123 Blunt Grace transcript (Sinead O’Connor)

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Michael: [00:00:00] Hi, famous and gravy listeners, Michael Osborne here. I wanted to send a shout out to a few people because recently I've had a number of invitations to participate in interviews and in podcasts, and there's been some really nice flattering press, uh, brown, famous and Gravy and 14th Street Studios. So I was on two podcasts, uh, better called Daddy, hosted by Rena Friedman Watts, and Your Mic hosted by Freddie Cruz.

Both of those were just awesome conversations and tell you a little bit more about my backstory. The other interview I did was with Rachel Huss on the Hustling Around Town Blog. Rachel is fabulous and I really enjoyed that conversation, so I'll put all these things in the show notes if you're interested.

Take a look, take a read through. That's it. Just wanted to shout those folks out. Thank you so much. Let's get to the episode.

John: This is famous in Gravy biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousenggravy.com. [00:01:00] Now here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2023, age 56. She spoke openly of having a traumatic childhood. She said that her mother physically abused her and that in her teens, she was arrested for shoplifting and sent to reform schools. Oh God. Yeah. Shoplifting makes me think of Winona Ryder, but she's still alive. Oh, okay. Judy Garland.

Are you thinking E Liza Minnelli Julie Garden's

Friend: daughter? Yes. Minelli. Oh no, but she's still alive. I don't wanna kill off Liza.

Michael: Not Liza. Minnelli, who asked if this recording is still with us? Years before her death, she converted to Islam, though she continued to answer to her previous name. What? Yeah.

Friend: That's pretty dramatic. Oh my God. I feel like I should know this one by now. I have no idea.

Michael: She rarely shrank from controversy, but it often came with consequences for her career. She once said quote, it seems to me [00:02:00] that being a star is almost like being in a type of. Prison. You have to be a good girl.

Friend: Gosh, you sounds like my kind of person, but I still can't figure out who she's,

Michael: I'm relating to her, even though I have no idea who she is. Yeah. All right. In 1992 on an appearance of SNL, she ripped up a photo of Pope John Paul II into pieces as a stance against sexual abuse.

Friend: Ade O'Connor. Ade O'Connor.

Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Ade O'Connor. What

Archival: would you characterize yourself as a happy person? Yeah. I would, I'd say I, I had a very difficult upbringing. I, I've experienced a lot of very severe abuse growing up, so it, it, again, it took me, I had to grow outta that. You know, music was a form of therapy, if you like.

'cause there was no therapy in Ireland. We didn't even have cappuccino until 1995. And so I had a lot to get off my chest. But once I got that all off my chest, then there was room for. Happiness. Yeah, I would say I'm, I'm 46 years right now. That's a lot [00:03:00] easier to be alive, I think at 46 than it is 26, isn't it?

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne. And I'm John Watts. And on this show we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today?

Schade O'Connor died 2023, age 56.

John Watts. Welcome back to Famous and Gravy.

John: Hello. Thank you

Michael: for having me. So, as I was thinking about, who am I going to invite on for the Schine O'Connor episode, I was thinking it has to be somebody who gets Gen X because she is such a Gen X figure. Does she kind of remind you of a girl you might have gone to high school with?

Oh, 100000%.

John: Yeah, she [00:04:00] looked like she just snatched her out of a mall in the Midwest. The doc Martins, the jeans, the, uh, the whole garb, gen X icon,

Michael: the cigarettes, the attitude, everything about her. Yeah. I mean, this is one of those episodes where I'm as excited to talk about her biography as I am about how we remember her story and how we misremember her story, because she's somebody who needs a major reevaluation.

So maybe let's just get to it. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Shana O'Connor, the outspoken Irish singer songwriter, known for her powerful, evocative voice as showcased in her biggest hit, a breathtaking rendition of prince's. Nothing compares to you, and for her political provocations on stage and off has died.

She was 56. Wow. There's a lot of commas in this sentence. One, two. Yeah, it's comma forward. 3, 4, [00:05:00] 5. Uh, six. There are six commas in this sentence, John. Uh, yeah. Initial reactions. What are your initial reactions to this? Oh man.

John: I felt like that first independent clause gave me so much hope. And then it all went downhill from there.

Michael: Independent clause being the outspoken Irish singer songwriter, known for her powerful, evocative voice.

John: Yep. So right there I was like, yeah, give it to me. You know, do it to me, gray lady. And then they just, and then they just shit the bed after that. I thought,

Michael: okay, so, so, so why, why does this fall apart for you?

John: Okay. And, and to be fair, it's not as bad as others I've seen. I think it would've been great if they just made some tweaks. So powerful when they describe her voice. Powerful in some ways, yes. In their music. But I think when I think of powerful vocalists, I always think of like, you know, Aretha Franklin?

Friend: Yeah. Somebody who can like belt it

John: out, right. Belts. And Sinead is more vulnerable to me. She was born h haunting, ethereal, raw.

Archival: My [00:06:00] tree.

It's time we were.

John: They could have used so many other ways to describe it.

Michael: It's a little bit of a generic word in a way.

John: Yeah. But they got it with evocative 'cause I think her music was all about emotion and strong imagery, you know? So, uh, they give the writing credit to Prince in this first sentence. For some reason I just wasn't expecting this.

Like, full a PA citation of Right. Her most memorable song just dropped in there. Like, they're like, and the DOI is here's your

Michael: like Yeah. Like, why are we making noise around the fact that her best known hit was written by Prince? Isn't it wrong to not do it? I don't know. You think that you just say for the song, nothing compares to you?

I mean, yeah,

John: put it in a footnote. Whatever. Don't put it in her FI who

Michael: It's not first line of obit stuff. That's your point. We love Prince,

John: but this isn't about Prince and I just don't think it's germane to this conversation.

Michael: I [00:07:00] agree. And it almost does make her most well-known. Hit It robs it of some of the punch, right?

Yeah. It sort of takes some of the power away from how big that song was.

John: I feel like that's usually an annoying fact that a straight man shares if that song comes on the radio. You know? It's like, okay, cool. Yeah. Thanks Brad.

Michael: You know this was written by Prince, don't you? I

John: bet, yeah. Oh, you guys know this was written by Prince, which she didn't write, so

Michael: I'm I'm just saying Yeah, I'm just saying you guys just

John: wasn't very about She didn't write it, bro.

Yeah, yeah. That was a lame one for me, but then I liked, you know, provocations

Michael: on stage and off. Oh, okay. Let me tell you what leapt out to me. They actually are explicit. This is this person known for these things. The first line of the obit is almost always like, this is what you know them for. They very, I've never seen them use the words known for, I do think they chose the two Right things.

Kind of the song nothing compares to you is the one everybody knows, whether [00:08:00] you. Sight Prince as well. You have to mention that song in the first line of her obit. The thing that I got hung up on is did they pull their punches and not saying, this is the woman who ripped up a picture of the Pope on Saturday Night Live in 1992.

She is definitely known for her political provocations on stage and off. But there is one political provocation that stands above all the rest that is actually, I think, a candidate for first line of oed maybe.

John: Oh man.

Michael: I think you have to consider it. Right? I, I just imagine them writing this first line and saying.

Do we mention her tearing up the picture to the Pope on SNL in 1992? Because honestly, that is debatable. Whether or not it belongs in the first line of her obit, it is one of the things we will always know her for.

John: Absolutely. But how are you gonna, you're gonna add more comments to this, what do you No, no, no, no, no.

This, how do you explain that in the first line? It's like, she was on Saturday Night Live and she ripped a picture of the pup.

Michael: I, I mean, I, [00:09:00] so you could have alluded to it, but whose infamous appearance on a 1992 SNL episode forever changed her career? Or the story of her or something like that? Yeah. You don't even necessarily have to say she ripped up a picture of the Pope on live tv, although you wanna allude to it a little bit more.

I don't know. They generalize it, right? Yeah. They say political provocations on and off stage. That's true. And I like that they actually say it because I think, and we will get to this in a minute, I think she's almost more of an activist than an artist in a way. I mean, oh yeah. You know, they're, they're right.

Neck and neck,

John: admittedly so. Yeah.

Michael: But that's the debate I hope they had. Do I like their solution? I don't know. Kind of feels like. There's a nod there, but this is such a famous moment. Yeah. Like this is one of the top five most memorable moments of the 1990s. This is, oh, yeah. It burned into the memory of everybody in Gen X.

You know, everybody remembers this.

John: It was on all the countdowns, right on the countdown.

Michael: Right. [00:10:00]

John: A

Michael: thousand percent. So there's a part of me that felt like they kind of were a little distant from that specific event in a way that I think they kind of should have been a little bit more proximate to it.

John: Yeah, I think you're right. It would've been fine to showcase it. I think they somehow wanted to fit in prints, but not that,

Michael: not the Pope. Yeah. I mean, it, it would've been nice to see the Prince and the Pope. Mentioned Prince. Are you gonna mention Prince? Yeah, exactly. Prince and the Pope. All right. Well, I have my score.

I'm giving it a seven out 10. I think it's got some words I like. It's got a few too many commas. I wish they were a little closer, but they did get the things we knew her for, and I do think that this was written on deadline and they mostly got it pretty good. So seven out of 10 is my score.

John: I gave it a six.

I thought it was fairly good. There were just a few things where I was like, ah, you could have just tweaked it and it would've been a lot better.

Michael: All right. Six and a seven. Let's move on. Category two. Five things I love about you here. John and I will develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who [00:11:00] this person was and how they lived.

I don't know if these are the right words or not, but I wrote down somber clarity. One of the things that I think is just important to introduce up top is that. She was right in a lot of ways. Like she, she, well, I think this has to be talked about, right? Absolutely. When, when she rips up the picture of the Pope on Saturday night, night of 1992, I didn't know until we got ready for this episode that she was protesting against sexual abuse in the church.

Um, I didn't know that either. Yeah. Right. I mean, at the time, yeah, at the time I didn't, somehow it was drowned out in like, what a crazy gal who can't believe she went on TV and ripped up a picture of the Pope, but she was actually protesting a thing that, at least in Ireland, was fairly well understood.

The reporting that came later, that was in the movie Spotlight that hadn't hit sort of US news yet. I mean, it's sort of like Harvey Weinstein or something where everybody kind of knows something's going on. Yeah. But the [00:12:00] journalists haven't. Yeah. Documented it in a way that people are complicit and knowledgeable about their culpability.

Alright, so she is proven right? Yes. Like she, whether or not you agree with this particular act of protest, what she's trying to draw attention to, she's in some sense vindicated. But when she is asked about that and when she's asked about Do you feel vindicated? Her answer is, I don't think of it that way.

What I think about are the kids who were hurt, I think about the families that were affected. And there was something about that answer that I heard in more than one place that was like, wow, I am, I was impressed before. I'm really impressed. Yeah. Now you know that like there is a opportunity there if you are Ade O'Connor to say, I told you so.

And even though everybody in the news turned against me and I was booed on stage and people said it derailed my career, but she sort of takes issue with and all that like. There's a somber [00:13:00] clarity to how she understood that and her political stances

Archival: overall. Yeah. Well, not about blaming people or attacking people, and I can see now that they're, it's not all the church, but what I'm saying is that you gotta be allowed to acknowledge what's really happening so that it can be grieved.

And That's right, Janine. That why it affects me and why you can't just flick a switch is because, like Eddie was saying earlier on, it affects you in the now all your relationships for the rest of your life. And that is to me, against God. You know, God gave us life so that we can feel alive and good and love people and love each other.

But if we haven't been shown that example by the Christ figures, be they parents or priests or whatever, we can't carry that on. You know what I mean? So

Michael: she is quite the activist. I mean, she's like an activist before Pop Singer in a way. Mm-hmm. And when people say this derailed her career, her answer to that is actually back on the right track that I, I was never meant to be a pop star.

I was meant to be an artist who wanted to draw attention to issues I care about. She's very involved. Yeah. In reproductive rights, in Ireland, there's this awesome scene [00:14:00] where Public Enemy is banned from, what was it? Like the MTV Music Awards. Did you come in? Yeah. Yeah. And she paints the Public Enemy logo on the side of her shaved head in protest, like in solidarity with early Niners rappers.

John: In her first appearance. Yeah. An American television. Yeah. She's like, you know what? Now I'll just take the opportunity. Um, she wasn't trying to ingratiate anyone.

Michael: So there's, there's a somber clarity. I don't know if those are the, the right words, but that's what I put as my thing number one. I. So what do you got for number two, John?

John: Um, I have small talk's. Worst enemy. Okay.

Michael: Say more. She was so

John: terrible at interviews. Yeah. Watched so many interviews up there and I was just like, ah, you're so bad at this. But then after I watched so many of them, I was like, no, she's just actually being herself. She didn't have like the PR coaching.

Right. Um, an interviewer. Hated to see her coming because she, she gave them nothing, you know, they would've these [00:15:00] well, and she talked

Michael: fast and she talked in that sort of, you know, monotonic Irish accent, like at two X speed. Oh yeah, yeah. Where you're sort of like, well I can't, what she coming at me and kind of quietly.

Yeah. And

John: you know, they would just ask questions like, are you excited about your new album? Well, yes and no. And are you happy sometimes, you know, just

Michael: it's like,

John: yes, she turned any question into a yes no answer. It was just kind of amazing. And so I just think she didn't have any space for bullshit and I love that she just treated interviews, like real conversations and not ads for her music or for her persona.

And, and I think she accepted the cost. So she was choosing truth over likability and that's really its own kind of courage to me. Um,

Michael: yeah, I mean, she is courageous.

John: Very courageous.

Archival: Do you think those executives are really up in arms about you? You know, a lot may have to do with the fact that you're a woman.

Friend: I, I think that certainly the industry can be extremely, uh, patronizing towards women. You're supposed to have long hair wear, pushup, [00:16:00] brass and, and lip gloss, uh, you know, and shut up and sing to a certain extent. Maybe you're right. I think maybe if I was a man, there wouldn't be such a fuss about it, you know what I mean?

It's just not expected of women, I dunno. But then nothing about me, particularly, uh, in people's minds conforms to what a woman should conform to. But I don't know if it's so much a conscious problem that they have because I'm a woman. You know, I think it's because I, I am, I'm not a conformist on any level,

Michael: and we overuse the word courageous.

We also overuse the word authenticity. But you said it a second ago. There is no space for bullshit in her life. You just don't see any room for pandering, for accommodation, for bending to anybody else's will. That feels genetic to her. Yeah, that feels like that came from a very troubled youth. This came up in the quiz where she was a bit of a delinquent teenager.

She was a bit of a kleptomaniac. Her mom beat the heck out of her. Yeah. She. Got into a lot of trouble, was in trouble with the law, that kind of stuff. But what, [00:17:00] wherever it came from, I think the words no space for bullshit are exactly the right way to put it.

John: And I think she was also, when people tried to pigeonhole her or ask her questions that were sort of like, you know, why aren't you asking me about my hair for the hundredth time?

There was that interview with Charlie Rose where he was like, I wasn't going to ask you this, but, and she's like, well then why are you asking it?

Michael: She just sort of confrontation. It's like, but I have to ask because everybody's gonna ask me why I didn't ask, so I'm asking about it. Yeah, that's was. I mean, what a baller move though too.

Right. To shave your head. In her memoir, when she describes getting her head shaved and the barber who did not want to do it, it's hilarious. He's like, please don't make me, you can't make me. And she's like, shave my head.

John: Right? And then, and she was not for the male gaze, so she, you know her. Yeah. The hairdresser that was, was saying like, what will your husband say?

What will your boyfriend say? Yeah, I'd rather, what will the, the producers say? And she was like, I don't care what they say. Yeah. This is for me, she had a very clean idea of what was bullshit and what was not. And she [00:18:00] stayed on his side of what was not. And I think that's just like, I, it's in so inspiring for somebody who is uh, a recovering people pleaser.

Archival: Yeah,

Michael: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like I would

John: need to go on there and be an interview delight. And she just had that candor. And then, you know, it was vulnerability before it was trendy, you know, she was talking openly about mental health and Yes. Gave others permission to do so later. There was just so many aspects to that where she was like, we're going to talk about real things, not what I'm wearing.

My hair.

Michael: I love that you said recovering people, pleaser. I'm the same way and I'm definitely not recovered. That's a quality that I'm still working on. I had a friend say it's not people pleasing, it's validation seeking that what you're looking for when you are. That was me. Was that you? Who said that? I don't think that was you.

It was somebody looked just like you. It, yeah. Maybe it was Ha. Have you heard that before?

John: Yeah. Approval.

Michael: Approval seeking. And we don't realize how much we're doing that, and she is not. Right. I mean, if there's one thing you can say about Shana O'Connor, she's not [00:19:00] approval seeking it. Actually, that's a pretty good segue to my thing.

Number three. All right. This is a little bit of a, I just, I'm doing this a little bit more often, bringing up 12 step stuff, and I'm not a spokesperson for 12 steps, but there is a line that is said, which is God could and would if he were sought. People get really hung up on the God idea. Sometimes I know I do.

Somebody starts talking to me about their God. I get very, very uncomfortable. But the solution is not about finding God. It's being willing to look and Ade O'Connor for her entire life is. A seeker. This turn towards Islam at the end is sort of like what? You know, like how did you find your way to Islam?

'cause she grew up Catholic. But I heard her in an interview talk about it like, look, I don't pray five times a day. I'm not strict about it. This is just where I am seeing a lot of truth. And she studies scripture, she's got a whole album called Theology Like she is dedicated to and interested in [00:20:00] spiritual matters, but in the seeking sense that the thing that I really, really like about her is that she seems to be looking for something for her whole life and.

That's a thing that I need to be reminded of one day at a time. I think I've shared with you before, I had somebody in my life who was atheist, and I'd call him up, I'd tell him my problems, and then at the end of me telling him my problems, he would say, all right, where's your God in all this? And he wasn't saying that in a sort of defensive way.

He was actually, yeah, encouraging me to look for a higher power. Mm-hmm. Of my understanding. I think that that is such a. Beautiful, wonderful and important and fundamental prompt that we can all live by one day at a time. Are you looking, and I see that in Schade O'Connor.

John: I saw the same thing. I also saw a lot of kind of also referencing the 12 steps She was seeking this God of her understanding.

Michael: Yes.

John: So again, she just such a rebel in so many ways, but she was like, you know, I'm going to find what is right. [00:21:00] In these religions and what is meaningful to me and take that and internalize it and make that part of my life. And it was very secure about that. And not sort of saying, well, you know, oh, I'm a cafeteria Catholic.

She wasn't worried about, you know, about it looking sort of a certain way. It was just like this, these are the things that are, that matter to me about the spirituality. And she was very in tune with, in, in Catholicism, the Holy Spirit and not so much about the dogma of the church.

Archival: What I learned from the church, really the, the reason I've been vocal about things is that I, I have a very, very strong relationship with the Holy Spirit, which I would not have if not for the church.

If you are in an intense relationship with the Holy Spirit, you understand that you have to stand for that spirit no matter what the material costs may be, or no matter whether you might get a bad name or people will treat you badly or whatever. So I'm not here to win a popularity contest, is how I see it.

John: She was looking for what was the beauty of the religions and, and really taking hold on that. I [00:22:00] think there's something to be said about that. If we, if we can't find something of our own understanding, we really can't connect.

Michael: Yeah, exactly. We have to

John: start there and, and I think that that's really a, a great way to seek.

Michael: All right. What do you got for number four?

John: Okay. I have art from the aftermath. Mm. Oh, that's a good, okay. That's kind of what we were talking about before. Say more. Yeah. It sort of piggybacks on what you were talking about with the abuse that she endured by her mother. Um, she talks a lot about that in her memoir.

As I was reading her memoir, it read like song lyrics to me. The, that really got me started on this idea of she just has this incredible inner life that she was able to channel. In a creative way. So I think childhood trauma often pushes people inward. Yeah. Um, and they build these huge inner worlds that can feel safer than the outside.

And that inner world can power creativity, but it can also really go left. It can turn into looping thoughts and rumination, anxiety, depression. And some folks [00:23:00] also cope by zoning out or disassociating. And over time that coping mechanism can really start to run the show. And so not everyone responds in the same way, but with Sinead.

She could channel that pain into really beautiful storytelling and art, um, through her voice and through this book that I, I, I just thought was astounding.

Michael: Rememberings her.

John: Yeah, her memoir, remember Rememberings, her memoir I just thought was so beautifully written so that art can come from that depth, but it can go one of many ways.

But this way she was somehow able to sort of pull out and channel that inner life into art. That was her escape.

Michael: I love that you're bringing this up. This has been sort of an open question on my mind. I've gotten myself into a conversation with somebody the other day about the kind of myth of the troubled artist, right?

Mm-hmm. Um, there is a kind of idea in creativity that you have to have a certain amount of trauma to qualify. [00:24:00] I think that one, that doesn't necessarily need to be true. Two, no. We all have enough trauma if you look close enough. Uh, and number three, okay. Is true. In some instances I see people who have troubled backgrounds and troubled histories and a lot of trauma and a lot of mental health problems creating extraordinary art.

That's more than a little bit of a pattern. That is something that is easy to observe everywhere. What is not clear to me is whether or not you're actually processing those emotions through art or just displaying them.

Archival: But if you ask me, am I uncomfortable with being so open, I'm not because I feel that's an artist's job.

And I feel human beings shouldn't be afraid to be open. Do you know what I mean? About all sorts of things and to be intimate with each other that we have. We live under this illusion of separateness. We're not at all separate. We all are exactly the same. We all feel, we all go through the same things.

And to me it's an artist's job to show those things, but I don't give away as much as you think I do. [00:25:00] You see, I'm actually quite protective, you know, of my soul in a lot of ways.

Michael: Right. Is it actually therapeutic? I think that can go either way. Right? I think it might be therapeutic and it might just be out but not resolved, you know?

Yeah. And those are two different things.

John: Art therapy is very well known, um, sort of process to, to work through trauma. Um, have you

Michael: ever done any of that?

John: No, I've never done it, but it's a degree. Yeah. You can get a degree in art therapy. It's very research based and effective.

Michael: I guess I need to learn more about this 'cause I'm certainly curious about it, but it seems to me that it only works if there is an integration and is sense making after the creative process has reached some output.

Yeah. Has reached some output or some outcome of some sort. I love that. All right. No, that's a great number four. All right. I'll give you my number five. I'll just say it again. We're all crazy, John. We are all crazy. And, uh, here's the thing is that I, I, I look back at the Shena O'Connor story and it [00:26:00] is very clear that there was a media firestorm after the SNL event.

Mm-hmm. Right. And that, you know, we put this story on her. What a crazy lady. She's got a shaved head. I guess that's just artists or whatever. She does actually have mental health problems. Yes. But I look around my adult life, John, and I can't find anybody who doesn't qualify for something. Right. You know, varying degrees of severity, varying degrees of sickness.

But I don't know anybody who wouldn't benefit from a little therapy. You know? Absolutely. And, and, and she, why

John: are you looking at me so intently when you say that? It's totally fine,

Michael: only because you happen to be in front of me. But Ade reminded me of that. We, we sometimes. Call somebody crazy to dismiss if we do that, John, we're dismissing everybody, and I think what what was missed is that she was trying to draw attention to actual injustices.

When we say, oh, that person is just crazy, then that [00:27:00] means we're not doing the work of actually saying, yeah, but do they have a point? Because we're all crazy. We all have something somewhere, and we could all use some help, and we all need a little bit more forgiveness and grace in how our lives and our actions are interpreted.

She's somebody who, to me, is so worthy of a certain level of forgiveness and so deserving of a certain level of redemption, even though she's an imperfect person. What's that saying? Everybody you meet is fighting a war that you know nothing about.

John: Right. You know?

Michael: Yeah. I was reminded of that.

John: So to give people some grace.

Yeah. And here's, and it's the

Michael: whole like what does a celebrities life story teach us about ourselves? This is what I learned in getting ready for this episode.

John: Right. But can I just say too that it just really pisses me off that we were so quick to call her crazy when she was doing things that if a man did it, we would call it noble.

Um, you know, she wasn't the first person to say something in protest on a stage or No. Um, to refuse to go [00:28:00] on after the national anthem, but other male artists ever doing that. And it was sort of noble. I think we, we called it crazy and she was a hysterical woman, essentially. The backlash

Michael: against her is very gender.

Yeah.

John: Yes. And so later on she's like, actually I, I, I do have mental illness, but that was not, that part about the protest was not part, but I

Michael: was still right about the Catholic church, but I'm still right about

John: everything. Yeah. Ever fucking said. Totally, totally. So you thought I was crazy for the wrong reasons.

Yeah, basically. So that has to be said that we were. Horrible to Schine O'Connor. Yeah. In the nineties. Horrible. And that, you know, she was right and she did have mental illness. But it is the idea too that you're mentioning that, you know, we just need to give people more grace in Yeah. In our, our day to day and know that everyone's fighting some kind of battle.

Michael: Okay, let's, uh, recap. So number one, I said somber clarity. Number two, you said terrible interviewee. How would you say it?

John: What'd you say? For number two, it was small [00:29:00] talk's, worst enemy,

Michael: small talk. Number two, small talks. Worst enemy. That's good. Number three, I, spiritual Quest could and would if they're sought.

Uh, number four, you said

John: art from the aftermath.

Michael: And number five I said, we're all crazy. And that's the point. And let's never forget it. All right. Great list. Let's take a break.

Hey, famous and gravy listeners, Michael Osborne here. This show is produced by 14th Street Studios, which is a production and consulting firm focused on creative development. We take ideas and shape them into podcasts that people want to hear. Famous and Gravy has been an incredible success story, and we believe it's built on a foundation of strong ideas, smart editing, and knowing your audience.

So if you've been carrying around a podcast idea or you want to make your existing show stronger, we would love to work with you. Send me an email [00:30:00] atMichael@famousandgravy.com. Category three. One Love. In this category, John and I will each choose one word or phrase that characterizes Sinead O'Connor's loving relationships.

First, we'll review what we know about the marriages and the kids. Gets a little complicated here for marriages. The first to John Reynold, 1987 and 91 Sade's 24 when they divorce. He's a music producer who co-wrote and produced several of her albums. They stay close for her entire life. They had one son born, 1987.

Marriage number two, journalist Nicholas Summerland. Sinead was 34 when they got married. 37 when they got divorced. Fourth was to musician Steve Cooney. Sinead was 43. They divorced when she was 44, only married a year. And the fourth marriage, Barry, he was her therapist. Uh, they were divorced in I didn't know that.

Yeah. Married 2009. Oh, I forgot. No, I

John: forgot that.

Michael: Separated a few days later. And so when she passed away, she was not married. Four kids and four different fathers. Her third child died by suicide shortly before she died about 18 months before she did. Okay. Whew. [00:31:00] So. I struggled here to come up with a good metaphor, but I have really been enjoying more and more using this category to try and find some little artifact or some bit of history that I didn't know anything about.

I was looking for something Irish, and as part of a brainstorm, I discovered a boat called a kak. This is a. Irish boat that is used to cross rough seas. It's sort of like a canoe. It's very fragile, but it is seaworthy. Each one is apparently slightly different. There's not one shape to the carac, so there's no single blueprint.

AKs were used to cross between islands not meant to stay moored in one place. There's something very independent about her family life. Some of the men she has children with, she stays close to some of them, not she and Daniel Dad Lewis almost had a thing, but apparently she pissed them off. Around the time of the last Mohicans, she and Peter Gabriel were an item for a while.

It was rumored that she was hooking up with Anthony Kitas. Turns out she disputes that and then, [00:32:00] I mean, this is not part of it at all, but her Prince story is crazy. Did you come across this? Yeah. Yeah. Like Prince is like, like mind tripping her at Prince's house. Yeah, and, and she like. I mean, he was like, let's have a pillow fight and there's like a some hard object in the pillow and she calls him fluffy cuffs, which is funny and fluffy cuffs.

John: I was like, I'm saving that. I know you're saving that look out.

Michael: And she like runs out of the mansion and has to hitchhike to a nearby house. Like she was like a crazy story. Anyway, yeah, this single boat thing, there's something very independent that's very consistent with how we perceive her. I do think that she is charting her own course.

That's one of the reasons I liked this metaphor of this Irish boat. I see her as kind of a lone captain. I don't think she's unloved, but I do think that she struggles to be in community and be surrounded by. Love in a way, even though I think her heart is [00:33:00] very big and open.

John: Right. And there's some issue with attachment maybe.

Yeah. In her life where it's, I'm gonna keep trying.

Michael: Yeah.

John: Uh, but it's not sticking.

Michael: The way she talks about her love life in her memoir seems to come with a tremendous amount of self-awareness. She doesn't exactly say I struggle to be attached. I think she just almost takes it at as a given that she is somebody who is not easily, you know, paired off.

But one of the things that's been coming up for me on Famous and Gravy more and more lately, we're not supposed to always pair off. And I don't know who Sinead O'Connor's counterpart would or should have been, you know? Um, so maybe this is as it should be. Yeah. And for what it's worth, I wanna ride in a Carac, this Irish boat.

I like an Sounds nice. Yeah. I like boats. All right. What do you got?

John: Okay, so it's more of a phrase than a word. Okay.

Michael: Okay.

John: I just put stubbornly hopeful.

Michael: Yeah. Okay.

John: Um, she's like a Paddington Bear of romance. Yeah,

Michael: that's what, that's what should've gone with [00:34:00] Paddington. Bear of Romance. Paddington Bear.

John: I went with Paddington Bear.

She's so stubbornly hopeful.

Michael: Hang on, hang on. So where's that coming from? I mean, I think I see that

John: it's just my reaction to it. You know, if you're coming from a place of being almost 45 and still single, and you look at somebody who, who, and you're at, at some point you're kinda like, ugh. It's just, uh, it's not in the cards, you know, for me.

Yeah. And it's probably just not worth the effort anymore. I look at other people who've tried and even maybe had really embarrassing experiences, marriages, divorces, or things that they would, you know, wish hadn't happened. Kept going. Yeah. And so I, I, I love seeing that from other people. That's

Michael: interesting.

It sort of sounds related to my earlier point about good and what if he were sought.

John: Yeah. It goes back to your seeker. She's still gonna seek, even if she runs into a barrier, you know, if, if we've learned anything from Jean, it's that she's not afraid of failing or, or of humiliation. Or humiliation or of, [00:35:00] uh, of looking silly.

She just keeps going. Yeah. And I, I think there's, that to me is just really inspiring. Looking at someone who's saying, you know, I'm just gonna keep on keeping on and I'm gonna, if I find love, great and I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna keep seeking it though.

Michael: Do you think of yourself as a stubborn person?

John: No, I'll just, I lay down and just let my, I, yeah.

I show everyone my belly and I'm just like, don't make me do any more work. Um, we're good here. I'm, I'm fine. Yeah. And I, no, I absolutely not. I'm a pushover. Yeah. I'm a total pushover. And that's why reading about her and watching all of these interviews and learning about her, I was just like, God, John, get it together.

Stand for something in your life. You,

Michael: I mean, she's challenging that way. I am intimidated by Shana O'Connor. Yeah. But I'm intimidated by any. Body who is this level of activist? Because the thing is, there's a part of me that knows they have a good point and am I going to the links that they are to stand up for what's right and justice, right?

I don't know that I have the [00:36:00] wherewithal to put myself out there in this kind of way, and the world needs people who do this, you know? Right. All right. Stubbornly hopeful. I love that. All right, let's move on. Category four, net worth. In this category, John and I will each write down our numbers ahead of time.

We'll talk a little bit about our reasoning, and then we'll look up the net worth number in real time to see who's closest. Finally, we will place Schine O'Connor on the famous and gravy net worth leaderboard. I did not know how to think about this. I didn't look for comps, which I probably should have done.

To me, it seemed like most of the money was coming from performance. Her biggest hit was Princess Song I, she had a lot of albums and I definitely think she had a larger following than I appreciated. Not just because I didn't know all of the stuff that didn't make it onto the radio, but I think she was also much bigger in Europe.

Yes. Than she was in the US and she's performing quite a lot, we should say, when this hasn't come up yet. She does have a hysterectomy without any hormone treatment in the two thousands, and she talks about all [00:37:00] but losing her mind for several years.

Archival: The assumption is that people who are suicidal or are mentally ill, that's not necessarily the case at all.

Perhaps 50% of people have suicidal ideation as a symptom of an illness. The other 50% are suicidal because something really shit is going on in their lives. There was shit going on in my life that drove me a bit mental. In the midst of which I had a radical hysterectomy, which would drive anyone mental, it's over.

Thanks for to God. And the great thing about growing mental is you get sane again. You know?

Michael: And then she also has fibromyalgia. Mm-hmm. She has got some real, not just mental, but also physical health challenges that come up throughout her life. When those come up, you have to imagine she's going back out on the road to replenish the bank account, but she's also very clearly not driven by money.

So all of that had me at a fairly modest number that those were some of the things I was thinking about going into this. Anything else you want to throw into the mix?

John: I just know at the end, you know, she had a very modest home in a small seaside down in [00:38:00] Ireland. Living fairly simply. I don't know what her overhead looked like at that point.

Right, right,

Michael: right.

John: It's, yeah. When you said looking for comparisons, I was like, uh, nothing compares to you.

Michael: Yes. I see what you did there. I see what you did there. See me. That's pretty good. All right. Let's go ahead and reveal, so John Watts wrote down 5 million.

John: Michael Osborne wrote down 9 million.

Michael: The actual net worth for Caid O'Connor is estimated to be around 1 million at the time of her death.

Wow. Okay. I won. Yeah, you won. You won this, huh? Well done, sir. Okay. You know, that makes sense. This woman was not wealth seeking and that she is north of a million, you know? Great. Yeah, it's kind of great. Right. I will say this puts her pretty far down on the famous eng gravy net worth leaderboard. This puts her almost at the very bottom.

We have one person above her, which was Diego Marna, the soccer player who, uh, [00:39:00] had a bit of a cocaine problem. Mm-hmm. Um, so that'll empty

John: those pockets. Yeah.

Michael: But I, you know what? She wants to be there, I think, you know, is, is she all

John: by herself?

Michael: She's all by herself. Aw, yeah. Yeah. But that kind of, I don't know.

Yeah. I feel a little bit bad

John: about that. Yeah. I don't want her to be by herself. Okay. But yeah,

Michael: I will say what's sort of surprising about that is that this does not correlate with how well we remember her name for it to be. This though, almost feels like she had to turn down opportunities.

John: You're right.

She had, toward the end, she was in and out of the, a mental hospital. Yeah. She sought treatment

Michael: for marijuana addiction at one point. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

John: Yeah. I mean, and

Michael: there's some real, like this, it's a little hard. There's a lot of pain throughout her life. Yeah. You know, and there's a lot of needing help and needing support and having be to be the one to supply it for herself.

Okay, let's move on. Category five, little Lebowski, urban Achievers.

Archival: They're the little Lebowski, urban achievers. Yeah. The achievers. Yes. And proud. We are of all of them

Michael: in this category, John and I will [00:40:00] each choose a trophy, an award, a cameo, an impersonation, or some other form of a hat tip that shows a different side of this person.

She was asked to contribute a version of the song Dagger to My Heart, to a 2003 tribute to Dolly Parton. She, I know she's on a Dolly Parton tribute album.

John: I didn't, I didn't hear

Michael: that. And Dolly wrote to her, this is what Dolly said. Well, I have always loved you anyhow, but now I love you more. This is a letter dated 2003.

I absolutely love how you sang Dagger Through the Heart, man Alive. I feel that through and through. I love that Dolly Parton said, man alive. Man alive. I can hear now. No, isn't that great like that? There's a She O'Connor tribute to a Dolly Parton song and she lo she's got a thing for country music.

Actually her tastes are really eclectic. She loves reggae. Big Bob Dylan fan. Dylan was like her. I mean her number one guy with the SNL moment, the song she sang was [00:41:00] Bob Marley's Song War. She's got a real interest in reggae and that she's on a Dolly Parton tribute album I think is just fantastic for everybody involved.

On one hand you're dealing with a woman who shaped her head and like is defying gender norms. And then you've got on the other side of that Dolly Parton.

John: Yeah. And sort of doing for feminism. Yes. Uh, they've both been kind of icons of feminism.

Michael: That's a good point, John. They do represent like a spectrum of empowered woman.

You know? Mm-hmm. All right. What'd you have from Lebowski?

John: Oh, okay. So I had her role as the Blessed Virgin Mary in the movie, the Butcher Boy, Neil Jordan directed this in 1997. So this was after this SNL episode. Have you seen the movie?

Michael: No. I don't know this, I, this movie rings a Justin Bell, but remind me.

John: So because she was so known for her sort of ethereal music and activism, um, she brought this really amazing kind of energy to this role and sort of this empathy and I think spiritual depth [00:42:00] as the blessed Virgin Mary. And I think they chose to cast her, despite all this controversy surrounding her, her protest against the Catholic Church.

And Neil Jordan was one a, a friend of hers, and defended the casting, even though there was a lot of pushback interesting about it. And her presence in the film just adds a lot of emotional weight. This film that really explores elements of trauma, mental illness, childhood suffering, and really sort of stands to me as this.

Testament of her artistry and humanity for her.

Michael: You know what's so interesting about Shana O'Connor right now to me, is that I do feel like from the mid nineties onward, there have been various attempts to reshape the narrative around her. There was this documentary that came out very recently that was in that vein that she died so young and well, and that, that her son died by suicide Shortly after was like, oh, okay, let's, let's give that some time [00:43:00] before we mm-hmm.

Knock on the door of the Shne O'Connor story again. And then she died this young death. In fact, when I was telling, uh, Allison, my wife that we were gonna do this episode, she's like, Shana O'Connor died. Like there's something out of sync between. The need to reclaim her story and retell her story and look at it differently and the events of her life.

Like we, we can't seem to find the right moment to rewrite the Shene O'Connor story, you know? Mm-hmm. And that this sounds like an early attempt at that, in a way, this, this movie.

John: Yeah. I think that it really was to help visualize the spirituality of this woman, and she was deeply spiritual. And I think also is to say that again, Sinead was right.

Um, she was right all along, and she still can be this spiritual entity in this film, even though she has the disagrees so much with this faith. And you

Michael: kind of see that in her, like you actually don't need to look very far in her to recognize that [00:44:00] pursuit and that authenticity. Mm-hmm. Like, it's pretty self-evident,

John: you know?

Oh, yeah.

Michael: Um, all right. Let's take one more break.

Category six words to live by in this category, John and I will each choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said about them.

John: Okay? This came out of an interview. It really spoke to me. My first musical memory is my father's singing to me Scarlet Ribbons. It's an old Irish tune.

I used to remember being blown away. I remember it like yesterday, lying on my pillow and my dad singing this song to me. I was like. Oh my God, the angels came to my window for me. There's something about this that really spoke to me about her. One is that from reading her book, she has a real connection with her child self.

Michael: Yes. I almost had this on my five things, that there is a, there's a sort of almost inner child on display with her.

John: Yeah. If I wasn't in my right mind, [00:45:00] I would've thought that she was actually five years old reading her the audio book. She was right. It was beautiful. The way she could sort of become a child.

Mm-hmm. And I think the other thing here is it sort of seemed like the seed of her spirituality, mixing song and spirituality, she felt the presence of God when her father sang to her. One of her, her earliest memories that made so much sense to me was, you know, not only this artistic outlet to help reframe her trauma.

But it was actually a spiritual experience for her to connect with music in this way. And just the way she also describes everything to me sounds like a, a song lyric, you know? Oh my God, the angels came to the window, you know, it was just so beautiful and it's illustrative and it just grabbed me and it felt like it said so many different things that I already kind of knew about her, but I think just encapsulated so much.

Michael: Yeah, no, I think encapsulates the right word. It's not. The first time I've heard this idea, of course, of combining a [00:46:00] childlike perspective with music and with a spiritual pursuit. But to see it in her made, made me want to stop and listen to music. That there are things that get expressed in music, that do not work in spoken word language, and it is coming from some deep, soulful place.

And you see that in her through and through. It's hard to say all that without it sounding kind of cliche. Yeah. But uh, but I felt that too, reading her book and listening to her talk about her relationship to music. So I love that quote, John. I think that's beautiful.

John: Yeah. It also just was so important to me because it felt like she was so good at connecting those dots for herself.

And I'm not good at that. You

Michael: know, I'm like, what?

John: What? What's made me who I am today? I'm never like, oh, let me go and think about that and get back to you. It couldn't have been just eating Doritos on the couch and watching MacGyver when I was a kid. Like was I just, and so I, but she just, she might have been, I probably had a [00:47:00] little something to do with it, you know what I mean?

Michael: In a funny way that does circle back to this world crazy thing. It's confusing to me how. Some people who can struggle so much with their own mental health are actually right on point with how other people might choose to live a better life, you know? Mm-hmm. It's weird when somebody gives great advice that they cannot seem to self apply.

And I don't know if that's true with her, but it, it's true with you. Uh, so

you give, actually that's not true at all. But you do give great advice, John. It's funny 'cause sometimes I hear your voice of self-criticism, but every time I come to you for advice, I hear great stuff and I, something I want for you, for what it's worth, is to be able to apply your own wisdom that you can put to other people and that you can give to other people, to yourself.

'cause it's funny that there's, that, that disconnect exists at all, and this is definitely more of a John Watts point than a Shana O'Connor point. But I'm glad I Hey, thank

John: [00:48:00] you. I appreciate that. It's very You're welcome. Nice. Okay. But yeah, I, it's coming from a

Michael: loving place. I hope, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

John: Oh no, totally.

And I think that that's true. It's so much better to have it come from someone who's actually had walked the walk, you know? Yeah. And didn't just hear, uh, didn't just read a Brene Brown book. Right, right. You got the cliff to made

Michael: flashcards, and I've got some, I've got some stuff for you. Okay. Well, I'll give you my words to live by.

She said, my creative process is quite slow. I hear melodies in my head while I'm washing the dishes, and I allow my subconscious to do the work. I don't know why I like that so much other than something I do in my work as a producer is wait for inspiration. And sometimes I feel like I have to introduce a level of distraction in my life, like doing the dishes to almost allow a side part of my mind to, to come forth and come out.

And something that I feel like I've had to learn about inspiration is [00:49:00] that I can't demand it, and I almost have to look away to bring it right in front of my eyes. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so there was something in this quote that captured that it's, it's a slow process. I hear 'em in my head while I'm washing the dishes.

I allow my subconscious to do the work.

Archival: I was listening to one of the early albums that songwriting, I mean, it must have been like being possessed by fire. I felt a bit like I didn't, I felt like an imposter. I felt like I didn't really understand why people like the songs. They fell outta me. I didn't try to write them.

Do you know what I'm saying? They just fell out. I was really messed up in the head, so I just flocked it all into music. You know? How

Michael: do you allow your subconscious, didn't your subconscious, like on auto pipe, do we have any control? But it is our subconscious that we need for our creative output.

John: It does happen.

Like where all a sudden the answer there? No, I absolutely agree. If I can, it can take a second to just look away from it. It it either the problem dies on the vine. Yeah. Um, or I get the answer right or

Michael: the right [00:50:00] part comes and this is also something that they talk about. And the 12 steps is an intuitive answer will emerge when our heart and our mind is in the right place.

Right? Mm-hmm. Um, we come to rely on that. Okay. Uh, let's move on. Category seven, man in the mirror. This category asks a fairly simple question. Did this person like their reflection? Yes or no? This is not about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment. There's a world in which you make this really hard and maybe it is really hard.

I do think this woman experienced a lot of. Pain as a child. I think that her mom is a real problematic figure and her mom kind of blocked her off from her dad for a number of years. It's a bit of a broken household. Then her mom dies very young in a car accident right before Sinead starts making albums.

I think any woman in 1987 who's saying, shave my head, I'm good with it. I'm inclined to say yes. She liked her reflection because I do think that [00:51:00] there is a sense of self in her that she's in touch with, but I also feel pretty certain that there's some element of self-loathing as well. I think she would say as much too.

So in a way it's a coin toss. Uh, I am giving benefit of the doubt and saying I think she likes her reflection, but I could go. The other way. How'd you think through this, right?

John: Yeah, I had the same with anyone. Of course it's gonna say, well, on what day, but I think there was, you know, with, she had the battle with her complex, you know, health all over her, you know, throughout her body.

Inside and out. Yeah, inside and out. But I think in the end, you look at someone who is. That fully realized as a person to me. Yeah. In a way, when I look at her, I see like someone who stands on business and, and knows who she is and isn't afraid to tell you. And that is a through line. It's not like I just saw it when things were going really well before the Pope picture on SNL.

It was her whole lifetime. So yes, I think she liked her image, New York, which is not

Michael: to say her life wasn't hard. I mean, she'll be [00:52:00] the first to tell you. I think it was hard, you know, I'm, I'm not just talking about the trauma. I think also being the butt of jokes. Being the object of ridicule. I mean, one thing that men talking about being violent with her, Frank Sinatra, Joe Pesci, the week after the SNL, like, it's sort of like are really,

Archival: I mean, why should I let it bother me?

Right. It wasn't my show, it was Tim Robbins' show. But I'll tell you one thing, she was very lucky it wasn't my show. 'cause if it was my show. I would've gave us such a smack,

I would've grabbed the buyer, uh, eyebrows

Michael: to me like looking back and you're like, oh my God, the world really. Was in a place, I mean, I don't know, maybe we're regressing, but I kind of couldn't believe how bad it got for her in terms of what people were saying and how much she was the butt of jokes. For me, this category is a question of [00:53:00] how loud is the voice of self-doubt.

I think that there is a voice of self-doubt, and I don't think it is as loud as the voice of integrity. And that's how I answered this question. Yeah. So, yeah,

John: I agree. I totally agree. Yeah.

Michael: All right. Category eight coffee cocktail or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most wanna do with our dead celebrity.

She did go to rehab because she couldn't stop smoking pot. Yeah. Um, which is like, that's the one I want. I wanna be high with Sinead and experience music and get in touch with the language of spirituality through her music. And even though she has a problematic relationship with cannabis, I think I'm gonna go cannabis here.

It doesn't need to be real potent. When I was, uh, in, uh, high school, we used to roll these little tiny, we call 'em penners. You know, it's just a little thin joint and sometimes you'd mix a little bit of tobacco in it. And it was just, just a little, little something, just a little something.

John: Take the edge off just a little something to

Michael: take the edge off.

That's, that's the scene I want with Sade. I want some music. I [00:54:00] would love to actually have her help me put together a playlist. 'cause I see her taste as very eclectic. I love that. She's into reggae and public into me and Waylon Jennings and Dolly Parton. I'm sure there's some old Irish ballots in there somewhere.

I know she's, it's not totally her type of music, but I love that Irish folk music. I would love to get high with Sade and put together a playlist. So that's my answer here. Mm-hmm. I

John: love that. Yeah. I also picked cannabis. Okay. So, yeah, we were not a good book. Did, did Jake come?

Michael: Come on. I'll roll you a pinner man.

We can all, let's get a pinner going

John: and I'll listen to the playlist. But I was thinking, are we allowed to time travel? Sure. Of course. Yeah. Okay. I wanted to go back to Dublin eighties, and I wanted to get in the get up. I wanted to go full. This is like, this

Friend: is like war zone Dublin too, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is full on IRA time.

John: Yeah. Uh, I wanna, but I want to get my punk rock kind of garb together. I'm gonna do some like wide pant, you know, holy sweater and the chains. Yes. I'm [00:55:00] gonna do some eye, you know, I'm gonna put an eyeliner on

Friend: I I the eyeliner

John: on, maybe a lip goes outside. Maybe a lip.

Friend: Yeah,

John: maybe. So she's gonna do her thing.

We're gonna, we're gonna get, get together, smoke a, a pinner, and then we're gonna go out and busk on the street and she's gonna play guitar. Love this. I'm singing with Ade This

Michael: Love this. Oh, this is a scene. This is a scene. This is,

John: yeah. We're, I think we're gonna get on the streets and we're gonna bust, we're gonna get the hat out.

Mm-hmm. People are going to throw us some coins and we're gonna sing together. That's what I wanna do with Ade and I wanna, yeah, I wanna get it together, which like. Uh, some good, she had some great folk music.

Michael: Yeah. Just

John: beautiful folk. All right, I'm gonna,

Michael: I have a confession. Mm-hmm. As I was getting ready for this episode, I was coming home from work the other day, driving home in traffic, and I thought, am I too old to get singing lessons?

So, I'm, I, it's not that I think I could do it, John, but am I too, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put that question to You're not, I'm not too old, right? Absolutely not. Have you ever done something? You have a

John: beautiful voice. Thank you. Have a beautiful speaking voice. I bet you give [00:56:00] us a, give us a, give us a little like No, I just, the line,

Michael: I, I, no, not right now.

I couldn't possibly

absolutely not doing that. Fine. But have you ever. Taking singing classes. Oh yeah.

John: Really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Do you sing a lot? Yeah. I mean, I went to the Webster Conservatory for Theater Arts, also known as Gay Sleepaway Camp. And we, I took lessons for four. You went to gay to Away camp? Yes.

College. Oh, that's very great. Oh, yeah. And so, yeah, you, I took, uh, four years of voice lessons.

Michael: Oh, okay. So you're very practiced at this. We're gonna go

John: out there. Yeah. I'm just, but I gotta just work on it. But

Michael: isn't it a great thing to sing? I guess this is where the fantasy is coming from. It's like, I will sing to myself, I'll pick up the guitar and I'll sing a little bit.

But it goes back to that question of release. I know there's output. I don't know if there's processing, but I think there can be separate from playing an instrument, the physicality of really. Going for it. No matter how good or bad your voice is, feels like a really healthy thing for a body to do.

John: It does do something.

There's a [00:57:00] vibration that goes through your body. Yeah. When you actually sing and you mean it, you know, not fake singing or funny singing and you mean that vibration? She even talks about this in her book, uh, it's sort of this vibration. She felt God in that vibration. Whether or not you feel God, you, you at least feel like it gets your blood moving.

I think totally through that vibration, through the breathing. You can even get lightheaded by singing. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I think it's a beautiful, uh, way to sort of use your body to open things up.

Michael: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think I need.

John: You should do it. I say go for it. Yeah. Alright. All. You know what? Let's both play.

Let's both do it.

Michael: I'm game for it man. I'd game for it. Okay. This sounds great. And then can

John: we sing a duet you and I

Michael: sing to

John: and maybe record it?

Michael: We might be pushing past my comfort zone in a couple places, but maybe we'll talk about it. Alright.

John: You think about it. Just sleep on that.

Michael: All right. I think we've arrived.

Category nine, the Vander beak named after James Vander Beak, who famously said in varsity blues, I don't want. You're live in that varsity blue scene, James makes a judgment that he does not want a certain kind of life based [00:58:00] on just a few characteristics. So here John and I will form a rebuttal to anyone skeptical of how Sinead O'Connor lived.

Let's go through the counter argument. I do not want a media firestorm against me, and even though I think she stood in her integrity, I think it was hard, and I think she would tell you that as well. I certainly don't want this amount of pain. She experienced a lot of loss in her life. Losing a son. It's hard to imagine how anything could be more painful.

And I do think that there is an isolation in the loneliness that surrounds her, and maybe that's part of her disposition. That's maybe how it was always going to be. I don't know. Those are three pretty compelling reasons when James VanDerBeek says, I don't want your life. If that's where he's coming from.

I get it. I get

John: it. Yeah, I get it.

Michael: So let's offer a rebuttal to James Vander beak. Mm-hmm. Number one man is stand in your integrity. I, I don't know what those last days were like. I don't know if her head hit the pillow at night with her saying, I met peace [00:59:00] with myself, but I see that, and God Almighty, that's all I want.

Mm-hmm. I mean, I don't think peace came to her easy, but I think she's fighting for that. And yeah, I'd like to imagine that she's experiencing it and I think that that's evident in her artistic output. I think that's evident in her spiritual seeking. It's a through line of her life and that. Is not just a little bit admirable or desirable, that is foundationally admirable or desirable.

And so that's reason number one,

John: core human principle, I think. Yeah. That, yeah, she was so, the phrase fully integrated person comes to mind. Even though she had all of these pieces of her that felt maybe to her broken or difficult or harsh, she took everything and knew. What made her her? Yeah. Based on all of those things and that not a lot of people can say that.

Michael: No, and I fully integrated is an interesting [01:00:00] term. I mean, I think that there is this idea that there is the human condition that is a problem to be solved. I don't think there is a solution. Somebody sent me a 15 minute Alan Watts lecture the other day all about this that was fascinating and confusing as Alan Watts often is, and one of the things that I came to is that it really is in this semi paradoxical idea of God could and would if he were sought.

That is not a religious statement. That's not saying go to church. That's not saying go do a religious text. That is a question of are you looking for meaning and purpose in a higher power in your life one day at a time? That. Journey itself is the only answer you ever get. There's no complete integration, but there more you are doing that the more you appear fully integrated.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. The more I look at her and see that the more astounded I am and the more impressed I am, it's almost the end of the. Argument to [01:01:00] me. Mm-hmm. For do you want this life? Yes. I want that. I want integrity. I want purpose. I want seeking, I want meaning, and I want as much full integration as I can find.

John: Yeah.

Michael: With some grace. Recognizing that I'm still human and flawed.

John: Exactly. I want her willingness. Yeah. To no matter what she was gonna do, what she wanted to do with her career, she was going to seek, even though she found so many issues with what she was finding in her spiritual life, she was gonna keep going.

Um, she was willing to show up.

Michael: I'll give a second reason. That's much smaller and external, and I don't even think she would care about this, but she was right. Her stances are largely vindicated. Maybe you don't like her specific protestations or actions, but where she was coming from, she had a point. And I don't know how important it is to be on your deathbed and to say, I knew I was right, but it can't, can't hurt, you know?

So, yeah,

John: I [01:02:00] mean, definitely. Yeah, they should. Right? Like that's so good. You and I are like, whoa, that would be the only thing I'd ever need that all I want

Michael: is to die saying I told you so that's told you so bye.

John: Exactly.

Michael: Go down. Go down. Uh, but it is a reason and it's worth. Yeah. I think that's all we need.

Yeah. With that James Vander beak, I'm Sade O'Connor and you want my life.

All right, before we close, if you enjoyed this episode of Famous and Gravy and you are enjoying our show, and if you have your phone in your hand, please take a moment to share this with a friend. We are trying to grow our podcast, one listener at a time, John speed round plugs for past shows. If people enjoyed this episode of Shana O'Connor, what might they also like?

John: I was really just gonna go with one of the more recent ones that I really loved, Waylon Jennings.

Michael: Oh, yeah. Okay, love it. Yeah, yeah,

John: yeah. Uh, it's a, it's not going too far back in the [01:03:00] archive.

Michael: No, it's not. You don't have to scroll very far to find episode 120. Crazy saying, Waylon Jennings. I love that.

Waylon's my

Friend: hero.

Michael: Fantastic. Okay. I'll give you the one that's been on my mind actually throughout the whole conversation. Cue the jean jacket and the strutting episode 87. Simply the best, Tina Turner. There is something about the Tina Turner story. There's this whole theme of vibrational energy and seeking like a shocking amount of the themes in the Schine O'Connor story are actually also present in the Tina Turner episode.

Simply the best, uh, 87. Great

John: call.

Michael: Okay, here is a little preview for the next episode of Famous and Gravy. He collected Tony's Golden Globes, Emmy's Kennedy Center Honors and an Honorary Academy Award. He once appeared in 18 plays in 30 months. He often made a half dozen films a year in addition to his television work, and he did so for half a century.

Friend: I was thinking Kirk Douglas, but I think he died a long time ago, [01:04:00]

Michael: not Kurt Douglas. Great guest. Famous and Gravy listeners, we love hearing from you. If you wanna reach out with a comment, a question, or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels.

Famous and Gravy is created by Amit Kippur and me, Michael Osborne. Thank you so much to the magnificent John Watts for guest hosting. This episode was produced by Ali Ola, with assistance from Jacob Weiss. Original music by Kevin Strang. Thanks. See you next time.