uh, this is becoming a theme in how I evaluate how a life goes, I think, but [00:33:40] I will say the friendships and the range of them. So we referenced Nora.

We talked about Warren Buffett, who she, like, became a friend and student of. A-

Michael: and initially, he is perceived [00:33:50] by other power players within the Post as a threat. Like, "He's trying to buy us out. He's trying to control you." And she's like, "Well, let me get to know him," and then he earns her trust. She eventually invites [00:34:00] him onto the board and becomes, you know, a key mentor.

Yeah. And friend.

Sara: Yeah. And then, a- and then and you texted me, it was like, "What is it with you and these Truman Capote characters?" Yeah, right, '

Michael: cause you were [00:34:10] on the Harper Lee episode. And yeah- Yeah. ... why is Truman Capote showing up again on Famous and Gravy? Go ahead.

Sara: Yeah, yeah. A- and, and as with Harper Lee, I think the friendship served [00:34:20] Truman, but I think, um, yeah, but he, he identifies her as the honor- honoree for this giant black and white ball.

And, and, and what that, what that says to me is [00:34:30] that in that s- even in that social environment, she had to be so universally revered that that was, like, an appropriate [00:34:40] choice, you know? So she had to be, like... It was almost, like, glamorous enough, but I'd still like to give her a makeover.

Friend: Yeah. And,

Sara: like, funny [00:34:50] enough.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah. You know, like funny enough, but I'd still like to pick her table, you know? Like that kind of... And, and so it, it felt a little bit like Truman pulling the strings, but it also seemed, um... I don't know. It, I, it [00:35:00] seemed to me that she was able to draw people into her life, um, that became real friends, not just, like, work friends or, like, society friends.

Michael: Okay, [00:35:10] let's go ahead and recap. So number one, you said learning to lead. Yes. Uh, and you like the way she led. Yeah. Uh, number two, I said, uh, excellent judge of people, great [00:35:20] boundaries. Number three, um, agency, power. Like how her choices, you admire her choices. Um, number four, I said, uh, counter-puncher. [00:35:30] And number five, what are we just talking about?

Number five was...

Sara: Her friendships.

Michael: Her friendships. Her,

Sara: yeah. Yeah.

Michael: I love that that keeps coming up.

Sara: I know, I know.

Michael: Okay, let's take a break. [00:35:40] Category three, one love. In this category, we will each choose one word or phrase that characterizes Katharine Graham's loving relationships. First, we will review the [00:35:50] family life data.

Okay, so four kids, all with, uh, Philip Graham. Um, she married Philip in 1940. She was 22. He was two years older. They [00:36:00] stayed married for 22, 3... 23 years until his death in August of 1963, just a few months before Kennedy. Um, she was 46. He was 48. She never remarried, [00:36:10] uh, lived another 38 years as a widow until her own death, uh, at age 84.

Uh, four kids, um, the, and they were all [00:36:20] with Philip. Okay. Uh, I've sort of been saving something a little bit here. Okay. Um, I don't love the phrase necessarily, but I hope when I unpack it, it'll have [00:36:30] something more. I wrote press, press onward, um, which is, you know, press, she's in the press. Uh, what I really got [00:36:40] to thinking about was she talks about, I mean, in some ways she talks about her life having two chapters, the first, you [00:36:50] know, uh, 46 years of her life where it's a sort of elite traditional housewife.

Um, uh, you know, however you wanna interpret that term, and [00:37:00] then the second half being this unlikely leader. Um, but she also talks about loving the paper and- Mm-hmm ... loving it as a kind of marriage, [00:37:10] and I think that one thing that's sort of interesting to me here, it reminded me a little bit of Maya Angelou.

I don't know w- w- you know, Amit made the, this point in that episode [00:37:20] that Maya was mute and then becomes this, like, person who was known for eloquence. Mm-hmm. And I think that there is a way in which a certain kind of, I don't wanna call it, [00:37:30] like- weakness necessarily, but it's a certain sort of, um, quality in one place winds up expressing itself i- [00:37:40] in, in a different place as a virtue and as a strength.

Yeah. So I do think that there is, even as her marriage is falling apart with Philip, uh, a [00:37:50] faithfulness, and to some extent, uh, a subordination, right? Yeah. And she still sees herself as, um, you know, uh, I, I don't know what language she would [00:38:00] use, but subordinate to, to him. And she, she talks about coming to understand that this man builds her up in some ways, and also was taking her [00:38:10] down without her realizing it, that she was the butt of jokes.

Archival: He too was undermining my self-confidence. If I went on too long about a story, he'd sort of look at [00:38:20] me, and somebody said to me at l- very, very late, "Don't you realize that you're the butt of all the family jokes?" Well, I didn't [00:38:30] realize it, because I thought they were funny and I laughed along with everybody else.

But there was just this subtle thing.

Did you feel at that time, not now, when you look back, then, [00:38:40] that it was eroding your sense of confidence

I didn't, I wasn't aware of it, Charlie, honestly Yeah

Michael: I think that there is a [00:38:50] commitment to institution throughout her life. And first it's the institution of marriage, and then it's the institution of journalism.

I think that she is somebody who was [00:39:00] never actually operating from ego, and I think that she was, um, in some ways in her marriage, her lack of [00:39:10] self-centeredness cost her, and then it paid off enormously when it came to the paper. Because I think she put the greater idea ahead of [00:39:20] herself in both chapters of her life, and it's kinda coming from a similar place.

It's got similar roots of selflessness. Um- Yeah ... and [00:39:30] so when I say press forward, there is a, a kind of, um, like she's, she's almost throughout her own life, or throughout her, her [00:39:40] entire life, put- putting something other than herself in front. Yeah, right? And, and, and, uh, it, it... Did, did, does that make sense what I'm trying to get at in terms of [00:39:50] this idea?

No, it

Sara: does. It does. I

Michael: think, yeah I mean, I, I think, I think the, like, attitude she brought to her marriage is not that different actually from the attitude she brought to her role as publisher.

Sara: Yeah. [00:40:00] I think that i- it's interesting to me, because I th- I was more interested in what was pushing her forward.

So, [00:40:10] um, and I

Michael: think when- Like why

Sara: she loved

Michael: the paper, or what

Sara: it, she was all about? Well, yeah, 'cause I, I think it was, I think it was all, I think it was all very much wrapped up in her relationship with her dad. If you [00:40:20] think about, like, the-

Michael: Very much, yeah

Sara: Yeah. And so, 'cause I think that that was... When she talks about her relationship with her father, and, like, the, she specifically, [00:40:30] like the nature...

He talked to her about the paper.

Michael: I mean, and, and that's the thing. We didn't really do justice to this part of the story earlier on. When it is, you know, when she is [00:40:40] making the decision about the Pentagon Papers, what is on the line is the future of the company. Not just will she go to jail, but they're going public- Yeah

at that moment. Yeah And there was, like, an opportunity for the [00:40:50] investors to pull out of the deal. So she is, like, risking everything. That moment is so incredible. Um-

Sara: Yeah. It is, it is a big deal. Yeah And I, and, and maybe that's wh- maybe that's why it's so [00:41:00] interesting is because, like- You could have a thousand perspectives on how journalism got to where it was, and you could, one of them could be that the Post maybe shouldn't have gone public.

You know, like, uh, [00:41:10] but Yeah Or you could say that, like, if it could have never gone public unless it did this. But th- that's part of why the principle is so interesting, is that, like, she was making the decision that was right for [00:41:20] journalism, and then knowing that it might cost her the company. But, like, if the company was gonna move forward, this is what she wanted the company to be, right?

Yeah. And I see, and so I see [00:41:30] that

Michael: even in the- I, in a, in a, in the same way that I think that she was supporting her husband. I guess this is kinda my point, is that you-

Sara: But then sh- that was why, that's what's amazing to me, [00:41:40] is that somehow in all of that, when the moment, uh, even though those were the expectations that were percolating, she's like, "Okay, well, when I'm a wife, I'm gonna do it this way, 'cause this is [00:41:50] what I think serves the kids better.

This is what I think serves, like, my husband's success, and thereby our success," in the circumstances that she was in And then, [00:42:00] um, when the paper comes up, she's like, "Okay, I'll keep this running for my sons initially," and then she's like, "Oh, wait, I'm actually really good at this."

Michael: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sara: You know? You know, and then [00:42:10] turns out I don't actually need to get remarried either, you know? So, like, I'm gonna be this person who sits in this space. And so, and then when she looks back at her life, I think [00:42:20] she's asking the question, like, what pressed me forward? And so I think the love of her life, like, or the most consequential person in her life was her dad.

[00:42:30] Yeah. And so-

Archival: Yeah ...

Sara: and so when I say, when I say one love, it was like, I think it's, like, thanks, Dad. You know? Yeah. Like, I think- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah ... I think

Michael: that's really- Yeah, yeah ...

Sara: like, where that was. And I-

Michael: I, I [00:42:40] love this, Sarah ... and, you know, yeah, I think- I, I had the same reaction. I mean, I think that e- this is, I...

A few years ago I saw somebody on Instagram or social saying, um, [00:42:50] "Dads need to tell their daughters every night, 'You're gonna grow up to do amazing things,' because if you do that every night, they'll believe it." And that's something I try and do with both my children, but I [00:43:00] do think about it with my daughter because I, I, I think fathers need to believe in their daughters, um, for them to discover their own power, and I think that's part of the, where [00:43:10] we're at in ter- in, in, in gender history.

And, and you see her dad accidentally doing that in a way. I don't think it was

Sara: accidental. I really don't think it was

Michael: accidental. Well, I mean, it's not- Yeah, and I- ... accidental, but it's not, [00:43:20] let's not overstate how, um, progressive it is. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I think that- It is, yeah ... you know, her dad still ultimately has, you know, traditional [00:43:30] gender norms in his head, even though he is inadvertently, and to some extent, not, not totally inadvertently, but even though he is empowering his daughter.

Sara: Yeah. And I think, I mean, [00:43:40] I... Let's put this in context, 'cause I, this is important for me that you include. Like, I'm a single mom by choice, so I have decided, I was raised in a very traditional [00:43:50] family where, like, my d- my dad was a pediatrician, my mom was a pediatric nurse. She, um, worked until I was born. She worked while my brothers were younger, [00:44:00] full, like, full-time when my brothers were younger.

And when I was born she went part-time as, like, an office manager for him. And so I had this very traditional upbringing, and one of the biggest [00:44:10] obstacles I had to overcome in making the decision was I couldn't imagine my life without my dad, you know? So, like, how did- Yeah ... how would I, how would I do this if I had- What does this look

Michael: like?

Yeah.

Sara: Yeah, yeah. [00:44:20] And so I think that part of it was actually looking, kind of in the way Catherine was looking at her life, it wasn't that he was a man, and it wasn't that he, it wasn't [00:44:30] that he was, it, it wasn't, he was the parent who saw her, you know? And, like, shared his interests with her, and, like, talked to her about- [00:44:40] all of the things, you know?

So like- Engage her,

Friend: yeah.

Sara: Yeah, yeah. Totally. I mean- And like, and, and try, and like tried to make sure that he was present and that she looked back [00:44:50] and saw that he was instilling confidence in her the whole time.

Archival: I think this thing that surprised me the most was the role my father played in my growing up.

[00:45:00] He was very shy and reticent and not very articulate. So I didn't realize until I reread his letters and mine to him how loving and supportive and [00:45:10] important he was to my life. I think that's the biggest discovery I made, and I really, really was moved by this.

Michael: I want to make one other point that's sort of to the [00:45:20] side, but I think it's important.

I also really admire Katharine Graham's ability to separate her husband's mental health disease [00:45:30] from the man. She does a- Oh, yeah ... really good job- Yeah, yeah ... through, like whenever she talks about him, of really pointing to his talents and virtues and not being bitter [00:45:40] about, you know, his, his breakdown and what happened with affairs and his suicide and so forth.

Um, it, it, it is ahead of [00:45:50] its time in a way that I don't even think she quite recognized how diligent she is in terms of, like one of the reasons she said she wanted to write the book is because [00:46:00] he was, and she still considers him to be, a great man even, even though, you know, his disease, um-

Sara: Yeah ...

Michael: took him down.

Even

Sara: though, yeah, and even though there, he was [00:46:10] in many ways not a great husband at, you know, like by some metrics. And that, I think

Michael: she's- And, and part of it's society and culture, and some of it is, you know, uh, he, obviously [00:46:20] his disease becomes important as time goes on.

Archival: He was like a firecracker, you know?

It was so- Someone

said he was the fizz.

Yes, I did.

You did. [00:46:30]

That someone was me.

It was you. He li- he was the guy. He had the wit. He had the, the sense of-

He was incredible ...

carrying the conversation.

He, he was really [00:46:40] brilliant and funny. Marvelous combination.

Then you began to, to know there was a problem, a health problem.

I thought it was a nervous breakdown. I didn't see it as [00:46:50] something cyclical.

Yeah.

And nobody explained to me ever, until the very end, that manic depression was, was the problem.

And now we, [00:47:00] you and I both know a lot of people that are manic depressive and take lithium and other drugs- And live- ...

and

function well

function well. But lithium had not been, at least it [00:47:10] wasn't in, uh, used. It probably was being experimented with. But now there's not only lithium, there's other care, and there are other drugs, and there's [00:47:20] psychiatry

Michael: I think we need to move on. Category four, net worth. Uh, in this category, we guess the net worth.

Uh, results are based on the website [00:47:30] celebritynetworth.com. We will write down our numbers ahead of time before we reveal. Finally, we'll place Katherine Graham on the Famous and Gravy net worth leaderboard. Okay, we've talked a lot [00:47:40] about, um... Actually, we have talked a lot about the privilege she came from.

We haven't probably quite talked enough about How successful she [00:47:50] was in terms of growing the Washington Post as a successful company. Yeah. At one point, the shares were at $6. By the time she's writing her memoir, it's around [00:48:00] $300. Once upon a time in America, newspapers were profitable- ... if you were smart about what you did with them, and she was incredibly smart and got a lot of help.

[00:48:10] So, um, she started off from a good place and went to an even better place. I have my number. Um, and, and, you know, she really passed away before [00:48:20] newspapers, you know, took a major hit because of online news and- Yeah ... then Jeff Bezos and Washington Post. We don't need to get into it all.

Sara: Yeah, yeah.

Michael: Yeah. Um, so I, I, I had a [00:48:30] high number, but I, I, my, mine is more, like, what I want it to be than what it probably is.

Sara: Um- See, that's the... I had a hard time with this too because I don't remember her being on the big B-lists. [00:48:40]

Michael: I, that's, yeah, right? You know? Yeah. And so I saw sort of the big B-list. Um- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... but, but, uh, who knows. Okay, let's go ahead and reveal. Um, so Sarah w- Murphy wrote down 850 [00:48:50] million.

Sara: Yeah. All right.

And Michael wrote down 90 million.

Michael: Uh, Katharine Graham's net worth according to, uh... [00:49:00] Oh, wow. Um, at the time of her death, the Washington Post publisher, Katharine Graham, had an estimated net worth of approximately 1.1 billion. Yay. She [00:49:10] crosses... She did make it. Okay,

Sara: good. Good, good, good. Yeah. I was, that was the only thing is I don't remember her being described as a

billionaire. It's the

Michael: right number. Goddammit. Katharine Graham. What's... I'm off by another order of [00:49:20] magnitude? God, I suck at this category. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I cannot get this right. I cannot get this right. All right. 1.1 billion. You know what? Okay. Uh, she is at the number three [00:49:30] position. Number one is Steve Jobs at 10.2 billion.

Number two is Ross Perot. Number three is Katharine Graham, just ahead of Jimmy Buffett. Um- There we go. There we go. [00:49:40] Yeah. Okay. Uh, so, uh, all by herself at this dinner table. Yeah. But well done- Yes ... Katharine Graham. She tres, tres comas. Nicely done. All right. Uh, Katharine [00:49:50] Graham crosses the one billion mark.

That is amazing. All right. Uh, let's do, ooh, next category. This is our most complicated category. It's called Malkovich Malkovich or Tiny Trophy. In [00:50:00] this category, we either choose a trophy, an award, a cameo, an impersonation, or some other form of a hat tip that, uh, shows a different side of this person, or you can do what's [00:50:10] called a Malkovich Malkovich moment, where you choose a moment where you parachute in.

It's named after the movie Being John Malkovich, where you can take a little portal into somebody's mind and have a [00:50:20] front row seat to their experiences. Uh, what did you have here?

Sara: I wanna know the first person she told after she made the decision on Watergate [00:50:30] to... I don't remember her talking about that.

Like, what happened right after. Do you

Michael: remember? On Watergate or Pentagon Papers?

Sara: Uh, the Watergate.

Michael: Oh.

Sara: Like, I wanna know when she's like pull, like [00:50:40] when she's pulling these triggers, like where does she go? You know, like where, like where, where does that go? I,

Michael: you know- And so like [00:50:50] I know- ... I, I, I, I know what you mean.

I definitely... I guess this is sort of to my previous point about boundaries. I think the, there's a lot she [00:51:00] shares in the memoir, but she also, you know, she talks about letting her kids read it and change it before she- Yeah ... pushes, puts it out. I think she's got a [00:51:10] private life that we know nothing about, including childhood friends.

I am. That's my suspicion. Yeah. I think that there are probably people in the inner circle who she does share this kind of stuff with, 'cause I don't [00:51:20] think she's... I mean, this is what's really wrong with the first line of the obit. I don't think she's lonely. She never- Yeah ... comes across as lonely to me.

Archival: No,

Michael: no.

Um, I mean to, to have a husband take [00:51:30] your, his life, yes, that's gonna be isolating and scary, and you're gonna feel loneliness. But I don't-

Sara: Yeah ...

Michael: I would never describe her as a lonely woman.

Sara: And maybe [00:51:40] that's it, is like I don't, I... It's not clear to me. There were, there was an interview I watched where she kept referring to her sister who was there and her sister who was not.

So, like I think [00:51:50] there-

Michael: Yeah ...

Sara: there was like a sibling relationship that was, um Like she expected them to be there in a way that, that they were like, you know, like they were a, a [00:52:00] public facing family

Michael: One person we haven't talked of who was not, I don't necessarily say inner circle, but influential, is Gloria Steinem.

Yeah. Uh, I, I mean, and, and it, we probably should have brought [00:52:10] her up way earlier on. As she comes to understand herself as a feminist figure, it's partly because Gloria Steinem is pointing out truths- Yeah ... in her life about her.

Archival: [00:52:20] Yeah, yeah.

Michael: Um, and you know, you- you, your five n- thing number five around friends.

But I don't think it was her. Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question. It's a good question. Yeah. Uh, she talks in the memoir [00:52:30] about watching All the President's Men. Um, that, that was actually my Malkovich moment. So she talks about, like, Robert Redford was, uh, obviously starred in it, Robert [00:52:40] Redford, Dustin Hoffman.

Also, uh, William Goldman, who we did an episode on, wrote the screenplay, got an Oscar for it. Um, th- he talks about, r- she talks about Robert [00:52:50] Redford, um, you know, a- a- approaching her and saying, "We're gonna do this movie." And, and sh- it, it sounds like not a warm, fuzzy [00:53:00] conversation, and she, because she's super skeptical that they can do the story justice.

She's like, "I just don't see how it's gonna work." But when she tells the story about watching the movie in her [00:53:10] memoir, she's like, "I thought it was great. I loved it. I thought they did... I was really impressed with the film. I thought they did a fantastic job," even though she's not portrayed as a figure.

She's [00:53:20] made reference to at one point, but there is no actress who plays her in All the President's Men. And for people who don't know, that movie's all about Woodward and Bernstein investigating Watergate and [00:53:30] eventually, you know, N- Nixon resigns. So I just think that watching any movie that relates to things that you decided in your life would just be [00:53:40] interesting.

It'd be weird to see the distortion of it, you know? No matter what, they get things wrong. Yeah. But the fact that she actually likes All the President's Men, you know, that makes me like [00:53:50] the movie more. Um-

Sara: But I am very glad that she got her Meryl Streep moment. She is definitely a woman who deserved to be, like-

Michael: Port- portrayed by

Sara: Meryl Streep

p- portrayed by Meryl

Michael: Streep. Yeah. It's one of my life goals. Yeah. I mean, one of these days, I... She just, she's just the[00:54:00]

Friend: best.

Michael: All right. Let's take another break[00:54:10]

Category six: Words to live by. Uh, in this category we choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said [00:54:20] about them. What'd you have here? Lots to go on.

Sara: So this is when she, by virtue of the fact at, um, the time she was operating in [00:54:30] DC circles, the Dinner parties would still, like, break off in Downton Abbey style, and the men would retire, uh, to, like, smoke [00:54:40] cigars and drink brown liquor, and the women would go to a separate room and speak.

And she, uh, spoke with a host and said, "I just don't think that I'm [00:54:50] going to continue to do this," and, um, and he was like, "Well, that means that you're leaving. We don't want you to do that." And so by virtue of this decision, um, [00:55:00] she basically integrated

Michael: the- Yeah ... Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Sara: yeah. I think- Like, as, like, elite- Broke up the sex segregation- Yeah

of

Michael: the Hollywood

Sara: elite- Uh, well, the- ... at the dinner party ritual ... yeah, [00:55:10] the DC elite anyway. Yeah. So, yeah, so. I mean, I'm sorry,

Michael: DC elite,

Sara: not Hollywood. Yeah. I, I think that that is another way that she kind of stood in her power and was just like, said, like, "This is really not worth my [00:55:20] time," is a w- uh, is a nice way to say, "Don't put us in a different room and tell us what we're supposed to talk about.

Like, we're gonna talk about the affairs of the day as well, and, [00:55:30] um, I might..."

Michael: And this is- Yeah ... where I need to be.

Sara: Yeah. And, and, yeah. Yeah, exactly, yeah. I love it. So I, I th- I love that she, uh, stood in that and that it, um... said, [00:55:40] "This is not worth my time."

Michael: I need to use that phrase more often. Uh, and, and there's a nice way of saying it, but this is not worth my time.

Sara: Yeah.

Michael: Um, I... Okay, so I watched [00:55:50] a documentary on her, a, a PBS documentary, that I thought was really good. I don't know the conte- I forget the context of this exact quote, but she said, uh, at some point, they [00:56:00] were asking about her parents and their influence on her, and she said, "I think there should be a statute of limitations for how long you can blame your parents for [00:56:10] everything."

Mm. Uh, I learned that when I became a parent. I think that is really... I, I... When my first child was born, I remember calling my mom [00:56:20] and saying, "I don't think I ever properly thanked you- Mm ... for, um, for, for bringing me into this world." And, uh, I think that there is... [00:56:30] Like, there should be a point in every adult's life where you look back and say, "I am gonna stop blaming my parents for everything."

At some point there is a- Yeah ... statute of [00:56:40] limitations. And I don't think you have to become a parent to have that, uh, uh, understanding, but I, I think that there's... I think those are words to live by. I think at some point you should stop and ask [00:56:50] yourself, "Have I forgiven my parents best I can, whatever their flaws were, whatever their strengths were?"

Um, because until you cross that moment, I don't know that you're ready for the [00:57:00] rest of life. I, I, I think that's, that's, like, a key thing that should happen for every human.

Sara: I mean, forgiveness is what you're hoping for, right? That you can, like, let it go, [00:57:10] but-

Michael: Yeah ...

Sara: there... even if you can't get to forgiveness, and there are some things I, I, I don't have anything in my past with my parents that I would describe as unforgivable- [00:57:20] No, but there's, there's unforgivable acts

but I can imagine it exists. Yeah. Yeah, but I think there is the even so issue, right? Like, even so. Like, e- no matter how dark this was, if I'm going to have a [00:57:30] future- You have to take... There has to be some agency in what am I going to do to shape my future even so?

Michael: I think the [00:57:40] word that really clicked with me in this, and I hadn't thought about it until you were talking just now, is blame.

Like- Yeah ... I, I, I, I think I do need to understand my parents, their [00:57:50] motivations, their... A- and I think everybody does need to understand their parents to understand themselves, to explain. But blame is about resentment, and blame [00:58:00] is about hanging on to, you know, w- where w- whatever they did, uh, in a way that I think you gotta surrender that at some point.[00:58:10]

Archival: She said I was a dutiful but hardly a loving mother. And it, I mean, she admitted this. She would j- she thought that it was her duty [00:58:20] to have us well brought up, the right nurses and governesses, the right schools, the right camps, the right trips. She'd take us on trips to Europe or camping trips. Uh, [00:58:30] but she didn't have to be there, and nor did she have to particularly have a physical affection for us, or she, she, she liked us, but she di- she [00:58:40] was regarded it as her duty.

Michael: Let's move on. Category seven, man in the mirror. In this category, we ask a fairly simple question. Did this person like their reflection, yes or no? This is not a [00:58:50] question about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment. I thought this was a fun one to look at because, you know, we are averaging over the [00:59:00] course of a life, and if you had taken the first half, I would have said probably not, and the second half, I'd say yes, this woman grows into it.

Yeah. So I, I came into [00:59:10] it with a yes, but this is only because we are trying to put a binary on it and average over the course of a life. Yeah. You know, does she like her reflection, yes or no? [00:59:20] I think she came to have a lot of gratitude and, uh, certainly more and more self-understanding. It's one of the things I love about her- Mm-hmm

is how she does come to see herself [00:59:30] and what she went through in a sort of like reflective, retrospective way as like, "Holy cow, what a journey." You know?

Sara: Yeah. No, I think, I [00:59:40] think that she, um... Because she could respect people, and I think she had a lot of reason to respect herself, so yeah. I, and

Michael: I think respect history, too.

I mean, I really do [00:59:50] think that, again, we haven't talked much about Gloria Steinem, but I think that she does... I, in the Fresh Air interview, she talks about how, like, "I was slow to understand the key [01:00:00] arguments of women's liberation until the lawsuits came." Um- Yeah ... but, like... And there's a great quote when those lawsuits show up.

She, like, asks, uh, [01:00:10] Fritz or whoever it is in, in her circle, "Whose side am I on here?" Uh- Mm, mm ... she doesn't know exact- I actually thought about this as words to live by because, you know, there's a lawsuit being brought [01:00:20] against her company about- Yeah ... you know, um, uh, gender equal pay and that kind of thing.

Um, and, and she's in a state of real conflict around it. Yeah. And, and, [01:00:30] but I think that she does find her way to the right thing, uh, e- eventually. Mm. Um, so yes. I mean, anyway, I see this as a confident [01:00:40] woman ultimately, you know? Um-

Sara: Yeah. And, and I think you're right. I, I don't know if at every point I would have said that, but I, I do think, yeah, at the end of her life, I, I have to think it.

Well, it's the

Michael: journey. I mean, that's part of the reason [01:00:50] we're talking about her is I love the journey. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, which we'll get to, uh, momentarily. One more category. Category eight, cocktail, coffee, or cannabis. This is where we ask [01:01:00] which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity? I had fun with this category.

Oh. But I wanna hear where you went first.

Sara: I wanna be in that men's parlor at the next dinner [01:01:10] party where everybody's like Fellas, no, I mean... Yeah, I wanna be in... Where, and

'cause I feel like she leans into that, you know? Like, I don't know if, um, I, I wouldn't go with a [01:01:20] gimlet there. I'd go straight- Girl ... to, like, a, um, old-fashioned or something and be like, "Uh, let's just see," you know, like, and, and, like, grab a friend and pick the biggest leather couch and, you know, just [01:01:30] like, "Let's just do this," so.

Michael: I love slightly intoxicated intellectual conversations. And I, I, I had the same thing, cognac, uh, at an after-dinner party- [01:01:40] Okay, okay ... um, talking about the state of the world. I did take a little bit of liberty with this category. We haven't talked about it much. I don't wanna make this too political, but I'd be [01:01:50] very interested to have a conversation with this woman about the state of journalism today.

Uh, yeah. The ability for media institutions to, uh, interrogate [01:02:00] corruption and- Yeah ... to, uh, you know, what, what is the role of the fourth estate, you know? Yeah. I mean, to your, to your college essay. Yeah. I, you know, think that y- you know, we are going to [01:02:10] study The Washington Post, its investigation of Watergate.

We are, it's already in the history books. Yeah. And it will be for forevermore i- as we understand [01:02:20] America going forward and the role of journalism. And I think that in some ways this is, you know, a, a, I don't wanna say high-water mark, but I do think that there is a, [01:02:30] um, a demonstration of power outside of government through media in- Yeah

the, you know, that, that, that is, is, is maybe [01:02:40] the most important representation of that idea in- Mm-hmm ... you know, a liberal demar- democracy. It's a real question. Y- you know, will media ever [01:02:50] have that kind of power again? And is it- Yeah ... being reorganized, and is it fragmented now? Is it lost forever? Who knows?

I would love to have a cognac with Katharine Graham [01:03:00] and talk about that, right? Like, like, how, how, how do you understand the fourth estate and the responsibilities and where, um, where certain lines do [01:03:10] and do not get drawn? It's sort of a coincidence that, that newspapers were both- powerful and profitable- Mm-hmm

in this moment in [01:03:20] history. And I think the coincidence of those things partly explains, you know, how elected leaders were held accountable. And I think that- Yeah ... that [01:03:30] the fact that it's not profitable is not beside the point with how we- No ... do and do not hold elected officials accountable [01:03:40] for corruption anymore.

So it'd be a good conversation with her about that. Yeah.

Sara: Yeah.

Michael: All right. I think we've arrived. The final category. Uh, we're [01:03:50] calling this the Case for the Upward Staircase. Um, basically, we want to look at this life and say, where was their contribution, and legacy, [01:04:00] and desirability, and maybe even, um, transcendence, uh in a, in a way that was not previously recognized.

Um, [01:04:10] you know, I think that I, I made the case at the top of the conversation that I think she's one of the most important and powerful people... I'm sorry. [01:04:20] Well, people. Mm-hmm. But maybe the most important and powerful woman of the 20th century on planet Earth. Mm. I think that that's a, um... But that's not what this category is [01:04:30] about really.

It's not about power. I think it's more about maybe service, and self-discovery, and, uh, contribution. So, you [01:04:40] know, I, I see that throughout, but how would you add meat to this argument?

Sara: Why I love the way she led, and why I admired [01:04:50] how she took accountability for her own decisions and agency, was this idea that her life could have been so much easier.

Michael: Yeah. [01:05:00] Yeah.

Sara: She didn't need, you know, $1.1 billion. She didn't need, uh... There was a lot that she did not have to do. And honestly, [01:05:10] to have picked up where she did in the midst of that grief as well, and then to still be able to make difficult [01:05:20] decisions that allowed for journalism to flourish and do its job, and to make those decisions with, like, the respect for the [01:05:30] profession, the integrity, and the professional business risk, it's amazing.

Yeah, like... And, and so I think it is, it does help that there [01:05:40] was something about her that seemed to Like, be driven by principle enough that it seemed strange to her to go in any other path?

Michael: Yeah, [01:05:50] yeah.

Sara: Yeah, the idea that she was expected to contribute to the world and to not just, you know, maintain properties or investments or, or whatever.

But I just think that it is... [01:06:00] She was a, she was somebody who made contributions, had a chosen field, and allowed it to flourish, and I think that... And, and I, yeah, I [01:06:10] respect that. I respect that.

Michael: Yeah, I, no, 100%. I, I... So I mean, what you're speaking to is what she did. I also love the way she did it. It doesn't come [01:06:20] across as entitled, even though, I mean, I'm sure there's some of that there.

It doesn't come across as, you know, um, self-righteous. You know? [01:06:30] I mean, even though, even when she's coming under incredible attacks for Washington Post being some liberal newspaper and, you know, whatever, I mean, she... There, there [01:06:40] is a, a grace and a, um, a sense of purpose and meaning. I mean, I think that what this category is really about, and this is something I'm, you [01:06:50] know, personally struggling with a lot, i- is what is, what is the point of me?

You know? What... A- and, and I, I like that, [01:07:00] a, a... the way that, um, relationships have woven into this conversation. You know, the, the, the... You know, [01:07:10] even though it's she's raised in the patriarchy with certain kinds of traditional housewife, you know, subservient, um, [01:07:20] ideas, the, the way that virtue finds its expression in corporate America and in media is, um, [01:07:30] I don't know.

It, it, it, it, it has me inspired, and it has me thinking, "What are my core virtues?" You know? And I, I know some of them are about selflessness, but I wanna get more [01:07:40] specific than that, you know? Um-

Sara: So I think the case for the upward staircase for Katharine Graham is that she had- [01:07:50] The opportunity that is presented to very few people, but I think even fewer people would have been [01:08:00] prepared for it and been brave enough to step into it.

And so I think that that is a legacy, that she took on a job that was too big for [01:08:10] anybody while she was grieving, um, and trying to manage her father's legacy and an opportunity she [01:08:20] wanted for her sons. And in the midst of that, she not only kept the paper alive, she became a publishing icon [01:08:30] because she could respect the work of the paper and make principled and courageous decisions at [01:08:40] moments that ultimately turned history.

And in the midst of all that, she appears to have been a good [01:08:50] friend who was able to somehow have actual friendships in the midst of a very connection-driven [01:09:00] society, um, and to be the type of parent that she wanted for herself. And if that is not some [01:09:10] type of progress, selflessness, sense of purpose, and contribution, I'm not sure how we're gonna make the case for a lot of other people.

Michael: Yeah. What's interesting about [01:09:20] all of that, and I just feel like I need to call it out, like at no point did you say, "As a woman," or, "As a feminist figure," or any, you know? Like, it, that was, that was [01:09:30] not... It was surprisingly not gendered, um, which

Sara: is- Well, that's because the whole point is that it wasn't that she was a woman, it was that she [01:09:40] was educated, had the opportunity, and knocked it out of the park[01:09:50]

Michael: Speed round, plugs for past shows. Um, so Sarah, if people enjoyed this episode on Katharine Graham, what else from [01:10:00] the Famous and Gravy archives might they like?

Sara: Well, um, we have Margaret Thatcher. And we, uh... Basically, I would start with the list we were talking about at the front end and kinda run through those.

[01:10:10] Anybody played

Michael: by Meryl

Sara: Streep. So- A- anybody played by Meryl Streep, and then, um... But I did, this did make me miss my Harper Lee episode. So if you, if you liked this discussion and you wanna hear, um, [01:10:20] uh, Michael Osborne and I talk about s- uh, women in this, yeah, Harper Lee and literature and these little glitterati societies that exist [01:10:30] and, um, all the things you read about as history, uh, Harper Lee might be a good place to go to.

Michael: All right. That is episode 122, Southern Expat, Harper Lee. [01:10:40] Uh, I was thinking about Mary Tyler Moore. Uh, I- there was a little bit of a, uh, a, a unexpected, uh, journey into feminism with her. [01:10:50] Um, and episode... And also, like, an incredible story with some real cosmic coincidences. So, uh, episode 47, uh, Proud [01:11:00] Mary, uh, Mary Tyler Moore.

So that's the one I was gonna plug. Uh, here is a little preview for the next episode of Famous and Gravy. According to his own account, [01:11:10] when he was born, midwives thought he was stillborn, but his body stayed warm and he was revived. Oh,

Friend: wow. That's fascinating.

Michael: And turns out not to be [01:11:20] true, but yes.

Friend: Oh, well.

Michael: Famous and Gravy listeners, we love hearing from you. If you wanna reach out with a comment, a question, or p- to participate in our opening quiz, email us at [01:11:30] hello@famousandgravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website, our social channels, and our Substack. Famous and Gravy is created, uh, by Amit Kapoor and me, [01:11:40] Michael Osborne.

Uh, thank you so much to the wonderful Sarah Murphy for joining me on this episode. A- and thank you as always to Jacob Weiss and Kevin [01:11:50] Strang for original music. See you next [01:12:00] time