129 Synapse Sparkler (Robin Williams)

Who was Robin Williams?

Robin Williams was one of the most beloved entertainers of the 20th century — a comedian, actor, and improviser whose genius seemed limitless. But behind the joy was a private darkness that few people close to him fully understood. In this episode of Famous & Gravy, we dig into the hidden chapters of Robin Williams' biography: his childhood, his complicated relationship with fame, his struggles with addiction and depression, and the question our show always asks — would you want that life? If you've ever wondered what Robin Williams was really like, this is the conversation.

FULL TRANSCRIPT of our episode:

Sara: [00:00:00] This is Famous and Gravy, biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at [00:00:10] hello@famousandgravy.com. Now, here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2014, age 63. He was a privileged son of a [00:00:20] Detroit auto executive who grew up chubby and lonesome.

Friend: Hmm, chubby, lonesome in Detroit.

Michael: His acting career reached a new height in 1987 [00:00:30] when he was nominated for his first Academy Award. No.

Friend: And again, the only person I think of in Michigan as an actor right away is Jeff [00:00:40] Daniels. But, uh, it's not- it's, uh, he's alive as of this recording.

Michael: His performances were sometimes criticized for having a mawkish sentimentality.[00:00:50]

Friend: Good Lord. In the '80s. You know

what? He's alive. Okay. But good in the '80s, sentimental. Uh- Is it Phil Hartman? No.

Michael: [00:01:00] Not Phil Hartman. Okay. Great guess. Okay. Great guess.

Friend: The guy that

Michael: played Snape. Alan Rickman? Yeah. Not Alan Rickman. Great guess. We've actually done an [00:01:10] episode of, on him. It's a good one. He was a, an admitted abuser of cocaine, which he also referred to as, quote, "Peruvian marching powder" and "the devil's [00:01:20] dandruff."

Friend: I was thinking Charlie Sheen when you said cocaine. But that's- He's

still alive ... yeah. Honestly, it sounds like Shia LaBeouf, even though he's alive. Um- It's not, not Shia LaBeouf. I know it's not Shia LaBeouf, but it [00:01:30] sounds like something Shia LaBeouf would say.

Michael: He was the voice of the Genie in Aladdin, and he won an Oscar in 1998 for Good Will Hunting.

Archival: This isn't Robin Williams, is it?

Friend: [00:01:40] Oh, Robin Williams.

Archival: Robin

Michael: Williams.

Friend: Robin Williams.

Michael: Are you- Today's dead celebrity is Robin Williams.

Archival: Come on, [00:01:50] Corky. Let him go. But it's that idea of- It's- ... you know, playing these characters and doing this. It's been a great combination, like a really good year to just push the envelope.

And [00:02:00] I think that's always what I wanna do- Yeah ... is to try different things and kind of always change perceptions. And, and change the rhythm. You can- Yeah, break up. It's, it is a rhythm. It's basically saying, "Okay, now we hit it, you know, there. And [00:02:10] then, you know, hit a little harder, and then back off. And then go berserk," like, you know, with the, the stand-up, which is just freeform.

That range really helps. For me, it's great. And you mentioned the other [00:02:20] part, having great friends and family- Yeah ... that just make life extraordinary, and a world to still go out and see and learn about- Yeah ... which is the most important of all.[00:02:30]

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne. And my name is Sarah Murphy. And on this show, we choose a [00:02:40] famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what does this celebrity's life [00:02:50] story teach us about ourselves?

Today, Robin Williams, died 2014, age 63. Sarah Murphy, welcome back to s- Famous [00:03:00] and Gravy. Thank you. Thanks for being here. Yes. It's, uh... So Sarah joined us on, uh, the Queen, Kobe Bryant, Waylon Jennings, Harper Lee, and now Robin Williams. That's [00:03:10] it. Yeah. Okay. Here's the question I have for you. When I suggested that you and I do Robin Williams, 'cause I was looking for a big name [00:03:20] as with the relaunch of the podcast- Mm-hmm

and the return to Famous and Gravy, and I was like, "There's only one Robin Williams," you were like, "I would love to do- Mm ... a Robin Williams episode." Where [00:03:30] was that coming from? Why was that an exciting idea for you?

Sara: I think because when I was little, he was so funny, my parents would let me watch him- Yeah

[00:03:40] even He was allowed-

Michael: Yeah,

Sara: yeah ... to be on the TV. Yeah. And it was important because it was so smart. Like, they- Yeah ... like, he could really make, like, my parents [00:03:50] laugh, my brothers laugh, and there was something about his humor-

Michael: Hmm ...

Sara: that I really related to, 'cause I felt like-

Michael: There was a childishness to it or something, or [00:04:00] like- No, like

Sara: there was like, like in the way that my brain works, not, I'm not saying it's as fast or as good or as anything, but I think that there

I can analyze [00:04:10] in, but my brain does not typically operate like an outline. Like, it's more about, um, I don't know, kind of a funnel, or even-

Michael: Yeah ... [00:04:20] like, like- A, a, a spiral that may go in one of two- Yeah, yeah ... directions or like- Or like a little,

Sara: like, centripetal acceleration. You know, like, like- Yeah, yeah ... you

There could be like a, um, a tangent, and it could be about [00:04:30] the sound of a word or the meaning of a word or- Yeah ... it's like those associations were just so fun to follow.

Archival: What do you gotta do basically is, you know, amendment commandment. Your call, [00:04:40] my man, you know? You know, there's a lot of people going, "You can put pork in the Constitution, too.

Put that in. Put the pork thing in. Do the pork thing, and I will stay." [00:04:50] So how about the governor, Schwarzenegger? How's that? As you know, it's very strange for me. Very happy. Uh, initially there are a lot of old Germans going, "It's so [00:05:00] easy." "You don't have to invade. You don't need armor or artillery. You just repeat phrases from movies."

Michael: I also kind of [00:05:10] encountered Robin Williams as, as a consumer of, you know, movies and TV as a child, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Before I was an adult. And there [00:05:20] is a certain sort of percentage of his catalog or IMDb or whatever- Mm-hmm ... that is, you know, kid, family oriented.

Sara: Yeah.

Michael: And so he was, he was on our TV a [00:05:30] lot.

Sara: Yeah, exactly. And then also because his humor was not like punchline, set it up- Yeah ... punchline, set it up- Yeah ... you know, it was like he was so- Oh, it was so like change, quick hit. Yes. Yeah. Like, you [00:05:40] can't- It was so- ... keep up ... fast. Yeah. And it was everything around you. So you kind of had like a heightened

Like, it made you pay attention because it, it helped ... You were trying to figure out where he was [00:05:50] gonna go next. And then the, I think in terms of like parasocial connection, like where our- Hmm ... lives crossed is his death was a week after I started my new job [00:06:00] in- Oh ... the Bay Area. Okay. Yeah. So I had just moved to the Bay, and- And he's such a Bay Area figure.

Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah. And it was a public [00:06:10] mourning- Yes ... when everybody, you know, like people- Still is. He- Yeah ... I mean, this is one of the

Michael: reasons he is a big figure to come out of the gate with for the first episode of The Return of Famous Indigravy is that- Yes ... the pain of [00:06:20] his death has, has lingered longer than most.

It's on- Yes ... the short list.

Sara: And I love, I guess the, the last thing is one of my favorite things [00:06:30] to do is to drive and see beautiful things. And when you come through the tunnel- Yeah, the Golden Gate ... that's the name it has on it, yeah. Yeah. Is that you, it's literally one of the most [00:06:40] postcard, picturesque views you'll ever have, and you emerge, you drive through these little rainbow-laden tunnels.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they've got- Yeah, they- ... kind of an arch

Michael: or rainbow arch, yeah ... yeah, they

Sara: look like it's, [00:06:50] like, suspenders of days old. Yeah. And you keep driving through. It's a Robin Williams

Michael: tunnel, right?

Sara: Yeah, and then- Yeah ... you have that beautiful view.

Michael: I agree wholeheartedly with all of that in terms of my [00:07:00] relationship with him.

Yeah. The only other piece I would add, when I discovered that he also, uh, had a problem with cocaine and was friends with Richard Pryor and was there the night [00:07:10] John Belushi died- Ah, yeah ... and that he was raunchy as all hell, that, for me as an adolescent, endeared him to me. It made him a more exciting [00:07:20] person.

Hell yeah. It was like, whoa, this kid-oriented guy who's doing family movies, to learn that he was wild and rebellious at a younger age, like, [00:07:30] made me feel a, I don't want to say proximity, but sort of like, "Oh, he's more complicated and interesting than I realized." Hey, everybody, it's Michael Osborne. Before we get started [00:07:40] today, this episode discusses Robin Williams, including the circumstances of his death.

So if that's not something you're in the right head space for today, [00:07:50] totally okay. Save it for another time or just pass on it altogether. Um, wanted to make sure that people had a heads-up that we do get into some pretty tricky territory, uh, in [00:08:00] this conversation. Okay, just wanted to say that before we get started.

Let's get to it. Category one, great in the first line of their obituary Robin [00:08:10] Williams, the comedian who evolved into the surprisingly nuanced Academy Award-winning actor, imbuing his performances with wild [00:08:20] inventiveness and a kind of manic energy, died on Monday at his home in Tiburon, California, north of San Francisco.

He was 63. Sarah Murphy, initial [00:08:30] reactions?

Sara: I am grateful that the, uh, suicide was nowhere referenced. I think that was probably the thing I gave them the most points for is that it wasn't, [00:08:40] you know, it, that statement is

Michael: what it is. It is apart from the, the suicide. It is. Actually, we should talk about that for a minute, because I- Mm-hmm

in a way I wanna talk about that [00:08:50] now. I did not, uh, uh, the story changed for me in terms of how I understood it. I, I, I had thought that, uh, [00:09:00] his suicide was caused by severe depression. I did not know much more than that. Mm. I think that is kind of true. And, but then I had learned, oh, he was diagnosed with something that, [00:09:10] uh, without having done the research, I think the story I got was that he didn't wanna live with a degenerative disease.

But then when I read the biography and learned [00:09:20] more about Lewy body dementia, it, it, it complicated the picture for me in a big way. I think you would still say, yes, he took his own life. [00:09:30] There's no question. But I also think that the way that disease acts to remove the self [00:09:40] and personhood from- Yes ... you know, the personality and the body- Mm-hmm

made it seem like, oh, I mean, was that... Maybe that's always true [00:09:50] when it comes- Mm ... to deaths of despair. Maybe that's true with alcoholism and, you know, people who drink themselves to death. Maybe that's true with severe depression. The disease is separate from the, the person. But [00:10:00] there was something about the way this particular disease was described that made it a little bit more for me about the hardware and the biology than the, [00:10:10] I, I guess I'd say the software and the sort of contents of dark thought.

That doesn't change anything necessarily, but it did complicate the picture of how I understood his death, so.

Sara: I [00:10:20] think it changes everything. I think that, because I think when we saw it, it was All the speculation about money problems, career frustration, like a show, you know, [00:10:30] like all these things. It's about the story

Michael: of him- Yeah, yeah

and where he was at age 63.

Sara: From a c- a cultural perspective, it's kind of funny to be like, "And then Bobcat Goldthwait said..." But

Archival: [00:10:40] it was...

Sara: But Bobcat Goldthwait said- Of all people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like, at the time, like I wanna be very clear, like he was hearing voices that were not real. Like there- Yeah

like the... [00:10:50] And so it was more about like the hallucinations and the- But

Michael: it also actually changes how I think of mental health diseases full stop. Oh, yeah. You [00:11:00] know? I mean, I, I think that, because I do think that there is a natural temptation to be resentful when somebody you care about, [00:11:10] even if it's a celebrity and it's a parasocial relationship, takes their life.

You, you- Yeah ... you are mad at them for that. And we have to learn how to separate [00:11:20] disease from the person, you know? Oh. And that's easier to say than do. Yeah. And I feel like I, the, the Robin Williams death brought that home for me in a new way. [00:11:30] Yeah. I've been thinking about this a lot.

Sara: Yeah. I think it was...

But I think it was more about, I was just so sad that hi- like, that he would have come to the end of his life [00:11:40] and, um, decided to end it. And then I guess what the Lewy body disease information gave me was better information about [00:11:50] what was sad. When I learned about Lewy body, um, dementia, I think I came to understand that it was a different fight that he was [00:12:00] fighting, and that he had been fighting it for so long.

And so- Yeah ... I think that was really hard to face, and to have seen him kind of withdraw and get a little [00:12:10] more insight into that, and like how he was watching himself lose what has to feel like the essence of himself. I mean, he just had such an [00:12:20] amazing mind, you

Michael: know? Right. What else is working for you here?

Let's stick on not- Yeah ... not mentioning suicide- No, no, no ... as a positive. What else is good here? Yeah.

Sara: I think it [00:12:30] is the comedian, but I might have like started there with kind of framing him in, within the comedy paradigm. You know, like I would have dropped, um, [00:12:40] surprisingly nuanced. I think that's, I think that- Really?

Michael: Yeah. You don't like that? Okay. No. I actually thought that was good because the- You didn't like that? Well, I liked it because- [00:12:50] He's so cartoonish, so- in some ways as a- Yeah ... impersonator and as a comedian.

Archival: Robin [00:13:00] Williams and we- Gracias, amigos. Robin Williams . Matas Stuart. Matas Stuart. amigos. Carnitas. Si, si, [00:13:10] si.

And we are going to try to make- ... today's simple supper. A delicious chili rubbed- ... skirt steak on tacos. And we're going to start- [00:13:20]

Michael: That does stand in contrast to what I think is actual nuance that he brings to some of his performances. [00:13:30] In fact, I actually... So I've been all over the place with this obit. At first I was like, "Nah, didn't quite do it."

But I've actually swung back because, and this'll come up [00:13:40] again, I, I think that he is famous for more than one thing. He is famous as a comedian. He is famous as a, as a Academy Award-winning actor.

Archival: They [00:13:50] believe they're destined for great things. Just like many of you, their eyes are full of hope, just like you.

Did they wait until it was too late to make from their lives even one iota of what they were [00:14:00] capable? Because you see, gentlemen, these boys are now fertilizing daffodils

Michael: And I think that they qualify that with surprisingly nuanced [00:14:10] is good. You know, wild inventiveness, that does speak to, you know- I do

Sara: love, yeah

Michael: I thought that there, there is a wild inventiveness to him and you don't know, he, he's [00:14:20] surprising. You don't know where he's coming from. And even the fact that they didn't say manic energy, but they said a kind of manic energy, the fact that they used colloquial [00:14:30] language to describe- Mm ... his energy, I felt like was kind of appropriate.

I think that this is one of the hardest first lines you can ever try to write because [00:14:40] it is hard to encapsulate all that he was and all that we knew him for. Mm. So be- because of the challenge, I was grading on a curve a little [00:14:50] bit here, even though I'm sort of with you that I'm not sure these are the perfect adjectives and this is the perfect vocabulary to, to get at the essence of him.

Sara: [00:15:00] Yeah, I think that, um, I, I didn't like the kind of manic 'cause there was a mania to it, but it just seemed, uh- You think that's

Michael: insulting?

Sara: Yeah. [00:15:10] I think about the deceased reading this and whether or not they would have any offense taken. And so I see like- Yeah, okay ... surprise- surprisingly would be a little bit of a [00:15:20] dig.

Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah. And kind of, yeah. Kind of manic is kind

Michael: of a dig. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah. I, there is an interpretation of this that's insulting. I doubt that wasn't- Yeah ... my experience of it, but I see the point. Okay, [00:15:30] I think we should just grade because there's so much more- Okay ... I want to talk about.

So what do you got for a score?

Sara: Okay. You're right, it's on a curve. So I'm gonna give it a seven. Yeah. I'll give it a seven.

Michael: Okay. [00:15:40] You wanted to give it a six? I could feel the six coming off of you. I just- Yeah, I was leaning towards six, but

Sara: I think you're right. I just think that like everybody, w- when I think of the level of shock-

Michael: Yeah

and

Sara: when I think of the fact that they [00:15:50] had

Michael: like every- Like how do you do this? Yes. Yeah, yeah. How do you write this, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Sara: Uh, like whatever this first sentence was has changed. You know? Yeah. Like they- Yeah ... I'm sure that there was some modulation, [00:16:00] and I think that that was probably a tough road to hoe.

So I think they didn't know exactly what to say. So, uh-

Michael: So you're grading on a curve, you give them the, a passing score, a seven. Yeah. Yeah, that's perfect. Yeah, yeah. I give it [00:16:10] an eight. Um- Okay ... so we're actually pretty close. I thought about a nine. I think you've actually talked me down, so you and I have talked each other into closer places, and I think we've said why.

I think that [00:16:20] this is hard, and I think it is accurate, and it is actually trying to cover a lot. Mm. In a way, that is a great segue into [00:16:30] my first thing I love about him. So let's move on. Okay. Category two, five things I love about you. So here, Sarah and I will develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person [00:16:40] was and how they lived.

My thing number one is unpin-down-able. Um, the manic energy is, I think, part of it. I've been [00:16:50] asking myself, what was he- Most. Was

he a actor most? Juilliard trained a- and at times did transform [00:17:00] into a role. Mm. Was he a comedian most? Was he a family actor most? Or even host, right? I mean, he hosted the, co-hosted the Academy Award once. [00:17:10] Definitely comic relief, you know? I mean- Yeah ... he, he, and, or, or even a guest on a talk show. I mean, uh, or like freaking Whose Line Is It Anyway?

Was he an [00:17:20] improv guy most? Yeah. Rick '

Archival: em, wreck 'em, wreck 'em, wreck 'em. Get that ball and really fight.

Bring it through. Okay.[00:17:30]

Michael: [00:17:40] He had talents in all of these different roles and domains. He, he was unquestionably, unbelievably talented, but what was he, what, what, what do you distill [00:17:50] his talent down into? I don't think he is pin-downable, and I like that. I like that not just because I like that about Robin Williams, but I feel like [00:18:00] the sort of self-reflective famous and gravy, um, comment on this is if you were to ask me why I love the people I love, I could give you some reasons.

I [00:18:10] could say sense of humor, or they're, you know, uh, good at tennis, or they, you know- Yeah ... or they, they have, uh, good taste in, uh, restaurants or whatever. [00:18:20] But it's never one thing. He's almost dancing across the brain. I, I... Um, you know what? I'm gonna try this analogy on you. Okay. Okay. I was thinking about the movie Inside Out [00:18:30] with the characters, which I love, and I also have a nerdy interest in neuroscience, and I was thinking about, okay, the amygdala.

This is where all the raw emotion is, [00:18:40] and Robin would go to this sort of tender, broken, unexpected, quiet figure place, right? Yeah. There's the insula, which is where there's visceral outrage, pompous authority [00:18:50] figures he would embody and, and bloviating politicians. Yeah. There's the prefrontal cortex, self-awareness, authority.

Like, I felt like that's what he's doing in his comedy, is like choosing a brain [00:19:00] region, doing some sort of personification of a character in that region, and then as soon as you're caught up with it in the audience, he moves on to something else. [00:19:10]

Archival: Believe that comedy can heal you. Praise the power. Praise the Jesus.

And Sears had a sale, this furniture went cheap. Oh, my [00:19:20] God. I'm okay now. I'm out here. Mom, I'm on TV. For my friends in San Francisco, how are you?[00:19:30]

That's a laid back place up there Do you believe? You know. [00:19:40] You know. Don't touch the back of the TV, it'll shock you across the room. Know the power, grab it now. Do you watch those, do you watch those guys on Sunday? Oh, yes sir. They got [00:19:50] some winners They're some win- Without mentioning any names, right? No, no, really, because they come to your door going, "Hello, here's your Watchtower."

"And I'd like to say hello to you. Hare Krishna, Hare [00:20:00] Rama." "But I don't want the book." "Take the book, it's free."

Michael: Take the- That's what the quickness was, is it was ADHD in a way Yeah. But performed. It relates to this [00:20:10] idea of him being unpin-down-able. That's a lot. Why don't you take number two?

Sara: I think, uh, I, I was trying to decide which flows best from the, what you have just said, but I think [00:20:20] part of it is that I think his education was a friend.

Like, you, you could see him interact with all that he had learned, like that, that idea that [00:20:30] we, like, I am all that I have met is very true with him, and I just feel like he had classical literature and theater and, like, all [00:20:40] of this, like, kind of the Julliard of it all, and I think the risk that he presented in, like, performance was being too smart, in a sense.

You have to stay with your audience, and I think that there are ways [00:20:50] in which I th- like, you, I would never follow 100% of his references, but I think I could get most of them, and the ones I got, I loved. A- and I just think that there was something [00:21:00] that you could see in this person who was... Like, I feel like there are all these biographies and stories about him playing with toy soldiers alone- Yeah

[00:21:10] in a room upstairs, and, like, kind of the isolation of his childhood. But I think that, I feel like he had ideas and his mind as, like, a friend and a comfort, [00:21:20] and I, my dad had described education like that once. Like, that he just thought that if you were educated, that was there to imbue your life with meaning and opportunity [00:21:30] and more understanding, and the idea is that you're supposed to kinda keep on understanding things.

You know? I think

Michael: that's brilliant, Sarah. Yeah. And I just- And that's not

Sara: something I had thought about, I gotta say. Yeah. I aspire to have that, too. You [00:21:40] know? You do. That was why I was, and that's why I chose it, because I was like, my friend Michael is about to talk about, like, the parts of the brain, and we're gonna go deep into neuroscience, and they're gonna...

You geek, [00:21:50] yeah. I was like, "Here we go, Osborne. Let's roll with it." I

Michael: should've known you were gonna bring up the amygdala and the nucleus accumbens. Yeah, this is, this is where this is [00:22:00] gonna go. Yeah. And now we're

Sara: on video, so you can start, like, pulling out your models. Yeah, I got a little... I

Michael: kinda, I do need to have a little model of that, as it turns out, right here.[00:22:10]

If I can... Yeah, that'd be good. I think that's a awesome number two, and I think- Mm ... I've brought this up before in other conversations, but somebody once told me that the best measure of intelligence is somebody's sense of [00:22:20] humor. Yeah. And I've been trying to think about the intellect of Robin Williams, and I think that you paired it really well, in that he had- Mm-hmm

he was friends with his education. I think that's a really good way to [00:22:30] put it. Okay, I'll do a small one for number three. No repeat performances I actually, when I looked back at the Robin Williams catalog, I'm like, [00:22:40] "There's no sequels in here?" Yeah. That's awesome. And what it tells me is that there's a desire for originality.

Mm-hmm. Right? In an age right now where it feels like it's nothing but [00:22:50] sequels and re-imaginings of old properties, the fact that he was always on the lookout for a fresh script, whether it was a comedy or a drama or whatever it was- Mm-hmm ... I think it speaks to [00:23:00] his desire to do something, like, once and do it well, and then walk away.

Because Lord knows, and apparently there were offers for sequels that would've brought in [00:23:10] all kinds of money, and he was- Oh, yeah ... clearly not about that. So to the extent that it's a famous and greatly self-reflective point, I think there's also an attitude of taking risks and [00:23:20] trying to do something new every time.

I think that's what that's ultimately all about.

Sara: Okay.

Michael: Um,

Sara: all right, what do you got for number four? He had an examined life. Oh. So there was a quote where he [00:23:30] talks about that life is a cesspool of consciousness.

Michael: It's a little dark, but- But it was kind of this- Not exactly words to live by. Yes. This [00:23:40] is better in this category.

Yeah,

Sara: okay. Well, you said to take an angle, so here we are. Yeah.

Michael: Yeah, yeah. Well, so what does it mean, life is a cesspool of consciousness? Yeah. Well, he was just,

Sara: yeah, he was just talking [00:23:50] about, like, what there was to experience and what there was to enjoy and understand, and that it ultimately comes down to the people you know and serve and love, and then [00:24:00] there's a loving God and that's it.

And I think that- Hmm ... I, I think some of, I, you see a lot of, I think public celebrities who are more comfortable talking about these [00:24:10] types of things often have an addiction history. So I think, I think the 12 steps do teach in a sense- Yeah ... like, the, the, the idea of giving a testimony of something that, [00:24:20] like, you've experienced.

But I just think, and he talked about it. He was very humble about how his addiction was always with him and, yeah, that it was an active [00:24:30] threat at all times.

Archival: There's a voice, and it's a little, quiet voice that goes, "Jump." It's the same voice. It's the same voice going, "Just one." To talk about it as caused by [00:24:40] something, the, I know- It's not caused by anything, it's just there.

It's just, you know, it's latent, waits. It lay, you know, lays in wait and for the time when you think, "It's fine [00:24:50] now. I'm, I'm okay." And then, beep, and then the next thing you know it's not okay. Things not going so well.

Michael: Like, the way it goes is he was like a [00:25:00] cocaine maniac in the '70s. Mm-hmm. He was there the night John Belushi OD'd.

Yes. He had been in the hotel room. And he- That scared him into a period of sobriety.

Sara: Yes. Of- White wine only. [00:25:10] And he quit everything else. And he quit everything else. Like no 12 step, yeah.

Michael: But no 12-step stuff. And then he was essentially sober or certainly- Mm-hmm ... claimed sobriety. And then there was a [00:25:20] movie, The Big White, in Alaska, which- With Woody

Sara: Harrelson

Right,

Michael: which, who wouldn't relapse- Yeah ... under those circumstances? And he did, and it, and life deteriorated in the mid [00:25:30] 2000s, and then he checked into rehab, Hazelden, and became, from what it sounds like, enthusiastic about 12-step programs, and more than that, a spiritual pursuit. Which I [00:25:40] think- Yes ... what you're speaking to here.

Exactly. Which is at the heart of AA. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I, I had heard murmurings of his presence in 12-step rooms. Mm-hmm. And [00:25:50] by all accounts, there was a, a full wholehearted embracing of the principles and of the practices. And there was even I think stories of wayward [00:26:00] sponsees showing up at the Met or whatever.

Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. You know? And not even wayward sponsees, but like, I do think he was trying to give back in a meaningful way. Mm-hmm. I think this is [00:26:10] also a place where the, his Lewy body dementia, which was initially misdiagnosed as Parkinson's, interrupts what looked to me like probably a pretty [00:26:20] healthy 12-step program.

Mm. From what I can tell. Mm. Okay, I'll take number five, just to keep moving along. Okay. I'm gonna go on a real simple light one. Okay. Avid biker [00:26:30] I love that he loved his bicycle. Yeah. He was, had all kinds of bikes. He would ride all day long. I think that there's something beautiful [00:26:40] and carefree about riding on a bicycle, and I relate to it, I connect with it, and I love that about him.

Yeah. I love that that was his, like, go-to mode of exercise.

Sara: So- Well, he called it his [00:26:50] meditation, too. Yeah. So he would like ... Yeah. And, and 'cause he'd do, like, 40 miles. It wasn't just like- No. Yeah. It

Michael: wa- it wasn't 10 minutes and I'm good. Mm-mm. It was, like- Yeah ... a long journey. Did I tell you about [00:27:00] COVID, what I did during COVID?

No. With my bike? Oh, this is my favorite thing. This is dark. You'll appreciate this. So everybody's in lockdown and- Yeah ... but outside was [00:27:10] safe. I created a, I called it my apocalypse list. I would go to Spotify, and all my favorite horror movies- ... I was pulling from those soundtracks, and [00:27:20] I'd go on this long bike ride around downtown Austin, which was totally deserted, listening to my apocalypse list and picturing zombies out there.

It was great. It was the most [00:27:30] joyful bike ride. Not much to do with Robin Williams, but I do love the carefree experience of being on a bicycle. So- Oh, yeah ... that's where that's coming from. Okay, let's recap then. Okay. So number [00:27:40] one, I said unpin-down-able and dancing across the brain vis-a-vis Inside Out.

Number two ...

Sara: His education was a friend. His education

Michael: was a [00:27:50] friend. God, I love that one. Number three, I went with he never did a sequel, and striving for originality and taking risks. Number four, you said?

Sara: He lived an [00:28:00] examined life.

Michael: He lived an examined life. I liked it. And number five, the carefree experience of riding on a bicycle.

Yeah. That's a pretty damn good list. Okay. Let's take a break[00:28:10]

Okay. Category three, one love. In this category, we will each choose one word or [00:28:20] phrase that characterizes Robin Williams' loving relationships. First, we'll review the family life data. So three marriages. First one to Valerie in, uh, [00:28:30] 1978. Robin was 26 years old. They separated and divorced in 1988 when he was 36.

Wife number two, Marsha, they were married in 1989. [00:28:40] Robin was 37, and they divorced in 2010 when Robin was 58. It is worth saying that Marsha was initially the n- nanny for hi- [00:28:50] child number one, and that, there's a lot of pushback about how that relationship was initially characterized, like fell in love- Mm-hmm

with the nanny, but I... Or, or with the caretaker. Marsha was also [00:29:00] very much, like, a manager of Robin Williams, it sounds like. Yes. When they divorced in 2010, th- they, the way it's described is that after, I... [00:29:10] It was his, after his relapse, there was just been too much damage done to the relationship. Yeah. Yeah.

So then wife number three, Susan. This is in October 2011. Robin is age 60. They were still [00:29:20] married when he died at age 63. Mm-hmm. Three children. Zachary with first wife, Zelda and Cody with Marsha, wife number two. I struggled here. I've got a [00:29:30] metaphor. I don't know if it's the right one. I wrote gorillas in the mist.

And- Oh. All right. He's a hairy man. Oh, he is. Okay? So that's where the gorillas thing came from. Mm. And the mist is [00:29:40] about the picture is pretty cloudy for me. I thought about changing this category, Sarah, to love languages or something like that because- Hm.

Sara: I like one

Michael: love better. You[00:29:50]

do? Okay. All right. Well, then we- Love language... Uh, sorry. Love languages are kind of- No, that's a, no, no, it's the right call. It's the right call. I mean, only, only... I've been thinking, like, what was his... Here's why I, I thought about that. [00:30:00] Mm-hmm. How did he experience love? I think he's addicted to laughter, and I think probably words of affirmation is his love language, but I don't know.

Hm. I have a friend who grew [00:30:10] up with him, who went to his house once and said it was sh- striking to him how big and empty the house was. And- Hm ... you mentioned this earlier, there [00:30:20] are stories of him playing with toy soldiers and I'm sure doing voices with them at a young age. Mm-hmm. And that seems to be, for some people, [00:30:30] something that helps explain Robin Williams.

Mm-hmm. It's not obvious to me how he felt love, how he- Hm ... experienced love. I do think that there are definitely [00:30:40] the dopamine hits that come from a successful performance and definitely from stand-up comedy. And he and- Yeah ... Billy Crystal even talk about you get that laugh, and there's nothing in the [00:30:50] world like it.

Archival: Yes.

Michael: That's part of the reason there is a sort of, like, sad clown story we want to tell, that when he stopped being funny, that's when the depression kicked in. I [00:31:00] think that's inaccurate based on what we know about the disease. So it's misty for me. Gorillas in the mist.

Sara: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that's fair. I think that's fair.

Michael: What did you come up with [00:31:10] here?

Sara: I would say For A Time. I think I said something- For A Time ... I think I said something like this about somebody else. I [00:31:20] can't... But anyway, that, uh, oh, I think it was Wayland actually. Yeah. But I think I, when you listen to His former wives talk about him, like, [00:31:30] there was not an absence of respect.

So you hear Valerie say, "This just wasn't what I signed up for." Yeah,

Michael: something changed. Yeah, so we had one- The exigence [00:31:40] of fame in the entertainment industry. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and so- This is not what I had in mind. Yeah. Yeah,

Sara: and then, and Robin even says, "I was not... I could not be in LA." Like, that his- Oh, [00:31:50] yeah.

And I mean- Yeah, like- ...

Michael: drugs and sleeping around- Yeah ... and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. All

Sara: of that. But thinks that he was very grateful for the child they had and the life they had together, and you get the i- the [00:32:00] impression at least that they were able to make things work in the aftermath. And she actually has made public statements about the fact that from her perspective, he did not [00:32:10] cheat on her with the nanny.

So like, that, you know, that- Right. This is Valerie,

Michael: wife number one. Yeah, Valerie saying that, and Marsha- She's probably the most... This is what's interesting. In terms of- Yeah ... he's willing to talk to the press, Valerie, his [00:32:20] first wife, and his oldest son, Zak, seem willing if not reluctant to sit for an interview to talk about Robin.

Everybody else seems pretty [00:32:30] protective of- Yeah ... what they have to say and what they want to say.

Sara: Yeah. All three of them were interviewed for that... Is it Robin Williams: Inside the Mind? Yeah. [00:32:40] Yeah, so I think that was informative, and that was where she was saying, "I did not come out at the time to squelch the story," and if I had been her divorce lawyer, I'd have been like, "Don't you dare."

But [00:32:50] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I but he, she does in the aftermath say, "It was n- that was not the case. I don't want people thinking, like, he ran off with the nanny. He [00:33:00] was not some cliche in that way."

Archival: Yeah. And

Sara: then Marsha had this relationship already with his oldest son. She knew his life, like [00:33:10] he's moving on from his first marriage, and I think it's pretty natural that because it would be difficult for him to find people who would be interested in, or have some idea [00:33:20] that they knew the real him and were interested in him.

Yeah. Like, the nanny makes sense. Yeah, yeah. And like the nanny/assistant makes sense because they're already in the circle of trust. Like they, that, [00:33:30] that didn't necessarily shock me. And so then they have two kids. They have this time together, and then the relapse. And then Susan, they met at an Apple Store.

You know? Yeah. [00:33:40] Like they... A- and, and he did attend her AA meeting- Yes ... which is how they had the second encounter. And so they had that kind of 12-step relationship together. But his [00:33:50] second son I think gave a pretty revealing interview where he was like, "He was on the road for half the year, sometimes more, sometimes less."

And so I think there [00:34:00] was a difficulty to that. Yeah. And so I think you're right. I think that there was a lot of filling up his cup and feeling needed and, like, knowing that he could [00:34:10] help people fight fear. He said that was a stated goal. He wanted to, to help people overcome their fear and know some joy.

Mm-hmm. And I think he wanted that [00:34:20] connection- And I just, I look at his life in the same way you're like he's unpin-down-able. It is a miracle that the opportunities found him, [00:34:30] because his life could have been so different. You know? Like Mm. Yeah, yeah. He was, he was smart enough to do other things, and like if, if he'd decided to go for profit or something like that where- Right[00:34:40]

that would've been much more like what his, like the, his dad's friends' kids were doing. Yeah. Like, he really did take this path that was just so different, and it would've been [00:34:50] terrible if these opportunities had not found him.

Michael: Let's get to that. I think that's- Mm ... the next category. Category four, net worth.

In this category, we will guess the net worth. [00:35:00] Results are sourced from the website celebritynetworth.com. Take that for what it's worth. Sarah and I are gonna write down our numbers ahead of time before we reveal, and then we will place this person on the [00:35:10] Famous and Greedy net worth leaderboard. I will say it was educational for me to learn about his pathway to marquee A-list [00:35:20] celebrity.

Mm. That I, first of all, I did not know M- Mork & Mindy was from a Happy Days spinoff. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I had seen that. I had seen that. And then [00:35:30] I also did not know Mork was canceled unceremoniously, and that he was getting Hollywood parts and no box office hits. Popeye was [00:35:40] disappointing. Hu- Moscow on the Hudson was disappointing.

There's a- Yeah ... number of roles where it wasn't clear if he was miscast. Was he gonna be able to translate from TV to [00:35:50] movies? The first real success is Good Morning Vietnam- Mm ... which I was, I did not remember that he was nominated for an Academy Award for that. And then y- it's [00:36:00] still pretty checkered there for a while.

I mean, the thing- Yeah ... about his whole IMDb is it's interspersed with like success and duds. [00:36:10] That said, e- everybody seemed to universally recognize his talent for most of his life and keep expecting things. And there was a period of time where he was clear he [00:36:20] could command a pretty big paycheck. So I went- Yeah

with a particularly high number.

Sara: So the only reason I'm not going with that high of a number is that there were all those [00:36:30] rumors about there also being financial problems at the time of his death, and Susan didn't stay in the house, which I guess I can't- Mm ... tell how much of that is because he, she needed to if that [00:36:40] ended up being like one of the bigger assets or like, uh, how into that- Yeah

it would work. Yeah. I

Michael: mean, we'll see. Well, let's go ahead and reveal. Sarah Murphy- Okay ... wrote down 10 million. [00:36:50]

Sara: That's hilarious. This is the best Price Is Right episode ever. This is. I should have gone $1.

Michael: You might as well have gone $1.

Sara: And Mike Osborne wrote down 200 [00:37:00] million. Yeah.

Michael: Okay. Yeah. So orders of magnitude.

So according to celebritynetworth.com, Robin Williams, let's see, estimated net [00:37:10] worth approximately 50 million. There we go. Okay. So Lenny's closer. You're closer. And- But I- Yeah ... yeah, but I'm five times a quarter... Okay, you're right. [00:37:20] I don't know. Yeah. These numbers are meaningless to me, Sarah. I can't tell the difference between- Well, I'll tell you what.

Sara: And I learned from you on this because he didn't direct. He was an actor. He was a performer. That's a good point. Yeah. [00:37:30] And he actually did prefer ensemble roles, so. That's

Michael: true. There's no producer credits. Yeah. Okay.

Sara: Yeah. And even- Damn it. You should have pointed that out to me before I wrote down this stupid [00:37:40] number.

Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah. Well- And even Good Will Hunting, he took a pay cut to do it. Oh, yeah. Like it wasn't... Yeah, so like there, there- No, and there's

Michael: a lot of independent movies he supported- Yeah ... where he lent [00:37:50] himself, seemed like he was doing a solid to independent directors for a period of time. Yeah.

Okay. It's a much better number. Goddammit. All right. I said- Well, well done, Sarah Bowie, two million. Okay. [00:38:00] Let's place Robin Williams on the Famous Ingravie net worth leaderboard. So at 50 million he is in a tie with This is an interesting company. [00:38:10] Stan Lee and Bob Saget. Oh. So he's in the 36th percentile here, so- I like that he can talk about like-

so Stan Lee, Bob Saget- Yeah ... and Robin Williams. I don't know what to make of it. He can talk about

Sara: being an [00:38:20] extraterrestrial and, like, dirty comedy. And dirty comedy, I- And with a connection to San Francisco too. Like, uh, like, uh, Bob, Bob Saget had that same, uh-

Michael: Totally Yeah. That is actually interesting that he and Saget are there.

[00:38:30] I was thinking this about Saget as this episode was coming up, 'cause I think that there is, similar to the he was initially presented to me as a child as a kid-friendly [00:38:40] individual, and then I discover him to be a raunchy comedian. Bob Saget's a more exaggerated version of that. But I'm sure they'll have lots to talk about.

Okay. Robin Williams, Bob Saget, [00:38:50] and Stan Lee. 50 million, well done, Robin Williams. Yes. Let's move

Sara: on. Good working, good working.

Michael: Good working. All right. Category six, uh, this is a little bit of a wild card. It's Malkovich or the Tiny Trophy. In [00:39:00] this category, we either choose a trophy, an award, a cameo, or an impersonation, or we choose a moment, what we're calling a Malkovich moment, where you can zoom in and [00:39:10] have a front row seat to one of his experiences.

Why don't you lead us off here? What did you have for category five?

Sara: Well, so what I ultimately ended up going with [00:39:20] here is there is a scholarship at Julliard that he funded that- No way ... yeah, and that he... And it provided not just tuition, but it, [00:39:30] like, all expenses, so it was like- Holy cow ... yeah, so it was a situation where he- 'Cause he was sort

Michael: of a starving artist when he was at Julliard.

Yeah. I mean, he, like- And, and, yeah,

Sara: and I don't, I think he probably eventually got, like, an honorary degree or [00:39:40] something. But he didn't get- Finish ... he didn't finish, yeah. Yeah. And so, but- And he

Michael: was on, like, an advanced track that he was eventually, they asked- Yeah ... him to take the normal track or something, right?

Sara: Yeah. And the, yeah, he was on [00:39:50] an advanced track with Christopher Reeves. Yeah. That's how they met. But what I loved about this was that where I heard about it was because Jessica Chastain- Hmm ... like, an actress [00:40:00] who's really having a moment, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, is, um, well, uh, is having a decade. She-

Michael: Moments can be decades.

Sara: I'd love one, I'd, I'd love one of those [00:40:10] moments. She-

Michael: What, what I need is a moment that is basically the rest of

Sara: my life. If we could just, yeah. If we could just have a moment- ... that, [00:40:20] yeah. But she was a recipient. And so, like, she went on- No way ... she was able to go to Julliard because of the Robin Williams scholarship, and she was born in Sacramento, [00:40:30] so it was another, like, northern California- Yeah

talent who, like, goes to Julliard. And literally, if your only contribution to the arts was funding [00:40:40] Jessica Chastain's Julliard education, you've made a big dent, you know? Seriously. And so, um, but he was- That's a great one, Sarah ... he did that for year after year. So I loved that.

Michael: I went Malkovich [00:40:50] for this, and it's also related to Julliard, and it's also related to Christopher Reeves.

So those two- Hmm ... were super-duper tight There is a very [00:41:00] famous moment after Christopher Reeve's accident where he's paralyzed and he's in a state of total despair, and Robin Williams goes to visit him in the hospital [00:41:10] and apparently put on a mask and pretended to be a Russian proctologist and, like, marched in there and did some accent about, like, "Let's get in [00:41:20] there."

Yes. And, and, and caught him off guard, and R- Mm-hmm ... Christopher Reeve describes this as the first moment he laughed- Yeah ... after the accident. Yeah. And the moment where he [00:41:30] felt like there's something worth living for, 'cause he was in a state of, as one might imagine, incredible desperation being, being paralyzed.

Archival: He was the first one to show up down in [00:41:40] Virginia when I was really in trouble. He came here to Kessler one afternoon and just

Thank God I wear a seatbelt in this chair because I would've [00:41:50] fallen out laughing . It's really, in the middle of a tragedy like this, in the middle of recuperation You can still experience [00:42:00] genuine joy and laughter and love and Anybody who says life's not worth living is totally wrong. Totally wrong.

Michael: The reason that's my Malkovich [00:42:10] moment is that's the kind of moment that would scare the shit out of me, Sarah.

Oh, oh. If one of my best friends had been in an accident where they are paralyzed from the neck down and [00:42:20] I've gotta go into the hospital, how am I gonna do that? I mean, I do think that, you know, how am I gonna go in there? Humor for Robin Williams at times definitely looks like a [00:42:30] crutch and a thing he hides behind.

I think it is also his love language, and in this moment I think it's both. I just wanna know what is he telling himself as he's, "You know what? [00:42:40] Here's how I'm gonna do this. Here's how I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna go in there and see..." What, how conscious was the decision to say, "I wanna see if I can make my friend laugh," or was it totally impulsive?

Was it [00:42:50] just instinct? Was it intuition that led him into that moment? One way or another, I'd like to zoom in, and I guess I didn't describe this category. This is named after the movie [00:43:00] Being John Malkovich, where you can take a little portal into somebody's experience. That's the experience I wanna have.

It's a lesson for me, too, because I don't wanna be scared of somebody else's pain, ever. Yeah. Yeah. When it [00:43:10] comes to my friends, I don't wanna be scared of their pain.

Sara: It's also such foreshadowing to me, and just, like- Mm ... the idea that their lives were so [00:43:20] entwined. So Superman is paralyzed, so the only thing he really keeps is a really sharp mind until the end.

Mm. So his body fails him, but he keeps a [00:43:30] sharp mind.

Archival: Yeah.

Sara: And then Robin Williams, like, one of the fastest minds in the world-

Archival: Yeah ...

Sara: ultimately has his, like, brain turn on him. Yeah.

Michael: [00:43:40] You know? So, like- Yeah ... and, like- Yeah ... and but he's- Wow, that's a, that's some cosmic- Yeah ... stuff right there, Sarah And, and

Sara: they had this shared existence together, so the idea that they both [00:43:50] had that quality-

Michael: He's big, strong, and tall, and he's- Yeah

I'm sure Robin Williams is this- Yeah. Well, did somebody describe him as, like, a wild munchkin or something? There was something or manic munchkin. I forget what it was. [00:44:00] Well,

Sara: he would talk about how, like, amazing it was when he would go hang out with Christopher Reeve, and all these girls would be coming after Christopher Reeve, and then he goes, "And I would just hang out in case they got, like, less [00:44:10] ambitious."

I was like- ... do you, like, just Do you like short hairy men? Yeah, right.

Michael: I'm available if Christopher's done- I'd be like, "Oh- ... because I'll just- ... come [00:44:20] on over" ... I'll just sit here- Yeah. ... until somebody loses interest in him. I do have one Robin Williams celebrity sighting story from my sister. I think I'm remembering this right.

She's in New York. She steps into an [00:44:30] elevator. He's in there. The elevator's silent, and apparently he goes, "Don't say a word."[00:44:40]

Archival: That was

Michael: it. Which I think it's kinda perfect, uh, just so- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, all right. Let's take another break.[00:44:50]

Category six, Words to Live By. In [00:45:00] this category, we will each choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said about them. I went in a different direction than usual here, Sarah, because when I [00:45:10] was looking for great Robin Williams quotes, I didn't find a ton that I loved.

It didn't feel like words to live by stuff to me. Yeah. May- maybe you found something. What I did find [00:45:20] was I really like the biography by David Itzkoff, Robin, and so I was gonna read a little bit from that and then interpret it. So let me read, and I'm [00:45:30] paraphrasing a little bit, skipping here, but here's how it goes.

"Robin had never let the audience see his true self. Some part of him would be present in every role and stand-up set he would [00:45:40] play over the next 35 years, but in their totality, these things did not add up to him. The real Robin was a modest, almost inconspicuous man who never fully believed he [00:45:50] was worthy of the monumental fame, adulation, and accomplishments he would achieve.

He shared the authentic person at his core with considerable reluctance, but he [00:46:00] also felt obliged to give a sliver of himself to anyone he encountered, even fleetingly." Hmm. "Everyone felt as if they knew him, even if they did not always admire the work he did. [00:46:10] Millions of people loved him for his generosity of spirit, his quickness of mind, and the hopefulness he inspired.

Some lost their affection for him in later years as the quality of his work declined, [00:46:20] even as they held out hope that he'd find the thing, the project, the character, the spark that had made him great before, as great as he was when he first burst into the cultural [00:46:30] consciousness. And when he was gone, we all wished we had him just a little bit longer."

Hmm. So this is in the prologue. I thought this set up the whole [00:46:40] biography really well. What it got me thinking about, and the reason I wanted to share that in Words to Live By, is there are some people who [00:46:50] I am close with, family and friends, where I sometimes feel like there's a part of them withheld, not being given to me.

And what's so [00:47:00] confusing about Robin Williams is that I think he had that with everybody. On one hand, he gave himself more than anybody has ever given himself, [00:47:10] put it all out there, but there is still this sort of intuitive sense that something is being kept inside. We somehow want something a little bit [00:47:20] more from him, and, which is- Yeah

really confusing because what the hell is that? I'll say I sometimes feel this way about my father, and I [00:47:30] wonder if this is not how we sometimes feel about our parents, that we, we want a- love from them that they do [00:47:40] everything in their power to give and express, and as the children or whatever, we sometimes still feel like, "But was that everything?

Was there more?" Mm. I don't feel [00:47:50] that way about my wife. I don't feel that way about some of my best friends. But there are people where there's something I can't quite put my finger [00:48:00] on where I still feel like I didn't get it all. And there, and I think that I personally find that to be true about Robin Williams.

These are words that were said about him that got [00:48:10] me thinking in this direction. A- and it's really got me thinking more than anything about how much we do express and experience love and give love. [00:48:20] And it's an idea that I frankly want to bring into the next chapter of Famous and Gravy as we- Mm ... do these biographies, because I think love is more [00:48:30] complicated, and how we express it and how we open ourselves up to it, I think we open and close way more unconsciously than sometimes we realize.

Archival: Leading into that. Is [00:48:40] being funny sometimes a hindrance to social interaction? Example, I was once walking in an airport, and a woman came up to me and said, "Be zany." No. Big time. But what about [00:48:50] with, say, family? Do you sometimes- Oh, no, it's, years ago, my, my, I was reading a story to my, to my daughter, and I was doing voices and everything, and she turned to me and said, "Just read the story."[00:49:00]

Ouch. Yeah, it was just- Snap ... yeah, and just stay to the main points. Please. You know? Yeah. No voices. No voices, yeah. Thanks, Dad.

Sara: I think he wrote in July of [00:49:10] 2012 that his goal, his lifelong goal, was to make people less afraid. And so I think of that as- [00:49:20] Hmm ... you know, like, the, the idea that when you're giving joy or when you're, like 'Cause he does massage your brain a little bit.

Like, you can kind of ma- co- come out Yeah. No, no, no. I th- [00:49:30] Yeah, yeah ... actually think that's a good way of describing the experience- Yeah. You can- ... I mean, Matala ... yeah ... like, "

Michael: Whoa, I guess I didn't have all these parts of me in me." Right? I was like, yeah. It's like, "Hey." He actually lights up the interior insula, the- Yeah, [00:49:40] exactly

Sara: basal- Yeah, yeah, it's right. Thanks for coming ... prefrontal cortex ... enjoy your new neural path- pathways.

Archival: Exactly.

Sara: There's some truth to it, right? At the- Yeah, yeah ... yeah. And I just think that is, I [00:49:50] think that's a great thing to aspire to. And I do think that, like, fear is, like, o- one of the great enemies, you know?

So I just think that if you ... If ... And if that's [00:50:00] something that you want to share- Hmm ... it makes sense that he was doing all those USO tours and that Christmastime, and just to give people some relief from what they have. And then [00:50:10] when they talk about him visiting hospitals, like, the idea that he was able to share, like, that he had fear.

So it was like it destigmatizes, like, the idea [00:50:20] of admitting you have a fear, which is, I think- Yeah, yeah ... is like a big deal, and then not being alone with it. And I think those two things are pretty amazing, and so it's not a bad life [00:50:30] goal. Yeah.

Michael: I love this, Sarah. Mm-hmm. And I ... Frankly, part of me does hear 12-step stuff in that.

Mm. I sometimes think that the 12 steps are a, a fundamentally ... It's a fear [00:50:40] management program. One of the most ... And there's a sort of thing that I've heard that I've committed to memory because they talk about resentment being the number one offender. It's the thing that takes out [00:50:50] alcoholics. The reason people go back out and drink- Hmm

is resentment somehow takes over. And I heard once in a meeting, "Fear is me not getting my way in the future, anger is me not getting my way in the [00:51:00] present, and resentment is me not getting my way in the past." Hmm. Meaning you can draw a line between how fears become resentments, and if you take any resentment you have and say, "What is [00:51:10] the fear underneath this?"

Then you start to really get at the human condition and what's- Yeah ... driving you. And bringing that out into the sunlight, and using the sunlight as [00:51:20] disinfectant, and sharing it with other people, and helping them move through fear- Yeah ... is the name of the game. I, so I, I hear some real- spirituality in- Yeah

in those [00:51:30] words that- Hmm ... to live by. So I think that's awesome. I love that. Yeah. Okay, let's move on. Category seven, man in the mirror. This category asks a fairly simple question: Did this person [00:51:40] like their reflection, yes or no? This is not about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence verse self-judgment.

I landed on no, but [00:51:50] not because of the suicide, and not even because of the alcoholism necessarily. I do think that there was an insatiable quest [00:52:00] for validation. With Robin Williams more than most other people looks to be fundamentally temporary and not sustaining. Yeah. Even [00:52:10] though as this conversation's gone on, Sarah, I've actually seen more and more evidence for the kind of upward staircase and the spiritual growth in Robin Williams.

Yeah. I [00:52:20] still landed on a no. I- Now that we're here in this category, I'm a little less confident of it, but that's how I approached it. What did you think about here?

Sara: I had a hard time with this [00:52:30] one too, because I, uh ... And like so many people talk about, like, how he would brawl and just be exhausted after a performance or after a set, [00:52:40] and then, and they, some people even describe it as a bit unnerving to watch him go from that to, like, this.

It makes sense to me- Just he looks depleted ... yeah I'd imagine [00:52:50]

Michael: he's depleted, right?

Sara: Yeah, yeah. But I also think that there's, in some ways, like, you couldn't be Robin Williams and not have some confidence. I [00:53:00] mean, like, Billy Crystal is like, "Nobody had bigger balls on stage." Right. Right, right, right. He would just, like, take a risk, and he'd, like

And in order to do that, you really- And even the story of

Michael: Christopher Reeves is a ballsy [00:53:10] move, right? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. As a friend who loves him, and so if you didn't get a joke, I think it'd be okay, but I also think that is, that's a confident act.

Sara: Yes. And- And there's a

Michael: lot of confident [00:53:20] acts in his life.

Yeah.

Sara: I think part of, at the end of his life, it, I think he knew he wasn't himself. And so- Yeah ... part of me, like, sees him losing the love of his reflection. Yeah. And I [00:53:30] d- I, I think there's, and there probably were other times when he had some self-loathing, but I just, to me, there has to be some type of sparkle.

Like, he's too good at [00:53:40] observing to not see at some point, oh, that was okay.

Michael: The other thing is that I just see loneliness vibes-

Sara: Yeah, yeah ...

Michael: on some level. And- I think that's [00:53:50] fair ... even when in his more younger, vital phases of life, I even get- Yeah ... that a little bit. He was very well-cast in Good Will Hunting, and in [00:54:00] Dead Poets Society- Mm-hmm

as a sort of romantic.

Sara: Yeah. I could be persuaded- Yeah ... in your direction.

Michael: The point is to ask the question, not to arrive at an answer. That's right. That's right. But, you know. [00:54:10] Okay. Category eight, cocktail, coffee, or cannabis? This is where we ask which one would we most wanna do with our dead celebrity? You wanna lead us here?

Sara: Yeah, I just, I always have a hard time [00:54:20] with this because I never wanna take an addict back into the, like ...

Michael: Yeah, but it would be fun. Look- Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah ... I don't wanna do cocaine now or ever again- ... but [00:54:30] if Robin Williams and John Belushi and Richard Pryor, you know, and Robert De Niro and the rest of them- Yeah

like, bust out a few lines in the late '70s, yeah, I might be tempted. Like, [00:54:40] may- maybe I do need to hang with the boys one night. I don't know. Yeah.

Sara: Yeah, that's a fair, that's a fair point. I think- Yeah ... but because of that, I think I ended up [00:54:50] with kind of coffee, but I don't really want it to be coffee. I want it to be, like, I don't know what kind of white wine he drinks.

Like an iced tea or something? Yeah, I would want ... 'Cause I would want it, he used to work those restaurants in [00:55:00] Marin, like, right along the water. Yeah. Like, is it, like, Neptune and something else? Yeah. Like, he was, like, a waiter there or something. Yeah. And so- I think that I would love to have that view [00:55:10] of the Bay Area, like, with him and, like, see everybody, like, buzzing about him and see, like, how they give him privacy, and then to have a chance to [00:55:20] see him in that space.

Michael: What's a conversation you would wanna have in that context? Well, this card

Sara: is surprising. But, like, I... Maybe it's because I have all these friends with [00:55:30] children going off to college, but he was elected president of, of the, of the student body of his high school, like, his- Yeah ... junior year. Yeah. And then his family moved him to [00:55:40] California.

So like this- Yeah, he said he

Michael: grew up in the Midwest. Yeah. Yeah,

Sara: yeah. So, like, the idea that he had, after having had what seemed like a lot of struggles in finding a [00:55:50] place in a community and climbed the ranks of that, and then at 17 to have had this very... To finally have found, like, a structured place where you had a spot in [00:56:00] society or, like, in the community, and then to get uprooted and move to California for your senior year or something.

Yeah. I just, I can't even imagine [00:56:10] what that would've been like. And so I, I just think that it would be an interesting framework to see where he was and how he ended up at Claremont Men's College and then- Mm-hmm ... he always says the ladies got [00:56:20] him to do- doing drama- Yeah ... and then it kinda, like, rolls from there.

But I just think those kind of years are Are an interesting aspect of it all to [00:56:30] me. I mean-

Michael: Yeah. I- it's funny, I almost had the exact same scene in mind. Okay. I pictured a coffee shop in Potrero, which is- Yeah ... other side of the bay, but- ... the view of [00:56:40] San Francisco from Potrero Hill- Oh, yeah ... that neighborhood, I was thinking.

That is gorgeous. Yeah. I even found a coffee shop named Farley's, which apparently is, like, locally owned, and-

Sara: and- Oh, there's one in Oakland. There's one. There's one- Oh, [00:56:50] is there? ... on Grand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was there, like, at least four or five times a week. I love Farley's. I mean, th- th-

Michael: awesome. Okay. Yeah. I chose the right place.

And I- I think I do wanna press on this question [00:57:00] of how well he understands what it means to be loved. Started to tell a story earlier about a friend I know who grew up with him, who, [00:57:10] who, who was put on the outside after Robin became famous, and that he apparently would, was dismissive of some of the people he grew up with.

B- I look at that, and then I also look at [00:57:20] some of the friendships he has as a celebrity: Billy Crystal, Eric Idle, Christopher Reeve. And what my friend who grew up with him said was that, "I think some of this is on [00:57:30] me because I was like, 'Robin, why wouldn't you help me? Why wouldn't you help my career?'" Oh, yeah.

And I think that is a very, very tempting reaction to [00:57:40] have if you grew up with somebody whose fame runs ahead of you, and you're interested- Yeah ... and in fact, I don't even think it has to be fame or entertainment. I think if you grow up with somebody whose success [00:57:50] runs ahead of you, there's a part of you that might ask the question, "Will you help me out?"

I think with... And, and m- my friend, for what it's worth, has made peace with that question. I think [00:58:00] he didn't have that complicating factor with some of his celebrity friends like Billy Crystal and Eric Idle. Yeah. I wanna know how he understands the experience of love inside because y- [00:58:10] I keep coming back to this point of him appearing to me to be insatiable and that, and I see him striving for that greater thing.

[00:58:20] And, you know, I wouldn't even say I know that he fell short. One thing that's gonna sound a little bit weird. I, I was surprised to learn he was 63 [00:58:30] when he died. That's not old, obviously, but it's not quite as young as I thought.

Sara: And- Because he's out riding his bike, and he like, and that's [00:58:40] the thing- And he's so vital

is like he had this debilitating disease. Yeah. And he was still, he seemed, yeah. He

Michael: was- It doesn't look exactly, this is weird, and I feel a little awkward saying it, but it [00:58:50] doesn't exactly look like a life cut way short to me. I think it's cut short, but it, it's not, it's

Archival: not like there's a whole

Michael: lot left on the table here in [00:59:00] terms of what more life has to offer than what Robin Williams experienced from what I can tell.

And so I do wonder about the missing piece. Mm-hmm. And the same thing I brought up in the [00:59:10] words to live by, I, i- in terms of feeling there's something that I'm after and maybe even those who loved him are after. How well does he see that himself? Does he [00:59:20] understand that mystery at the center? I don't know, but I wanna talk about it over a cup of coffee as we- Yeah

look over San Francisco and, I don't know, get deep on it. 'Cause I think he's ready to go deep. There's no [00:59:30] question.

Sara: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Michael: Okay. Mm-hmm. We have arrived. We no longer have a category named The Vanderbeek. James Vanderbeek has sadly left us. We are now calling this category The [00:59:40] Case For The Upward Staircase.

And in this category, I hope it is fairly self-explanatory that we are trying to look at this life and say there was some kind of [00:59:50] spiritual growth a- along the long arc of it, and there's meaning, value, and legacy. I think you said something earlier that I wanna come back to that I think is [01:00:00] very unique to him.

Mm-hmm. And ver- and really important. When you talked about his desire to help people overcome fear, comedy helps us under- overcome fear. [01:00:10] Oh, yeah. Comedy can be a pressure release, but it also can be a... I mean, maybe that is what it is, is a fear- Yeah ... release, you know? Yeah. Like, the, the [01:00:20] challenges that we are up against become a little bit more manageable if we can laugh- Yeah

and let out, let off a little steam and [01:00:30] make it through. And I hadn't thought about it until now, but in a way maybe that is, like, his great legacy, that there is [01:00:40] freedom from fear w- with the assist of humor and comedy and insight and intellect. Which if that's not the case for the upward staircase, I don't know [01:00:50] what is.

Archival: I would hope that there would be, if there's an afterlife, that would have the places that I, or at least a version of the places I've grown, that I think are extraordinary here. [01:01:00] Mountains, lakes, forests, beaches with perfect curl. Um, but also, I mean, a place almost like Venice, where, I mean, there's times in Venice to me, I've been there, [01:01:10] when I just go, "My God, what a glorious city."

And, and even New York in spring, where you can go... There's times in every different place that you've been where you say, "This is, this is [01:01:20] paradise," or, "This is extraordinary." I would hope that there'd be something like that. And most of all, I would hope there would be, you would come in contract, come in contact, and contract if you're in Hollywood, with [01:01:30] extraordinary people, like the ones I've met in life.[01:01:40]

Michael: Speed round, plugs for past shows. Sarah, if people enjoyed this episode of Famous and Gravy with Robin Williams, what else might they like from the Famous and Gravy archives? [01:01:50]

Sara: We referenced Bob Saget. Okay. I think that would be, uh, kind of an interesting- My wife hates that episode. Sorry. I love it. Yeah.

Sorry, Allison. No, no, no. Uh, but I just- No, no ... I think that's [01:02:00] like the, the- Uh, uh ... yeah ...

Michael: Amit's mom loves it for what it's worth. Okay. So we'll put those two up against each other too. Well, yeah, Mother's Day is

Sara: coming soon- ... so we're gonna- [01:02:10]

Michael: Yeah, there you go.

Archival: Um-

Sara: So we'll go with that, and then I also wanna go back to Muhammad Ali.

So I did not- Yes ... appreciate that, like, Muhammad Ali was, like, [01:02:20] actually friends with Billy Crystal and Robin Williams. I, like, Muhammad Ali keeps coming back. I think it's such a great episode. If you're new to Famous and Gravy, I think it's a great place to start. Uh-

Michael: All right, episode [01:02:30] 31, The Greatest, Muhammad Ali.

I was gonna go with episode 75, Norm Macdonald, Love and OJ Jokes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's, uh, in terms [01:02:40] of comedians we lost too soon, where it still stings and I can- Oh, yeah, yeah ... actually spend quite a bit of time with them and never feel like I get enough- Yeah ... uh, Norm Macdonald's up there for me, and just a fan [01:02:50] favorite.

So- Yeah ... episode 75, Love and OJ Jokes, Norm Macdonald.

Archival: Yeah.

Michael: Okay, here is a preview for the next episode of Famous and Gravy. [01:03:00] College students loved her. She appeared in ads for cars, soft drinks, shampoo, typewriters, and condoms.

Archival: And I know it's not Betty White 'cause she lived to be 99. [01:03:10]

Michael: And finally, Famous and Gravy listeners, we love hearing from you.

If you wanna reach out with a comment, a question, or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. In our show notes, we include [01:03:20] all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels. Famous and Gravy is created and co-hosted by Amit Kapoor and me, Michael Osborne.

This episode was produced by Jacob [01:03:30] Weiss. Thank you so much to the fantastic Sarah Murphy for showing up on this episode. Original music by Kevin Strang. Thanks. See you next [01:03:40] time.