137 Famous Friend (Matthew Perry)

TRANSCRIPT

Alice: [00:00:00] This is Famous and Gravy, biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. [00:00:10] Now, here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2023, age 54. His mother worked as a press [00:00:20] secretary for the Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau.

His father was a character actor.

Friend: Oh, um- There's so many Canadians. Well, I was, I just, I just [00:00:30] went like Norm Macdonald, but they ... He, I think you've already done Norm Macdonald.

Michael: Not Norm Macdonald. Yeah. Good guess. All right. He once said, quote, "I believed fame would change [00:00:40] everything, and I yearned for it more than any other person on the face of the planet.

I needed it. It was the only thing that would fix me. I was certain of it." End quote.

Friend: How old did you [00:00:50] say they were when they died? All the ones I can think of are, like, still

Michael: alive. That's good. They should be if they're 54. His most famous character used a humorous technique where [00:01:00] he asked a sarcastic rhetorical question in a tone of mock disbelief.

Friend: Yeah. Who doesn't do that? Was John Candy Canadian?

Michael: Not John [00:01:10] Candy, uh, but great guess. A jet ski accident in 1997 helped set in motion his addiction to painkillers. It's a very celebrity thing to have happen.

Friend: Word. It, [00:01:20] again, I have this joke with my friend about the how rich people die curriculum. That's one of them.

Michael: By his own [00:01:30] account, he had spent more than half his life in treatment and rehab facilities.

Friend: And of course, I'm, I'm still thinking of Martin Short as Jiminy Glick for some reason.

Michael: Glad you're going there. Not Martin [00:01:40] Short. He played Chandler Bing on the TV show Friends.

Friend: Matthew Perry. Is it Matt Perry, Matthew Perry?

Uh, Matthew Perry. Is it Matthew [00:01:50] Perry? Who died? Oh, Matthew Perry.

Michael: Yeah. Today's dead celebrity is Matthew Perry[00:02:00]

Archival: You know, the thing that always makes me cry and I'll, I'll, I'll cry here is that it's not fair. It's not, it's not fair. It's not fair [00:02:10] It's not fair ... that I had to go through, that I had to go through this disease while the other five didn't. They got everything that I, that I got, [00:02:20] but I, I had to fight this thing, and still have to fight this thing.

So just to end this on a good note, there are people that will help you, and get [00:02:30] their help. It doesn't go away. It never goes away[00:02:40]

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

Alice: And I am Alice [00:02:50] Florence Orr.

Michael: And on this show, we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What could we not see [00:03:00] clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves?

Today, Matthew Perry, died 2023, age 54. Alice, [00:03:10] welcome back to Famous and Gravy. Thanks for making time for this one.

Alice: Oh, it's my pleasure. And, and third time's the charm.

Michael: Uh, I gotta know, are you, uh... Are [00:03:20] you a big Friends fan?

Alice: It's a great question. I am an elder Gen Z.

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Alice: This is my first time declaring that on public record-

but technically, I am an elder Gen Z.

Michael: [00:03:30] Thanks for

Alice: outing

Michael: yourself. Yeah.

Alice: I emerged into an already actualized Friends phenomenon. Yeah. It wasn't something that I had to sort of decide to be a fan of. It was [00:03:40] sort of ubiquitous in the culture, so I absorbed it almost by os- osmosis. Yeah, yeah. I didn't really consciously decide to watch it.

Kind of like The Big Bang Theory, it just was [00:03:50] always on.

Archival: Right.

Alice: And I, I personally, at the time, really enjoyed it. I thought it was funny. I certainly wasn't one of those people who found a lot of fault in it. I, I kind [00:04:00] of sort of took it- At face value to an extent. Um, but it certainly wasn't something that, you know, I actively had a fandom around.

Um, and I- for good or [00:04:10] ill, it shaped my perception of like what being an adult was supposed to be like. And so when I became an adult and I was finding that quite difficult, um, kind [00:04:20] of like Sex and the City, you know, those sorts of TV shows where you go, "God, I really thought I was going to have like a signature look by now."

Or like, "Why don't, why don't, why are people not calling my [00:04:30] haircut like the Alice haircut? Like, why am I- Yeah. ... why don't I have a job?" You know, it was really interesting. Um, but I think Friends ultimately does address a lot of those questions.

Michael: Yeah.

Alice: So it [00:04:40] was still approachable in that way, and I also think that a lot of elder Gen Z, like myself, are very deferent to our millennial overlords.

Yes. Yeah. [00:04:50] And, um,

Michael: we

Alice: don't, we don't, yeah, judge them quite as harshly as maybe you think we do. So yeah, I enjoyed it. What about yourself?

Michael: First of all, [00:05:00] I've been surpr- I didn't expect this show to have the shelf life it's had. I didn't expect it to have the currency and the, the [00:05:10] sort of like ubiquity, as you said.

Um, when it was popular, I was... I happened to be in a place in my life where I was trying to turn off the television a [00:05:20] lot more. I liked some of the early seasons. I certainly watched it, and I also, I will say particularly liked Chandler Bing and Matthew Perry's character. Of, [00:05:30] of the six of them, or really of the three guys, he was sort of the one I, I, I would say I probably most wanted to hang out with in a kind of parasocial way.

But, you know, by seasons [00:05:40] three or four, I was tired of network TV, and I was trying to shut off my screen more often. And so I, I didn't watch the show while [00:05:50] it was on. And, and then it was one of those things where it reached this level of popularity where I was almost put off by it. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm now more [00:06:00] interested in it precisely because it does have that shelf life, even though if there are, you know, problems with representation, and the apartment was too big, and all these other sort of holes you can poke a- [00:06:10] a- at it.

Um, I wouldn't say it was important to me, but, but I think that had more to do with me than it being important. Um, so [00:06:20] that's kinda where I'm at with Friends. Well, I, I, I have to say too, I mean, you know, this is sort of a very different topic, but, you know, you and I have had a lot of conversations behind the scenes [00:06:30] about recovery, about celebrity- Mm-hmm

uh, and about, you know, even podcasting right now. Um, yeah, I should say Alice is the managing editor for [00:06:40] Podcast Review, among other things. So I think let's just get to it. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Matthew Perry, who gained [00:06:50] sitcom superstardom as Chandler Bing on the show Friends, becoming a model of the ability to tease your pals as an expression of [00:07:00] love, has died.

He was 54. Why didn't they mention his addiction? I, I'm sorry, is that not glaring [00:07:10] as an omission to you?

Alice: I, I know that you tend to go for, um, you know, legacy media like New York Times obituaries and things like this, things like that for this [00:07:20] category. Mm-hmm. When I read this, I thought it was, like, a Facebook post.

I was really, um, uh, as you say, really, um, [00:07:30] overlooking some of the key elements in his story, especially his more recent story. But also- Yes ... to just summarize his entire acting career as, like, he was... And this [00:07:40] is something I'll bring up later. Like, he was a very serious working actor, and had been since, you know, he was a teenager.

And to sort of just- Yeah ... encapsulate not just, [00:07:50] not just his role on Friends as this kind of like, oh yeah, he, he represented something. He represented being able to be goofy to people. I'm like, he's not a cartoon [00:08:00] character. It was very bizarre to me sort of to reduce him not just to his character, but even, even more

Archival: just

Alice: using- As the guy who teases as ef- Chandler Bing

as [00:08:10] an expression of

Archival: love?

Alice: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. To such a sort of reductive, um, description. It-

Archival: Jimmy, it's me [00:08:20] Oz, what the hell were you thinking taking off with Cynthia like that? I'm sorry, but I can't let you kill her. What do you mean you can't let me kill her? What are you... [00:08:30] This got nothing to do with you.

Jimmy, I'm in love with her So I don't[00:08:40]

What did you just say? I love her

Will you, will you listen to yourself? What are you talking about you love her? You just [00:08:50] met her. He said he's in love with Cynthia. No shit. So she's the one. She's the one what? The one he stopped in Chicago. The one he-[00:09:00]

My wife You shtupped my wife, Oz? I wouldn't exactly necessarily phrase it that way [00:09:10] exactly.

Michael: Actually, let me defend it a little bit. I will say that, yes, this is the thing we most know him for, and not just saying he was a character on the show [00:09:20] Friends, but that, you know, actually explicitly saying Chandler Bing on the show Friends.

Um, I do think you're absolutely right. He had success, uh, you know, [00:09:30] in movies. It wasn't the same level. I think that people are going to most remember him for Chandler Bing. At the same time, the other thing we're [00:09:40] gonna remember is that this is one of the most public addicts that we've had in a generation.

He's on the short list of like, "This is what we think about [00:09:50] when we talk about Matthew Perry," and that was very well-known at the time of his death. This is only a couple years after he's published a very successful memoir [00:10:00] detailing, you know, his experiences as an addict in recovery. Um, so I, I don't know how you don't include that.

That feels like if, if the goal of the first line [00:10:10] of the obit is to say, "This is what you know this person for," that is a serious omission.

Alice: Odd to hear [00:10:20] somebody write, "Tease your pals," in the first line of an obit. Yeah, yeah. I have to say, that was the thing that kind of got me, because tease your pals, I was like, "Is this guy Scottish?"[00:10:30]

I... That's something I would say as- Yeah ... you know, as a Scot. I, it, it felt very casual. And I also don't think that that's what Chandler [00:10:40] represented, either. Right. So I

Michael: was very confused. That's the other thing. Of all the things to say about Chandler, tease your pals? I mean, yes, but I think you could point to the charisma- Mm-hmm

or something. And, like, [00:10:50] tease your pals is part of it, but not, not first line of the obit material. The thing is, we don't need this clause. If, once you've said who we [00:11:00] most know for, TV show Friends, and the character Chandler Bing- Mm-hmm ... you don't need to elaborate on that. No. I, and maybe there's a temptation to do it because [00:11:10] as, as he himself would say, his personality was a, a tight fit with the character, but it still feels like it's more about the character [00:11:20] than it is about him.

And, and that there's not a sort of essential quality of him. And, and, and more than anything, I mean, I just keep returning to the first point, that they're, [00:11:30] they're skirting around the more obvious headline. Um, so-

Alice: I wonder if they were in the edi- editorial office, and somebody had written, after the Friends, [00:11:40] uh, segment of the sentence, somebody had written, "Who later became," you know, uh, "spokesperson for," you know, ad- Right

[00:11:50] addiction or whatever. Totally, yeah. In Hollywood, or something like that. And somebody just went, "No, you can't put that in," and then there was an argument.

Michael: That's actually a really [00:12:00] interesting point. Because, and this is something I'm, I'm gonna wanna talk about in other categories, but I do think that there's a very easy, um...

I mean, uh, [00:12:10] this actually gives the, the, the writers of the obit a little bit more credibility, because I do think that it's very possible to say, "You know what? [00:12:20] The way he describes recovery-" doesn't work, and he's an example of the failure of, I mean, he explicitly calls out AA and the 12 [00:12:30] steps- Mm-hmm ... in his memoir.

And so maybe it's one of these things where they chose not to include it because people might draw the wrong conclusions- Mm-hmm ... of here's yet another [00:12:40] reason why Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't work. And I think that that's a, that would be a very fair consideration. I, I wonder if they thought about it that much.

Um- Mm-hmm ... [00:12:50] it's an open question. I will say this, we've, you know, done a Whitney Houston episode, and just so that it's clear, you know, that sentence the way that one reads [00:13:00] is, you know, bestselling singer, uh, greatest voice, uh, R&B voice of a generation, and then it says, "Only to deteriorate through years of cocaine use and an abusive [00:13:10] marriage."

Mm-hmm. Why is Matthew Perry off the hook for ODing, and Whitney Houston isn't? I'm, uh, I'm, I'm calling out a double standard here, goddammit. I

Alice: agree. I think that, uh, it was [00:13:20] very much, uh, the prerogative.

Archival: So now let's go back and look again to something we were seeing on screen but never fully [00:13:30] recognized, Matthew Perry clearly changing from season to season, signaling something is wrong.

He writes this in his book: "You can track the trajectory of my [00:13:40] addiction if you gauge my weight from season to season. When I'm carrying weight, it's alcohol. When I'm skinny, it's pills." He writes about the [00:13:50] scenes that remind him how he was just barely holding on. He needed the pills to function, but the pills destroy appetite and cause deep nausea.

I feel too sorry [00:14:00] for that guy. He's going through too much, and it's me, and I remember that, [00:14:10] and I didn't understand what was going on

Michael: Let's go ahead and grade the first line. So what did you come up with, a score? I'm curious.

Alice: I came up with [00:14:20] a four.

Michael: Okay. I had a three. Yeah. I think we're right in the same place.

I thought, I mean, I really think swing, swing and a miss. I'm glad you... They said Friends. That was obvious. That's [00:14:30] low-hanging fruit. Mm-hmm. I don't think we needed an elaboration on the character. I think we needed to point to what we're going to remember him for, and what we knew we were going to remember him [00:14:40] for- Mm-hmm

you know, when he died. I, I... This, this feels, to me, fundamentally negligent. I gave the Whitney Houston obit a four in that episode, and, uh, I, I've [00:14:50] gotta, I've gotta rank this one even lower just on principle. So, um, okay, let's go on. Category two, five things I love about you. Here, Alice and I will develop a list of five [00:15:00] things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived.

I- I've got some stuff, but I'm kinda curious what you've got. Do you wanna lead us off?

Alice: First thing I had, [00:15:10] uh, which will later connect to one of the things I have for another category, so that's a, that's a teaser for later on, is that, um, I love the fact that he [00:15:20] was a committed working actor who- Mm ... did not, not just comedic roles.

You know, he, both before and [00:15:30] after Friends, did serious acting, and he was in the sadly canceled pilot of an Aaron [00:15:40] Sorkin show called Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip.

Michael: Yes.

Alice: I find this fascinating because it just almost... It's one of those things that you think, "Wow, this is like a [00:15:50] little teaser of what an alternative universe for his life would be like."

Mm-hmm. Like, where that show took off, and he became more of like a, I don't know, like a Rob Lowe figure or somebody [00:16:00] like that. Yeah. I just feel like people really saw him as such a comedic person, and that really overshadowed the fact that he was a really good actor. [00:16:10]

Archival: I don't have a cold open. And unless we find Bin Laden between now and Friday night, we're gonna have people's attention for the open.

It needs to be too many things. What does it need to be? [00:16:20] Self-deprecating, an acknowledgement and an acceptance. A message from the producers? It should be on a grand scale. What's a grand scale? A song. [00:16:30] A big song, a musical number. All right. It should pay respect to where we are, this studio, this city. Keep talking.

I'm trying. We take [00:16:40] the show seriously, but we don't take ourselves seriously? That's right. We screw it up, but we won't do it again. Yeah. We'll be model citizens. We'll be a model... We'll be a model [00:16:50] You know who did the best frat humor of all time? Rudy Vali? Groucho Marx. It was W.S. Gilbert. Be the very model of a modern network TV [00:17:00] show.

We hope that you don't mind that our producer was caught doing blow.

Yes? [00:17:10] Yes. What do we have that says legacy of television, like Arturo Toscanini and the NBC Orchestra? Jane. What do we have that says- Jane! Jane! Yeah, I'm just coming to see you. I'm on hold with Clay [00:17:20] Aiken's manager. Then hang up the damn phone. We need John Mozerie and the West Coast Philharmonic. We're also gonna need the LA Light Opera Chorus, and if you can't get them, try the LA Phil or the USC or [00:17:30] UCLA Orchestra.

Whoever it is, it's gotta be Los Angeles. I'll call you back. They gotta be able to play. Is this a joke? We're counting on it. No. Okay, now we just need to write the song and the rest of the show [00:17:40]

Alice: He wasn't just sitting back- No ... and letting the roles come to him. You know, he was trying different things, cameoing on lots of different types of shows.

And I just would l- have loved to [00:17:50] see where that show went, um-

Michael: Yeah ...

Alice: if they'd actually let it run.

Michael: It's an, it's an interesting point you raise because I do feel like he has unexplored [00:18:00] depths that we kind of- Mm-hmm ... see in his public persona that, you know, are... Those do remain somewhat unexpressed, and that he wasn't just relying on his, you know, [00:18:10] charm and good looks.

Um, and, and some of this is just pure luck. In fact, I think- Mm-hmm ... you know, I talked to a friend of mine who was in Hollywood for a number of years, and, you know, [00:18:20] he, he said there were roles he went after where he nailed the audition, and he was ready to start spending money even before the check came in, and never [00:18:30] happened.

There was other things he got for reasons that he never would be able to explain. Mm-hmm. And I think that there is, you know, a lot more luck [00:18:40] involved in what we associate people with than we give credit for. Even, and this is a, an interesting thing in his memoir, even him getting the role of Chandler, you know, he had a [00:18:50] best friend who was up for it.

That friend went with another role- Mm ... creating the opening. Matthew Perry goes for it. He's the sixth cast member on Friends. [00:19:00] Um, I think your point, though, is that a more talented actor than maybe we give him credit for.

Alice: Yeah, and committed. Like, this wasn't something that... He wanted to be famous, [00:19:10] 100%, but I think he really enjoyed acting.

This was something that he- Mm-hmm ... it was, it's, it's difficult because obviously he had a lot of, um- trauma tied up in the idea [00:19:20] of being performative and people liking- Yeah ... him when he, uh, acts almost like a persona of himself. So I definitely don't think it was something that was, like, purely a passion, [00:19:30] but also very much a sort of trauma response.

But, you know, I think he, he was genuinely passionate about the craft and, and- Yeah ... yeah, I think that shows. [00:19:40] He's clearly so naturally gifted.

Michael: I gotta say, as I've been getting ready for this episode, I find myself, whenever I see him on the [00:19:50] screen, like studying his face more- Mm-hmm ... than I would've expect.

He's got that star power- Yes ... where you just, you want to look- Yeah ... and kind of, like, read [00:20:00] into, you know, his mannerisms and his body language- And- ... and his face ...

Alice: and comedic acting is so hard. I was actually having this conversation with my boyfriend recently, and I said, [00:20:10] "There are no... There's only, like, one comedic actor that has emerged in the last 10 years."

Hm. "That I believe is a genuinely good comedic actor." And my boyfriend's- Who's that? ... like, "Who [00:20:20] is it?" Yeah. "Oh, I bet I can guess." And he couldn't, he couldn't guess it, and I said, "It's The Rock." And that's the only one. Wow. I feel like comedic acting has just taken such a nosedive in the last- [00:20:30] Yeah ... little while.

And sure, there are people that are doing it on TV, and it's very good and... But I, I think the, uh, in terms of, like, somebody who's, like, a leading man in a comedic role [00:20:40] who wasn't already active, like somebody who's, like, become, you know, r- has really become a comedic- Has evolved into- ... leading man ... a comedic actor, yeah

yeah, I would, like, pick The Rock, and that's it. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I just think that- [00:20:50] I love that. Hot take ... what Matthew Perry did was so unique, and, like, it's very hard to replicate. Yeah.

Michael: Okay. Uh, I'll give you my number two. I started to allude to this earlier when we [00:21:00] were talking about the obit. I do think it's very easy to draw the wrong lesson from his memoir and his very [00:21:10] public, um, you know, discussions and, and, and how forthcoming he is about his experiences in recovery.

But I do think it, that there is a part of him, [00:21:20] an egoless part of him, that is essentially trying to donate himself to science, that is trying to offer, you know, his story and his experience up [00:21:30] as a case study in both celebrity and recovery. He's very naked about his base desires for love and fame and money and [00:21:40] attention and success.

Um, there's an interview where he references what Jim Carrey said. I always love this. Jim Carrey said at one point, "I wish everybody in the [00:21:50] world could have all of their dreams come true for, for 15 minutes so that they could see that it doesn't fix the problem, that it doesn't answer [00:22:00] all of, of, of the internal stuff."

And, and Matthew Perry goes to great lengths in his memoir to, to try and make that point. One, to say how [00:22:10] much he craved those things, how much he craved adulation, stardom.

Archival: For the first time in my life, I knelt down and prayed, [00:22:20] and that prayer was, "Please, God, make me famous. You can do anything you want to me.

Just make me famous." [00:22:30] Three weeks later, I got Friends, and God did not forget about the second part.

Michael: I, I think that he's an exceptional case study- Mm ... [00:22:40] for really the trappings of fame, and I think it gets very, very complicated. I, I see his story as one where it's [00:22:50] confusing to him what his purpose is if it's not being a successful actor, that [00:23:00] w- you know, how can he give back.

Mm-hmm. And I guess I think he wants to, and I think he wants to use himself and his brand and his reputation, but the way that gets [00:23:10] all entangled with his ego I think is ultimately one of the things that, that might take him out. This is more of a famous and gravy point. I love this about him because I think [00:23:20] that, I think that there's a lot to learn a- a- about the ego and about these natural instincts and desires and how they are [00:23:30] masking, you know, a, a, a deeper void inside.

Alice: I think that's very astute and, and kind of tragic as well because, [00:23:40] um I think I, when I read his memoir, and I'd read a lot of recovery memoirs by that point and heard people talking about it a lot, which is one of the [00:23:50] reasons why I kind of prompted this discussion with you about, you know, "Oh, I- I've been listening to these recovery podcasts.

Like, what do you, do you think there's, like, a through line here?"

Michael: Yeah.

Alice: I've always been very much [00:24:00] of the, uh, passionate about the redemptive arc, and I do think that, you know, that is something that we all need to hold on to. When I read his [00:24:10] memoir, Friends, Lovers, and the Big Terrible Thing, it was the first time I just closed a book and I was like, "This, this is a near hopeless case."

And I, I never say that. Oh, wow. I never say that. [00:24:20] Interesting. Interesting. It's very difficult for me to admit that, but I o- I closed that book and I was like, "This guy is an addict with a capital A," and it's very challenging for me to read that. [00:24:30]

Michael: Yeah.

Alice: They say, I think it might have been in the memoir, maybe in a different memoir I read, but they were saying that, um...

Oh, this actually might be a Rich Roll quote. Um, he was saying, [00:24:40] you know, addiction either leads you to, uh, your grave or jail. And then the third-

Michael: Yeah, jail as institution and death is something you [00:24:50]

Alice: hear a

Michael: lot. Yes. Yeah. Uh, uh-

Alice: Or you have the option to recover, and a true addict will go, "I'll get back to you on that."

Michael: Yeah.

Alice: And that, I just, [00:25:00] was so difficult to read a book written by somebody who is constantly kind of, even the, the... He says a, he says there's a glimmer of a moment where, like, he was told that if he didn't [00:25:10] quit Oxycontin- He would end up with a colostomy bag, and that was like- Yeah ... a moment where he really reflects and goes, [00:25:20] "Hey, I don't...

Maybe I should not take this drug anymore." But it, it had to get, it got to such an extreme level. Got to such- Yeah ... such an extreme level that [00:25:30] even by the time I finished the book and he was saying things like, "Oh, I, I want to help other people," and, um, it was... I just [00:25:40] found it really hard to believe him. I f- I found it very difficult.

And, you

Michael: know- So, okay, yeah, yeah. This is what I wanna ask about. So, well, one, it's interesting you almost closed the book and [00:25:50] saw it all the way through. Two, I, I don't, I, I don't know if this is what you were speaking to. I certainly felt kind of exhausted by him- Yes. Yeah ... uh, you know, in reading that. I was, [00:26:00] uh, I was worn out, and it certainly reminds me of other people I know who, you know, they say some are sicker than others.

He has [00:26:10] the disease of addiction and alcoholism as- about as bad as, as anybody ever has. Or he's up there, right? He's an, he's an extreme case. But, but [00:26:20] was your desire to wanna close the book that you felt, that it felt disingenuous? Or that it, it felt exhausting? I mean, sort of help put your finger on the emotion [00:26:30] that led you to wanting to be like, "I don't know if I can keep listening to this or reading this."

Alice: You know, I, I remember when I was reading the book, I ha- I, [00:26:40] I remember somebody asking, I think it was Dax Shepard, if he would ever have Matthew Perry on, and he said, "No, you know, he's still..." This was all, like, very [00:26:50] alleged, obviously, but like, "Oh, no, he still keeps a property in Mexico," and all these kinds of things.

I think there was, like, just generally a sense of... Because from my perspective, when [00:27:00] I was r- s- so-called recovering, I w- I was in recovery for 10 years before I actually was in recovery.

Archival: Mm-hmm.

Alice: If that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. So I know the kind of things that you can lie [00:27:10] y- to yourself and say that you're doing and you're actually not, because the- The things that are the most uncomfortable are the things that you can kind of almost like talk your way [00:27:20] around.

Michael: Yes.

Alice: And, and give alternative narratives and alternative stories. And I kind of read it as like, okay, this is a, [00:27:30] this writing a memoir about my recovery would be a great way of continuing to be a drug addict and- Uh, yeah, yeah. No, I, I, I- ... obfuscating away from the fact that I still [00:27:40] want to be a drug or an alcoholic.

Yeah. And hopefully people will just leave me alone for a few more years. And it was, it was really hard because that was the energy it was giving, especially [00:27:50] at the end. And I do believe him when he says that he wants to help other people, of course, but I, I also- Yeah ... got the sense that he was, um, he was like, "Well, this is what people expect me to do now, and I'm gonna do [00:28:00] it because it, it, it both makes me feel better about myself, and also make other people look, look, in a way, more [00:28:10] closely, but not actually at the problem."

Michael: Yeah. I think this is, you're putting your nail in it. I, I gotta say, this is exactly my experience- Mm-hmm ... of the book.

Archival: But I looked at the book and I was [00:28:20] just like, "This guy has had like the most torturous life. I can't believe it." And then I realized it was me that I was talking about. [00:28:30] And, you know, it was...

I, I literally had to sleep in a different room. I was working on a laptop, and I, I moved the laptop into my living room so I could [00:28:40] sleep that night, 'cause it was so powerfully dark. And for so long, I didn't know what was going [00:28:50] on. I do now. Um-

Michael: There's a part of me that's like, "Dude, I'm, I'm not quite buying something here."

Mm-hmm. And I'm having a hard time identifying why that is, [00:29:00] where I see, you know, there's places where your ego is rearing its ugly head, and, and, and I'm not persuaded, I'm not convinced. I know you want to [00:29:10] tell yourself and the world that you are a, a redemptive story and a story of hope. I don't know. But I, but I do feel like he, he does lay, [00:29:20] uh, uh, maybe even unintentionally, lays bare the conflict, the internal conflict, and tries to like bring you into his psychology where- Mm-hmm

[00:29:30] um, where I, I find that at least valuable as a case study. Yeah. If not, you know, also tragic and a cautionary [00:29:40] tale- Yeah ... because of how it ended. So I, I think both things are true.

Alice: Yeah.

Michael: All right, what do you got for number three? This is, this is good and dark, I'm having-

Alice: Oh, it's very dark. It's [00:29:50] actually gonna be so dark.

All the things- Well, I mean, I- Like, all the things that I love about him are, like, dark things that, like, are exemplary of the fact

Michael: that- I've got, I've got a couple

Alice: of minor tales. Let [00:30:00] me- He was still able to function despite- You know? It's extraordinary. Yeah. Honestly. Um-

Michael: Uh, is that your thing, number three?

What is your

Alice: thing, number three? Yeah. No, I mean, kind of. Basically, I was [00:30:10] fascinated by the fact that he admitted to having no memory of recording three whole seasons of Friends.

Michael: Yeah.

Alice: I think that's extraordinary. That's an extraordinary thing to admit. Yeah. [00:30:20] Like, which seasons he couldn't remember, I have no

There's no way for us to know, because he's that good at acting, and I just think that that's, like, diabolically [00:30:30] horrible.

Archival: But I did work extremely hungover and, you know, at one point I was shaking so much that if I was gonna [00:30:40] cross, if I was gonna go from the bookshelf to the table, I'd have to kind of quickly do it and put my hand on the table so I wouldn't shake And, you know, it got, [00:30:50] it got that bad

Alice: But that's been his whole life of just, like, performing for us so that we get what we want, and then we look away from the fact that [00:31:00] he's destroying himself.

So I, yeah, it's... He's almost too talented. Like, he, his, his, his ability to perform is what ultimately I think led [00:31:10] to his downfall, yeah.

Michael: I, I think the word functional is really tough s- on some levels because he is successful and good at acting [00:31:20] and good at comedy. Mm-hmm. Um, and also good on some level at the performance of celebrity.

Uh, you know, this also c- it's gonna [00:31:30] be hard not to reference the Whitney Houston episode, but this also came up there where I think one of the things that happens when you're famous is that you lose control of your story. [00:31:40] Mm-hmm. And that one of the things that, you know, r- recovery is supposed to do, um, e- especially if it's a, you know, sort [00:31:50] of spiritual path, is, is resolve some of that inner conflict so that the story you tell about yourself and reality are, are more in alignment.

Mm-hmm. [00:32:00] That, you know, where the experience of insanity comes from is that you're trying to tell the world a story of who you are, and the truth inside you is [00:32:10] irreconcilable with that external narrative. Mm-hmm. And if you are a person who has stories written about them and lives a life that is highly scrutinized, that [00:32:20] navigating your way to that resolution becomes all the more complicated.

I mean, this is part of the case study part of it. That said, you know, he is still [00:32:30] very on some level functional, right? Mm-hmm. And he, like, the fact that he can do three seasons of a show well and be compensated well and, [00:32:40] uh, a- and, and not have any memory of them does... I, I, I mean, I don't know. What does it say?

What does it speak to- Well- ... on some

Alice: level? Yeah ... I think as a comparison, I was reading [00:32:50] about the actor Jonathan Rhys Meyers is a Irish actor who was in a lot of sort of... He was in Bend It Like Beckham, and he was in this TV s- show called The Tudors, which is very [00:33:00] famous in, well, in the UK, yeah. And, um, he basically stopped acting because he s- struggled with addiction.

Um- Then [00:33:10] he got married, he recovered, he very much faced all of his problems. He is now healthy and sober.

Michael: Yeah.

Alice: But his acting career obviously tanked. [00:33:20] And I thought that was... I mean, this doesn't have to be a binary thing at all, but I do think it was really interesting to think about that in the sense that when you are, [00:33:30] you know, somebody like Matthew Perry who's built all of his, uh, perception of himself over like, "I have to be liked, I have to be accepted.

[00:33:40] The only way to be liked and accepted and have people stay with me rather than abandon me is for me to perform and be funny and be liked," um, it would be [00:33:50] totally unacceptable for him to be kicked off a TV show or to be fired or anything like that. So he's just doing everything he can To keep up that [00:34:00] perception.

And I think that's why in many ways the memoir was so shocking, is because, like, well, obviously we knew that he was going to rehab, but we had no idea that [00:34:10] his colon exploded. We had no idea that, you know, he broke up with, um, Julia Roberts because he was so afraid that she was gonna break up with him.

Like, all of this kind of stuff. [00:34:20] Jennifer Aniston confronting him about his addictions. You know, it's... These are really horrible things to go through, and he just sort of, like... You know, I think he was acting all the way up until [00:34:30] maybe, like, what is it? The early 2010s?

Michael: Yeah. I mean, I think there are some roles in the 2015, or in the 2010s, but it's not, it's not much.

I mean, I think [00:34:40] things,

Alice: things- No. It, it's kind of extraordinary that he went that long, to be honest.

Michael: For my thing number four, I don't know exactly how I want to phrase this, but I actually want to steal something you said earlier. Mm-hmm. [00:34:50] I, I think that there is... This is, this is harder to frame as a thing I love about him, but I, I will say [00:35:00] unclear in terms of how he experiences love through friendship, and in particularly male friendship.

I think you really put your [00:35:10] finger on something important there, that he certainly talks about, you know, guys he came up with. Hank Azaria in particular I think is really interesting as a kind of confidant and a pre-fame, [00:35:20] um, you know, uh, uh, friend. Um, and then, and then there's these brothers he grew up with who he had his first drink with.

But it, it, it, you know, the... [00:35:30] It kind of in a funny way ties to this, that, that phrase that I think was ill-placed, but not totally inaccurate, about teasing as an [00:35:40] expression of love- Mm-hmm ... uh, in Chandler Bing. That I, I think that I, I, I w- have real questions about his exper- his ability [00:35:50] to, to experience love, and in part because I think he struggles to love himself.

And I do think that that is sort of striking that [00:36:00] he's not great at doing it with, with other guys and with men, from what we can tell. Mm-hmm. This is more in the sort of category- Mm ... of cautionary tale. Um, [00:36:10] it's become really important to me as I get older that I continue to make new friends and make new friends with- dudes, honestly.

Like I, I need to, I mean, I [00:36:20] wanna make new friends with everybody, but like my male friendships, uh, are, are really important and I've got, I've had to like relax a lot of my, um, insecurities and [00:36:30] vulnerabilities i- in, in order to make new friendships with people who I really admire and respect so that there is like space for vulnerability.

It's a hard thing for, I, I guess guys of [00:36:40] my generation, but I think guys overall, you know, heteronorm- normative guys especially, to, to do and not feel weird about. Um, and, and, [00:36:50] a- and so I learned something about that, and I think you actually started to allude to this earlier in terms of what you identified in the memoir.

Alice: He does strike me as being a very lonely person, [00:37:00] especially towards the end where if you're in a, if you're in a situation where you have an abandonment problem, which is what he- Mm-hmm ... developed as a child, there's [00:37:10] no way you can have like a casual friendship.

Archival: And I always have this image of this big ballroom, like this room like this, this big ballroom, [00:37:20] and my mother walking in and taking all sort of the glory because she was beautiful and people just knew her.

And, and I was like five feet behind her, and all [00:37:30] I wanted was for her to turn around and, you know, f- focus on me and, like, be with, be with me. You took me, and it's... [00:37:40] I, I want, I, I wa- I want your company. I want you to help, help me. I'm a kid, you know? And, uh, she never really did that. And what I've [00:37:50] realized as an older guy is that I've s- I still do that a little bit.

What do you mean? It's the... I still want the unavailable, the [00:38:00] person who's not turning around. I still, like, want that person to turn around and notice me.

Alice: It's interesting because he does bounce a lot between romantic partners, [00:38:10] which is s- is very different 'cause I think, uh, developing romantic relationships is a little bit It's more of a contract because you can define it, right?

Whereas friendships you don't [00:38:20] define. You don't say, "Oh, we are best friends now. That is our s- you know, relationship status. We don't see other friends outside of our best friendship." You know, like it's, it's, it's a lot more, [00:38:30] uh, fluid and undefinable. Whereas he, he likes, he likes definites. He either likes to be in or out, [00:38:40] in a relationship, out of a relationship.

None of this kind of ambiguity of like, "Well, what's going to happen?" And certainly as he gets older, he does develop more of a kind of like he has assistants [00:38:50] and-

Michael: Mm-hmm ...

Alice: you know, he, uh- Yeah,

Michael: he has a, he, he has a crew around the Matthew Perry enterprise, right?

Alice: Exactly. Um- And it, it's easier for somebody with that kind of wound to [00:39:00] just employ people to look after him because you, you go, the, you can just basically bribe them to be around you.

Michael: Right, right, right. You just bring them on. Exactly. No, [00:39:10] you're part of, you're, you're, you're, you're on the staff, uh, you know, part of the crew. And then that, that raises questions of trust and can reinforce the questions of, of loneliness and abandonment. I will say- Mm-hmm ... and this is sort [00:39:20] of related, w- another sort of telling moment for the memoir to me was when he goes into business with his sponsor, Earl H.,

and they are [00:39:30] interested in like building out sober houses. I think they're calling them Perry Houses. One, I feel like, you know, if for anybody familiar with, um, the [00:39:40] traditions in AA, that is a, a, a kind of professionalizing. But even more than that, that, that... he's, he's close to a man there [00:39:50] who is his sponsor, I think it...

And then he, then he goes into business with him and, and there's a falling out in a way there was s- be- between [00:40:00] them because the business doesn't go well. It's a, it's a sort of corrupting of that relationship that I think, um, it, [00:40:10] it, it, it, it stood out to me as, as, one, dangerous, but two, emblematic of this bigger problem of, what does my relationship with [00:40:20] other men look like, and, and people who I trust and am close to?

And, you know, it almost like set in motion what looks to me almost like a s- a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mm-hmm. Um, all right, [00:40:30] what do you have as the fifth, fifth thing you love about Matthew Perry?

Alice: My fifth thing is actually probably a little bit controversial because I have seen a lot of discourse online, uh, kind of [00:40:40] from other people of my generation sort of deliberately misunderstanding this.

But, um, I love his sense of humor in his memoir. Mm. Especially, you know, I think that there was [00:40:50] a, from what I can see, there's a bit of critique about, you know, the way that he interacts with women- Yeah ... the way that he talks about things, and I think that is [00:41:00] absolutely valid. I think criticizing the way he talks about women, please.

I think he's a cad. He- Yeah ... you know- Yeah ... is [00:41:10] Um, very much sporting that, of course, I, I brought up Dax Shepard before. He's also getting a lot of flack for this kind of tone at the moment. But, uh, yeah, like that [00:41:20] kind of, um, self-deprecating, very, um, sar- sarcastic's not the word, but like laced with [00:41:30] irony, like dripping with irony.

Yeah. Just like, ugh, it's, yeah, eye-rolling humor that I think is not very generous to one's [00:41:40] self. I really like that. I think that's kind of like a common way that people who have been through horrible, horrible things communicate.

Michael: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Alice: There's a [00:41:50] honesty in it. And I found it familiar. I, I thought it was- Yeah

probably one of the things I enjoyed most about the memoir. And then, you know, I, I understand why people don't like it. It's not something that I think a [00:42:00] healthy person does

Michael: Yeah,

Alice: right, right. Totally ... necessarily. Um, I think it's somebody who's wor- had a lot of therapy, but, you know, that's okay.

Archival: And it may be day [00:42:10] seven of the pain, but it was also day 10 of no movement, if you catch my drift.

I hadn't taken a shit in 10 days. There. There's [00:42:20] the drift.

Michael: Uh, awesome. All right. Um, let's go ahead and recap. So number one, you said a committed actor. I really like that. Uh, number two, I said offered [00:42:30] himself up as a case study. He essentially donated himself to science. Uh, number three, what did you say? It was something sort of in the functional category in

Alice: a way?

We've talked about He had no memory of [00:42:40] filming three seasons of Friends, and we can't tell.

Michael: Yeah, that's right. Uh, number four, I talked a little bit about his relationships with other men. And [00:42:50] number five-

Alice: His sense of humor in, in, in his memoir

Michael: Okay, let's take a break[00:43:00]

Category three, one love. In this category, Alice and I will each choose one word or phrase that characterizes this person's loving relationships. First, we [00:43:10] will review, uh, the data. So he was never married and no kids. Um, came very close. There, uh, he proposed at one point and was [00:43:20] in, I forget her name, um, but was committed to somebody.

But, uh, Matthew Perry was alone in a big way, uh, in terms of his loving relationships. Some pretty [00:43:30] marquee girlfriends, though. Made out with Gwyneth Paltrow at one point. You mentioned Julia Roberts. Um, there's a number of other women discussed in the memoir. You know, he's active for [00:43:40] sure. I thought it was also pretty revealing how he talked about early experiences being impotent.

Um, you know, sort of goes back to my per- previous point about sort of case [00:43:50] study. He is trying to give the reader some information that he thinks is valuable. So, uh, all right. What did... Do you wanna lead here? Do you got something?

Alice: Sure. [00:44:00] Mine's not very eloquent, but I can justify it. Um, I think that his love could be represented as a strong [00:44:10] magnet.

Yeah. What I mean is one of those magnets that, you know, you sometimes buy in, uh, I don't know, um, hardware shops. Mm-hmm. The ones that are so [00:44:20] strong that if you bring them even remotely close to each other with the opposing polarities, they pulled together really quickly. And then if [00:44:30] you flip it round, they repel each other with equal strength and, you know, shoot off as quickly as possible.

I think that he's like [00:44:40] that. I think that he attracted people with an incredible amount of strength because he is a charismatic, funny, uh, endearing person, [00:44:50] who's obviously very intelligent. He's gorgeous as well, you know, and, and, and certainly, you know, as you just mentioned, pulled all these women. So he [00:45:00] attracts strongly, and then he repels in equal force because he can't stay attached to these people.

Michael: I think that's a- another characteristic [00:45:10] of addicts, is that they run to extremes, and I think that he does. I think that's really astute. I think that he clearly has an ability to, [00:45:20] you know, be an attractive and repellent force and flip that switch real quickly. And some of it, obviously, is I think very tied up in his [00:45:30] inner struggles.

Um, which is, I mean, I think that, which is a little bit where I went. I was initially gonna say cart before the horse. I do think that this is a guy who never [00:45:40] really learned how to love himself, and therefore struggled to remain in committed relationships. And, and I'm not sure he had, you know, if he was [00:45:50] constitutionally capable of it.

I ended up going in, I don't know if I can justify this one or not, but, um, this is gonna sound so nerdy. I'm gonna get nerdy. [00:46:00] I, uh... Do you know what a non-Newtonian fluid is? I did not know this phrase. It's, like, you're not supposed to. It's just, like, eighth grade

Alice: science. I've heard of it.

Michael: A [00:46:10] fluid whose viscosity changes depending on how you stress it.

If you put your hand in there, it, all the cornstarch would sort of seize up, and it'd feel like a [00:46:20] solid. Mm-hmm. But then as soon as you relaxed your fingers, it would behave like a liquid again. And I, uh, I [00:46:30] think that that is a metaphor a little bit for how I see Matthew Perry's relationship with love overall.

There's a quality, I think, in terms of his [00:46:40] recovery, where it's like, "I got it. I'm seizing it," and then he relaxes his fingers, and it slips through his hands. And that process repeats over and over. It's like he's trying to [00:46:50] grab something that's ungrabbable, and as soon as he relax it, it, it becomes something else.

Uh, I, maybe it's not the perfect metaphor for, uh, his relationships, but [00:47:00] I, I think I, I liked the idea that- That love is fluid, that love is a verb, that love is a channel, and that it is not [00:47:10] a noun. It's not something static. It's not something you get and get to hang onto. It's something that has to flow through you like a fluid.

Um, and [00:47:20] I, I think that he his, his love is a non-Newtonian fluid. So-

Alice: I like it. I like it ... end

Michael: of, end of science. I promise I won't do that again. I,

Alice: I think that that [00:47:30] works really well, especially considering it's also a bit gloopy, and I feel like-

Michael: Yeah. ...

Alice: how I feel when I think about all of this.

Michael: All right.

Let's do it. Category four, net worth. In [00:47:40] this category, we will guess the net worth, and the results are sourced from the website celebritynetworth.com. Take that for what it's worth. It, uh... We will write down our numbers ahead of time [00:47:50] before we reveal, and finally, we will place Matthew Perry on the Famous and Gravy net worth leaderboard.

Okay. Alice wrote down 40 million.

Alice: And Michael wrote down [00:48:00] 80 million, double my number.

Michael: Uh, w- at the time of his death in October '23, Matthew Perry had an estimated net worth of 120 [00:48:10] million. I guess I'm closer. Um- Oh, my goodness. No way ... I think the residuals were pretty big from Friends. I'm not surprised- No, that's true

that this crosses the 120 mark, but [00:48:20] wow. Wow, that's a lot of money. Um, you know, I, he also did have some failed ventures and did... I mean, w- you know, we're only talking about, or I only talked about Friends. You mentioned it [00:48:30] earlier. He's in some, some successful movies too. Yeah, I know. All right. Uh, so let's place him on the Famous and Gravy net worth leaderboard.

At $120 million, he's at a [00:48:40] table all by himself. He's in between, uh... This puts him at number, let's see, position 17 on the Famous and Gravy- Mm ... net worth leaderboard. He's [00:48:50] right below Joan Rivers, who had 150 million. Uh, Joan Rivers and John Hughes were at 150 million, and he's above Roger Moore, uh, who [00:49:00] had 110 million.

So Matthew Perry, well done. Uh, didn't solve the problem, but wow, that is... I mean, I- I- if, if anything, that tells me [00:49:10] Well, again, m- caveats around our sources here. But if anything, that, that does... I, I think one lesson of [00:49:20] this is that he was a TV star on one of the most successful TV shows of all time at a moment when TV was important, [00:49:30] and that, that...

It's sort of like he's at peak network TV and- Mm-hmm ... a peak show. So the stars did align for him, uh, in, in, [00:49:40] in that way.

Alice: Absolutely.

Michael: But I mean- Absolutely ... if, if only, uh, y- but it also underlines the, the point we've been making throughout. Okay, uh, category [00:49:50] five, uh, Malkovich Malkovich or Tiny Trophy. So the way this category works is you get a choice.

You can either choose some small accolade or, uh, award you'd like to [00:50:00] give him, or, uh, you can choose what we're calling a Malkovich Malkovich moment. This is named after the movie Being John Malkovich, in which, uh, people take a little portal [00:50:10] into John Malkovich's mind to have a front row seat to his experiences.

Uh, do you have something here?

Alice: I mentioned earlier that he was in the pilot for, um, [00:50:20] Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip. He was also in The West Wing, my favorite TV show. And he played a character called Joe Quincy, and he was really [00:50:30] good. And I love The West Wing. It's up there for me with CSI

Michael: You know, I've never binged The West Wing.

I love it every time I watch it, and I keep... [00:50:40] I think I was really ready to go back and re-watch it, and then I've gotten a little tired of the American presidency, and I just don't think I could do it now. [00:50:50] Um- Oh,

Alice: but it's, it's, it's good though because you're like, "Oh, this is what it could be like."

Michael: This is what...

Yeah. I, I This is

Alice: what we could have.

Michael: Th- that is also painful, Alice. I know.

Alice: I know. [00:51:00]

Michael: But, uh, but you know what? Maybe I need to, like, give some oxygen to that fantasy. These fantasies are important. And I'm, I am an Aaron Sorkin fan. I mean, probably my favorite movie [00:51:10] from the 21st century is The Social Network.

Mm. I think, um, I think Sorkin's awesome, so, um, excellent. I love that cameo. Okay. Mm-hmm. I went with a, uh, [00:51:20] a, a Malkovich moment. The... He tells a story. So he's a tennis stud. Um, he tells a story of- What's

Alice: a tennis stud, by the way? Oh,

Michael: just a guy who's a great tennis [00:51:30] player. Just, like, somebody who's very tennis...

Oh. But it's sort of like... It is a kinda type though. Oh, you know, somebody who can pull off the short shorts and all whites and like- You got it. You got it. Yeah ... you know, look sexy on a tennis court. Mm-hmm. So he is [00:51:40] that. Um, and he tells a story of playing... And, and he's, he's very good, and he's got a very powerful serve.

And he has a meet your hero [00:51:50] story where he is playing, it sounds like at some event, with, um, Chevy Chase.

Archival: I have my partner in the ad court, and on the opposite side [00:52:00] is Chevy. I toss up the ball, bring my racket around my back, hammer the tennis ball as hard as possible, and watch in horror [00:52:10] as instead of it spearing across the court to Chevy's partner, it goes directly straight, and it's heading for Chevy Chase.

Mr. [00:52:20] Chase had 0.412 seconds to get out of the way. Mr. Chase did not get out of the way. More precisely, [00:52:30] his testicles didn't get out of the way. I have just served something close to a professional speed serve right into his Chevy Chases, [00:52:40] if you know what I mean.

Michael: In a cosmic sense, I feel like Chevy Chase kinda deserves this, and I'm glad Matthew Perry d- I wonder if he reflected back on this moment.

Anyway, I [00:52:50] think that there's a lot of emotions tied up, uh, in him, you know, hurting Chevy Chase with a tennis ball. Uh, and so that's my Malkovich moment. Um, so, [00:53:00] uh, I thought I'd need to share that. This is in the memoir. He did... It's, it's one of my favorite moments from the

Alice: memoir. Yeah, this is in the memoir.

I had omitted this part from my mind, to be honest.

Michael: I [00:53:10] just wanna picture the whole thing. I'm sorry. I guess maybe I watched too many America's Funniest Home Videos growing up. It's still funny when somebody gets racked. I c- I can't, I can't help but giggle. [00:53:20] Okay. Let's take one more break Category six, words to live by.

In this category, we each choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was [00:53:30] said about them. Uh, I've got two here, and I might offer them both up because they're... You know, I know there's one quote, but I feel like we've got [00:53:40] time for two. Um, this is something that came up earlier.

He- That it is sort of a reflection of the Jim Carrey quote. He said, "I think you have to have all of your [00:53:50] dreams come true to realize they're the wrong dreams." I love that quote. Um, I actually can [00:54:00] look at where I'm at in life, Alice, and a lot of my dreams have come true. I wanted to have a career in podcasting.

I wanted to, you [00:54:10] know, achieve a high education. I wanted to be a homeowner in a city I loved. I wanted to have a family. Those things have come true for me, and don't get me wrong, they are in [00:54:20] many ways fulfilling. But I think the question of what is the wrong dream is really important because the great question [00:54:30] is: Where am I useful?

What is my purpose? How do I give back? How do I become a non-Newtonian fluid? Uh, or I don't know if that's the right, [00:54:40] the right phrase to use, but, um, I, I do think that a lot of people who become famous, a lot of people who become wealthy, a lot of people who [00:54:50] experience success have something like this to say.

I think it's eloquently put. "I think you have to have all of your dreams come true to realize they're the wrong [00:55:00] dreams." And there's almost no better example than Matthew Perry.

Alice: Absolutely. Absolutely. S- Somebody asked me the other day why I'm not writing anymore, and I was like, "Well, I am, just in my head, [00:55:10] like, when I'm not talking to anyone, you know, just daydreaming."

And they were like, "Well, are you gonna write again?" And I was like, "Well, once I get over my issues around it, like specifically the constant, [00:55:20] uh, lack of any sense of achievement when I do anything." Like when I start doing it again for just, like, because I need to do it, because it's something that I [00:55:30] need for myself.

I just, I w- I was just doing, like, academics, writing, competitions, like writing for money, writing for m- Like, it [00:55:40] just never ended, and I would just... I, it got to the point where I was, like, s- halfway through a PhD, and I just felt nothing. I was numb. I was... I just... [00:55:50] Nothing was going in, and I realized it was just never going to end.

Michael: What do you have for this category, for words to live by?

Alice: The one [00:56:00] I highlighted, because I think it's a, a nice sort of 360 to what we were talking about, um, earlier, is, um: "When I die, I don't want friends to be the [00:56:10] first thing that's mentioned. I want helping others to be the first thing that's mentioned."

Michael: Yeah. I saw that, too. Um, I, uh- [00:56:20] I, I mean, I do think I- what I hear in that is a little bit of connection with head to heart. I think he has gotten the education. I think [00:56:30] he knows what he's supposed to do. I think it does not bear out in his behavior, and I, I think that there was a, there was a, there was some wall [00:56:40] between his head and his soul, um, that didn't allow him to, to, to, to put that into action sufficiently- Mm-hmm

somehow. But I, I, I also, [00:56:50] I have a lot of sympathy 'cause I can see why he thought he was living that principle. Yeah. You know? Um, okay, let's move on. [00:57:00] Category seven, man in the mirror. This category asks a fairly simple question: Did this person like their reflection, yes or no? This is not a question about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus [00:57:10] self-judgment.

I actually find this one a little bit more interesting than I initially thought I might. I, because, you know, I, I've mentioned it a few times in this conversation, [00:57:20] he's a face worth studying somehow. He's got a, he's got a look. There's something about him that is real star power in terms of, [00:57:30] gosh, our eyes are just drawn.

That it's... Some of it is, you know, he's gorgeous. He's conventionally handsome, but some of it's more than that, and it's, it's ineffable that [00:57:40] way. Mm-hmm. Um, a- and, and, and I think for him, dangerous. So I'm, I'm still going that no, he doesn't like his reflection, but I, I, I, I, I lingered [00:57:50] on it a little longer than- Mm-hmm

I thought I might.

Alice: Yeah. I play this, I play this game with my boyfriend where we, we, it's called Actor or Movie Star.

Michael: Oh, really? [00:58:00]

Alice: Yeah. So what? It's where we go through, you know, as many actors as we can name, and we determine if we think that they are just an actor or if they are a movie [00:58:10] star. And obviously, it's easy for the, you know, the actors from the past because we've already filtered them out.

It's like the, you know, the literary cannon. We've [00:58:20] already determined that some books are better than other books and yada, yada. Right, right. But the people that are currently acting now, we're trying to be like, "Oh, no, I think this person's a movie star, not just an [00:58:30] actor." So Tom Cruise is a movie star, right?

Michael: Right, right,

Alice: right, right. Et cetera. But it can get, like, a kind of obscure. Like Michael B. Jordan, I think, is a movie star. I agree. Do you know what I mean?

Michael: [00:58:40] Yeah, yeah,

Alice: yeah. But then there's other people that are just actors. I think that Matthew Perry, if he'd been, uh, in a different category, like, I feel like he's, uh, [00:58:50] because comedy often doesn't get taken seriously, but I do think he's like a Fred Astaire type, right?

Yeah. So he's a movie star- Yeah ... ultimately- Yeah ... because he's so charismatic. He's delightful [00:59:00] to watch on screen. You root for him even when he's doing silly things, and, um, yeah, that's, that's something that is very difficult to fake- Mm-hmm ... ultimately. [00:59:10] And, um, I think that that makes me think... I mean, I do think that he- I think he did see the good in himself.

Like, fundamentally, he was [00:59:20] aware of what his talents were, and his talents were that he was funny and good-looking and good at acting, you know? And he was hyper-aware of those things and used them, [00:59:30] almost exploited them.

Michael: Hmm.

Alice: But then he had this, like, deep, deep problem where he thought that without that, there was nothing else redeeming about [00:59:40] himself.

Michael: Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah. I mean,

Alice: I've,

Michael: I've thought of this category historically about, um, in, in terms of, uh, self-confidence versus [00:59:50] self-judgment. But I mean, to hear you talk about it, it, it, it's also on some level about self-awareness, and I do think he is on... He is more [01:00:00] self-aware than I might have thought.

I also think that the fundamental symptom of addiction is denial, uh, and [01:00:10] self-denial. Yes. And that, and that there is no, you know, it, it's very hard to, to do the honest appraisal in solitude. Yeah. And he is, he [01:00:20] is trapped in a kind of lonely state. So-

Alice: I-

Michael: Yeah ...

Alice: I think a lot of high-functioning addicts have this combo, where they are highly intelligent and they are [01:00:30] deeply self-aware, but the self-awareness actually is the, is the deceptive aspect of it.

Michael: Mm-hmm.

Alice: Because they believe that they are in control of it. Their addiction [01:00:40] becomes, like, a little friend, like a little secret that they have.

Michael: Yeah.

Alice: That only they really fully understand, and nobody else will quite get it. Yeah. Because they're... It's, it's this, it's this exceptionalism [01:00:50] thing that a lot of people have where they go, "Oh, I'm a bit different because I'm not quite that type of alcoholic," or, "I'm not quite that type of drug addict.

I [01:01:00] just, uh, I have my own rules and, like, this is what I need to do to function, and I'm totally in control of myself." And in reality, that's obviously BS and we're all the same. [01:01:10] But-

Michael: Well, yes. But I do- I will say, to hear you talk about that does bring me back to your one love word and the sort of polarity, you know- Mm-hmm

the magnetism and the repellent quality, because I [01:01:20] do think that if you believe that, you know, you're carrying around a secret, a sort of mystery, and that can be enticing. That can be part of that, you know, [01:01:30] attractive force. People, you know, are drawn to mystery. Um, so I do think it's tied up with his sex appeal on some level, you know?

Alice: Um- 100%. Yeah. 100%. But then also if, [01:01:40] if that person then gets too close and that threatens the secret-

Michael: You flip the switch. Yeah.

Alice: Exactly. And, and,

Michael: and show ugliness or something, right? Or,

Alice: or- [01:01:50] 100%. Yeah. 100%. Like, I, I deeply believe that. I thought, "Well, the reason these people want to be around me is because I'm, like, a certain body weight and I look a certain way.

If I [01:02:00] relax around them, I might gain weight, and then they won't want me anymore." Right. "So I have to keep them yea close, but no closer, because I still need to, like, retreat back into my [01:02:10] mental health problem-

Michael: Yeah ...

Alice: to stay in control." And ultimately, you can't have a functional relationship in a dynamic like that, where you're choosing- [01:02:20] You know, the secret over a real person

Michael: And where, well- It's creepy

and, and then I think to the topic of addiction, where you're obsessed with m- manage- managing yourself and managing- [01:02:30] Exactly ... that level of control, and that, and that's what, that's, that's what, you know, that becomes- Yeah ... unmanageable fundamentally. Yeah. Um, all right. Uh, [01:02:40] let's move on. Category eight, cocktail, coffee, or cannabis.

This is always a problematic category when you're talking about an addict or alcoholic, but the question we ask is which one would we most want to do [01:02:50] with our dead celebrity? I, I mean, I had to go coffee. I'm sorry. Like, but I, I, I honestly, I almost wanna have an afterlife [01:03:00] debrief with Matthew Perry. I, you know, and I, because this is a, a fantasy category where we get to make up a scene, the scene I wanna actually have [01:03:10] exists somewhere in the ether, somewhere in the universe, somewhere where, you know, souls can drink coffee on a-

on a, you know, foreign planet or something. I, [01:03:20] I, I would, I would, after he's, you know, grieved his passing, I, I would like to hear him try to put into [01:03:30] words what'd you miss here? What'd you... You missed something here. Mm. Where, where... You know, m- maybe there is no answer to this. Maybe this whole thing is unanswerable, [01:03:40] but I am, if I were to have a conversation with him, it, it...

'Cause, 'cause th- this comes up in my life a lot, actually, Alice. It's something I've been talking [01:03:50] more- Mm ... and more about the show, that there are, there are some people where I do feel like there's nothing left on the table in terms of, um- Mm ... of connection, [01:04:00] and, and, and, and, and seeing them who, for who they are, and that can be fleeting.

But there are other people where it does feel like they're carrying around a mystery [01:04:10] that I don't- Mm ... necessarily need to know about, but I want to know that they know about it. And so I- Sure ... I do see the, like, in him, that, that I'm not [01:04:20] letting go of something- Yeah ... you know, uh, deep, deep, deep inside. And, and, and as a nosy person, I'd like to know more about that.

And as- Mm-hmm ... [01:04:30] somebody who wants to learn from that, you know, cautionary tale, I'd like to know more about that. Uh, so that's what I went with. Right. Coffee in the afterlife was a little [01:04:40] bit of a cheat, but, um, what about you? What'd you think about here?

Alice: I'm gonna be annoying, and I'm gonna... Can I ask two provocative follow-up questions?

Michael: Please.

Alice: Do you think [01:04:50] that you would, during this conversation, be able to remain objective, or do you s- do you, do you think there's any possibility that you might be compelled by his [01:05:00] charisma into believing him in, like, another, another f- you know, untruth potentially? And also, are we not kind [01:05:10] of falling a little bit into the trap of like, "Oh, well, if, if only I could talk to him, I'm sure I could, you know, help him or save him."

I'm sure that's how everybody felt,

Michael: you know? Th- no, that, [01:05:20] the, two great questions. Two great questions. And I'm actually, I, I'm going a funny direction with the first one, and I think it relates [01:05:30] There, there are, I, you know, I get on a lot of Zoom calls these days, and I meet people in person. I also still have a fair amount of space [01:05:40] in my life for phone calls, and something I've come to value about a, a, a phone call is that I only get somebody's voice.

Mm-hmm. And when I [01:05:50] only get somebody's voice, I don't feel like I'm distracted by their mannerisms and by their appearance- Mm-hmm ... and that I've [01:06:00] got a little bit more of a direct pipeline into their humanity, so to the extent that I would want to not be distracted by his charisma, [01:06:10] actually this would be a better conversation if it were audio only, and if it were over the phone.

To your second point, [01:06:20] you know, a savior complex, yeah, I wanna save everybody. Uh, and it's a good, it's a good reminder that that is a little bit my, um, [01:06:30] ambition for the conversation I'm en- envisioning is that, like, ultimately I think I'm the guy who could've kept Matthew Perry alive, and if that's not ego, I don't know what [01:06:40] is.

So I, I, I think if somebody were to tell me, "Just don't do that before this phone call, Michael," then, uh, then it [01:06:50] would be a, it'd be a, a conversation I could learn a lot from, but it does require those- Mm-hmm ... protective measures. It, it requires [01:07:00] me getting my ego out of the way first, and then I think, and then maybe, maybe it is a phone call instead of an in-person conversation.

Mm-hmm. Uh, [01:07:10] does that answer?

Alice: That's a great answer. Yeah. It's a fantastic

Michael: answer. What, uh, what about you? Did you have a scene here for Coffee, Cocktail, Cannabis?

Alice: I just, I just don't think, I think I [01:07:20] know myself too well. I don't think I should have a conversation with him.

No, I don't think so. I think the problem is, is that we're [01:07:30] almost too similar, and by the end of it we would just have come to some sort of mutual agreement that ultimately, like, we're both way more special than everybody else gives us credit for, and that, you know-

Michael: You see a lot of [01:07:40] similarities. I, I, I think, um, that is- Yeah

interesting to, a- and so do I, you know? I mean, part of the- Mm-hmm ... reason there is this polarity around him is that, God, [01:07:50] something's really familiar here, right? Yes. I mean, this is- Yes. And this is certainly an idea that comes up in, you know, with, with resentments is that, you know, oftentimes when we [01:08:00] have a resentment against somebody, it's because we see ourselves in them, you know?

Yeah. And I don't know that I... I'm not saying I'm resentful against Matthew Perry, whatever. I never knew him, and I don't, I, [01:08:10] I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, that's not exactly what I'm saying, but there is a- a, a discomfort with, with something I recognize that I can't quite put my finger on. And it's [01:08:20] interesting- Mm-hmm

to hear you say that too. I, I mean, I think- Definitely ... we, we haven't quite called that out yet. For, for somebody who, you know, I liked Friends. It wasn't my number one show. The [01:08:30] movies were good. I, you know- Mm-hmm ... think he's a talented actor. But to the extent that there's a parasocial, uh, attraction here and rep- and repellent force, it is in the [01:08:40] public persona.

You know, it's outside of the roles. Mm-hmm. Um, huh. That's good. Okay. Well, I think we have arrived. The final category, no longer [01:08:50] called the Vanderbeek. We've retired that name because Jan- James Vanderbeek has sadly left us. Mm. But essentially what we want to do here is make a case that this person's life, [01:09:00] legacy, um, story, uh, gave to the stream of life, means something here, and that there is a case for an [01:09:10] upward staircase.

You know, for me, a lot of this does come back to y- y- you know, cautionary tale, but in a different kind of way. [01:09:20] I do think that he offered something up here, that he f- what- whatever his motivations were, I think that the good part of him [01:09:30] was trying to make as much of himself available for us to learn from as was humanly possible, and I think he is [01:09:40] doing it, you know, in the context of, um, a mental health crisis, uh, a, a pandemic of, you know, loneliness, um, and, and certainly no shortage of [01:09:50] addicts and alcoholics.

So I, I, I think he gave something here. Mm-hmm. I- I- which is, which is maybe... Uh, you know, i- [01:10:00] is it... I, I guess the, the, the hard part is, is it helpful? If you take his life to be a tragedy, then the question is, do you still believe there w- there is a solution? I [01:10:10] do. Um- Mm-hmm ... I think he had a hard time getting there, and I think that that's, that's where the tension is.

I, I don't think he got there, you know. But I, but I think his, his, his story [01:10:20] tells us something.

Alice: Yes. I, I hope that he'll also be, uh, I hope exemplary of an old age in Hollywood where [01:10:30] this kind of addiction was tolerated, overlooked, even encouraged.

Archival: Mm-hmm.

Alice: I don't think that, um, [01:10:40] well, I hope that, you know, we have higher standards now for the health and wellbeing of, you know, people who are in the [01:10:50] creative industries or indeed any sort of industry.

You know, this is not, if, if you see people struggling in order to maintain a certain type of performance, I think that, you know, we should just [01:11:00] absolutely... It has to be a no. It has to be like, "Go home." You know? Yeah. You cannot, we cannot, uh reward you [01:11:10] ultimately, because that's what it is Enable. Yeah Accolades enable.

Yeah. Yeah, it's- it's hard. It's a hard pill to swallow. But, you know, rewarding somebody or enabling them with- with money and fame, [01:11:20] we just, we- we shouldn't do it. We can't do it anymore.

Michael: I mean, I- I- I agree. I also do think, I bring this up on a lot of episodes lately, that [01:11:30] Derrick Thompson from Plain English had this point, uh, that I love.

He's like, "Celebrity is like this, uh, restaurant that has a one-star review, uh, but, like, [01:11:40] 5,000 reviews. Everybody seems to want to keep going there and eating at this restaurant even though everybody has reported back that the food is godawful and you shouldn't want into this [01:11:50] restaurant." That- that celebrity still sort of has that.

We should know better. There is nobody who has become famous who didn't say, "This is [01:12:00] really a troubled way to live ultimately." And Matthew Perry is very explicit about that. He even talks about this conversation with a friend who- Mm-hmm ... was [01:12:10] up for the role of Friends and- and was trying to impress upon him, "This doesn't solve the problem.

This doesn't answer it." And I think maybe we have to experience it to know. [01:12:20]

Archival: After Matthew died, I could start watching the show again because it wasn't about me. It w- it had to do with him for some reason. Hmm. And so I [01:12:30] have started watching Friends. Not started, like, season one and, you know. But there are marathons on, and I have spent, at times, [01:12:40] since he died, all day long watching the show.

You called me up, and you were raving about- Matthew ... about Matthew. Yes. And you were saying, "He's so funny." [01:12:50] And there was part of me I, like, uh, there was part of me that was jealous. Like, I was, I was, "Okay." Yeah. "He's... [01:13:00] I- I make you laugh pretty hard." And you were like, "No, you don't understand. This guy's really..."

No, I wasn't that bad. No, no, no. No, nah, you weren't. But, um, I'm just saying, it's, it's, [01:13:10] I think that's human. At the root of all that is, like, yeah, 'cause if everything goes well and everybody loves me, then I, then I will submit to loving [01:13:20] myself too. And I think that's, that's the problem. I mean- Yeah ... I think we, we think there's something shameful in loving yourself or there, you know, you're gonna be [01:13:30] an asshole if you do.

But that's not, that's not what love is. What people may not know about Matthew Perry is that he's probably one of the most sensitive people, as long as, as well [01:13:40] as being funny. I don't know what I'm gonna do not seeing you every single day and laughing. I mean, that's something I'm really gonna miss, 'cause I don't know of anyone who makes me [01:13:50] laugh as much.

So razor sharp and smart, and kind of, uh, when there's a sensitive moment, he'll make a joke, but really, he's a all softie. He's a [01:14:00] good guy

Michael: Speed round. Plugs for past shows

Alice: [01:14:10] I really have to highlight obviously our Anthony Bourdain episodes. I think we talked about very similar topics-

Michael: Yeah ... in

Alice: that episode. I was thinking about that one. [01:14:20] Mm-hmm. Yeah, very much.

Michael: Episode 119, Anthony Bourdain, Hungry Ghost. I think that's a perfect one. Um, I was actually thinking, uh, this is a very different direction.

[01:14:30] Episode 108, Gonzo Troubadour, Hunter S. Thompson. I'm really proud of that episode. And I think to the, uh, extent that this question of functional sort of lingers out there as [01:14:40] an idea, we get into that a little bit. Um, and it's a, it's a fan favorite. So, uh, episode 108, Gonzo Troubadour, Hunter W- Hunter Thompson.

[01:14:50] Here is a little preview of, uh, the next episode of Famous and Gravy. On the screen, he was both charismatic and curiosity-piquing, an actor who didn't let his characters [01:15:00] give emotional clues away easily And finally, Famous and Gravy listeners, we love hearing from you. If you wanna reach out with a comment, a question, or to participate in [01:15:10] our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com.

In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels. Famous and Gravy is created by Amit Kapoor [01:15:20] and me, Michael Osborne. Thank you so much to Alice Orr for joining us, uh, on this episode. Absolutely check out Podcast Review. This episode was produced by Jacob Weiss, with [01:15:30] original music by Kevin Strang.

Thanks. See you next [01:15:40] time.