065 Father of the Bride transcript (William Goldman)

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[00:00:00] Amit: It's time for Famous Gravy, life lessons from dead celebrities. Now the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

[00:00:08] Michael: This person died 2018, age 87. He was an outspoken critic of the movie industry.

[00:00:15] Friend: Uh, Roberts. What's his name? The Reverend Oral Roberts.

[00:00:20] Michael: Not Oral Roberts. Eight of his films each grossed more than 100 million domestically.

[00:00:26] Friend: Clint Eastwood. Clint Eastwood.

[00:00:28] Michael: Not Clint Eastwood, who as of this recording is still with us. Ah! He wrote his most famous screenplay while teaching creative writing at Princeton.

[00:00:36] Friend: Not Oliver Stone.

[00:00:38] Michael: Not Oliver Stone, who as of this recording is still with us. He made headlines in his famously thin skinned industry when he declared Nobody knows anything.

[00:00:48] Friend: Ha, ha, ha, it's just gonna be anyone. Um, nobody knows anything? Dino De Laurentiis is not, he's dead, but he's not the guy.

[00:00:57] Michael: Nope. In 2009, he was called the world's greatest and most famous living screenwriter. He wrote The Princess Bride and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

[00:01:07] Friend: Oh, Jesus. Um, The Princess Bride, we read that. We read that, right? I'm looking at my daughter. Which one? Remember Princess Bride? Yeah. No, this is no good. Can't go to a seven year old for guidance. I disagree. William Goldman, right?

[00:01:24] Michael: Today's dead celebrity is William Goldman.

[00:01:30] Archival: I've been very lucky in that I've only written movies I want to write. But you know the other thing that I wrote that caught on out there is screenplay as a structure.

[00:01:41] You're telling a story. You've got to believe in the story. That sounds really corny, but you do. You can only write what you think you can make play. If you try and do something that you don't give a shit about, you're not going to get it made. I think what we do is write what What we hope will move us and we hope that you can translate that emotion to the reader You want to move people?

[00:02:15] Michael: Welcome to famous and gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

[00:02:18] Amit: And I'm Amit Kapoor. Michael and I are looking for ways to make life better

[00:02:22] Michael: And we believe that the best years might lie ahead. So on this show, we choose a celebrity who died in the last 10 years, and we go through a series of categories reviewing their lives to extract wisdom and inspiration.

[00:02:36] At the end, we answer the question, Would I want that life? Today, William Goldman. Died 2018, age 87. Should I say a quick word about why I wanted to do this episode? Yeah, I think that's good. I think more than anybody else we've done on this show... This is the person, like, before we started Famous Gravy, this is the person whose life I thought I wanted.

[00:03:01] And I really wanted to hash it out with you. I don't know what my answer will be, but this was a life I aspired to once upon a

[00:03:07] Amit: time. I'm excited to get into this. And then, uh, the complete opposite end of that spectrum, I didn't even recognize who it was. I didn't even know the name. When you were like, we're gonna do William Goldman sometime, I was like, okay, I don't know who you're talking about.

[00:03:20] I'll

[00:03:20] Michael: be sure to look him up. Yes. Well, thank you for taking the time to do that. Alright. Category 1. Grading the first line of their obituary. William Goldman, who won Academy Awards for his screenplays for both Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and All the President's Men, and who, despite being one of Hollywood's most successful screenwriters, was an outspoken critic of the movie industry, died on Friday in Manhattan.

[00:03:49] He was 87.

[00:03:51] Amit: Well, dammit, no Princess Bride?

[00:03:53] Michael: Well, that's my first reaction. I mean That was our whole title. It's an outrage. I'm very angry about it. There's actually There's a lot of things that I got frustrated around. So, I guess let's talk about Princess Bride first. Do you think that is his

[00:04:08] Amit: In terms of our generation and probably 15 years surrounding us in either direction, I would say yes.

[00:04:17] Michael: Well,

[00:04:18] Amit: that's the public opinion, but that's also his own opinion. It's his own pride and joy.

[00:04:22] Michael: Yes, it wasn't a box office success, exactly. It is somewhere beyond cult. I think it's also very singularly his, because it was a book before it was a movie. But it's also, like, so beloved, and so, like, cross generational, cross genre.

[00:04:43] It's such a masterpiece. By the time he died, I would like to think it would have been recognized as such, and therefore should have been mentioned in the first line of his obituary. Yes. Is that the case you're making? Was that your reaction in

[00:04:56] Amit: not hearing it? Yeah, very much so. But there's also this meta thing that's going on, and I assume you saw the same interview I did from, I think, 2000 or 2001, where he said, when I die, this is what they're going to put in the first line.

[00:05:11] Bill

[00:05:12] Michael: Goldman knows, knows that when the time comes to write his obituary, the first line will be Academy Award winner. Oh, and the second line will be the famous phrase you wrote. Nobody knows

[00:05:25] Amit: anything. Right. Do you have the second line

[00:05:27] Michael: in front of you? So, I've got it right here in front of me, and no. The second line says he caused colon cancer and pneumonia, but then in the third paragraph, which is kind of the third line, uh, they mention more of his movies.

[00:05:39] So Princess Bride is, I think, a high nominee for omissions. Like, I would have found a way to include that in the first line of the obituary. I also think this whole, like, nobody knows anything. I mean, that, that goes beyond Hollywood. That goes beyond entertainment now. I think, first, sort of leapt off the page when he wrote it in his 1983 book.

[00:05:59] Adventures in the Screen Trade, and it became like something that was kind of like, I don't know, a common joke in entertainment.

[00:06:07] Amit: But it's And even beyond, it's just used as a headline, you know, to describe anything, to describe politics and so

[00:06:13] Michael: forth. It's analogous to everything is copy, uh, from Nordaffron, right?

[00:06:17] Amit: Do you think that's

[00:06:18] Michael: first line stuff? Well, that's what I was going to say. I do think it would have been hard to get it in there. It would have been kind of clunky. But I still kind of want it in there. I'll tell you what I also have a real problem with in this first line. Was an outspoken critic of the movie industry.

[00:06:37] I don't think that's actually fair. I think it's sort of true. And I think in a way that's what they're nodding to. As much as they didn't include Nobody Knows Anything. I think that when they refer to him as an outspoken critic, that's kind of what they're saying, but critic makes it sound like, like he's going around bad mouthing.

[00:06:57] I don't think that's true. I think he offers analysis, and I think he does talk about how confusing the, the entertainment industry is, but I don't think he's exactly a

[00:07:07] Amit: critic. I, I vehemently disagree with you. So, I watched a number of interviews over the last several days, and It seems like in every interview he gave, he is indeed badmouthing the industry.

[00:07:22] Like he has this position that art and commerce cannot coexist. This will

[00:07:27] Michael: drive you mad, but I believe this is true very simply. People go to see hits because they want to see that movie. They don't go to see flops cause they don't want to see that movie. It's as simple as that. And the problem Hollywood has is they can't figure out why studios are in business for only one very, very good reason to stay in business.

[00:07:47] To show a profit of their stockholders.

[00:07:49] Amit: And that was like the driving force behind a lot of not only his books that he wrote about the industry, but even in his gripings about many of the works that he did with the exception of some of the titles we mentioned.

[00:08:03] Michael: Okay, so first of all, I disagree. I don't think he's saying art and commerce cannot coexist.

[00:08:09] I think he is saying they often don't, and if you love movies because you love the art, then you might be frustrated because it is not art that drives it, it is commerce. So I think his audience is people who aspire to be into the entertainment industry. But I don't think he's saying that's a bad thing or a corrupt thing.

[00:08:28] I just think he's saying it's a confusing thing. I think there's a difference between

[00:08:31] those.

[00:08:32] Amit: I don't know. I disagree. I think it is a criticism, but he offers no way to correct

[00:08:36] Michael: it. I guess maybe this is semantics around the word criticism, because I don't think he's, like, a jerk. And I think that, to say, outspoken critic, makes it sound like he's going around bad mouthing.

[00:08:47] Do you and I just totally disagree on this

[00:08:48] Amit: point? I think we do, and I think me and the obit writer may agree.

[00:08:53] Michael: This is, let me put it this way, at the very least, this would have been the fourth or fifth thing I would have said about him. I think that both you and the New York Times need to look closer.

[00:09:06] Amit: I think you're confused, Michael.

[00:09:07] You said the word love. This is not a

[00:09:09] nasty

[00:09:10] Michael: opening start. I know. Alright,

[00:09:11] Amit: let's fucking go. This is a critical, it's a critical start. So you used the word love, and what you're saying is that you cannot be a critic and love it. I think he loved the industry. He was a critic with love. Fine.

[00:09:23] Michael: I'll, I'll grant you that.

[00:09:24] I, and I think that that's the point that's lost here. Outspoken critic, it loses the love point for

[00:09:29] Amit: me. Maybe we've arrived at the same thing here is that what it's missing is his pure love for the art form, despite his outspoken criticism. So this, so they're just missing a modifying adjective rather than outspoken.

[00:09:44] So let's rewrite this like a loving critic. Yeah.

[00:09:47] Michael: Loving critic. But that would just be confusing if you were to write it that way.

[00:09:51] Amit: I mean, this is a really important grand theme, I think, that we've kind of hit upon that we see in society today is that you cannot be a critic and be loving, whether it comes to the United States of America, whether it comes to the state of Texas, that you have to choose one or the other.

[00:10:06] You're either a critic or you love it. And what you and I see in William Goldman is he is a critic who loves it. And there's careful language that needs to be used in order to convey that.

[00:10:17] Michael: Okay, so three things I have to say about this obit. It's missing the princess bride, it is missing the nod to nobody knows anything, and this outspoken critic thing.

[00:10:29] I think with that I have my score. I'll give it a six. It's not wrong wrong. Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid and all the President's men were the ones that he won Oscars for. That makes sense. Princess Bride is so beloved that I feel like you need to try and get that in there. And Nobody Knows Anything is so important that I would have liked a different nod to it.

[00:10:50] This is a complex man with an incredible range of work. And I think that they did a 6 out of 10 job of capturing that.

[00:10:58] Amit: So I'm gonna go an 8, and that's only for Princess Bride. Oh wow. Like I said, I have no problem with outspoken critic. To me, that doesn't necessarily mean that you hate it. And that's a very important discussion we just had.

[00:11:09] Michael: Uh, okay. Category two. Five things I love about you. Here, Amit and I come up with five reasons why we love this person, why we want to be talking about them in the first place.

[00:11:20] Amit: I think you're going first, given that this whole episode was your idea. Okay.

[00:11:25] Michael: This is not going to come out perfect, but I'm going to try it.

[00:11:29] I wrote, inconceivable, a life philosophy from a lifelong teacher. Okay. So, inconceivable, the famous, uh, line from Princess Bride, obviously. He didn't fall? Inconceivable! You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. So first of all, I do think William Goldman is a lifelong teacher.

[00:11:50] He mentored a lot of people, and he had thought before Butch Cassidy sold that he was going to be a professor. Like, that was the life he envisioned for himself. I think he is also something of a guru in the way that he is helping people, but I don't think he has Any single life philosophy message that's all sort of hammered out.

[00:12:14] I, I think there's no like unifying theory or theory of the mind. And I think that this gets back to nobody knows anything. What it is, is a statement of unpredictability. So it's all a giant roulette wheel and nobody knows nothing. Well, they really don't. I mean, one of the things about screenwriting is, uh, it's very important.

[00:12:34] I'm working a lot with young writers. And one of the things I try and tell them in the very beginning is that I don't know what I'm doing as a screenwriter. If I knew what I was doing as a screenwriter, I've written two movies that I really like. I like The Princess Bride, I like Witch Casting and The Sundance Kid.

[00:12:46] Those are neat, as far as I'm concerned. Everything I've written isn't that good. If I knew what I was doing, they would be. If I can do it once, theoretically I should be able to do it again. I see that as comforting, that just like the world is chaotic, and I'll try and do a little pattern matching for you, and I'll try and explain who the critical characters are in this industry, but just remember, nobody knows anything, and anybody acting like they know anything, they're lying to you.

[00:13:12] So, I think for thing number one, I, I wrote inconceivable as a life philosophy in that we want to have meaning, we want to have clarity, and we want to have predictability. Ultimately, life and work and everything is inconceivable. There was an interview I watched with him where over and over again, he keeps saying, you know, and if that thing hadn't happened, then I wouldn't be here today.

[00:13:38] And so I wrote The Strangler book in 10 days. I wanted to make it seem longer than it was. So I had a ton of chapters, because each new chapter I could start on the top of the next page. A lovely actor named Cliff Robertson somehow got a hold of No Way to Treat a Lady. And he came to my apartment and he said I read your screen treatment and would I write a screenplay?

[00:14:07] That's how I got in the movie business. All a fluke. Huh. I mean if Cliff Robertson doesn't misread my... My novel and think it's a screen treatment, he never asked me. The role of Chance, I think, is, uh, is kind of like something that he wants to put out there to anybody who aspires to work in entertainment or to be a storyteller or to work in movies or whatever.

[00:14:31] And I find that very comforting and I like the way he distilled that down for me in that message. So, that's thing number one I love about Bill Goldman. Okay, great. What

[00:14:40] Amit: do you got? So, number two. I'm gonna go, uh, father daughter relationship. So he was a father to two girls, Jenny and Susanna. I think we'll have to talk about this later, but Susanna tragically died in 2015, three years before William did.

[00:14:57] But Two things, I'm going to work backwards here, that I love about their father daughter relationship, is that in a lot of the, like, mini documentaries done about William Goldman, Jenny was sort of the spokesperson for his life. Like, she knew everything about what he loved, and the way he thought, and his art form, and I just thought that was awesome.

[00:15:18] Michael: I sat in that chair and we would brainstorm. There was something about sitting down in that chair that meant you were getting down to business. We would sit for hours, you know, writing the outline, doing the thing, brainstorming about character stuff. I was always taking pen to paper and writing down things that we talked about, writing down ideas, writing down things he said, writing down ideas I had, right.

[00:15:37] You know, and, and then taking it away and reconstructing and sending him a

[00:15:41] Amit: draft to look at later. Like, I can just picture those discussions of him saying, like, this is my view of the world. And them having a, a sort of two way discussion about life and art. Uh, and I thought that was beautiful, how much she knew.

[00:15:54] And then secondly, this masterpiece that was omitted from the first line, The Princess Bride, was written for his daughters. So, Everyone knows the Princess Bride mostly from the movie, which came out in 1987. The book came out, I think, in 73, 74, and he asked his two young daughters at that point, what do you want my next book to be about?

[00:16:14] And one of them said princesses and the other one said brides. And so he was like, fine, Princess Bride. And so it was like an ode to his daughters. So, yeah, something always touches me about, uh, father daughter relationships, and I just thought there were two excellent examples of

[00:16:28] Michael: it. I couldn't agree more.

[00:16:31] Let me take number three. I wrote storytelling as problem solving. So, here's what I mean by that. He is responsible for a few original works. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, which was based on two real people, historical figures that were unknown until he wrote about them. Princess Bride, you know, basically sprang from his mind.

[00:16:55] But a lot of his success was adaptations. So he adapted Misery, the Stephen King book, and he adapted, obviously, All the President's Men, the Woodward and Bernstein book as well. And even more than that, he was also had a big reputation as a script doctor. So that's the way most movies go, right? As somebody writes them, but they get passed around by a lot of hands saying, ah, something's not working here.

[00:17:22] Something is working there. It is rumored that William Goldman had a big hand in A Few Good Men, the Aaron Sorkin written movie with Tom Cruise. There was also a story I heard about Silence of the Lambs, Jonathan Demme's Silence of the Lambs, where he saw a screening of it right before it was about to go out and he's like, he called him up and just said, I loved it, just had one note.

[00:17:44] And he did that just out of the goodness of his own heart. He didn't get paid for it. Overall, William Goldman was somebody who everybody called up and said, can you fix this script? And Here's what I love about that. One, I think that that's a fun job. This story is not working. Can you make it work? But I also think that a lot of what story is ultimately about is trying to tinker with an idea and saying I Think it's supposed to be this way.

[00:18:13] It's almost like a search for I don't know, justice or satisfaction in a series of confusing events. This is why humans are such storytellers is that we're always trying to make sense of the world. I really like the idea of a job where you are meant to swoop in and help make sense of a story. You're supposed to simplify it or explain something critical about it in order to arrive at some fundamental truth.

[00:18:41] That's a really desirable Job, but it's also a really desirable life idea for me. You know, I think this is why you and I care about stories. It helps us make meaning. So storytelling as problem solving, that was my number

[00:18:56] Amit: three. I like it. And I'm going to build on that later on in

[00:18:58] Michael: this episode as well.

[00:18:59] Okay. And what do you got

[00:19:01] Amit: for number four? So number four, uh, I wrote bipartisan and this has nothing to do with politics. He is both a sports guy and a book guy. Let me just tell one story as an example of this. When he was winning his first Oscar, when he was nominated for Butch Castie and the Sundance Kid, he decided not to go to the Oscars to receive the award that he ultimately won because the Knicks were in the playoffs and this was their first run towards a potential championship and he didn't want to miss the game.

[00:19:29] So he's like, I'm not gonna go. To the Oscars, but he was a very beloved Knicks guy, but really for all New York sports. And he even wrote a book with a guy named Mike Lepica, Lupica, which was about all New York sports in 1987. But really his fandom for the Knicks, he had season tickets for the Knicks for 40 years.

[00:19:48] He often commented on them. He did occasionally write sports columns, but on the other side, here's a guy that. Uh, set out in his career to write the great American novel, you know, he wrote 12 novels before he ever even wrote a screenplay. And I think this persona really existed a lot more back then than it is today.

[00:20:08] And I feel like today we, we kind of divide into book people and sports people. In reality, I think most of us live in the middle and William Goldman was the perfect example of straddling both lines and embraced. By both sides. And so I love that he had his foot in each circle and didn't look like a imposer or

[00:20:31] Michael: poser to either one.

[00:20:32] Excellent. Okay. So number five, I'll go male friendship. There are people who make the case that were it not for Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, we would not have buddy movies and bromance movies, right? That one of the things that was so groundbreaking about Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was the friendship and the chemistry that was clearly on the screen between Paul Newman and Robert Redford.

[00:21:01] I'll jump first. And you jump first. No, I said, what's the matter with you? I can't swim! Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. You

[00:21:14] crazy? I'll probably kill you.

[00:21:25] I think that, um, The kind of, I don't know, uh, The things that men need from each other when they're good buddies, um, Are not often well captured in stories and in film and I think that this is a running theme throughout his movies, actually. I think you see it a little bit in All the President's Men, between Woodward and Bernstein.

[00:21:48] I think you also really see it in the principal characters in The Princess Bride. And the way that there is sort of vulnerability and respect, uh, on display in the male characters is Just something I love, that I think he dealt with in a way that didn't exactly threaten concepts of masculinity, but also I don't know, begins to show a humanity and a vulnerability to it.

[00:22:11] I think that that's part of what made him masterful as a screenwriter. So, that was my number five. Alright, wrap up. Let's recap. Uh, so, number one, I said, uh, inconceivable, a live philosophy. Uh, number two, you said...

[00:22:24] Amit: Father daughter relationship. Father daughter

[00:22:26] Michael: relationship. Number three, I said... Storytelling as problem solving.

[00:22:31] Uh, number four, you said... Bipartisanship.

[00:22:33] Amit: Being a sports guy and a book

[00:22:35] Michael: guy. And number five, I said, uh, male friendship. And just the way he captured that in his movies. Okay. Let's pause.

[00:22:47] Amit: Michael, you know one thing that's very difficult about being a world famous podcaster? Uh huh. Is I just don't interact with very many people. It's

[00:22:55] Michael: hard to connect with the common man.

[00:22:57] Amit: It is, and you would think somebody of my level of infamy and notoriety would just be surrounded by intriguing conversations.

[00:23:04] You know where

[00:23:05] Michael: you need to go to have intriguing conversations? A dive bar. No! You can do so much better than that. Somewhere where people are smart, attentive to great ideas of the world, I'm thinking libraries, or perhaps a bookstore. A bookstore. Have you been to Half Price Books recently? I have the best conversations with people at Half Price Books.

[00:23:23] Sometimes it's the people behind the counter who are helping me find the books that I want to be shopping for and looking for, and just thinking about things, but it's also people in the aisles who I run into and have a conversation with who are like, have you read that yet? Who are you into? What do you like doing?

[00:23:37] This is where I have rich, intellectual, smart conversations that are befitting a man of your podcast fame notoriety. Really? Yes. And do you know where you can go? Do you know where Half Price Books exists? I

[00:23:49] Amit: do, but first I'm gonna check out the all new HPB. com, then find my local store, plan my next trip, perhaps I'll buy online and pick up in store, or create my own wishlist.

[00:24:00] I think

[00:24:00] Michael: that's perfect. I think both the virtual experience and the in person experience at Half Price Books would suit you well. Congratulations on all of your successes. Thank you.

[00:24:15] Alright, Category 3. Malkovich, Malkovich. This category is named after the movie Being John Malkovich, in which people take a little portal into John Malkovich's mind, and they can have a front row seat to his experiences. This is a fairly well known story, but it's something that, to me, gets at the nobody knows anything idea.

[00:24:35] So... His breakout success came with Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. He spent something like eight years researching the story. When he actually wrote it, it took him about four weeks. And when he talks about it in his book, he said, you know, when people ask you, how long did it take you to write? It's like, eh, it's more like eight years rather than four weeks.

[00:24:55] But I, I was agonizing over it for a long time. He, you know, through a series of events, he eventually finds an agent who holds an auction for it. The script doesn't sell at first, um, there's only one studio that shows any interest. He does a little bit of rewriting, and all of a sudden there's this insane bidding war, and it sells for 400, 000, which, uh, at the time was an unbelievable amount of money.

[00:25:19] It's still a lot

[00:25:20] Amit: of money. It's equivalent of three million today, I

[00:25:23] Michael: remember. Right. Like, this was a red hot script for whatever reason. When the movie opens, the critics... hated it, including episode 16, Roger Ebert. He has gave it two and a half stars. They think it's going to be a disaster. So William Goldman is walking around New York with George Roy Hill, the director, and they're like, Oh, they're, they're feeling down and in despair about what this movie is doing.

[00:25:47] They end up going into a theater, and they're talking to the manager of the theater, and he says, to their surprise, We can't sell enough tickets. Everything's selling out. And George Roy Hill, the director, goes, Would you call the other theater on the other side of New York just to see how they're doing?

[00:26:03] And it's the same exact story. This is the theater in Times Square. And so all of a sudden they're like, maybe it's not a total disaster. The movie goes on to win four Academy Awards and is the box office seller for 1969. Here's why it's my Malkovich. I think that this is the roots of the nobody knows anything idea.

[00:26:23] First of all, this movie barely gets made. Like, he's struggling to sort of get it to the light of day. Then nobody wants the script. Then everybody wants the script. Then it sells for this insane amount. And then all the critics hate it. And then it's a runaway success. Like, what do you take away from all that, right?

[00:26:41] I think that there's a big question of, am I doing the right thing? Is this thing working? What matters in all of this? Do people love it? Do people not love it? Ultimately, it makes a ton of money and gets a lot of acclaim. Yeah, that's

[00:26:53] Amit: great, because it's, what you said there is like, we fall into these traps of heuristics, right?

[00:26:58] Yeah. It's like, opening weekend is bad, and so this is going to be a bad movie. But then, you just move on to the next heuristic, and you can just keep moving on, and keep moving on, and keep moving on, and you'll make different assumptions. about the outcome, but nobody really knows what the outcome is going to be.

[00:27:13] That's exactly

[00:27:14] Michael: right. Very well said. So yeah, that's my Malkovich. What do you got? Okay.

[00:27:18] Amit: Uh, so you made a reference in, I think, thing number three about him being a script doctor. I sort of rabbit holed this because I didn't know that script doctors existed. So I really loved the idea of it. So I wanted to find some examples of him being a script doctor.

[00:27:34] You mentioned a few good men in Silence of the Lambs. Another one, just because I thought it was funny, was he was the script actor on Twins, where Arnold Schwarzenegger and, uh, Danny DeVito are long lost twins. But the story I want to tell is of Goodwill Hunting. So he was called in, uh, by Rob Reiner, I believe.

[00:27:52] And this is Matt Damon and Ben Affleck's, um, really it's their debut. They've been around a few movies, but it's certainly their writing debut. And they're kids. They're what, 25 years old who've written this script. It gets greenlighted. It's getting made by a major studio. And just for validation purposes, uh, Reiner calls in.

[00:28:12] William Goldman to take a look at it. And so he spends only one day with the script, and there were rumors actually that float around that he was actually the ghostwriter for the whole thing. And so he did correct that in one of his books. So as a script doctor for this specific one, he goes in, he sits down with Ben Affleck and Matt Damon and even Robin Williams, and there's this subplot that existed in the original novel.

[00:28:37] Filming of the movie in which Matt Damon becomes like an agent for the FBI while he is being his, his mathematical genius janitor. And so William Goldman just looked at the whole thing and he just said, cut this and you've got a perfect movie. And then they cut it and they release it. And it's the smashing success that it was.

[00:28:56] So it's a Malkovich because to have that degree of expertise and that degree of respect that you can literally just take a pair of scissors and say, cut. and you've got a perfect movie. And I would love to be just in the shoes in that moment. And I think that's something that anybody can aspire for. If they, if they don't know what to do or where to land or, or a direction to go in, just be an expert in something.

[00:29:19] Michael: Good stuff. All right, let's move on. Category four, love and marriage. How many marriages? Also, how many kids? And is there anything public about these relationships?

[00:29:27] Amit: No, no, Michael, you got to say it in the princess bride voice. Marriage is what brings

[00:29:32] Michael: us together. Today, marriage, marriage, marriage. That's not bad.

[00:29:40] Okay, good. You know, that line still works. Like I watched that movie with my kids and they hear them go, marriage, and they start laughing. Like it is, it is eternally funny. Oh,

[00:29:53] Amit: I still go to weddings 35 years after that movie and you still hear it. Like, as people are like lining up to go into the

[00:29:58] Michael: chapel.

[00:30:00] You're so right, I didn't have to say that. Alright, category four, love and mileage. How many mileages? Also, how many kids? You only had to do it once. And is there anything public about these relationships? Uh, alright. One wife, Eileen, from 1961 to 1991. Bill was 30 when they were married. They divorced around 60.

[00:30:20] Two daughters, who you mentioned, one of whom died in 2015. You know, we have, as we introduce this category, is there anything public about these relationships? Uh, It was hard to find out why this marriage failed. I couldn't find anything. And, and, what's weird is they got married in 1961, long before he was a screenwriter.

[00:30:40] You know, many years before that. And so, Eileen is there for... The early success with Butch Cassidy and then all the movies in the 70s, Marathon Man, All the President's Men, you know, a bunch of others, where he is in very high demand, he does have a, call it like a leopard period or something, like a dormant period, where In the 80s, William Goldman is not doing all that well.

[00:31:04] He was famously blocked, um, like he had writer's block, and he was just not turning out good stuff. He kind of makes a comeback in the mid to late 80s. First gets involved with memoirs of an invisible man, and then Princess Bride, and then Misery, and, you know, he's sort of back. But that's around the time, like, the marriage dissolves, at age 60.

[00:31:27] So nothing but question marks for me here. He never married again. He ended up having a life partner, it sounds like. Of 20

[00:31:35] Amit: years, though. Of 20 years,

[00:31:37] Michael: yeah. I mean, so it sounds like there was a relationship there. And it, the one quote I saw from William Goldman about the marriage is that he was baffled. He didn't see it coming.

[00:31:46] So I don't know. It's not public, what happened with this relationship. And to dig any deeper feels a little weird. It's impressively

[00:31:53] Amit: non public. Yeah, that's a

[00:31:55] Michael: good way of putting it. And then you mentioned the daughter who died prematurely, which just sounds awful. Uh, did you catch what age she was when she died?

[00:32:04] Amit: It was in 2015, so I don't know the exact, but would have put her in her 50s, I think.

[00:32:09] Michael: That's the data. Uh, I don't know what to say. I'm at

[00:32:13] Amit: anything. I don't think there's much commentary other than, you know, we've hit on this in previous episodes, too. Outlive your child is one of... the worst things, even if that child is in their fifties.

[00:32:24] And this also comes from a guy that we haven't gotten to this early on in his biography. He lost his father at age 15 to suicide. The

[00:32:31] Michael: last four years of his life, he lived upstairs in the house as I was growing up, and then he killed himself when I was 15. And I found his body and no, I've never written about it, but it was a very fucked up

[00:32:44] Amit: childhood.

[00:32:45] Yeah, so there are some very tough, tragic bookends to family life here.

[00:32:49] Michael: I feel like this point has come up on previous episodes as well. When somebody lives as long as he does, it's sort of inevitable there's going to be those kinds of life tragedies, I guess. I, I, and so I just don't know how much to weigh them, uh, as we sort of look at pieces of desirability.

[00:33:05] But I, I am very confused by how somebody who seems to be... smart, seems to be successful, has a marriage fail at age 60 when his career's in not terrible shape. It's confusing, right?

[00:33:23] Amit: That's why you write one of the most famous lines, uh, saying nobody knows anything. Who knows?

[00:33:28] Michael: I guess maybe that is the point I'm trying to make, is there are other things about William Goldman's life that are clearly Like would optimize for good long term partnership, not just in terms of superficial, you know, he had money and was handsome, but actually was smart and seemed to understand relationships that you just don't see, you know, it's not

[00:33:50] Amit: playing out here.

[00:33:51] When he wrote that line relating to box office successes, no matter how well they pilot tested or screened, and then you have no idea how the movie does, I mean, look at marriages. You have all the. science that something is going to be completely compatible. But then there are black swan events and there are people that change and there are different things thrown at you and you just, you can't predict.

[00:34:12] We just don't know.

[00:34:14] Michael: The fact that he describes it as being blindsided is confusing. That's the thing I think I'm hung up on that. He didn't see it coming at age 60 or so that's where you, one would think they would know. If a relationship's going well at that age. But who knows? All right. Category five.

[00:34:33] Net worth. Uh, I've got a number. Did you look this up?

[00:34:37] Amit: I do not

[00:34:38] Michael: know it. Did you write down a number on a piece of

[00:34:40] Amit: paper? I did. I wrote down twelve million on a piece of paper.

[00:34:44] Michael: Final answer. Fifteen million. Good for me. Pretty close, Amit. Pretty, yeah, very close. I'm impressed. How did you arrive at

[00:34:50] Amit: twelve?

[00:34:51] Residuals. Like, you've got these, especially Prince's Bride, I think, which is still, you know, Played in, in syndication on, on cable, you know, really with only three, I don't think being a fixer, a script doctor is going to pay you more than, you know, 20 grand a hit or so. So, yeah, my, my thought was he had these three hits which were dated, uh, what, 1969, 1974, and 1987.

[00:35:14] And all three of which, You know, still circulate. I mean, I remember watching all the president's men in high school by in high school. I meant literally in our government class, we watched all the president's men. So these movies are, are being circulated around and that's how I just, I just randomly picked 12 men cause I thought it would be higher than other expectations

[00:35:34] Michael: of screenwriters.

[00:35:35] Couple of things. I expected a higher number. Um one because I think he worked on some very successful movies and it's not just the originals Uh, I think he was very in demand as a script doctor. I also think that That his books. I don't think that the the direct sales of those were so much but I do think that he It they certainly didn't hurt his reputation for being a script doctor, right that if if it came to be If William Goldman was going to look at your script that this must be a serious movie that that's something you could actually charge for so I that and It does sound like he had a very nice apartment in new york And he had season tickets to the knicks which both of which are you know That's kind of rich guy stuff and 15 million is rich guy stuff, but I I don't know.

[00:36:26] I actually like the number But it's less than what I thought I was expecting more like 20 or 25. I think that You know, we didn't call this out in the first line of his obituary. There's a few intersection points with Nora Ephron, actually. Um, died in Manhattan. He was a New York guy. He wouldn't live in L.

[00:36:42] A. He thought that living in L. A. would make you crazy. He's a very, like, New York figure that way. So one of the reasons I actually wanted to do this episode is that, uh, his lifestyle has some, like, real desirable qualities to it for me, from what I can see. Finer things. Okay, let's move on. Category 6, Simpsons Saturday Night Live or Halls of Fame.

[00:37:04] This category is a measure of how famous a person is. We include both guest appearances on SNL or The Simpsons, as well as impersonations. This may not surprise you, 0 for 4. Nothing. Nothing anywhere. One thing he did say about screenwriters is that most of them do want to direct. Ultimately what they have a goal on, or their eye on, like people who say they want to be screenwriters, is they want to be, like, in control over the whole story.

[00:37:30] He was like, I would never want that job. It holds no appeal to me. All the problems they have to deal with, all the headaches, it's not worth it. So, uh, never any, uh, directing for William Goldman. He does, of course, have two Oscars, though, and that counts.

[00:37:44] Amit: Yeah, I'm sure all the works were, were parodied, uh, in, in Simpsons and Saturday Night Live.

[00:37:50] I think you made a very interesting point about the, the level of fame. Probably what is going to survive, maybe even for a century, will be the Princess Bride. Um, but then also I think these two quotes that he said, the one that we've, we've talked about forever, nobody knows anything, but that also follow the money from, uh, all the presents.

[00:38:09] That's, again, used in headlines all the time, referenced even in, like, news stories today.

[00:38:14] Michael: Yeah. Actually, can we spend just one more minute talking about fame? Because there's nothing much here. I wanted to do this episode in part because I long ago gave up on the idea of being famous. And I think that as I've gotten older, I'm really glad I'm not and never will be.

[00:38:33] Author fame, writing fame, does still hold some allure for me. I don't think that's going to happen. I don't have the discipline to go into a room and bang away at a keyboard for hours, you know, every day. And I think it does require that discipline. And William Goldman, for what it's worth, says Like write writing is never fun.

[00:38:52] He, he even, he, he's, he's a real, he's very critical of his own stuff, with the exception of Princess Bride and to some extent Butch Cassidy. He hates his own stuff, which is weird. Right. I don't quite understand that. But I mean, we'll talk about that more in a minute. But what about you like this being a famous writer, like look more all alerting than other forms of

[00:39:14] Amit: fame?

[00:39:15] Oh, without a doubt. Yeah. And I think partially it's 'cause you don't have facial recognition most of the time. You don't have the invasion of privacy, uh, that comes with nearly all other types of performance, fame, yet you have great import on the way that you've worked your way into people's hearts by the stories you write and the things you tell, expose, uh, document, whatever it is.

[00:39:38] I think it's the most desirable category of fame. However, I think it sounds like one of the least desirable professions out there for the solitude.

[00:39:48] Michael: Yeah, that makes sense. I hear you about solitude. And this is why I think in an earlier part of my life, being a screenwriter looked like fun, because I thought you would have been in community and in collaboration with people.

[00:40:02] Um, okay. Category 7. Uh, in this category, we look at the life expectancy for the year somebody was born, to see if they beat the house odds, and to look for signs of graceful aging. Life expectancy for a man born in the U. S. in 1931 was 59. 4 years. William Goldman made it to 87, so over by 28 years. And it does sound like very, very graceful.

[00:40:25] He was appearing in interviews all the way up to 2015, 2016. Last three years I think that there was a bit of a decline and the body was starting to fail, but he was still very sharp and very with it.

[00:40:37] Amit: It was ultimately pneumonia, is

[00:40:38] Michael: that right? Cancer complicated by pneumonia, but I mean, he was 87 at that point.

[00:40:43] That's a good

[00:40:44] Amit: ride for somebody born in the 30s.

[00:40:45] Michael: Yeah, 87 seems like that's a great ride. And he also had a kind of, um, sharpness in his eye. Like there seemed like a... He was looking, thinking, and was present and engaged. And I think that that's what I care more about in terms of graceful aging, is not necessarily the body that matters, but the mind.

[00:41:06] And the mind still seems very active.

[00:41:08] Amit: I was curious, I couldn't find much on alcohol or drugs. I wouldn't assume drugs with him, but like the profile just speaks to like, you'd expect somebody like this to be a big drinker, but I didn't see it. You know,

[00:41:20] Michael: I think he... He had his distance from Hollywood and I think he had, he was in love with New York and I do think that he was shy on some level.

[00:41:31] I don't know that he was going to a lot of parties and mixing it up. So he sort of seems like that's his disposition.

[00:41:40] Amit: Yeah, he's got kind of this gruff, debonair exterior, which were words that I took directly from other people describing him in

[00:41:47] Michael: eulogies. Yeah, yeah. That's a good description. All right.

[00:41:51] Let's take another break. Category 8. Man in the Mirror. What did they think about their own

[00:41:57] Amit: reflection? So this was tough. So let's get the physical out of the way real quick. I think that's fine. I think he was handsome. No issues there. He looked like a cross to me between John Lithgow and Christopher Walken.

[00:42:11] Uh, at least in his later years. But then you hinted at this a few minutes ago. That he like, he pretty much talks about hating all of his work. Except for The Princess Bride and the screen version of Butch Cassidy. And so that's where I'm like, I'm trouble pegging this guy in terms of self acceptance and self esteem.

[00:42:31] Michael: Well, when I heard him talk about it, it was mostly because he could anticipate his own tricks. I don't like my writing. Too bad. Do not like it. I'm aware of all my tricks. I'm aware of all my feelings. I know I over surprise. When I started, I wrote my first novel when I was 24. And all I had, it's all I have now.

[00:42:57] I think that he had a hard time being delighted by his own ability to be unpredictable. And I think he felt that was an essential part of good storytelling. So for him, what... I think, I don't know, this is certainly my experience working as a producer, that, you know, when you get really close to a story you lose the forest for the trees very easily, and so that, I don't think you can ever be really good at evaluating your own work, particularly if it is, you know, about like, how much does this narrative, how much does this storyline hook me and keep me involved, so I think he's the last person that's in any kind of position to judge it, but I think your question is, How does that relate to self acceptance, or lack thereof?

[00:43:45] I went the other way. I see a fair amount of, not necessarily self acceptance around his professional life, but I certainly see a kind of inner confidence that would lead to a word like outspoken in his first line. One thing that I really admire about him and I think he knows his place very well, and I think he does have some pride about where he can contribute value, even if he can't admire his own contributions, except in a couple of rare circumstances.

[00:44:21] That actually feels pretty overall healthy and balanced to me. That there is an active self critic, and I see some pride that transcends some of that self criticism. So on balance, I think he liked his reflection, and I think he had more than 51 percent or greater self acceptance. So where did you land?

[00:44:41] Amit: I put no because of this, because of so much of the self criticism.

[00:44:44] And, and to go way back to the first line of the obituary is, you know, he worked in an industry that he was overly critical of without really like trying to change it too much. And I, I think there was a love for it, but he couldn't be so comfortable enough as to say, I love my work and, and I love the art form without criticizing it first.

[00:45:04] And that, to me, tipped off. To something that there was some discomfort into who he was, I mean, I think

[00:45:11] Michael: a lot of his critiques of the entertainment industry is about the fear that exists within executives, that the uncertainty around all of these high stakes. Decisions that producers have to make the ego and the and what he describes as deep insecurity that exists in movie stars Um the diminished role of screenwriters and the underappreciated role of people like cinematographers I mean all of that I think sounds to me like the truth of hollywood and so You know that he's not going to fix it.

[00:45:45] I I don't know that he has an eye towards that. I think that what? His message is in his books are if you love movies, and if you want to be involved in this, you just need to understand the rules because there's some really complicated, not okay things happening there, but I have enough self assuredness inside me to say those things to you.

[00:46:06] I am confident in my own reflection in the mirror, even if I'm not the highest guy on the totem pole. So that's where I come out on men in the mirror. Okay. And the critic

[00:46:15] Amit: thing. On the industry thing, I have a lot more leeway. On the disparagement of your own work, I do, but as you said, you know, the way to look at it and the way that you looked at it was, it was just, I can't look at them again.

[00:46:29] Not that I don't like them or I'm not proud of them.

[00:46:31] Michael: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, this keeps coming up, but the nobody knows anything thing, like, does feel like self instruction too. I feel like he's trying to tell himself that.

[00:46:40] Amit: Oh yeah, it's nobody knows anything including myself.

[00:46:43] Michael: Yeah. And that way it is a deep truth.

[00:46:46] All right. Yeah. Next category, outgoing message. How do we think they felt about the sound of their own voice when they heard it on an answering machine or outgoing voicemail? And would they have had the humility to record it themselves or would they use the default setting on their voicemail? So to me this

[00:47:02] Amit: was a no brainer.

[00:47:02] Anybody that's an outspoken critic loves their own voice because they love to hear themselves talk or write to use words they're proud of. The humility part's an interesting one with him. I, uh, I generally see it. You know, a guy that lives in Manhattan, goes, is visible at every Knicks game, goes to the corner deli every day.

[00:47:21] I see many signs of humility with him. The story you told about Silence of the Lambs, even though William Goldman had this great reputation at this point, the fact that he cold called Jonathan Demme and said, Hey, I got an idea for you on how to make this a better movie. I see a lot of signs of accessibility and humility here.

[00:47:40] Michael: Oh, interesting. So accessibility is associated with humility for you?

[00:47:44] Amit: I think there's a correlation,

[00:47:45] Michael: yeah. Yeah, I did too. I think very humble. And I think it is best expressed through his accessibility, which is something people really remark on. He made time for people. And he would have long phone calls.

[00:47:56] And even despite the fact that he was on a first name basis with, you know, a lot of A list celebrities and directors and powerful people in Hollywood, I see actually a fair amount of humility. Um, you might have thought a writer of his stature and of his success would be mostly smug. And I don't see him as smug.

[00:48:17] I see him as, as knowledgeable about high life without being, you know, snooty in any way, shape or form. I see him as actually very approachable. Okay, Category 10, Control Z. This is where we look for the big do overs, the things you might have done differently. I

[00:48:36] Amit: think you can take this, because he kept giving the same answer over and over and over again.

[00:48:40] Every time he's asked. All the

[00:48:42] Michael: President's Men? Yeah. Yeah, he's got like some, if I could do it all over again, I'd do it exactly the same, except I wouldn't go anywhere near All the President's Men. Even though it got him an Oscar. It did. And I, it sounded like hell, the amount of rewrites, the amount of people involved, the Washington Post, Carl Bernstein and Nora Ephron were very involved, apparently.

[00:49:03] Robert Redford was, you know, rewriting, and later Redford made claims that, you know, William Goldman didn't have as much of an impact as he did. You said that if you had it all to do over again, you'd have written everything you've written except for all the president's men. Yeah, it was a terrible experience.

[00:49:18] It was a swell movie. It is. But it was a, uh, It was just a very unpleasant experience. And the movie, it doesn't matter. I think that that's a pretty easy Control Z. I wouldn't, it didn't seem like he was all that awards driven. If he'd rather go to a Knicks game than go to the Oscar ceremony, doesn't that kind of tell you everything you need to know?

[00:49:42] Yeah. At least to me.

[00:49:43] Amit: Yeah, I've got a couple other rapid fires on this. So, also that he never made a basketball movie. being the basketball buff that he was, he did actually write one and it sounded like it would be pretty good. It was, uh, going to take place at a university, an unnamed university in Texas, where Danny DeVito, I think, was going to be the, like, corrupt basketball coach, and John Cleese was going to be the corrupt dean of the university, and they were going to recruit this, like, secret talent out of Africa, but it never got made.

[00:50:13] And then, I want to make this point, because I think he has one of the better takes on this whole idea of do overs and regrets. If you remember from Fred Willard, uh, he had one that, his wife actually had one that I really loved. Saying that, like, you know, if you were in this movie, it could have had a very different outcome, so why...

[00:50:29] double think anything. And what William Goldman said in regards to all the movies that he didn't make, he said that if I'd said no to all the movies I said yes to, and yes to all those I said no, it would have worked out pretty much the same. I love that.

[00:50:45] Michael: I think that's great. Yeah, I do too. Nobody knows anything.

[00:50:50] All right, category 11, second to last category, cocktail, coffee, or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity. It's maybe a question of what drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person, or it may be that a particular kind of drug allows access to a part of them we are most curious about.

[00:51:08] What do

[00:51:09] Amit: you got? Cocktail, and I'll tell you exactly why. Uh, I want him to script doctor me. You know, well, we'll spend some time, I think, over a few cocktails. You know, I just, he'll tell me to cut something. He'll be like, either like, you know, cut, cut the sarcasm. No one's buying it or like tuck in your shirt or like, I, I just think this, this idea of him being able to appraise something really quickly and make it into an elevated version of what it was prior, uh, that's the experience I want.

[00:51:35] And if you remember, that's what I said about Tom Wolfe. I wanted Tom Wolfe to like categorize me. And I think that's what I want. from William Goldman to, uh, script doctor me. And it could just be, like, one thing. It's like, stop wearing collared shirts. And, like, your life will turn around.

[00:51:49] Michael: I really like that, um, because I also want a script doctor.

[00:51:54] Basically, I'll go ahead and say, I'd have coffee for exactly the same reason. I couldn't have put it into the words you put it into. Those are perfect words. But I absolutely want somebody to offer me a little bit more instruction so that... That, that I, that, that it is, it is a story that I'm a little bit more excited to be experiencing and living.

[00:52:15] Maybe the story's perfect as is. Maybe I need more self acceptance with where I am and what I'm doing with my life. But I would like to add some parts and remove some others. And I wouldn't mind having somebody who is a master storyteller tell me which parts to invest more in and to leave behind. I feel like we could all benefit from that advice.

[00:52:35] That's not excessive self criticism or... Maybe it is, but I really like that because I think this is why we love movies. I think this is why we love books and podcasts. And this is why we love any story through any medium is that, you know, it tells us if we were in control, how we'd like it all to go down.

[00:52:51] And I'd like somebody who has just impeccable sensibilities to help me with that. Your, your answer is. Beautiful. And I want the same thing, uh, with coffee, just so we can make it all move a little faster.

[00:53:04] Amit: Yeah, I hope he tells you nose ring. That can You mean like a middle

[00:53:08] Michael: one, like the ball ring? You know

[00:53:11] Amit: what?

[00:53:11] The ball ring always works with the bald head.

[00:53:13] Michael: If I believe that the best years might lie ahead, I mean, if that's what it takes, I'm open to it. Maybe that is the thing. Alright, we've arrived. The Vanderbeek, named after James Vanderbeek, who famously said in Varsity Blues, I don't want your life. Amit, based on everything we've talked about, the big question is, do you want this life?

[00:53:36] Yes or no? Love

[00:53:38] Amit: the significance of it. Like we said, I think Princess Bride will live on for a long time. The guy had tremendous respect from peers. We don't see a lot of complication in love. Two things that I take issue with, one completely out of his control was the tragedies, you can't forget them, but what we're doing is we're assessing how he played everything, right?

[00:54:01] The fact that his father died and that he lost his daughter tragically, not any of his choices. Um, so we have to remove them, but I hell no, I certainly don't want that. The, uh, Issue I have is, is the job. Outside of script doctoring, script doctoring sounds fucking awesome. Like, you know, just going in for a couple days and, like, fixing things rapidly.

[00:54:21] But banging away at a computer or a typewriter for, uh, the better part of 50 years? No way, man. Just cannot do it. And I don't care if it's the ideal level of fame, if it brings you in 12 million dollars, I, I would wilt away at that livelihood. So sorry, William, I think, I think he did it as, as good as anyone can do it.

[00:54:46] I have no problem with the still loving your industry and criticizing it, but it's more I don't want your job. William Goldman, and, and unfortunately your job is far too coupled with your life, and so I don't want your life, William Goldman.

[00:55:00] Michael: Okay, I'm gonna pick up from that thought because I do want this job on some level.

[00:55:06] I don't think I necessarily want it. In this industry, right? I don't want to have to deal with the ego and the insecurity and the bizarre social norms that exist in L. A. and in Hollywood. That doesn't hold much appeal, but I don't Think I would mind sitting in a room and dreaming up stories and trying to find stories that arrive at, you know, deep truths, whether it's about friendship or whether it's about, you know, fairy tale love, uh, or whether it's about horror, but that comes with a big caveat that is with my interpretation that that is not done in pure solitude.

[00:55:52] If that is done in pure solitude, That I'm with you on it. I don't think that's how it works. I think you have to go out there, like Tom Wolfe or Nora Ephron or anybody else, and be an observer of people in order to go back to your computer or typewriter and do the sense making. And in that sense... I do like the idea of being a student of story, and by extension a student of humans.

[00:56:16] And actually, honestly, one thing I realized in getting ready for this episode is that I'm not sure how far away from that I am. You know, working as an audio producer, I feel like I get to do that, and I'm helping other people tell their stories, or workshop their stories, and I love my job. So, that part is appealing.

[00:56:41] The personal life is such a head scratcher, it's hard to set it aside. But there does seem to be a closeness with the children, and maybe that trumps all. And to have this gift to your children of I wrote you this movie, this book, that became a movie, that may well live on for the rest of time. That's a gift, and that's a legacy gift.

[00:57:06] Yeah, I think I want this life on it. I think I also really like the way he became a mentor to a wide variety of people. I think he did learn his way into a clear eyed Analysis of the world in a way that did benefit people and help them to see what was valuable, even if there's no grand unifying message.

[00:57:33] So in that way, I think I, I'm going to go, yes, I want your life, William Goldman. Okay,

[00:57:39] Amit: that's what I'm glad. I'm glad you ended up there considering that that was, you know, a younger Michael Osborne was like, this is a life I want to emulate. So after years and and some deep research and batting it around, you still do.

[00:57:51] So that's good. Somebody knew something.

[00:57:58] So Michael, you are William Goldman. You have died. Before you is St. Peter, the Unitarian proxy for all things afterlife. Uh, you have an opportunity to make your pitch, um, for a pleasant afterlife experience. You can do so by telling us one unique contribution you have made to the stream of life.

[00:58:23] Michael: As you wish.

[00:58:25] St. Peter, I was a famous screenwriter, and there's not many of us. I'm not exactly sure how I became so famous, but I was involved in some really great movies. Maybe some of the best movies. I think that everybody down there on Earth is imagining that hidden behind the confusing life experiences we all encounter is some grand plan, some grand set of rules.

[00:58:56] There may be a creator, there may not be, I won't know. But at least for those who are down there, nobody knows anything. And I think we all need to be reminded of that. If there is somebody who knows everything, Maybe I'll get a chance to meet him if you'll let me in.

[00:59:20] Famous and Gravy listeners, we want to hear from you. We need people to participate in our opening quiz where we reveal the dead celebrity. You can email us at hello at famousandgravy. com If you're enjoying our show, please tell your friends. You can find us on TwitterX, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Threads. Our handle is at Famous and Gravy.

[00:59:41] We also have a newsletter you can sign up for on our website, famousandgravy. com. Famous and Gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me, Michael Osborne. This episode was produced by Jacob Weiss. Original theme music by Kevin Strang. Thank you so much for listening. See you next time.