138 Iceman Transcendeth (Val Kilmer)

Transcript of this episode

Isaac: [00:00:00] This is Famous and Gravy, biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. Now, here's the [00:00:10] quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2025, age 65. His younger brother Wesley drowned in a swimming pool in [00:00:20] 1977, an event that haunted him for years.

Friend: Wesley, that's such a British name. It's a British guy.

Michael: I

Friend: got nothing.

Michael: Throughout his career, [00:00:30] he often left an impression of unpredictability.

Friend: I'm thinking it's the Beach Boys guy. George Peppard. Not George Peppard.

Michael: [00:00:40] On the screen, he was both charismatic and curiosity peaking, a actor who didn't let his characters give emotional clues away easily.

Off the screen, he had his [00:00:50] share of disagreements, especially early in his career when he earned a reputation for surliness and self involvement.

Friend: Yeah, I was gonna say Gene Hackman, but he was older than 65.

Michael: Um- Not Gene [00:01:00] Hackman.

Friend: It feels like I can't remember a single actor that I've

Michael: ever been born with.

He applied to the Julliard School in New York at 17, and became one [00:01:10] of the youngest students ever admitted to the acting program there.

Friend: I'm only now thinking of Eric Andre, who's very much alive, but who I- Yes ... recently learned is like a Julliard-

Michael: [00:01:20] A Julliard alum ... music

Friend: prodigy. Oh, my God, I can s- I can see he...

Oh, my God. You're killing me. David, who was in the movie with [00:01:30] Tom Cruise?

Michael: He was cast as a rocker a handful of times early in his career when he seemed destined for blockbuster success.

Archival: Wait, 2025. Is

Friend: that

Archival: Philip [00:01:40] Seymour Hoffman?

Friend: Don't tell me. Don't tell me. I know his name. I can picture his face. He was the guy who played the Doors guy, right?

Michael: He played Iceman in Top Gun. [00:01:50]

Friend: Val Kilmer. Oh, Val Kilmer. Is this Val Kilmer? Val Kilmer. It's Val Kilmer. It's Val Kilmer.

Michael: Today's dead [00:02:00] celebrity is Val Kilmer.

Archival: I'm dumb. I was a dumb actor. But I did complain quite a bit when I was younger. I didn't appreciate [00:02:10] the business that afforded me the lifestyle that I very quickly enjoyed.

Mm. You know, very quickly. I, I starred in my first [00:02:20] movie. I was the lead in the first play I did professionally. And now that, uh, I don't have that privilege, um, you [00:02:30] know, I wish that I loved more. I, I want to be a better person

Michael: Welcome to [00:02:40] Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

Isaac: And I'm Isaac Kestenbaum.

Michael: And on this show, we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. [00:02:50] What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story show us about ourselves?

Today, Val Kilmer, died 2025, [00:03:00] age 65. All right, I am thrilled to have my friend Isaac Kestenbaum back on the show. Isaac is the director, uh, of the Salt Institute of [00:03:10] Documentary Studies in Portland, Maine. Uh, he was previously on the Stan Lee episode, and now he's here today to talk about, uh, Val Kilmer. I gotta ask, so [00:03:20] you're the, the, the director of the Salt Institute.

Yes. I was thinking about this this morning. Do you, um, do you get to hear about a lot of good stories by virtue of your role? Like, are you, [00:03:30] like, sort of immersed in storytelling?

Isaac: Yes, a lot. And, you know, especially from alum, who will, like, reach out and tell me what they are up to. Um, sometimes I feel a little bit like, uh, a [00:03:40] parent, like, after the-

kids leave, and I'm like, "I don't hear from you," you know? Like- Yeah ... tell me more. Like, so I have to, like, you know- Do you still love me? Yeah, like, uh, what's, what's going on? You know, you, you call anytime. I'd love to hear what you're up [00:03:50] to. Um, but yeah. Yeah. You know, I think alum are out there doing amazing work.

Yeah. And just being surrounded by ideas, like, kicking around, like, story ideas is my favorite thing. Like, I [00:04:00] love the... I love to sit in on all the pitches that the students do, like, when they're, um...

Michael: Yeah. Well, we've

Isaac: gone off story. You got a little bit of, uh, rays of God coming in from the, the side of your, uh- Well, that...

But,

Michael: [00:04:10] but that's because I... Divine intervention- This is famous in- ... in this

Isaac: episode ...

Michael: maybe. Yeah, this is famous in Berkeley, right? Yeah. I think you should save that, though, for the upward staircase. I'm in Santa Fe and, uh, the spirit of Val Kilmer is all around us. [00:04:20] He did ca- claim New Mexico as a home. Yeah. You know, I wanna, I wanna just make one more comment on the storytelling thing.

I've really been... You know, I think that there is this big question with AI and new [00:04:30] technology of, like, educational philosophy. Mm-hmm. And I've really been thinking, like, what do I want my kids to know? And one thing I've really come to is that I want them to be storytellers, [00:04:40] even if I don't know what storytelling medium they're gonna be using.

Mm-hmm. Podcasting didn't exist, you know, whatever, 20 years ago, 25 years ago. Movies are, [00:04:50] you know, a fairly recent invention. You know, video games are evolving all the time. Mm-hmm. And I feel like storytelling is one of those, like, fundamental skills that we kind of [00:05:00] emphasize in education, but it's something that I think, you know, is a life skill no matter who you are, no matter what you're doing- Mm-hmm

that, uh, will carry with you. And so it's really [00:05:10] cool. I admire your job. I'm a little envious. Um, but, uh, but cool. That answers it. All right, I got one more question for you. Sure, yeah. We gotta talk top five Val Kilmer movies. [00:05:20] Yes, yes. I don't usually do this, but I asked you to prepare ahead of time.

Isaac: Yes.

Michael: What are your top five movies? And not necessarily roles, because I think that is, actually, in his case, an especially [00:05:30] different question. Mm-hmm. But, uh, you know, maybe we go... I, I've got my five. Okay. And maybe we go out of order, like, uh, like, you know, lead up to number one.

Isaac: Oh, sure.

Michael: Um-

Isaac: [00:05:40] Okay, yeah ...

Michael: so what's your number five?

Isaac: I actually think that the documentary that was made about him, uh- Oh ... Val. Yeah ... uh, that he kind of made about himself. I'm putting that number five. I feel like that was [00:05:50] really eye-opening. I watched it with my wife, and I think we both teared up a little bit at certain points in it. I found it surprisingly Moving.

Um, so that's my, that's, that's my number [00:06:00] five

Michael: Part of it is he has, uh, all this, uh, footage that he shot on camcorders for his whole life. Yes. This is definitely gonna come up- Mm-hmm ... in the conversation. Mm-hmm. Yeah. My number five was The Saint. I [00:06:10] love The Saint. I think that's- Really? ... such a great m- yeah, I think I know not everybody loves it.

I'm so entertained by that movie. Um, and I've always had a thing for Elizabeth Shue, so

Isaac: that helps. [00:06:20]

Michael: Oh, well, yeah. For sure. All right, what do you got for number four?

Isaac: Uh, for number four I'm going Thunderheart, um, which was- Yes ... the '90s movie he made with Sam Shepard. It's set on, um, a kind of fictional, [00:06:30] uh- Mm-hmm

version of, uh- Reservation in South Dakota ... yeah. Um, and I just found it, um, really engrossing. You know, like, one of the joys of this episode is revisiting some of Val's, um, work, and I [00:06:40] hadn't seen this one, so I just kinda- Yeah ... sat down to watch it. And I was like, "I'll watch maybe, like, the first 30 minutes," you know?

And I was just totally drawn in, and-

Michael: Loved it. I, I didn't make [00:06:50] my list. Um, I love that we're coming at it from different places- I bet our top three are gonna- ... 'cause I think this sort of speaks

Isaac: to- Yeah. I bet

Michael: our top three- Maybe ... are. Maybe. I bet some, there'll be some overlap. I don't know. Yeah. My number one I think will surprise you.[00:07:00]

Yeah. And my number four was The Doors. Oh, yeah. I love I, I love it. I, I defend The Doors. I know it's problematic. I know it is- ... like, really taking liberties with the [00:07:10] truth, but I love that movie. It's got, next to Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, it's got some of my favorite psychedelic, you know, uh, experience, you know, footage.

[00:07:20] Like, them, them tripping in the desert is just the best to me. Um, all right. What's your number three?

Isaac: My number three is Heat.

Michael: Okay. That was my- Yeah ... number two.

Isaac: Yeah. I, I think it's just, like, a solid [00:07:30] movie, and he's so good in it and so memorable. And, um- Yeah, and I think that's maybe, like, maybe not his best performance of all the [00:07:40] ones on my top five, but I just like...

That's, yeah, that's very re-watchable to

me.

Michael: And Heat, I mean, Heat is, Heat is one of my favorite movies, full stop. So that's why I gave it number two. All right, what do you got for number [00:07:50] two, then?

Isaac: Number two is Top Gun.

Michael: Oh, is that right? Okay. Yeah. I didn't, didn't make my list. What? It didn't make my list.

I'm sorry. Are [00:08:00] you kidding me? I'm telling you, we're gonna have different... No, I mean- ... I, I, I've come to appreciate it, but it's so bubblegum-y. That movie drives me crazy. I listen to the soundtrack, I can't get it out of [00:08:10] my head. He is fabulous in it. Rolls, yes, I might consider it, but no, that is not my number two.

My number two, well, I already said was Heat. I didn't give you my number three. My [00:08:20] number three is Real Genius. Oh. I love the movie Real Genius. Mm-hmm. I, uh, watched it with my kids recently. I think it totally holds up. Chris Knight was always, like, just one of, [00:08:30] somebody I looked up to growing up.

Isaac: Yeah.

Michael: Uh, all right, so what's your- I can see that

I don't think we're gonna have the same. What's your number one?

Isaac: My number one is Tombstone.

Michael: I thought it might be. Yeah. Didn't make my list. I love the [00:08:40] movie, but, and I think maybe my favorite role. My number one is True Romance.

Isaac: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm,

Michael: mm-hmm. I, I, I know it's, uh, not a Val Kilmer movie. We don't even see his [00:08:50] face playing Elvis, but True Romance will always be, I think, my number one movie of all time.

You know, it just brings together the greatest cast, and I [00:09:00] fricking love, uh, I love the script. I mean, I thought that was pink, peak Tarantino. Yeah. And I could watch it over and over again. The first time I watched it when I [00:09:10] was, I think 16 years old. I remember putting it, the cassette in the, uh, um, in, in the player, watching it, and then h- hitting stop, rewind, and I watched it again, and [00:09:20] I'd never done that with any other movie.

Like, I just- Classic ... I didn't get enough. I gotta go more. I gotta- Yeah ... do it all over again. All right. I mean, I- Yeah,

Isaac: my, that'd be my number six. Okay. True Romance, probably [00:09:30] six or seven. Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay, so okay, I'm glad we went through that exercise though, because I feel like, uh, I feel like one of the things about the Val Kilmer [00:09:40] IMDb is that you're like, "Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah" Yeah ... over and over again, you know? Yeah. Um, all right. I think we've, uh, gotten that out of our system.

Isaac: Did we only have one, only one in common was Heat? [00:09:50] Is that right?

Michael: I think that's right. Wow. I think that's right. Wow. That speaks to the man's, you know- Yes ... diversity of catalog. Yep. He had an incredible run.

All right, let's get to it. Category one, grading the first line [00:10:00] of their obituary.

Isaac: Right. "

Michael: Val Kilmer, a homegrown Hollywood actor who tasted leading-man stardom as Jim Morrison in Batman, but whose protean [00:10:10] gifts and elusive personality also made him a high-profile supporting player, died on Tuesday in Los Angeles.

He was 65." [00:10:20] Isaac, initial reactions Mm.

Isaac: Um, I think a, I think a lot of this is really spot on and really, uh, nails what is so unique about [00:10:30] him in a very short sentence. So, um, I really like that they mention he tasted leading man star- stardom, but then- Mm-hmm ... um, really was known as a supporting player, like we were just [00:10:40] talking about.

And then I think, um, elusive personality- Perfect ... is spot on. Perfect. Yes. It's

Michael: so... Yeah, and w- I have a lot to say about that, yes.

Isaac: Yeah, me too. I have some [00:10:50] quibbles. I don't know if you want me to, uh, share those now- No, let's stick

Michael: on what's good ... or if you want... Okay I mean, 'cause I had the same reaction. I have a very high score here, I think.

I love homegrown Hollywood actor. Mm-hmm. [00:11:00] Even though he doesn't really... He has a conflicted relationship with LA. I mean, he spends a lot of his adult life in New Mexico, which is where I happen to be recording this. Mm. Um, [00:11:10] and you know, didn't, didn't seem to love... I, there was a Larry King interview where he asked, you know, uh, "Have you always loved, uh, Los Angeles?"

Or something like that, and he's like, "I'm not sure I ever have." [00:11:20] Yeah. Yeah. But he is so Southern California, just such a, like, I don't know, golden boy. Mm-hmm. You know, good-looking, um, Southern California dude. [00:11:30] Um, I think that Jim Morrison and Batman is a pretty nice contrast in terms of range of characters he played- Mm

that are [00:11:40] iconic, but that are very, like a rocker and a superstar. Mm-hmm. You know, that sort of says something. I like protean gifts a lot. Yeah. Um, and I think elusive personality is so [00:11:50] spot on. Mm-hmm. The... If I were to lead into, I don't know if it's a quibble exactly, but they have this, "Whose protean..." They say, "But whose protean gifts and elusive personality [00:12:00] also..."

I thought that they were gonna go a different direction with this last clause. They said they also made him a high-profile supporting player. Mm-hmm. I, I thought that they were gonna [00:12:10] say also made him, you know, a prickly personality- Mm-hmm ... or not personality, but also made him, you know, hard to work with, and he wound up not doing [00:12:20] as well his last, you know, 20 years in terms of blockbuster and success.

Right. Right? I th- I thought that they were gonna hint at the story of how he sort of fell [00:12:30] off the map- Mm-hmm ... you know, somewhere in the early 2000s. And instead they say, "High-profile supporting player," which almost felt like a l- I don't know if it's a cop-out exactly. It's just not [00:12:40] where I would have taken the story.

Mm-hmm. You know? Um, but the vocabulary is great, and I think is actually doing a lot of subtle work. [00:12:50] So overall, I was really pleased. What, what were your quibbles?

Isaac: I didn't love homegrown Hollywood as much, but- Okay ... now that I hear you say that, like, if you look at him, he was clearly, you [00:13:00] know, grown in that.

Like, that's where he came from. Yeah. Like, that face, and, like, his attitude.

Michael: That

Isaac: Southern California soil. Um, but I wasn't sure. It didn't feel as defining, um, you know- Hm ... to be the first thing that you mentioned [00:13:10] in, uh, the obit. And then-

Michael: That's fair ...

Isaac: like, Jim Morrison and Batman are household names, so I think that's probably why they put those in.

But I actually feel like when you say Val Kilmer to most [00:13:20] people, they probably think of... Well, maybe not, actually. But I had, I would say they might think of hi- like, Iceman or Doc Holiday or some of his- Yeah ... other roles. Yeah. So I wish that they could have [00:13:30] maybe, maybe fit those in, but talking it through with you, I may have to put my score up, up one from where I had it initially.

Michael: I asked my wife last night at dinner, who did not grow up watching [00:13:40] movies the same way I did. Mm-hmm. I'm like, "Uh, Val Kilmer." She's like, "Yeah, I know who he is." You know, I'm like, "What's your, what's the first movie you think of?" And she was silent for, like, 45 seconds, then looks at me and goes, "Was he in Point Break?"[00:13:50]

And I was like, "No." But he could've been, now that you mention it. Yeah, he could've been. Yeah. And it turns out he had an option for it. He actually, that's, he's got a lot of movies he was up [00:14:00] for- Mm-hmm ... and either decided not to go for or didn't get. Yeah. Um, elusive personality kinda hi- hints at his, you know, being a, [00:14:10] somebody who gets labeled as a difficult actor.

Mm-hmm. Um, and I do think that is a very important part of the Val Kilmer story- Yeah ... that I'm sure we'll get [00:14:20] into. But I, I mean, I think this is actually an un- surprisingly hard, unusually hard obit to write. [00:14:30] He is a much more complicated figure than you would think at first glance. Mm. And I think the obit leaves open the door, the first line of the [00:14:40] obit leaves open the door for some of that complicated interpretation in a way that, I, the, the...

You know, you always have to grade these things on a scale. Is it an easy first line to write or [00:14:50] not? I think this was a hard one to write. I think they got a lot of things right. Maybe they missed the mark in a couple of places, but given the challenge of it, overall, I, I'm [00:15:00] inclined to give it a high score.

So I think I've got my number. Yeah. Um, do you wanna go first, or you want me to go first?

Isaac: Uh, I'll go first. I'm gonna give it... I'm gonna stick with my original one. I'm gonna give it an eight.

Michael: Okay. I was gonna [00:15:10] give it a nine. So, uh, I think nine is maybe a little high. Um, but I, eight actually is probably a little bit more right.

I guess [00:15:20] I, I do l- I... The fact that the phrase elusive personality is actually doing so much work for me- Yeah, me too ... that the [00:15:30] fact that they got that in there is just, like, okay. I'm, I'm gonna forgive a lot of other things where I might quibble. Yeah. The real score probably should be an eight, but I'm gonna give it a nine.

Isaac: Yeah.

Michael: All right. [00:15:40] Uh, let's move on. Category two, five things I love about you. Here, Isaac and I will develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who Val Kilmer was and how he lived. [00:15:50] Uh, you wanna kick us off?

Isaac: All right, I'll start with my hot take. Um, so my hot take is I love that he was difficult, um, with directors.

Um- Yeah ... and [00:16:00] I think that certainly from what I've read, like a lot of his behavior on set is not what was considered acceptable at the time, nor would we [00:16:10] consider it acceptable now. Um- Yeah ... but I do think that he was a true artist, and that a lot of his sort of difficultness came from a place, [00:16:20] maybe misguided or, or not well-communicated, where he was really trying to give the best performance that he could.

And I feel like this is crystallized so well in, um, the story where, uh, [00:16:30] he's 13 years old and is hired to do a burger commercial. Yeah.

Archival: Didn't you once audition for a, a TV commercial that you, for a hamburger that you just decided wasn't for you? [00:16:40] Yes. Yeah, and the, the agent called me in after, and, you know, "Don't you wanna do this?"

I said, "Yeah, I wanna act, but those hamburgers are [00:16:50] terrible." He was... So I was a, I was a junior method actor. I didn't even know what it meant Well, but I, since I didn't believe they taste good, I [00:17:00] couldn't sell them.

Isaac: And he walked off the, he walked off the set- Stormed off the set ... and like never got paid.

This was his first set, Storm Off, at age 13. So I think like- Yeah ... he [00:17:10] comes by it naturally. You know, like at that age- Yeah ... I mean, I guess 13, you know, whatever. But like it's not as if he is playing with house money and can afford to piss people off. Like, he [00:17:20] needs to Potentially build his career here, but he's so principled that he will not do that, uh, even on a, um, a burger commercial.

And yeah

Michael: I [00:17:30] totally agree, and I absolutely love that about him as well. Yeah. Um,

Isaac: dynamite. I think we, we can be afraid of conflict sometimes. Yeah. Um, and maybe he went too far in that one direction, but, [00:17:40] you know, he said, like, he, he claimed that it wasn't about his ego. He was just trying to make the characters better, and that's when he would, you know, clash with directors.

And yeah, like Iceman, apparently [00:17:50] he, like, had a vision of, like, Iceman's father and had, like, a whole- Yeah ... like fictional interaction with his father. And, like, that's just, I mean, that's real dedication to that part. Um-

Michael: It is, [00:18:00] and I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he does him- himself any favors in terms of explaining his process.

No. But I do think he's got ... I do think he's actually got a [00:18:10] process. Yeah. And he is an artist in a way I didn't understand him to be an artist, you know? And not, a- a- and with all the difficulty that that can come with. Mm. Um, but, but with a [00:18:20] commitment to it that really is a through line throughout his life.

Isaac: Yeah.

Michael: All right. Uh, I'll give you my number two. I'm gonna go with, um, here's, here's another place where I had to do some learning. So he [00:18:30] is a devout Christian Scientist. Mm. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know much about Christian Science before this episode. I did some deep diving. You know, the thing that comes up a [00:18:40] lot is there's a, a, a, a reputation of being, how do you put it, um, a, a, a sort of averse to traditional [00:18:50] medical treatment, I guess.

Yeah. That they go to, you know, Christian Scientists often go to prayer before they go to the doctor. And that may have even been part of his story, that he initially, when he got throat [00:19:00] cancer, rejected medical treatment. Um, but then his kids, who are not Christian Scientists, said, "Dad, you've gotta do radiation and chemotherapy."

What I, where I went with [00:19:10] this, Isaac, is I'm like, okay, I, I want one of the principles of Famous Engraved to be let's look for similarities and not differences. Mm-hmm. You know, what can I take and leave the rest [00:19:20] behind? And I do love his spiritual journey. Mm-hmm. I think over and over in his book, he points to coincidences, and I think coincidences are the [00:19:30] greatest sign of, um, spiritual seeking.

One of the great stories is he's in Africa and he's in a bat cave, and then he comes out of the bat cave. He's like, "I should call my [00:19:40] agent." And he's like, "I've been trying to get ahold of you for weeks. You got Batman," right? Um-

Isaac: I was gonna say that he has that story in his book about, um, the day his dad dies.

You know, he's had this, he's, [00:19:50] uh, uh, claimed that he, like, rode his horse back faster than was actually possible. You know, like it was not, and was not the first time that he had, like, um- m- [00:20:00] bent time. Uh- Yeah ... he's like, "Time isn't real anyway, so I was able to get, like, back", and I had this... Like, he saw, like, a eagle attacking a snake or something, and that- Yes, yes

that he knew that- This is a sort of sign from- ... when his dad had [00:20:10] passed. Yeah, as a sign. And the fact that you are in New Mexico right now recording this is not a coincidence. Dude,

Michael: this is kind of my point, man. This was meant to be. I mean, yeah. There's stuff that comes up in the Jim Morrison thing where he, [00:20:20] like, repeats mistakes that a Jim Morrison producer was, like, got emotional about.

Here's where I'm at with coincidence. I think that the more you look for it, the more you see it. I've actually [00:20:30] started a note on my phone where I'm trying to cap- ca- you know, catch coincidences as they come up. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And, and, you know, is that a sign from the universe? It's a story we tell ourselves, and that is a big [00:20:40] deal with Val Kilmer because this man is telling himself-

a story about, about who he is that- Yeah ... sometimes conforms with reality and sometimes, mm, kind of b- kind of [00:20:50] bending it around a little bit. Yeah. Um, but I, I, I came away, you know, uh, persuaded that he, you know, had a spiritual [00:21:00] commitment that I... And you actually really even see it at the end of his life when it seems like he's confronting death, and even says, "I don't believe in death."[00:21:10]

Archival: Well, if we just look at it physically for, for a moment, it, we are, we are, uh, literally, physically one thing. If you just pull [00:21:20] back physically and look at the planet Earth, we're part of one- Right ... organism. This is how I see the physical world, and I accept that there are things in the physical world [00:21:30] that, that are not as we perceive them We all know since Einstein on that things are, uh, uh, you know, to, to quote, uh, Shakespeare, [00:21:40] "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

Michael: Do you know that Michael Pollan, have you been reading his book on consciousness?

Isaac: No, it's on my list.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. So Allison and I started it, [00:21:50] and this whole topic of consciousness has been coming up a lot, feels like lately. I just seem to be having a lot of conversations about it. And there is a sort of idea out there that consciousness [00:22:00] is something ubiquitous in the universe, and our human minds are just antenna and receptors.

Um, but that, you know, when we think about death, it's death of [00:22:10] ego and self, but it's not, it's not death of spirit or something like that. And when he talks about, Val Kilmer talks about not believing in death, I think that's kinda where he's coming from. And I don't know if [00:22:20] I'm there with that, but I was like, "Wow, that is surrender.

That is release. That is serenity. That is peace with yourself." And I, I think [00:22:30] he actually has that on display in the documentary you were talking about, in Vow. Mm-hmm, yeah. Um, so, you know, I know I'm making the spiritual, uh, [00:22:40] sort of upward staircase case early on, but I, I, I learned a lot in looking for similarities and not differences.

And so my thing number two was take what you want and [00:22:50] leave the rest behind. And that's, that's where I went with it.

Isaac: I love that.

Michael: What do you got for number three?

Isaac: I'm gonna go with, um, his body. Um Ah,

Michael: [00:23:00] okay.

Isaac: I,

Michael: okay. And I mean that- And we should say we're both, you know, heterosexual men, but-

Isaac: Yes. Although,

Michael: uh- Val Kilmer's a sensuous man.

I'm sorry. I, and- A sensual man ...

Isaac: you know, they asked him to, [00:23:10] uh, someone in an interview, I don't know if you came across this, asked him, like, "How would you rank the homoeroticism in Top Gun on a scale of 1 to 10?" Yeah. And his answer was 11. Um, [00:23:20] but- Very fair ... no, I, I don't, I guess I don't just mean it in, like, the sort of 1992 Val Kilmer pin-up, you know, kind of way.

Yeah. Yeah, poster boy. I think that he was a really physical actor.

Michael: Yes.

Isaac: Um, [00:23:30] and from his appearance, you know, like, he said that, like, uh, he, he- they gave him the initial idea for Iceman's haircut, but he wanted to make it, quote, "Weirder." Yeah. Um, [00:23:40] and, uh, you know, he, like, improvised a lot of the, the volleyball stuff, like spinning the ball on his finger, which I think is, like, one of the iconic moments from that.

Oh, yeah. So, like, just a very, like, a very, like, [00:23:50] physically present actor in a lot of his roles. Like, even in Heat, like, I don't have a memorable line of his in Heat, but I can, like, picture that character.

Archival: They used some of the film of Val Kilmer [00:24:00] firing forward, turning, firing back, and then doing a reload.

They used that at, at Fort Bragg. 95% of you will not be able to fire as r- as well as this [00:24:10] actor.

Isaac: I actually think, like, as he aged, um, there's a certain, uh body positivity that I, that I want to see [00:24:20] there. Um I, yes, I

Michael: totally agree. I totally agree. He's very comfortable. He's a little heavier, but he's, like, really, he's really, like, you know, carrying himself comfortably and well.

Body [00:24:30] positivity is a great word for it. Yeah.

Isaac: I loved, I lo- you may, may mind his, his body, parentheses, positivity, or Yeah, right ... um, but yeah, like he, you know, I even remember, like, some kind of mean memes [00:24:40] going around of him, like, looking overweight and being like, "Hey, guys, remember when I was Batman?" You know, which I think is kind of cruel.

But, um-

Archival: That's the internet for you ...

Isaac: but I f- I feel like, um, you know, there's a line in [00:24:50] his, um, book where he's like, you know, uh, "My body has taken on a different form, but I choose to accept it." Um- Hmm ... and I also think, like, um, [00:25:00] in his later life he really let people in to, um, kind of see him in a very vulnerable state, like after he had throat cancer, and he had the tracheotomy tube, and-

Michael: And then [00:25:10] couldn't really talk.

Isaac: I mean- Couldn't really talk, you know, and I think a lot of people maybe would retreat.

Archival: How are you? I'm well. How are you? I'm good, buddy. I don't, I don't sound [00:25:20] At my best You sound better than last time. Yeah. For sure. I am better than last time.

It just sounds, uh, [00:25:30] like, uh, I have a bag of marbles in my mouth.

Isaac: Yeah. You know, a couple scenes from the doc where, like, he gets, he, like, throws up at a [00:25:40] convention 'cause he's, like, just exhausted, and- Yeah ... they show that, and they also, like, there's a scene of him, like, on the, uh, uh, o- on a, um, a [00:25:50] balcony, like, shirtless.

And, you know, he looks like... I mean, we're both dads, you know? Yeah. He's got a good body. Yeah. He looks like a guy. He looks like a totally normal human person who is his age. You know, but it's like you [00:26:00] don't always see those bodies- Yeah ... that experienced on, on film, so.

Michael: I think that is really... I love that, especially because I love the journey of it.

Mm-hmm. I love the, it's sort of the [00:26:10] journey of his body in a way because there is obviously a, you know, sex symbol, as you said- Totally, yeah ... sort of pin-up, um, quality to him and, uh, and, you know, [00:26:20] extremely attractive man who I think has a lot of, uh, sensuality. But I also think that it even relates to the loss of his voice, and hearing him talk about making [00:26:30] peace with this thing that was, you know, his core instrument as an actor.

Um, yeah, I, I, uh, I'm not a huge Top Gun fan, but [00:26:40] the s- the cameo he has in the sequel, um, is extremely moving. And, you know, he's not able to talk in that scene, which I think, you know, [00:26:50] d- does sort of get to this idea of physicality and body positivity. I love that. That's a great one, Isaac. Okay. Um, I'll give you my number three.

I'm just gonna say Mark [00:27:00] Twain obsession. Yes, yes. And this is more of a to-do for me than it is a thing 'cause I'm not, I'm not, like, a Twain scholar. He's on the list of people I know I'm gonna develop an [00:27:10] obsession with, right? Mm-hmm. I, I've read... I, I love Huckleberry Finn. I love Tom Sawyer. You know, Mark Twain quotes get thrown around a lot.

Yeah, yeah. And you just bump into them. Mm-hmm. [00:27:20] And I, so I feel like I've g- I don't know, got fragments of his biography and personality. A- and I know at some [00:27:30] point, probably pretty soon, I'm gonna do, like, do a deep dive on Mark Twain- ... and I kinda can't wait for it. Yeah. What's interesting with Val Kilmer is that s- this [00:27:40] one-man show, which was, uh, kind of the last real performance-oriented thing he did, it was mostly self-funded.

It was not lucrative. It sounds [00:27:50] really weird in that it was like Mark Twain doing stand-up comedy kind of.

Archival: All you need is ignorance and confidence, and success is sure. [00:28:00] Yes. Yeah, let's get started, shall we? We're gonna have a little talk tonight about truth and illusion. Some people call that [00:28:10] heaven and hell.

I believe if you're lucky enough to get into heaven, you will spend all your time improving yourself. You will [00:28:20] study and study and study, and progress and progress and progress And if that ain't hell, I don't know what is.

Michael: Twain [00:28:30] apparently had a lot of critical things to say about Mary what's her name, the founder of Christian Science?

Uh,

Isaac: Eddy, um-

Michael: Yeah, Mary Eddy, um, I think is her name. And so- I think there's a middle name in there

Isaac: [00:28:40] that

Michael: they usually say There is a middle name usually. Yeah. But you know who I'm talking about. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, you know, Val Kilmer, devout Christian Scientist, and, you know, fanboy of Mark Twain, has [00:28:50] this, has this performance where he's sort of, like, trying to reconcile his love for these two figures.

Mm-hmm. Um, I, I, like, it, it got me interested in Twain, [00:29:00] and I also love that Val Kilmer discovered live comedy as this release- Yeah ... when his career has sort [00:29:10] of fallen apart. And it is sort of his final public performance- Mm ... is, I mean, you know, he does a couple other things, Iceman, you know, and Top Gun 2 or whatever, but it is kind of the [00:29:20] last creative act of his, at, at, at, at least in terms of, you know, an actor that we would recognize.

So that's my thing number four.

Isaac: I just love that he's, like, putting himself out there [00:29:30] at that stage in his career, like, doing, taking a risk, taking a big swing- Yeah ... for something that, like... You know, I don't know if I'm gonna get into a Twain phase, but, like, I'm entering [00:29:40] my, like, you know, dad phase where I love reading, like, big nonfiction books.

And the- Yeah ... something's gonna come for me. It's not, maybe not Twain, but I'll be like, "Guys, did you know about, like..."

Michael: Yeah, I [00:29:50] mean, I, I

Isaac: think- Robert Caro? Like- I- Yeah. Right, right.

Michael: All right. So what do you got for number five?

Isaac: My thing number five is that, um, he was a big thinker. Um- Okay ... so, like, [00:30:00] outside of his acting career, he had, like, all these other endeavors that he was really...

Like, you talked about Twain. Mm-hmm. But, you know, he bought this, like, 6,000 acre ranch, and his initial vision was he wanted to turn it into, like, a [00:30:10] commune where, like, creative people could gather. Yeah. And, you know- It's like an

Archival: artist retreat.

Isaac: Yeah. Um, and it sounded even more, like, grand than that. Like, the best people coming together and just, like, thinking about [00:30:20] ideas.

Um- Yeah, yeah ... you know, which is a lot like Salt, actually, minus 6,000 acres. Um- And, but then, uh, uh, he has to, um, sell his ranch, but then he makes this, [00:30:30] uh, art space in LA called Hellmelle. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is, like, a weird name. I guess it's sort of like a, a Tribeca. Like, it's two neighborhoods mashed together.

Um, but it's this, like, [00:30:40] amazing hybrid, like, creative space, um, where it's like, you know, his art, which, uh... Like, he's also a poet and a, um-

Michael: Yeah ...

Isaac: and a, [00:30:50] a, a visual artist. Not a great one,

Michael: but a poet. But-

Isaac: And yeah, I love, like, Chuck... There's, Chuck Klosterman has that bit where, like, he does that profile of him, and he gets a poem.

He's like, "I showed it to people and no one could tell if it was [00:31:00] good or not." Like- Right. Um-

Michael: It's very Jim Morrison-like

Isaac: that way ... so, yeah. Yeah. I guess I just like that he has these, like, big, takes these, has these big i- concepts that maybe he's not always able to realize fully. Like, he-

Michael: Yeah ...

Isaac: [00:31:10] well, he wanted to make a documentary about the nuclear crisis- Right

which he never really finished. In one profile I read of him, they said that he, like, when he was filming Wonderland, he, um, filled his, uh- [00:31:20] Made collages of photographs of the set, like in the place where he was staying, and then spilled blood on it, uh- Yeah ... which is like some art project And nobody knew what to make of this.

And then, yeah, no one knows why. [00:31:30] Right, right. Um, so yeah, I feel like he's got these kind of big ideas that he's wrestling with in a way that, like, he doesn't have to do these things. Like, you know, he's like... So yeah. Um-

Michael: You know, uh, this is a little bit of a, [00:31:40] a weird turn. The smartest man I ever interviewed was a Stanford professor named Richard White, who was an environmental historian, and he was a MacArthur genius, and just [00:31:50] incisive and brilliant.

And, uh, one time we were talking about, um, uh, you know, sort of like, "Where would you like to live?" And he's like, "You know, somewhere, a, a creative center." Mm-hmm. And [00:32:00] it was the first time that somebody had clicked for me that creativity and genius and, and, like, intellectual genius are, are all [00:32:10] part of a similar culture, and I think Val Kilmer is an advocate for that.

Mm-hmm. When you say big thinker, I also, where my mind goes, is creates creative spaces. And I think that- Yeah, maybe

Isaac: [00:32:20] creativity is what I'm thinking about,

Michael: yeah. Yeah, but I, but I think it's also enabling creativity beyond his own. Mm-hmm. It's not just about his own craft. I mean, that space in, on the Pecos River, which is 30 miles from here, I've [00:32:30] been up and down the Pecos River.

It is gorgeous over there. Mm. And I can totally see why he would think this is a place where that'll foster good ideas. I, he was [00:32:40] also working behind the scenes with the state of New Mexico to, um, try and create tax incentives to bring, you know, more Hollywood opportunities here. Oh, wow. It is part- I mean, it's [00:32:50] hard to attribute, but, like, I'm not sure we would have Breaking Bad if Val Kilmer hadn't been working behind the scenes.

That's amazing. You know? I mean, I, you can draw those lines. Yeah, yeah. But I think even more, it [00:33:00] really reminds me in some ways in Dav- of David Lynch too, that his creativity is not just about the one form. Mm-hmm. Um, so I think, and I, I would say the one other piece of that [00:33:10] that I really love, Isaac, is he never went to college really.

He went to Julliard, right?

Isaac: And he wrote, like, a, a play at Julliard that went on to go to the public theater. Yeah. Um, [00:33:20] yeah, so totally. Yeah.

Michael: Dude, all right. I think we've got a great five things here. Let's recap. Yeah. So number one, you said, uh, you love that he's a difficult actor. Yes. I [00:33:30] absolutely love that.

Yeah. Uh, number two, I said take what you want and leave the rest behind. I love his spiritual journey. Uh, number three, you said body positivity? Body, body positivity. Yeah. [00:33:40] Body positivity. Number four, uh, Mark Twain, Twain obsession. And number five, um- Big- ... big thinker and creative spaces.

Isaac: Yep.

Michael: Yeah. Totally.

And fostering them. Awesome [00:33:50] list. Okay. Let's take a break Category three, one love. In this category, we'll each choose one word or phrase that characterizes [00:34:00] Val Kilmer's loving relationships. Before, uh, we get to it, we will review the family life data. So one marriage to, I actually don't know if you say Joan or Joanne [00:34:10] Whalley-Walley.

Um, she was the, his co-star in Willow. Um, that's, uh... Although he had a vision of meeting her before. Of course he did. He was... Which is another one of those coincidences, [00:34:20] right? Yeah, yeah. Um, they were 28, or he was 28 when they got married, 36 when they divorced. Two kids, Mercedes and Jack, and it was, uh, I, it sounds like they got to a [00:34:30] more amicable, amicable place.

Um, Val Kilmer in his, uh, a memoir talks about moving from California to New Mexico, where that [00:34:40] ended up having a lot of financial consequences because of how back income is calculated. So he's not any good with money, uh, that's for sure. But that's a different category. Anyway, so they [00:34:50] divorce. Um, he, you know, other relevant info, he lost his brother Wesley at a young age, and Wesley sounds like a real...

I mean, Wesley was a, a teenager, I think, [00:35:00] um, seventh grade or something. Uh, but it sounds like a sort of, uh, you know, early trauma e- event that, that stays with him for the rest of his life. And then I think you have to call out some of [00:35:10] the high-profile girlfriends. I had no idea Val Kilmer was dating Cher, you know, who was 10 years older than him when he is, you know, just riding the rocket ship of fame, [00:35:20] um, and stayed close with Cher.

Also dated Cindy Crawford, had a love affair with her, Daryl Hannah, and Angelina Jolie, among others. Um, so, uh, [00:35:30] you know, a- anyway, he's so funny about how he describes those relationships.

Archival: Uh, it says here you dated Cher. Now that didn't happen, did it? That didn't. Did it really? [00:35:40] Hmm? Hmm?[00:35:50]

Michael: I thought about drawing attention to his, um- Mm ... journey as a father because- Mm-hmm ... um, you know, his son voice is, is like, has a voice similar to his and- [00:36:00] Mm-hmm ... and does the voi- voiceover for the documentary, and it's kinda great. It looks like they both have interest in, uh, acting. And, and so I, I like, I liked his kids.

Yeah. And it did sound like [00:36:10] he was a really dedicated father.

Archival: Of the three of you, who is most likely to be late? I'm gonna say Mercedes again. I'm gonna say Mercedes. Well, hey. Of the three of you, who is the biggest social butterfly? Oh, [00:36:20] this, I mean... Yeah, her. I- Mercedes. Okay. Uh, maybe right now it's me Describe his ass in three words or less.

Three words or less? Okay. Um. Spontaneous, uh, crazy, and loving. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna say,[00:36:30]

uh, [00:36:40] genius. Genius? This is you answering? I'm like, "Ha ha."

Michael: But I ended up saying, uh, girl, we couldn't get much higher. Um, and that is a [00:36:50] riff on The Doors where there's this famous scene in The Doors where they're singing, um, Light My Fire, and they're going on TV and the censors are like, "Could you say, 'Girl, we couldn't get much [00:37:00] better?'"

And Jim Morrison, and Val Kilmer playing him, does this sort of defiant...

Girl, we couldn't get much higher. Yeah. The reason I went with that phrase is [00:37:10] that I do think he comes into, um, romantic relationships as, as a romantic. Uh, and with very [00:37:20] high expectations, and it just never quite clicks for him. I feel like he hits a ceiling, he hits a cap with what he... where he's able to take a [00:37:30] relationship, and where he's able to be a boyfriend.

I mean, all of his relationships with, with some of these high-profile women are like, like, he's, he's just [00:37:40] waxing so poetic about them, and then, you know, in the, in the memoir it's sort of like, "Yeah, but we ended up going our separate ways." Like, he doesn't give a very satisfying answer for why the relationships don't work, and [00:37:50] my hunch is that, okay, he's probably a complicated boyfriend.

You know? Yeah. Yeah,

Isaac: he's like, "I was a fool," or

Michael: like-

Isaac: Right. ... "I just, I let it..." You know, it's like, what does that mean

Michael: there, Val? You, [00:38:00] you... Val, can you elaborate a little bit more on- He doesn't sound as good in that story, does he? ... how exactly did you screw it up with Daryl Hannah- Yeah. Yeah, yeah ... or with Angelina Jolie or, or Cindy Crawford, for Christ sakes?

I mean, 'cause he does sound like he, you know, [00:38:10] falls deeply in love with these women. Uh, and he probably did, but, like, why they don't work, he, he, he hits a ceiling. Girl, we couldn't get much higher. So that was my, that was my [00:38:20] phrase. What do you got?

Isaac: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I love the, to see the relationship between him and his adult children in the doc.

Obviously, you know, we're seeing what he wants us to see, and he had- Of course ... pretty [00:38:30] editorial control over that. But, like, just seeing him, him and his son, like, goof around as, like, Batman and Robin I thought was really funny. Like, and they, like, dress up as Batman and Robin, like, randomly and, like, run around New Mexico.[00:38:40]

My phrase, um, is tragic backstory. Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, and you know, you mentioned it when you were doing the data, and I think that, um, when his brother died, he was just about to start [00:38:50] Julliard, Val was, and his, his younger brother dies. Um, has an epileptic fit and drowns- Yeah, and like, and in the swimming pool, right?

in a swimming pool or a hot tub. Yeah. And [00:39:00] I just feel like, um, that happened right as his, he's about to start his career, and it seemed like, you know, he and Wesley had, like, a creative relationship together. [00:39:10] Wesley was, like, making movies w- with him and like- Mm-hmm ... really

Michael: seemed to be a big- Home movies

Isaac: type of thing.

Yeah ... a big figure, if not an influence on him. And I just kinda feel like- [00:39:20] I kind of think Val never really got over that. And, uh, you talk about, like, people trying to fill holes on this show sometimes, and I feel like there's [00:39:30] something tragic that is never fully, never fully healed. And, you know, uh, in the memoir, he says that he's in a cabin with [00:39:40] Daryl Hannah, and she says something like, "If we have kids, like, let's name, let's...

And we have a boy, let's name him Wesley." And, and Val says that, like, that opened... And he says it [00:39:50] healed in the memoir, which I don't really believe. But he says, you know, "Touched, opened, and healed my deepest wound, my deepest wish, and my deepest loss." So I just feel like somewhere at the core of him, there is [00:40:00] something tragic, and that's my

Michael: I think that's really astute.

I was thinking a lot about, like, should we consider Val Kilmer a child [00:40:10] actor? Not quite. Not quite, right? But he is one of the youngest, um, people ever to be accepted to Juilliard, right? And he does get a [00:40:20] leading man role right out of the gate, and there's not a whole lot of space in his early life for sort of...

Not that you can ever in Hollywood [00:40:30] or in the entertainment industry have n- sort of normal maturation you know? But I do feel like there was a way in which he was, you know, plucked [00:40:40] out of a talent pool and all over movie posters i, in a way that, you know, child actors struggle so much is that there's [00:40:50] arrested development.

They don't get to grow. They don't have... You know, there's too much public scrutiny and too much sort of outsized expectations for themselves at a young age. Um, [00:41:00] a- you know, does that relate to the core trauma of Wesley? I mean, I sort of think, you know, part of it was did he have space to grieve and process, you know?

And I do think you're [00:41:10] absolutely right that there is this unfillable God-sized hole, you know, at the center of him that, that at times does feel like [00:41:20] a relationship begins to meet the mark, a, a, a significant other, but ultimately he finds that lacking. And, you know, that's a little bit of, I guess, uh [00:41:30] you know, armchair psychology- Yeah, totally.

Yeah ... but, but, but, but there's some validity to it. I mean, that kind of tracks, right? Um, I mean, the fact that he, uh, you [00:41:40] know, actually has a complete, interesting life is, to me, sort of amazing. I was thinking about this in terms of stereotypes. There is a way in which Val [00:41:50] Kilmer's story, if not examined that closely, follows a Hollywood stereotypical path.

You know, gorgeous man gets thrown into the limelight, you know, [00:42:00] big, big lights, bright stars. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, gets to a place in his career where he's not in demand and has a tragic fall from grace. Yeah. And I think that [00:42:10] really misses the artistic through line, and it really misses, you know, some of his, uh, deeper needs- Yes

that I think are, are, that are coming up [00:42:20] here.

Isaac: Totally.

Michael: Let's move on. Category four, net worth. In this category, we will guess the net worth. Uh, the results are sourced from the website [00:42:30] celebritynetworth.com. Uh, Isaac and I will write down our numbers ahead of time, uh, before we reveal, and finally, we, we will place Val Kilmer on the Famous and Gravy net worth leaderboard.

Okay, I think we need to talk about this for a [00:42:40] second just before we get into it. Yeah. Only because, like, there is a moment where he is an incredibly bankable star. Bat- anybody who gets cast as Batman is in rare air category. Mm-hmm. [00:42:50] And he is on a hot streak from, you know, really right out of the gate up until around Heat.

You know, I think that there's some cult classics after that. I think, [00:43:00] uh, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, and, you know, there's a couple other- Mm-hmm ... you know, big-ish roles, but he does get labeled as difficult. He does have an expensive divorce. He [00:43:10] does, is forced to sell his ranch right around the time of the, um, uh, subprime mortgage meltdown in 2009, and so he sells it at a m- you [00:43:20] know, serious loss and moves back to Malibu, or moves to Malibu.

There's also a story about him bailing out his dad, and then this, you know, Mark Twain, uh, you know, act, uh, [00:43:30] Citizen Twain, it's called. Again- K- kind of

Isaac: self-financed,

Michael: right? Self-financed. Yeah. Right? And it's not like that's definitely raking it in, and there's a lot of movies in the IMDb that are straight to video.

Yeah. So he's just not... I [00:43:40] mean, it w- you know, he was playing Elvis, Jim Morrison, Batman, you know, Doc Holliday, Moses. Uh, and then all of a sudden he's, you know, he's like, "Well, [00:43:50] direct-to-video." Then I also think, and this was something I, somebody pointed out that I hadn't considered, um, who knows what his health insurance plan [00:44:00] was- Mm

but his cancer was probably very expensive. And, uh, you know, you can imagine more financial difficulty. So that all steered me to a [00:44:10] lower number. Plus the fact that he's, like, sort of saying, "I didn't manage my business affairs well. I just never figured that out. I'm not Tom Cruise. I'm not, you know, um, I, I'm [00:44:20] not like a lot of my contemporaries, and I guess I'm an idiot when it comes to that."

So, uh, so that was all the stuff that went into my thinking. I'm also really, really [00:44:30] bad at this category. I, the last, you know, I did, we did an episode on Dr. Ruth where I was off by over $100 million. I don't know, anything else you wanna add to the [00:44:40] mix before we, we give our guess?

Isaac: I know he had to, like, tour and sign autographs, you know, at the end of his, at the end of his life.

Michael: Let's go ahead and reveal. So, uh- All

Isaac: right. I put it in the chat?

Michael: Yeah, put it in [00:44:50] the chat. Okay. Here we go. All right. So Isaac Kestenbaum wrote down 5 million.

Isaac: Michael Osborne wrote down 12 million

Michael: All right, and, uh, the [00:45:00] actual net worth for Val Kilmer is 10 million. Ah. So estimated between 10 million and 25.

All right, so-

Isaac: All right. Do you know... All right, I actually [00:45:10] had 10 million in my script, and then as you were talking, I'm like, "It's too high. It's too..." I felt- It's too high. It

Michael: felt too high. Look, 10 million, you know, this is, this is, I think, my [00:45:20] favorite number. The best table at the net worth, uh, um, Famous Gravy net worth table is 20 million, but 10 is...

I think that's the right number, man. Mm-hmm. For a life [00:45:30] like this, with this kind of, you know, artistic pull and creative integrity, if he'd died with 10 million in Malibu and everybody is, like, trying to, you know, [00:45:40] say, like, "My God, what a great actor," I think we're in good company. Mm. Yeah, I think that's good.

So at $10 million, let's place him on the Famous Gravy Net Worth leaderboard. This is the second best, uh, [00:45:50] uh, dinner table in the afterlife. So also with 10 million, we have Aretha Franklin- Mm ... Roger Ebert, John Prine, Margaret Thatcher, [00:46:00] Florence Henderson, Steve Irwin, Maya Angelou, Louie Anderson, Leonard Cohen, Luke Perry, and Bill Russell.

That's a great table in the [00:46:10] afterlife. It's quite

Isaac: the mix.

Michael: Val Kilmer is right there. Oh, I love this. I love this. And this places him, uh, right at position 74 on the Famous Gravy Net [00:46:20] Worth leader board. Well done, Val. That's a good run, and it's- Yeah ... it was never about the money. It was never about the money.

Uh, okay, let's move on. Category five, Malkovich, [00:46:30] Malkovich, or Tiny Trophy. So this is the most confusing category we have on Famous Gravy. Uh, we either offer a tiny trophy, which is a sort of small award for some hidden accolade- [00:46:40] Mm-hmm ... or, uh, what we call a Malkovich, Malkovich moment. This is based on the movie Being John Malkovich, in which people can take a little portal into somebody's mind and have a front row seat [00:46:50] to one of their experiences.

Uh- So what do you got here?

Isaac: What I had for this, um, was the poster for Heat. Yeah. Um, if you look at that, uh, [00:47:00] apparently he's on there, like, right in between, like, the big heads of Al Pacino and Bob De Niro. And- Yeah ... the reason for that, he claims, is because, um, they [00:47:10] couldn't match his rate. Like, Heat's budget was lower than what he could command at the time, and so instead he requested, "Could you please put me on the poster in between these two great stars?"

And, uh, [00:47:20] that's what they did. It's such a good poster. Yeah . It's kinda like this little Easter egg, and he called it a Hollywood tone poem, uh, of a poster- Oh, that's awesome ... um, which I really liked. Yeah.

Michael: Ah, great one, dude. [00:47:30] Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

Isaac: Thanks. Thanks.

Michael: What I went with is he shockingly was never... Uh, not only did he never get an Academy Award, he was never nominated.

Mm. I think that that is [00:47:40] kind of incredible, because I do think he's an actor who transforms, who was very much in the thick of it. I, I guess I have a bit of a bias with Val Kilmer in that his career happened to [00:47:50] coincide, happened to e- like, he was, um, I guess, I don't know, 20 years older than me. A little less than that.

So his rise to fame, you know, tracks with [00:48:00] my childhood into adulthood, and, uh, a- and so he does happen to be in some of my favorite movies of all time. Heat and True [00:48:10] Romance most notable. But even, you know, The Doors. And I t- I love everything else we talked about. So I, I think I might just have a bias for how and when I encountered him.

But he never [00:48:20] got an award. He was nominated for a Grammy in 2012 for The Citizen Twain Project, and he lost to Betty White. And every time he [00:48:30] mentions this in an interview, he pretends like he has this major beef with Betty White, like she knows what she did.

Archival: I do have a bone to pick with Betty White. I saw her on your wall out there, [00:48:40] speaking of romance.

How could you be angry at Betty? Oh, 'cause she wants to be with Robert Redford and not you? No, 'cause she stole my Grammy. She didn't have enough awards or love or accolades, she has to go in [00:48:50] there and- What do you mean? ... manipulate the system. Betty, yeah. She stole my Grammy.

Michael: That's the thing, is that his [00:49:00] story and the, h- it's not even his story.

His vers- his story of himself is not settled exactly. There are times where he is [00:49:10] expressing a lot of surrender and gratitude and- Yeah ... serenity and peace. But then there's other times where he's like, "Yeah, I kinda stuck my foot in my mouth a lot. I kinda mismanaged my [00:49:20] career. I kinda wish I had more money now.

I kinda miss..." I mean, uh, you know, the interview with Larry King is before Top Gun comes around, and Larry King's like, "Would you like to be back in Hollywood?" He's like, "God, yes, I'm..." [00:49:30] He seems, like, desperate for roles. Yeah. You know? Um, so I think both things are a little bit true, but I, overall, I don't think he cares that much about awards, and I love that [00:49:40] he's picking a fight with Betty White.

So- I love that too ... that was my Tiny Trophy Award. That's

Isaac: amazing. That's so good. Oh,

Michael: yeah. Betty White.

Isaac: I

Michael: know. Of all people. Okay, let's take one more break.[00:49:50]

All right, category six, words to live by. In this category, we choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said [00:50:00] about them. Uh, what did you have here? I'm dying to know.

Isaac: Uh, I've got Roger Ebert.

Michael: I was really thinking about him with the loss of body too, you know? That he- Hmm.

Totally ... that he [00:50:10] loses his jaw- Right, right ... and, you know, has this sort of facial disfigurement. Right. And, um, there, there was a similar path with Val Kilmer losing his voice, like the thing he is sort of known for in [00:50:20] a way.

Isaac: Yeah.

Michael: Um-

Isaac: And they're at the table together, uh-

Michael: Yeah ...

Isaac: at the, in natural life- That, that's right

at the 20, at the $10 million table, right? At the

Michael: $10 million table. So yeah. There you go. Um- Okay, so Roger Ebert quote.

Isaac: So Roger Ebert about Val [00:50:30] Kilmer said If there is an award for the most unsung leading man of his generation, Val Kilmer should get it. In movies as different as Real Genius, Top Gun, Top Secret, he has [00:50:40] shown a range of characters so convincing that it's likely most people, even now, don't realize they were looking at the same actor

Michael: That's perfect.

Mm. That's perfect. I- that's the thing. [00:50:50] I- I- we know he's a good actor. I don't know that he often gets put in that category of, like, Daniel Day-Lewis, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Denzel Washington, uh, you know, Meryl [00:51:00] Streep- Mm ... the kind of, you know, truly transformative actors. And part of it is he's so beautiful, right?

Mm. He's such an attractive man that you [00:51:10] kind of forget, it's easy to forget or lose sight of how talented he is, you know?

Isaac: What'd you have?

Michael: This was a phrase, and I- I'm not sure if he said it or somebody said it [00:51:20] about him, um, but I, I haven't been able to let it go, and it gets back to the spiritual, uh, pursuit, um, and his faith in prayer.

[00:51:30] Uh, somewhere in the research I came across these words: "All prayers work. It's just that sometimes we don't like the answer."

Archival: Hmm.

Michael: I, um, [00:51:40] I wouldn't say I pray exactly. I don't get on my knees and say, you know, words that I've memorized. Um, but I do [00:51:50] have daily rituals, and I practice something in the realm of prayer and meditation, um, every day.

Mm-hmm. And I, and I try and do that every day, and [00:52:00] I've been thinking a lot about the power of prayer. And, uh, I don't think... And a- again, this is, I j- I wanna just be clear, I don't mean this in a religious context. This sort [00:52:10] of gets back to my take what you want and leave the rest behind idea. Mm-hmm. That I do think that a, a, a prayer in the most general sense is a [00:52:20] effort to have a conversation with something greater than you- Hmm

that may be a one-way conversation, but where you are opening yourself up to signals, and maybe in [00:52:30] Val Kilmer's case, it's coincidences. Mm. But I don't think it's a negotiation, right? I think if prayer works, it's not because you say, "Dear God, can I please have [00:52:40] $10 million," right? It's more like you say, "Dear God, change me so that I'm okay with whatever money I have."

Right. That it's, it's a change from the inside out, and [00:52:50] that's what I get from this phrase, "All prayers work. It's just that sometimes we don't like the answer." That, y- you know, it, it is about moving towards acceptance. Mm-hmm. [00:53:00] And, and, and that is something I absolutely see in his story. W- how perfect it was, we don't know, but based on what we do know, there was a lot more [00:53:10] intentionality to move- Mm

towards acceptance in all his affairs, in, in his financial affairs, with his romantic relationships, with the loss of his body. Uh, you know, [00:53:20] I, I... You really do see a man who moves towards it, and I think it's- Some of that is rooted in, in prayer. So those were my words to live by.

Isaac: I- [00:53:30] that's amazing, and I think moving, moving towards acceptance is, uh, it really encapsulates what I see as the arc of, you know, his career and certainly, or his life.

Um- Yeah ... you know? Yeah.

Michael: [00:53:40] And I didn't know that, man. When he died, I did not know that. Me neither, no. I wouldn't have thought I'd have seen that. I, it, and it, it's captured pretty well in the documentary, but it's sort of, like, it's sort of in the [00:53:50] interviews. It's sorta, it's pretty well represented in the documentary, but because it's, you know, him at the center of it, you're not sure how much to take it.

I think the external data on him, the [00:54:00] interview with Chuck Klosterman, The New York Times profile, um, you know, what other people had to say about him kind of gives more credence to- Mm ... the story he's telling about himself [00:54:10] in that documentary than I initially thought. It's, it's, it was an interesting one to watch bef- at the early stage of the research and then to return to again.

Isaac: Yeah.

Michael: Okay, category [00:54:20] seven, Man in the Mirror. This category asks a fairly simple question. Did this person like their reflection, yes or no? This is not a question of beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus [00:54:30] self-judgment. I didn't struggle here. No, yeah. I said yes, he liked it. I think early on, he does seem like maybe the world's most narcissistic man.

[00:54:40] You see him- He really likes it, yeah ... looking for the camera, right? Yeah. But yeah, I went a confident yes. Did you have other thoughts on this category?

Isaac: Confident yes also. Yeah, and I think, um, you know, [00:54:50] it's, uh, I think it's throughout his car- throughout his life, you know? E- like when you're young and, and super sexy, of course you're gonna like your, your, um, reflection, but I feel like he [00:55:00] always did.

Michael: All right, let's move on. Category eight, coffee, cocktail, or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most wanna do with our dead celebrity?

Isaac: Mm.

Michael: Uh, [00:55:10] I can kick us off if you want.

Isaac: Please do, yeah.

Michael: I wanna have a drink with Val Kilmer on the ranch on the Pecos River, you know, 45 minutes from, uh, Santa Fe.[00:55:20]

Mm-hmm. Uh, probably I'm thinking like a high-end tequila.

Isaac: Mm.

Michael: Um, and what I wanna talk about is great movies. I think he is a student of great [00:55:30] movies. I- there are these two stories of him trying to get on, um, work with really great directors. One was Stanley Kubrick, where he did this, uh, he [00:55:40] wanted to be in Full Metal Jacket.

Right. And even was, like, kinda shitty to Matthew Modine about this. And he sent this audition tape, and ended up flying to London with it. Uh, [00:55:50] and Kubrick's people were like, "That's nice. It's not really how we work." And then apparently a similar thing with Scorsese and Goodfellas. He wanted the Ray Liotta character, um, and w- like, [00:56:00] did his damnedest.

There's also an interesting yin and yang thing with, uh, Tom Cruise. I was thinking about this. Mm. Like, the whole Iceman-Maverick conflict sort of, [00:56:10] you know, uh, Tom Cruise winds up being in Born on the Fourth of July with Oliver Stone. Val Kilmer's in, uh, uh- The Doors ... The Doors, right? Mm-hmm. Um, [00:56:20] that, you know, Tom Cruise has Mission Impossible.

Val Kilmer's got The Saint. They both work with Michael Mann, uh, at, at some point. And there's a kind of weaving of [00:56:30] their stories. Yeah. And then, and then Val Kilmer fades away. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I would love to just talk to him about acting. Mm. I think that his real- his [00:56:40] friendship with Marlon Brando is really interesting.

Mm-hmm. Um, I think that he does... I, I, I don't know where it would go, but I am curious, not just, just [00:56:50] necessarily learn about his process, but what other roles he would point to as truly great roles, and, like, what he sees. I'd like to hear him talk about, you know, [00:57:00] the qualities that make for great acting. Mm.

He has a kind of contentious relationship with Juilliard.

Archival: Juilliard was good for you? Yeah. It was, uh, I think they've [00:57:10] changed and, uh, have a more, uh, uh, m- m- maybe more loving attitude than they had when I went there. So what was it? Just tough love? What it was was, [00:57:20] uh, Michel Saint Denis, who was a great man, and, uh, all this, this sort of style that, uh, ballet still, uh, stands by, which is basically, uh, uh, a, a [00:57:30] s- a kind of beating the, beating the, uh, talent into the act or beating it out of them.

I, I don't know.

Michael: So it's interesting the way h- [00:57:40] his, places where he gets challenged, you know, do serve him well in some ways and then don't in others. Or, or, or, or maybe do in ways that are not material, but that are [00:57:50] more, you know, uh, on a deeper level. Mm-hmm. But I think, you know, he's in his element. He talks about having great conversations outside at [00:58:00] his ranch in New Mexico.

Mm-hmm. You know, a nice stiff drink where we just loosen up a little bit and talk great movies, 'cause he's in great movies. He's a student of great movies. Yeah. [00:58:10] And I think I could do that all day with Val Kilmer. So that's the scene I want.

Isaac: Nice. I love that.

Michael: What do you got?

Isaac: Um, so I took the same [00:58:20] setting as you, um, but I went with a different substance.

Mm-hmm. So, um, I'm choosing coffee. Okay. Um, you know, Oliver Stone said that Val Kilmer was, like, eccentric. Um, and he s- and, uh, like, he said, um-[00:58:30]

Even by the standards of Hollywood, Val is, like, pretty out there. Yeah,

Archival: yeah, yeah, yeah.

Isaac: So, uh, I don't know if I want [00:58:40] Val consuming anything that's gonna increases, uh, the eccentric nature of him around me. He, he's sufficiently weird coming back in. I think he might get ins- Yeah, he might get insufferable, so I kinda wanna sober him up.

So I'm imagining that, um, I spent the night [00:58:50] at his ranch, and we wake up super early, like right m- before sunrise. Yeah. Um, and we have, like, a really strong cup of, like, cowboy coffee, like thick coffee. Hell yeah. And we just, we ride, we [00:59:00] ride horses up to the river. Yeah. And we sit there, and we're caffeinated, and we're just talking about...

Um, I wanna go the opposite direction. I wanna talk about his other creative endeavors.

Archival: Mm.

Isaac: So I wanna talk to him about, like, [00:59:10] the spaces he wants to create and, like, these other ideas that he has for, like, creating community and art and really just kinda get into, uh, sort of the, the big thinking that I was, um, talking [00:59:20] about and the thing I loved about him.

Michael: You... Man, I gotta say, I was thinking a lot about this in the lead-up to this conversation about what it means to, um, create your own luck on some level. I mean- Mm-hmm ... I [00:59:30] said this at the top of the conversation, that I think, you know, Val Kilmer's talent aligns with the sort of market demands early on in his [00:59:40] career.

Mm. And when they fall out, he's sort of like, "Okay..." He's trying to dissect that and understand it. "Was I a difficult personality? I guess I was. Are the scripts not as good? Has Hollywood, you know, just [00:59:50] not making great movies anymore or these great screenplays?" And I think there's truth in, in a lot of that.

As somebody who cares a lot about this podcast, [01:00:00] Um, you know, I... and has put a lot of work into it and wants, you know, great things for it, I'm, I... That's not even necessarily I want everybody in America to hear this show or anything like that. I [01:00:10] just, I want it to be sustainable. And, and there is a creative endeavor here, and there is a, there is a luck element, you know?

Mm-hmm. And I think that part of, uh, yeah, [01:00:20] and a timing component. And this show, Famous and Gravy, may really catch on, or it may have just been poorly timed, and it's a great thing. Allison reminded me the other day, I [01:00:30] wanna share this, you know- We're recording this shortly after I've relaunched the show, right?

Yeah. And Allison said, "You know, Michael, it, it may perform well, it may not, but no matter what, you're doing a very [01:00:40] cool thing." Yeah. Like, "This is a, this is a really cool show, and you need to feel proud about that no matter what." It was wonderful to hear her say that. It's like, of course, I always forget this lesson.

It's the journey, not the [01:00:50] destination. Yes. It's the journey, not the destination. Yeah. When am I gonna get that through my thick skull?

Isaac: That's all you talk about on the show.

Michael: Totally. And somehow I cannot apply those lessons to myself. What [01:01:00] is it about the human condition that we do this? Like, we're so good at dissecting other people's lives, and we cannot seem to turn it back around.

Totally. Which is the whole thing of this show.

Isaac: Yeah.

Michael: I think [01:01:10] that what Val Kilmer was trying to create on his ranch and in his space in Southern California was setting the table. Yeah. And that's all that is, right? Is, like, can you create the conditions for [01:01:20] creativity? Yeah. Can you bring people to physical, you know, ecological spaces, cultural spaces?

Can you bring, you know, different energies together? Can you bring novel [01:01:30] collaborations together? Mm-hmm. Um, and I think he cared a lot about that, and I could totally see you and him with a thick cup of coffee on the- Yeah ... shores of the Pecos River- Totally ... like [01:01:40] talking. And, and, and honestly, that obviously applies to you and to what you're doing at Salt.

I mean, you are- Yes, I think that's why it resonates ... absolutely creating... Totally, man. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, you are- Yeah ... you [01:01:50] know, it, it, it's, it's, your program is journalistic in an orientation, but it still requires an unbelievable amount of creativity. It's all about storytelling.

Isaac: Yes.

Michael: Right?

Yeah. And that you wanna [01:02:00] foster those conditions, you know, what can you learn from his efforts to do that? That would be a hell of a conversation.

Isaac: Totally, yeah, I was talking, talking about that. Yeah, I love that.

Michael: I think we've arrived, the final category, which [01:02:10] we are now calling the Pitch at the Pearly Gates, although I will say people want me to bring back the Vanderbeek.

They miss that net title. I don't know. Right now, it's the Pitch at the Pearly Gates. And this is, [01:02:20] uh, I just need to make this very clear, this is not a religious, uh, framing. This is, uh, the Pearly Gates are a kind of surrogate for the afterlife. [01:02:30] We wanna send somebody's soul into the universe and really make the case for the upward staircase.

Mm-hmm. I don't think this is a hard case to make. I mean, I think that there is inner conflict in his [01:02:40] life, and there... I think that he probably hurt people- Mm-hmm ... with, with his ego in places. Um, I think he came to see that. Um- To a [01:02:50] point. To a point. I- Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that there is a certain kind of lack of self-awareness that- 100%,

Isaac: yeah

Michael: is also, like, a through line of his story. Yeah. [01:03:00] Um, I'm willing to forgive that, right?

Isaac: I- I think it's a testament to the rest of him, how I find his lack of self-awareness endearing rather than- Yes ... insufferable.

Michael: Totally. [01:03:10] Totally. He really is like that friend, you're like, "Oh, God." I feel- All right,

Isaac: you know? I feel oddly protective of this, like of this guy who- Well, I

Michael: mean, I guess the world [01:03:20] needs artists, right?

Yeah. And I think that, like- Yeah ... I, I totally agree. Yeah. I totally, and- Yeah ... you know, some of it is the output. Some of it is- Yeah ... I just love these movies and these- Mm-hmm ... [01:03:30] roles and the risks and the failures, uh, as well as the, you know, however imperfect attempts at self-reflection towards the end and the what's it all about.

[01:03:40] And that's the case here. That's the obvious case here, is that he absolutely, you know, followed some kind of path of, you know, [01:03:50] early on ego and opportunity and, you know, material, uh, w- windfall and, and, you know, living the life. And then when that was taken [01:04:00] away from him in bits and pieces, first with the marriage and then with- Mm

career opportunities and then, then with, you know, later with the body, a- a- all along he seems [01:04:10] to, you know, actually reorient towards a good thing. That I, I am willing to forgive the lack of self-awareness because this is the exactly the path that I wanna follow. This is the upward staircase [01:04:20] laid out- Mm-hmm

for us, you know?

Isaac: I would just add that, like, I was shocked to find myself m- so moved by Val Kilmer's story in [01:04:30] the research for this episode. And, and talking it through with you, I feel moved again, and it's amazing.

Archival: How we feeling today, Doc? [01:04:40]

Isaac: Mommy dying. How are you?

Archival: Pretty much the same So now we can add self-pity to the list of frailties.

All right, Doc. [01:04:50] All right. How many cards you want? I don't want to play anymore

How many? [01:05:00] Damn you. You're the most fallible, stubborn, self-deluded, bullheaded man I've ever known in my [01:05:10] entire life. I call. You win. Yet, Whitfield, you're the only human being in my entire life that ever gave me hope[01:05:20]

What would you want? Just to live a normal life. [01:05:30] There's no normal life, Wyatt. There's just life. Now get on with it[01:05:40]

I'm sure you do. Say goodbye to me. Go grab that spirited [01:05:50] actress and make her your own Take that beauty and run. Don't look back. Live every second. Live right up the hill. Live wild[01:06:00]

Please forgive me[01:06:10]

Michael: Okay, speed round. Plugs for past shows. Isaac, if people liked this episode of Famous and Gravy, uh, [01:06:20] what's something from the back catalog you think they might enjoy?

Isaac: Um, I'm gonna go with the episode on Bill Paxton.

Michael: Yes. Oh, his, his, his counterpart in Tombstone. His

Isaac: [01:06:30] co-star in Tombstone. Yeah. Uh, his co-star in Tombstone.

Yeah. Yeah, and also, like, he died too young. Yeah. And sort of like, uh, p- you know, not [01:06:40] necessarily a leading man, but, like, around, and I think, um, certainly there's lots of differences too, but I think there's enough overlap that they'd be a really great, uh, double feature.

Michael: I'm so glad you brought this [01:06:50] one up.

I, uh, gave Bill Paxton the, uh, IMDb MVP award- Yes, yeah ... because his I- IMDb is so exceptional. Yeah. I was thinking about that as I was thumbing through Val Kilmer's [01:07:00] IMDb. I think Bill Paxton still gets it. If I'm on a desert island- Oh, yeah ... I want all of his movies rather than- Yeah ... all of Val's. But Val is, I think, uh, gets the silver medal there.

Uh, I'm gonna go Betty [01:07:10] White. I... It's been a while since I've plugged this episode, and, uh, Betty White is... I just loved that episode. She's such a beloved figure. And I, uh, yeah, that was [01:07:20] episode 50 for us. That was sort of an, a important, uh, midpoint mark- Mm ... of everything. So, um, I also love this beef that Val Kilmer has with it.

So, [01:07:30] okay. Oh, yeah. Episode 50, Golden Rose, Betty White, and Episode 51, Goofball Stud, Bill Paxton. All right. Here is a little preview for the next [01:07:40] episode of Famous and Gravy.

Sam: So I wondered what we would have said about Jesus at the time he died.

Michael: Famous and Gravy [01:07:50] listeners, we love hearing from you. If you wanna reach out with a comment, a question, or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com.

In our show, show notes, we include all kinds [01:08:00] of links, including to our website, our social channels, and our Substack. You can subscribe to our Substack at famousandgravy. uh, substack.com. It is free. You can just click "No [01:08:10] thanks" if they ask you to pay money. Famous and Gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me, Michael Osborne.

Thank you so much to Isaac Kestenbaum from the Salt Institute for joining us [01:08:20] for this ins- uh, episode. It was produced by Jacob Weiss with original music by Kevin Strang. See you next [01:08:30] [01:08:40] time.