134 Star-Spangled Voice (Whitney Houston)

Who Was Whitney Houston?

Whitney Houston had the greatest pure voice of her generation — a three-octave instrument so powerful that when Diane Sawyer asked her to name her biggest devil, she didn't say cocaine or Bobby Brown. She said: me.

She grew up in the church, was signed by Clive Davis as a teenager, and became the biggest-selling female artist in history before she'd had any real chance to figure out who she actually was. The Bodyguard soundtrack still outsells every other soundtrack ever made. Her 1991 Super Bowl national anthem charted as a single. And off camera, she was a goofball who did voices and impressions and never stopped joking — a person almost nobody got to see.

FULL TRANSCRIPT of our episode:

John: [00:00:00] This is Famous and Gravy, biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. Now, here's the [00:00:10] quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2012, age 48. For much of the 1990s, she turned to acting. She's responsible for the [00:00:20] best-selling soundtrack of all time, a record that holds to this day.

Friend: Best-selling soundtrack. I think it's a, it's a girl. I like that, but I... Oh. But soundtracks. [00:00:30]

Yeah. Well, is it Olivia Newton-John?

Michael: It is not Olivia Newton-John.

Friend: Oh, okay.

Michael: In the 2000s, her personal life and marriage became a [00:00:40] fixture of tabloids.

Friend: That's so many... That could be so many people, and so many people that are still alive.

Brittany Murphy, but I feel like the timeline is wrong.

Michael: [00:00:50] Not Brittany Murphy. She was the daughter of a singer who had backed up Aretha Franklin. No.

Friend: Oh, baby, I got it. Who? What, [00:01:00] um, uh, not... She was 48. Uh,

not, um...

Michael: Her range spanned [00:01:10] three octaves, and her voice was plush, vibrant, and often spectacular.

Friend: The best-selling soundtrack is not made by some 48-year-old woman.

Like, I mean, obviously it is, but I'm thinking, like, [00:01:20] Chariots of Fire. I'm thinking Saturday Night Fever.

Michael: Her hits include I Wanna Dance With Somebody, and her signature song, Dolly Parton's I Will Always Love You. [00:01:30]

Friend: Oh,

Whitney Houston? Whitney Houston? Is it Whitney Houston?

Whitney

Archival: Houston.

Friend: Not Whitney Houston.

That was the wrong time. [00:01:40] Right.

Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Whitney Houston. Oh.[00:01:50]

Archival: One of the things my mom told me is that, um, look out for disappointments and then rejection, and if it doesn't work out, don't worry about it. Go do something else, you know? You can do anything you [00:02:00] wanna do. This may sound like such a simple question, but why do you love singing so much? What kind of a feeling does it give you?

I love it so much because it's a part of me. [00:02:10] Um, it kinda, like, runs in my blood, you know, if you know what I mean. Um, it makes me feel and, and the thing that's most important, it makes other people feel. [00:02:20] Um, if I can just say one word and someone will say, "Oh my God, you really touched me. I mean, what you said here, what you said there, it really just floored me," I mean, [00:02:30] that's worth it all

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

John: And I'm John Watts.

Michael: And on [00:02:40] this show, we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography what didn't we know what could we not see clearly and [00:02:50] what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today Whitney Houston died 2012 age 48 How you doing, man?[00:03:00]

John: I'm doing okay. It's been a rough-

Michael: It's a rough-

John: This is hard doing the- It, it's hard doing

Michael: the- ...

John: the research on Whi- Yeah, no. I, I- But I've been preparing for this moment my [00:03:10] entire life This is it. As soon as I leave here, I think I just float-

Michael: Yeah ...

John: to the heaven. I think that it's like an assumption. Like,

Michael: uh- This is the culmination.

This is-

John: Body and [00:03:20] soul go up. I

Michael: just- This is peak John,

John: John Watts moment ... I think this is all I needed to do on this earth, and then I'm good.

Michael: When I proposed Whitney Houston- ... you got a little emotional. I,

John: I think [00:03:30] I actually screamed. I- Because I didn't know that this was available to me for some reason.

Yeah. And but here we are.

Michael: So, uh, I should [00:03:40] say, um, John Watts has, uh, y- appeared in a number of previous Famous Gravy episodes. You were with us for Steve Irwin, Jerry Springer, Richard Simmons, one of my [00:03:50] favorites, Michael Crichton, and Sinéad O'Connor, and now of course, Whitney Houston. Do you have... Okay, a couple questions really

John: quick.

Michael: This is my comeback. Yeah. Do you have a master's degree as a librarian?

John: Yes, library [00:04:00] science.

Michael: That's really cool.

John: Old school.

Michael: Oh, yeah, but I mean- All old school ... uh, w- why? Like, why does- Wh- what, what led you to that?

John: Lord, I don't, [00:04:10] I don't know. No, but you

Michael: must be a book person of some kind.

John: I mean, I love books, yes, but I think it was- So was that part of it?

I mean- I think I, I think if you h- are, are uptight in any way- Mm ... and, um, [00:04:20] uh, there's a g- it, it, there's a place for you in library science. There's a fastidiousness to- There is a place for you there to just sit in a tower and- Yeah ... um, organize things.

Michael: Like, did you wanna be a [00:04:30] librarian when you grew up? Was that part of it?

John: Oh, God, no. I wanted to be Whitney Houston's- Okay ... backup singer.

Michael: Okay.

John: Okay. If you have a singer like Whitney Houston, there is something [00:04:40] about these songs where I think if you can be in a car listening to I'm Your Baby Tonight, and you can sing with, like, that kinda ugly backup face, like [00:04:50]

Michael: Yeah,

John: yeah, yeah.

Like, "Looks like I'm fatal, I'm ready and able." Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you got that face going and you get... Like, there's something about that that- There's something liberating ... unleashes the... Yeah, it is [00:05:00] liberating. It is a, um, it is a, a, a freedom, um, that I, I don't know, I enjoy.

Michael: I have a real theory about freedom and liberation-

John: [00:05:10] Yeah

Michael: that I wanna bring into this conversation, and I think it's gonna make for a good, a good back and forth about Whitney Houston, 'cause I think there's a lot to this story about some of those themes.

John: Okay. [00:05:20] You've been in, you've been listening to her music. Like, tell me you have not queened out at least once or twice listening to one or two songs.

Michael: I wanted to and didn't, but [00:05:30]

John: I think that- You didn't take your finger and go- ... speaks to my own... I

Michael: did n- I did not.

John: With... You didn't do any of this.

Michael: I should have. No, but I-

John: What song would you do it to?

Michael: I think I'd probably go with- [00:05:40] Hmm, that's a good question. I think I probably would go with I Will Always Love You.

I'm sorry. I know how- Okay ... overplayed it is, but her interpretation of it, the Dolly roots, [00:05:50] and, and even, like, to this day, the drumbeat that you hear right- Boom ... before she goes for it. Yeah. Um, really, like, to this day, still is, like, okay, [00:06:00] I can't deny that's powerful.

John: Right.

Michael: You know? I mean, it's, it's- You're

John: gonna be singing your face off.

Michael: I'm gonna break my voice. I am gonna- Sing

John: your face

Michael: off

John: in the car ... I'm

Michael: gonna stretch my throat and I [00:06:10]

John: won't be- Just the thought of this- ... able to talk for a week ... uh, the image in my head right now is just g- I mean, it's pure joy.

Michael: Let's do this episode. All right. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary.

[00:06:20] Whitney Houston, the multimillion-selling singer who emerged in the 1980s as one of her generation's greatest R&B voices, only to deteriorate [00:06:30] through years of cocaine use and an abusive marriage, died on Saturday in Beverly Hills, California. She was 48. [00:06:40] John, initial reaction

John: I want him to come down here and say that to my face.

A fundamental miss-

Michael: Yeah ... of- I, I, [00:06:50] I, I, I find it- ...

John: an opening

Michael: line ... insulting in a lot of ways

John: I'm insulted, and I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm pissed.

Michael: Okay, so I have- Say it to my face ... the same reaction. Why? Why?

John: We get one [00:07:00] positive clause.

Michael: Yeah.

John: We get a positive clause.

Michael: And it's about sales,

John: right? And it's about sales.

Michael: Multi-million selling singer. There's no- Of course ... honoring of her talent in here. Of the actual voice. There's

John: not, [00:07:10] like... Yeah. She's the voice. Right. And you don't even bring that up. And then we, I mean, oh, God, and they just, just immediately start dragging her into the wreckage.

Michael: Y- right. She was [00:07:20] s- you know, financially successful.

Does not say- No ... that she was gifted, that she was, like... And the main thing, this is part of the story with her.

John: Her- Once-in-a-generation- [00:07:30]

Michael: Yeah ... voice, uh- I mean, her ability, her range, her multiple octaves. Like, I, I don't, I lack the skills and vocabulary to describe her talent. Yeah. But [00:07:40] it is self-evident, and it's not pointed to in here.

I mean, they do say, "One of the generation's greatest R&B voices." I actually, like, [00:07:50] R&B? She- Is that how you would've- She w- I would've said pop ...

John: well, she transcended genre in a lot of ways. Like, she did pop in the beginning, and R&B, and I mean, she, you know, you look at just The [00:08:00] Bodyguard soundtrack alone, it had all different types of music in it.

So, uh, she was doing some funk. It was great. Like, she had, I, I don't feel like R&B fully describes her.

Michael: Yeah.

John: And then it's, the [00:08:10] word only here, only to, it just

Michael: feels like it's doing- Only to deteriorate ...

John: a lot of work.

Michael: Yeah. It's- Deteriorate is, um, a-

John: Deteriorate ...

Michael: a painful word.

John: Oof.

Michael: It's, it's not [00:08:20] totally inaccurate, though.

Let's- No ... be honest. I mean, it, you know, there was a, I hate to say it, a kind of, uh, l- [00:08:30] loss of, of, um, well, loss here throughout her life. Mm-hmm. Like, I mean, okay, that they went with cocaine use, I would've just said drugs [00:08:40] generally. I don't know why, uh, why we have to single out white powder. And-

John: She went st- they went straight to the coc-

Michael: Yeah, I know, and the abusive marriage, too.

Yeah. That, I mean, [00:08:50] there's truth in that. Oh,

John: absolutely.

Michael: But it also feels like it is actually feeding a public narrative that I'm not actually sure [00:09:00] how accurate it totally was. I do think it was a, um, a, a codependency. Mm-hmm. You know, her and Bobby Brown, it was a, it was [00:09:10] an ugly marriage, and we got to see ugly sides of it in the reality TV and in the tabloids.

But I think it's actually more complicated than that. Mm-hmm. This wasn't exactly Ike and [00:09:20] Tina Turner. Mm-hmm. You know? And, and that's, when you read abusive marriage, it kind of reads that way. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so I, I, I felt like- [00:09:30] This is what we think we know her for, but it's not actually the story.

Yeah. Or it's just it lacks any kind of nuance. I don't

John: [00:09:40] know. It just goes, you know, the effect is, uh, im- immediately goes into the cautionary tale of it all.

Michael: Yeah.

John: That we seem to only be able to perpetuate about her. If you bring up Whitney [00:09:50] Houston, it just sort of feels like all we do is say like, "Oh, what a shame," you know, which is true.

It is, but I feel like, like there's still so much more that we... You know, it just, it just [00:10:00] clouds the everything else we love about her. Yeah. And, um, it just, it, it... For the obituary to go straight there feels really raw-

Michael: I mean- ... and

John: [00:10:10] inappropriate to me.

Michael: I was thinking, you know, th- they some- they often pre-write obituaries, right?

John: Mm-hmm.

Michael: They usually do it when somebody's in their 80s and 90s. [00:10:20] I don't think they pre-wrote this one. But I felt like they maybe should have had something in the works. Are you giving him an out? No. I am not

John: giving him an out.

Michael: No.

John: No. No, no,

Michael: no, no, no. I

John: would have been-

Michael: I'm not, I'm not g- I'm not

John: giving- I would [00:10:30] have woken up at 4:00 AM ready to go to write this out if I knew, if she, if he found out Whitney died.

Get ready. So,

Michael: okay, if you-

John: Start working on it ...

Michael: without being specific, if you [00:10:40] were to rewrite this into a better obituary, it would point more and highlight her unique talent, and it would be a little less of a [00:10:50] cautionary condemnation of her, like- Yeah ... of her story.

John: Yeah. And I think, like, you know, it's just sort of the, it, we started with the, the vague multi-million selling.

I think, you know, [00:11:00] what about The Bodyguard? The, the number one selling soundtrack to this day. I mean, that's it. You know, there's, there's so much more.

Michael: I got curious about this. So do you wanna know the whole list? Num- Bodyguard, I was [00:11:10] surprised, number one selling soundtrack to this day.

John: Take that Titanic

Michael: and Celine Dion.

What do you think's number... Do you wanna guess at number two or three? So

John: the- Is it Titanic?

Michael: No. Titanic is number four. Okay. Um, number [00:11:20] two is Saturday Night Fever. Uh- No way ... number three, Dirty Dancing. Um- Hell

John: yeah,

Michael: it is. And then, uh- Hell yeah ... four, Titanic, five, Grease. And I'll [00:11:30] just go through it. Six, Purple Rain, seven, Lion King, eight- Hmm

Flashdance, nine, Forrest Gump, and 10, Footloose. There's a lot of, uh- Okay ... famous and trendy themes on here. We've done Prince, we did, [00:11:40] uh, you know, Patrick Swayze, Lion King. Forrest Gump. We did James Earl Jones. Anyway. Yeah. Um, I felt a little bit insulted as well. Yeah. I, 'cause you and I talked about this a little bit before the [00:11:50] recording.

Mm-hmm. And I, I, I do feel like there are some cautionary tale themes here, just not in the way we think about them. I think, like, the [00:12:00] superficial blunt version of cautionary tale- Right ... is drugs are bad. And- Drugs are bad.

John: Don't marry the wrong guy.

Michael: Exactly. Yeah. And I feel like that really misses-

John: So [00:12:10] reductive

Michael: uh, other lessons you can draw even if you do look at the life story and feel like, uh, on balance, this was, there's a lot of tragedy in here. Hmm. And I think that [00:12:20] that, that is true. Um-

John: Yeah, the, there's, there's so much more of a, a perfect storm element to, to all of it, where so many things were at play- Yeah

that drove her [00:12:30] into this, kind of, um, this, this decline. We can say that stuff later. Yeah. We can talk about that, but I think, you know, maybe she could have been celebrated a little bit more [00:12:40] in the opening sentence.

Michael: What do you got for a score, then?

John: I gave it a two

Michael: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. I said four. Um-

John: Okay. I'm, I'm not giving...

I mean-

Michael: No, I-

John: I don't even think there's a lot of... [00:12:50] There's not great accuracy ...

Michael: you're, you're hurt here. I can see that. And, uh, I'm

John: here to- You're holding space for

Michael: me? I'm, yes.

John: I'm giving it a two. Hold space for

Michael: my two?

John: Yeah. I thought I, [00:13:00] I thought I was gonna have to persuade you to come down. Yeah,

Michael: I, I'm gonna s- I think I'm gonna stick with my four.

John: Okay, stick with your four. Go ahead, I don't care.

Michael: But I s- I see your two.

John: I'm a solid two. I

Michael: [00:13:10] see your two. Hard

John: two.

Michael: All right. And let's move on, category two, uh, five things I love about you. Here, John and I will develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this [00:13:20] person was and how they lived.

I know you've got a lot. Uh, why don't you lead us off here?

John: Okay, this one is not necessarily based in fact. It's a lot of just kind of on vibes, but [00:13:30] I'd like to think that, um, she's not a parody, she's the standard. Mm. So in, uh, the queer community, there is, we, [00:13:40] we lean a lot toward just dragging things, making fun of things, making fun of the status quo, norms, celebrities and their quirks.

Michael: Yeah. [00:13:50]

John: Um, but I've found that Whitney seems to be hallowed ground in terms of, especially in sort of the drag community. Like, you don't [00:14:00] do a making fun of Whitney sweaty, on cocaine kind of interpretation of her, and if you do, you're not gonna get tipped.

Michael: Interesting. Right. [00:14:10] Okay. So why? Why not? I mean, so she, there's something sacred about her?

John: Yeah, I think she's... If she's like, obviously this sort of, uh, you know... Because we think about the [00:14:20] sacredness of this, especially after her passing. I think, you know, drag is built on this idea of exaggeration, humor, pushing things to the edge, but it's so sad because she was such a, a [00:14:30] talent, and it went so poorly- Yeah

um, that there's kind of this line with her, um, that you can honor her, um, [00:14:40] but you, uh, you can channel her, you know, but you can't play her as a joke. And there's just ex- small examples of this where, you know, in RuPaul's Drag Race, this TV [00:14:50] show, somebody tried to do Whitney Houston on one of their episodes and do the sweaty kind of, you know, coked out Whitney, and got like a really terrible edit, you know?

Yeah. [00:15:00] And other people in the community were kind of like, "Mm, we don't really do that here." Um, and I think there's just a, every time I've ever seen a, a, you know, [00:15:10] somebody do a Whitney Houston song, um, as a drag performer, it's typically out of respect. Um- S-

Michael: so okay, does this... I don't mean to overly center this or talk about [00:15:20] it too much, but there are very- credible reasons to believe she wa- she was closeted in some way.

Mm-hmm. You see that this woman, Robyn, who wrote a book, who said [00:15:30] Whitney and I were lovers at a younger age. Right, Robyn.

John: Robyn, a very handsome woman.

Michael: Yes. Um, and very, and, and preceded Bobby Brown, but was part, uh, [00:15:40] in, in their courtship, but was, like, part of the inner circle for a lot of Whitney's life until, until, you know, drugs took over and so on.

Sort of led the entourage, right? Right. And, and, [00:15:50] um, but I mean, is that part of it, you think, in terms of the hallowed earth? That there might have been some, um, l- sort of part of her that was [00:16:00] closeted? She was- Because her family would not have accepted that. That, that- Right ... that's pretty clear. That's evident, yeah.

Based on their, um, you know, sort of religion.

John: Yeah, and I think that's also part of it. Yeah. Yeah. That we, we sort [00:16:10] of, we protect our own. Yeah. You know? Um, and, uh, and so knowing that about her bisexuality- Right ... um, you know, uh, would have, I think definitely- Which I [00:16:20] did

Michael: not know, by the way.

John: It, it was rumored even at the very beginning of her career.

Yeah, early on. And they were like, the fam- the family was trying to shut it all down. Totally. And Clive Davis trying to shut it all down.

Michael: I mean, this is, there's actually a lot [00:16:30] of this. This actually bleeds pretty well into my thing number two.

John: Yeah.

Michael: Um, so maybe I'll just go there. I, I have, my thing number two was she's every woman, and here's, uh, yeah, I'm [00:16:40] every...

This is the thing. I was, I forgot to point out. She's every woman. I can't believe you're wearing a Whitney Houston shirt.

John: I'm wearing Whitney's, my Whitney- When

Michael: did you get the shirt?

John: I got this, like, years ago. Yeah. I usually wear it, you know, [00:16:50] around the house. It's a

Michael: great shirt. I mean-

John: It's a great shirt.

It's her-

Michael: So part, a- and, and it does capture- 1985 album ... the princess presentation of her. Yes. Right? And [00:17:00] okay, one thing that happened for me as I was getting ready for this episode is, like, I can't believe how many of these songs I know, and not just, like, kind of know. Like, know all of [00:17:10] the lyrics to. Yes. I never bought a Whitney Houston album.

I can't point to any of my friends who would've said, "Yeah, I just picked up a Whitney Houston album." Uh. S- and something about the ubiquity of her in a pretty [00:17:20] critical phase of my life,

John: you know? In the '80s and '90s? Yeah.

Michael: Right, um, especially '80s in a way, but and I, I guess I did listen to a lot of pop radio, but so okay, she's every [00:17:30] woman.

What I mean with that is that image and reality were never the same. She is presented as this, you know, princess, as a symbol of purity in a lot of ways, [00:17:40] um, at a young age. And she, even before she got famous, like in her 16, 17, had a reputation as a party girl. Yeah. You know? And [00:17:50] the, the, it's not like she first did drugs once Bobby Brown showed up.

No. Which was part of this public narrative. I, I, I like that- [00:18:00] The, what you think you see is not who she really is. It is, um, that gets problematic obviously, and I [00:18:10] think that part of what I see in her story and her struggle and her journey with addiction is, uh, an, on some [00:18:20] level an inability to know herself and be at peace with herself.

Um, but I am sort of, you know, it- [00:18:30] Interested. I like, I, I, uh, actually, you know, here's the thing I really love, John, and it- it's more of a lesson that's universal to me. I think we all deal with this on some level. Hmm. [00:18:40] I think we all have a story of who we think we're supposed to be and who we actually are, and reconciling those stories in ourselves is like the great project [00:18:50] of adulthood and, uh, and to some extent, spiritual growth.

And I, I like that she's a complicated person. Like, she's every woman. Uh, [00:19:00] you know, a little bit, a little bit of a funny thing to love, but, uh, I'm impressed with her complexity.

John: Yeah. I

Michael: mean- You know what I'm trying to get at?

John: Yeah. It's sort of like, um, you know, if [00:19:10] there's something about me, too, that I think personally just that I, I need

If I'm gonna be friends with someone, I, I need them to be a little up, to be-

Michael: Yeah. You know what I mean? [00:19:20] Like, I- I need you to have a problem ... it, it, I need you to be a little- Otherwise, what are we gonna talk about? What are we doing here? Yeah. Exactly. Are we gonna talk

John: about our lawns? I can't, like, yeah.

Michael: I mean, this is, I think, what I mean by the [00:19:30] universal lesson is that just about anybody I meet, I, I always

I don't do this, but I think it would be a healthy, uh, attitude for me to have with any [00:19:40] fr- new encounter, what I think I'm seeing and who's actually there- Hmm ... are not the same thing. Yeah. And that, and that part of what is interesting is to try to, [00:19:50] uh, resolve on some sense that what we see and what, well, you know, what we s- what we see on the outside and what's actually in there.

John: Yeah, and I think it was so, yeah, then sort of halfway [00:20:00] through her career, it felt like the mask sort of fell a bit. Yeah. Right? And she could just kind of be herself.

Michael: Yeah.

John: And that, to I think some extent, really disappointed people or [00:20:10] something. Like, that, that, oh, she wasn't this pop princess or, you know, uh, prom queen that, that we- she was initially sort of slated to be.

Right. And, um, the-

Michael: Or that we like almost [00:20:20] cast her as, or, and as, as she was packaged-

John: Packaged ...

Michael: to be on some level.

John: Yeah. Right? Through the, the Clive Davis machine. Right. Right? And her parents, and they kinda wanted this, you know, squeaky clean image. [00:20:30] But she became, she was allowed to be herself, and that's really the Whitney I love.

Yeah. You know? Like, it's the, the, that messiness of, um, and the, uh, the way she was with interviews [00:20:40] later on in life I thought was, was more spectacular to watch and see, and see inside her than, than any of the earlier things.

Archival: Nothing prepared me for the icy, [00:20:50] tense atmosphere at our interview in New York promoting her new CD, My Love Is Your Love.

Whitney arrived an hour and a half late, gave the evil [00:21:00] eye to everyone in the room, and in an act of defiance in an elegant setting, kicked her shoes off and stuck her stockinged feet on the table. Did you just pick the wrong business? Mm-mm. I'm in the right business, just wrong [00:21:10] people. Well, how, what do you do about that?

You don't. You do what you do. You sing. You [00:21:20] sing on 'em. You know? You sing 'em underneath the floor.

Michael: I think that, that her [00:21:30] fame at a young age and her really, like, unprecedented success, um, and the fact that she was told by her mother, who [00:21:40] herself was successful gospel singer- Yeah ... backed up Aretha Franklin, um, "You have a gift from God," and that, that was a, a key part of her story that I, I feel like [00:21:50] she never quite got to sort of e- e- explore and, and take complete ownership of that on some level.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Anyway, um, I think, uh, some of those ideas will [00:22:00] come up more as the conversation goes on. Why don't we go on to number three? What do you got?

John: I have gave proof through the night that she was that girl.

Michael: Okay. This is in reference to [00:22:10] The Star-Spangled Banner?

John: Yes. I just need everyone to really understand that Whitney Houston made The Star-Spangled Banner a hit song.[00:22:20] [00:22:30] [00:22:40]

Good. 1991- Yeah ... Super Bowl, and I don't even believe in sports, but [00:22:50] this was an iconic moment I don't

Michael: believe in sports. Sorry. I'm constitutionally incapable-

John: No, I understand that ... of accepting sports into my life. It's too complex for me. Yeah. But, so I don't believe in it, but I think [00:23:00] that this was such a huge moment.

Um, it was not just a great performance, but it was a single that charted.

Michael: Yeah.

John: In time. Yeah, yeah. Like, [00:23:10] uh, it- It

Michael: is rousing. She takes it to a different place than anybody else. A- I even, even more than Jimi Hendrix.

John: Okay. Yeah. Well, I

Michael: like the Jimi Hendrix version. I,

John: I love it, too. [00:23:20] Yeah, I think it... But yeah, it's just one of those things that's just so powerful but controlled.

Mm-hmm. Um, and I just, uh, I think that what's just such an interesting fact that I [00:23:30] learned through this was that her team actually made this genius decision to put it... So it's originally, um, in 3/4 waltz time. Okay. Um, uh, [00:23:40] and, uh, they put it in 4/4, which gave her more room to kind of make it her own. Yeah. Um, and so that shift is, sounds really small, but it changes kind of [00:23:50] everything in terms of it sort of takes it from that anthem, um, which is a little stiff, uh, and makes it a little bit more gospel.

Michael: Yeah.

John: Um, by adding that- Huh, interesting ... [00:24:00] um, that room to kind of play around with, the sounds and the runs- Yeah ... that she was doing there. And I thought that was just an interesting kind of thing that they did, because it, it does sound [00:24:10] different, um, the way that it's played. I mean, basically a brand-new song.

Michael: Right. There's

John: a lot of

Michael: reclaiming. It's almost like

John: we hadn't heard it before. H-

Michael: yeah, right. And- Like ... this is actually a pretty, this [00:24:20] is actually a really good segue into my number four. Yeah. I just wrote, um, joyous. Mm. I mean, what, I don't know if that was always true, but at the peak of her [00:24:30] powers, her singing is, to me, fundamentally joyous.

Like, I hear, um, a catharsis. I hear... And the thing is, again, I'm not, like, a [00:24:40] huge fan exactly, right? Um- But, but there is a, uh, perfection [00:24:50] to her, to her skill that, I mean, those pipes are really something else. Yeah. And, um, and I do think that there is a kind of, [00:25:00] like, infectious e- exuberance, uh, a- about her music that w- w- even though these aren't my songs, there's a reason they occupy [00:25:10] some of my neurons- Mm-hmm

and some of my

John: brain space. I think, honestly, a lot of her... the... it for me is the, the contrast. So she can go from, you know, the f- she has the three [00:25:20] octave range, but she goes from this sort of, like, deep, growly, you know- Yeah ... um, uh, sort of gospel soul into this, like, soaring high note. [00:25:30] It so- Soaring

Michael: is a good

John: word

it soars. And so we, so we are, are sort of hearing just, um, the, the sort of, I think the s- the scale of her [00:25:40] range. Kind of it p- it provides... It give, gives us more emotion- Yeah ... to the song, and I think her interpretations of the song, because, um, she was sort of a playful, [00:25:50] um, childlike person. I'm looking at a lot of her footage, you know, just home footage of her.

She was a goofball.[00:26:00]

Archival: From Texas a long time ago. I went around the railroad[00:26:10]

In a little country schoolhouse where the kids all used to go, sat a little little fellow[00:26:20]

I'm gonna leave What is the location? Hey, beef vendor Off stage. I'm not on the stage, but I'm front row[00:26:30]

Put a little money in my pocket Like, I got my own thing.

John: If you've ever h- spent any time with a theater kid [00:26:40] in your life, just- I think I

Michael: am right

John: now. You're right now, right? I can see it right here. Doing... She's just, you know, she's constantly, um, uh, doing, you know, sort of weird voices [00:26:50] and, uh, uh, impersonations and joking, and she's...

So I feel like there's a lot of that in, in her music, too. She could just kind of take it and go from all these different [00:27:00] ranges, and made it playful and soaring, but also gruff.

Michael: I really like that marijuana was one of her drugs. I do wonder if maybe she might have, if she had [00:27:10] not been famous, maybe she'd have just been really good to get high with.

I guess that's gonna come up in a future category. Yeah, right? But I do see a kind of like, uh, I, I know what you mean in terms of, like, [00:27:20] a silliness almost. She

John: was so silly. Yeah. Like, anything I ever saw of her out, out behind the scenes, she's just, like, goofing off.

Michael: And that actually looks real to me. Oh.

That doesn't, I, I, you know.

John: You know, [00:27:30] she was just so low-key funny in so many ways, um, in, uh, in interviews that, you know, uh, I feel like, is this my time where I get to bring up Oprah like I do every other

Michael: episode? Yeah, go ahead. [00:27:40] Well, I figure I'd do, here we are.

John: I think-

Michael: Drink. Yeah.

John: Part of my writer. Yeah, like Oprah at, at the p- at her peak used to have this, uh, song at the opening of her show [00:27:50] that Oprah sang and recorded and performed and it was so bad.

Archival: See what the end will be. Believe I'll work on. Ooh,

John: ooh. Find [00:28:00] out what waits for me. But Whitney Houston would go on her show twice and make fun of her for s- for singing that song. Do

Archival: you have an all-time favorite song? My all-time favorite, [00:28:10] Yesterday. Really? "All my troubles seemed so far away." Yeah, I love that song.

I don't know. Really? Yeah. You thought it was my mind? No, yeah, I thought it was gonna be yours. No. [00:28:20] No. 'Cause I do like- "I think I'm going to run away." No, no.

John: She was funny and, uh, yeah, but I think that she was really, uh, yeah, playful.

Michael: Yeah. Uh, [00:28:30] all right, what do you got for number five?

John: No divas, just duets. Uh, I mean, she wasn't- She's

Michael: not a diva.

Exactly, right?

John: She's not a diva, and I think the music industry, especially in the '80s, [00:28:40] '90s, and 2000s, sort of loved to pit women against each other. Uh-

Michael: I think that there is a tendency in the entertainment industry to create rivalries that look a lot [00:28:50] like sports rivalries. Yeah. And I think that, uh, Whitney versus, uh, w- who, I guess Paula Abdul- Mariah

and Mariah Carey. That's the big one. Yeah. [00:29:00] And she, like by all accounts, was, like, cool with that, and she did music with Mariah at one point, right?

John: Yeah, they sang a duet together, uh, for The Prince of Egypt. Yeah, I think over and over [00:29:10] again, she chose to lift up other women.

Michael: Yeah.

John: Um, yeah. Like, she and Mariah Carey went on Oprah and said, like, "Hey, we're not fighting.

Here's our duet." And then, um, you know, and I think she's just sort of [00:29:20] rejected that narrative. Um- Yeah ... she was, uh, she supported Aaliyah. Um, she was gonna put her in one of, uh, one of her films. Um, and I mean, there's just, there was Natalie [00:29:30] Cole, um- Yeah ... and, and Whitney were constantly- um, put up for the same award at different award ceremonies, and Whitney would always win.

Finally, Natalie Cole [00:29:40] wins, and Whitney is cheering for her, and this is like '92 when she was at her height. Yeah. And, and she's just, she's so happy for Natalie Cole to win, and, um, [00:29:50] it's actually kind of a big meme that we use a lot is sort of, uh, her pointing at Natalie and Natalie pointing back. Like- Oh, really?

Yeah. Um, I use it whenever anyone says like fun- something [00:30:00] funny. Yeah. Yeah. And everyone's like, "Ah, look at you." But yeah, so it's, uh, you know, we think like e- uh, even in her song I'm Every Woman that you brought up- Yeah ... you know, she's, she does a cover of this [00:30:10] song, uh, by Chaka Khan. Mm-hmm. And at the very end of that song, she calls out Chaka Khan.

Chaka Khan,

Michael: yeah. She's like, "Chaka Khan." Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

John: yeah, yeah. She gives her flowers for singing that song [00:30:20] first.

Michael: It's interesting 'cause in a way, this kinda gets back to your critique of the first line. It is so insulting in a way. Um, she's not... I, [00:30:30] I, I don't, I don't see maliciousness in- Mm ... um, Whitney Houston.

I do see selfishness.

John: Um- Yeah, she was l- for, she was a girl's girl, but I think in- Yeah ... you know, for The [00:30:40] Bodyguard, fun fact, you know, uh, it was Kevin Costner who, whose idea it was to do I Will Always Love You. Yeah. And she was like, "I don't know, that's Dolly [00:30:50] Parton's song." Yeah, I'm not a country person.

I'm not a country, or is it... If k- if I was Whitney Houston, and Kevin Costner came to me and said, "I want you to do this song," I'd be like, "Hey, why don't you just go do [00:31:00] Waterworld?" Uh,

Archival: yeah. "

John: And I'll do the singing." Yeah. How about that? I'm- Celine and Kevin ... Celine and Kevin. Yeah. Uh, yeah, and it was his idea to start it a cappella.

Uh-huh. Haunting. Yeah. The most [00:31:10] beautiful opening- Yeah ... of any song, ballad in the, you know, today. And I think, like, it was, she, she just listened, you know? She wasn't a diva about that.

Michael: All right. Let's [00:31:20] round it out. Um, so, uh, let's recap. Number one, you said, uh, hallowed earth.

John: Yes. I, the, the, I, she's hallowed earth for us.

I said, uh, not a [00:31:30] parody, but the standard.

Michael: Not a parody, but the standard. Number two, uh, I said she's every woman. Uh, number three, you said g- Gave

John: proof through the night. Gave proof through the- [00:31:40] That she was that girl.

Michael: Right. Uh-huh. Uh, number four I said joyous, and you, uh, added low-key hilarious. And then, uh, number five, uh, no divas.

Just duets, baby.

John: Just duets. [00:31:50]

Michael: That's great. Awesome, Wes. Okay. Yes. Let's take a break.

All right. Category three: One Love. In this [00:32:00] category, John and I will each choose one word or phrase that characterizes this person's loving relationships. Uh, first we will review the family life, uh, data. So Whitney Houston, [00:32:10] uh, one marriage to Bobby Brown in 1992. She was 28. Uh, they divorced in 2007 when she was 43.

This is her only marriage. One child, Bobbi [00:32:20] Kristina Brown, born in 1993, who sadly died a few years after Whitney passed. Um, and-

John: In a hauntingly similar way.

Michael: Yeah, in a, in a, [00:32:30] in a bathtub- Yeah ... um, with drugs. Mm-hmm. Um, and we should also mention, we kind of did earlier, that her mom was Cissy Houston- Yeah ... who, backup [00:32:40] singer for, uh, Aretha Franklin and a- and reasonable, reasonably good career as a solo artist.

And then her dad was, like, a civil rights leader of some sort or civic- Mm-hmm ... leader [00:32:50] in New York. Um-

John: Cous- her cousin was Dionne Warwick.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Man, that

John: gets- She's, she's coming from, like, a really-

Michael: She's coming from a little bit of, like, soul royalty- Mm ... in, [00:33:00] in, in some sense, right?

John: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Michael: Um, uh, and then we also mentioned Robyn earlier. Um, I didn't hear of any other relationships [00:33:10] with women, uh, other than Robyn, but who, who knows? Did you?

John: No, not at all. Right. I think there was an em- a real deep emotional connection with Robyn- Yeah ... and that went a [00:33:20] long way for her.

Archival: We were intimate on many levels, and all I can say was that [00:33:30] it was very deep, and we were very connected.

They first met when Whitney was just shy of 17, Crawford says. Soon they were inseparable. [00:33:40] When did this, this friendship, this partnership, when did it turn into something more? Our friendship [00:33:50] was, was a deep friendship. In the early part of that friendship, it was physical. [00:34:00] Who knew about the romantic aspect of your relationship with her?

I would say no one It was, it was [00:34:10] hours

Michael: Hard, hard to know where to go in this category with the one love thing, but did you come up with a phrase? Or do you want me to lead? Would you like me to lead?

John: Go for it. [00:34:20]

Michael: Okay. I don't know if this is the right way to put it, but I put bodyguarded. Hmm. Um, I think that it, it was to me sort of revealing [00:34:30] to learn that she might have been closeted in some sense.

Not because sex is so fricking important always. [00:34:40] It can be. Um, but I think that there's layers to Whitney Houston, and there's truths in her that she had a hard time, um, peeling back the onion [00:34:50] and getting to the root of. And I think, uh, there's a... You know, there's that awful Diane Sawyer interview in 2001 or so I think.

Mm-hmm. Right [00:35:00] after the Michael Jackson tribute. Tribute. So the story is Michael Jackson, uh, there, you know, there's a tribute to Michael. Whitney comes out and looks skin and bones, and looks, like, strung out, and everybody [00:35:10] is a little bit shocked at her appearance. Yeah. They decide to do a sit-down interview with Diane Sawyer afterwards.

Bad idea. Yeah. And, and that, like, there's a lot about that interview that's, [00:35:20] like, cringe,

John: right? Uh, it, it feels... Watching it now feels so invasive.

Archival: Whitney dying. Crack rehab fails. First of all, let's get one thing [00:35:30] straight. Crack is cheap. I make too much money to ever smoke crack. Let's get that straight, okay?

We don't do crack. We don't do [00:35:40] that. Crack is whack.

Michael: There's a moment though where she says, and this is I think the one very true thing about that [00:35:50] interview, where Diane Sawyer's asking her about drug of choice. Is it coke? Is it marijuana? Name the

John: devil.

Michael: Name the devil, and Whitney says me.

John: Yeah.

Archival: Is [00:36:00] it alcohol?

Is it marijuana? Is it cocaine? Is it pills? If you had to name the devil [00:36:10] for you, the biggest devil among them?

That would be me[00:36:20]

Nobody makes me do anything I don't wanna do It's my decision. So the biggest devil is me. I'm either my best friend or my worst enemy. [00:36:30]

Michael: So when I'm saying bodyguarded, I'm imagining armor, uh, around her and her- and, uh, sort of like, um, ice i- in a way that it is very hard to [00:36:40] get underneath that ice.

Archival: Mm.

Michael: When I heard and thought about that moment where she describes herself as the devil, I think that, uh, uh, or as her devil, [00:36:50] I think that she couldn't separate her true self from her disease.

And I think that this idea that addiction is a disease, I [00:37:00] think that that's an important severing. You are not your disease. Mm-hmm. You are something else. You have a disease. And I think that's part of the reason in recovery you [00:37:10] use the language of saying you have this condition that i- that, that is an important part of who you are, but it's not you.

And I heard her [00:37:20] not making that distinction- Mm ... in that moment. Um, so I don't know if this is the right phrase to use, but- That's interesting.

John: I, I kinda took it a different way [00:37:30] when she was saying this to Diane Sawyer. How would you interpret it? I just, I, I thought that was actually a pretty fascinating moment because sh- uh, she could own it.

Yeah. Like, you know, when you think about, um, your [00:37:40] disease- Yeah ... and your, your addiction, um, and, uh, and knowing that, that it's not the outside world, it's not them, it's me- [00:37:50] Yeah ... that, that that's the problem here. Yeah. That, that, that I, I'm the one who can, who can save me, you know, with the po- with the help of, of whatever it is.

Or whatever, yeah. A higher power. Yeah. [00:38:00] My support system. But that, that I, I need to take ownership of this. It's not the, it's not the drugs. The drugs- That's

interesting ...

John: are a symptom.

Michael: I- Yeah, I agree [00:38:10] with that, Jon. I, uh- Both

John: things

Michael: are true here.

John: Both things are true. Yeah, both things are very true. But I-

Michael: I thi- I think you're right that there was some ownership that I am up against myself

John: in here.

Right,

Michael: right. Um, but that, but that-

John: And I thought it [00:38:20] was refreshing to hear- I

Michael: did too, actually ... to hear

John: somebody own something for o- it's been a while.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah, no, I, I, I, I actually really agree. We don't hear it very much anymore. I think it's one of the more fascinating [00:38:30] moments we have of her.

John: It's great.

Michael: I think it's really revelatory. Yeah. But I do think that, like, both interpretations are available here.

John: Agreed.

Michael: That- Agreed ... that it is both, um, an admission and [00:38:40] a, and a clear statement of what she is up against. It is also slightly off in my read of it. Mm-hmm. That you are not distinguishing who you think you [00:38:50] are from the disease here, and that, and that separating those things out is gonna be really fundamental if you're ever gonna heal, which she, she never does.[00:39:00]

John: Right, and I wish, you know, if we had somebody in the room at that moment to say, "You know, Whitney, you are good enough right now."

Michael: Yeah.

John: Before, without, you know, before you get [00:39:10] sober. You don't think

Michael: Diane Sawyer was the person for that moment?

John: Diane Saw-

Michael: Gosh, so harsh. It is,

John: it's- She was so mean there. She was really mean.

It was... Which she brings up her dad. [00:39:20] Yeah. And she's like, "Oh, the dad who walked you down the aisle." It was like, God, can it go smoother? A little suiter

Michael: for 100 million dollars, yeah Yeah, who was at the

John: time suing her. She's

Michael: like- I mean, this is part of what I think Whitney's up against her whole life, is that she's born [00:39:30] into royalty, entertainment royalty- Mm-hmm

on some level, and her mom actually has a pretty good idea of how she can achieve success- Yeah ... [00:39:40] and guides that. And, and then she ends up, you know, with this producer, Clive Davis. Clive Davis. Right? Who really does play the cards well in terms [00:39:50] of the product of Whitney Houston and how to- Casting a

John: wide net

Michael: and, you know, Whitney gets to a point where the fame's there, the accolades are there, [00:40:00] the success is there, and that's not internally validating. Right. And that's when the drug story really takes hold. In that sense, it is cautionary.

John: Yeah. All

Michael: right, what did you have for One Love? [00:40:10]

John: Um, I had Didn't We Almost Have It All.

Of course. Hey, so- Of course ... you know, I, I, I don't [00:40:20] just see love, I see this idea of love as the thing that's supposed to fix everything.

Michael: Yeah.

John: Right? So, like, I think she had that idea in her head, and a lot of us do, this sort of [00:40:30] Disney idea that, like, "Once I get to the marriage and the kid, I'm gonna get it.

I'm gonna get it together." Yeah. "I mean, this will all settle in, and I'm gonna ride off into the sunset." That is such a, [00:40:40] an experience I had where in, you know, think, the, the, the mind of, of someone in recovery is like, "If I can just get this one thing outside of myself- Yeah ... then I'll be [00:40:50] okay." Yeah. And then you get it, and the shine wears off immediately.

And it is the most insidious thing in the world. But, you know, but it, uh, but I think that's what we're all taught in [00:41:00] a way. Right. That you find the person, you build the family, blah, blah, blah. And Whitney had that, but she had the husband and the daughter, but the, uh, but she, it didn't- But it wasn't [00:41:10] ultimately not- It was, it wasn't gonna save her

Michael: right.

John: Yeah. And in, and in, and in fact it, it- It was not

Michael: ultimately the love that she needed.

John: Yeah.

Archival: I was so weak to him. I was so weak to the, [00:41:20] the love. I was so weak to, like, "Is this love? What is this? Is it... What am I into?" Were you weak to him, or you, were you weak to the drugs? 'Cause the world's perception is, is that you were weak to the [00:41:30] drugs.

He was my drug. I get it. Mm-hmm. He was my drug I didn't do anything without him. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I didn't, I wasn't [00:41:40] getting high by myself. Yeah. It was me and him- Mm-hmm ... together. Mm-hmm. And then he, you know, it was that, we were our part- we were partners. Mm-hmm. And that's what my high was, him. [00:41:50] He and I being together, and whatever we did, we did it together.

No matter what, we did it together. 'Cause you were his wife. Yes. Yeah. He was my husband. I'm gonna make this happen, [00:42:00] and we're gonna make this work, you know? And- Mm-hmm ... that's the way it was.

John: You know, and God, to sound corny, but there is, like, this whole idea of, you know, you really need to love yourself. I think she had so much [00:42:10] shame, um, in, from different perspectives.

From, from the industry, from, um, you know, kind of ruining her voice, uh, that was [00:42:20] God-given. She had, you know, she had sort of smoked, she smoked her whole life.

Michael: Yeah.

John: Um, and, you know, she just- Oh, I kinda love that

Michael: about her,

John: actually ... uh, I love that. Oh, my God. Yeah. We'll talk about it- Yeah ... 'cause I'm [00:42:30] definitely bringing that up later.

Um, but, uh, but yeah, I think it's just, that, that, that hits so hard to me, um, that we don't... You know, you, you have the thing that's supposed to make [00:42:40] you, you think, you know, um, is gonna make you okay. I

Michael: mean, that-

John: And it doesn't do it ...

Michael: part of how I see her struggle is that [00:42:50] she is given this talent that nobody else has.

Yeah. Sort of like what I was getting at earlier, that she couldn't separate the disease from herself. She also [00:43:00] probably couldn't quite separate the talent from herself. There's, like- Mm ... expectations, obviously, that come with it. What is a God-given talent? There's no way of understanding that for... There's no other way of [00:43:10] understanding that, I don't think.

And especially if you're raised in the faith the way she was. Yeah. I, and her mother was saying, you know, "God gave you this gift." Um, and I think she's in her head about, like, "Am I [00:43:20] using it right? Am I playing it well? Am I doing what I'm supposed to do?" And she is told that by doing this, she is shown by, by doing this, [00:43:30] that you will get fame, you will get money, you will get a man, you will get, you know, whatever.

The, those external things. And, um- [00:43:40] I, I would imagine that not, that if you get to a place where that you still have internal needs that you don't understand, that would be unbelievably [00:43:50] confusing.

John: And yeah, and, and so disappointing. I mean, and, and it almost, I mean, all of those things actually pretty much metastasized her disease.

Yeah. Right? Exactly. Like it got worse. [00:44:00]

Michael: Exactly.

John: I mean, I feel like this sounds really trite, but I can't stop thinking about Icarus. You know? Yeah. And that whole idea of like, so I think the, the, the tale as old as time is that, you know, he flew too close to the [00:44:10] sun. His father gave him wings, flew too close to the sun, and a lot of it kind of reads as hubris.

Yeah. But to me it's more like up there so high in the sky, there were no guardrails.

Archival: [00:44:20] Yeah.

John: There was no safety. There was nobody there to, because he was so high, there was nobody there to help him, like learn how to navigate things, and that sort of feels like [00:44:30] very related to Whitney's story. Like she was so high in, in the stratosphere in terms of fame that she, there, nobody could really help her.

Michael: I think that there's an interesting relationship on the topic of [00:44:40] love and self-love between experiencing freedom- Mm ... and experiencing love here. Because I think that money's supposed to give you freedom. Fame is supposed to give you freedom. [00:44:50] Mm-hmm. Um, uh, talent, you know, e- exuberance, you know, a, a voice is supposed to give you freedom, and, and she's ultimately like, [00:45:00] "Mm, drugs are giving me the closest- Yeah

thing I can find- That's it ... to that."

John: Yeah.

Michael: Um, okay. Let's move on.

John: Okay.

Michael: Category four, net worth. In this category [00:45:10] we guess the net worth, uh, based on the website Net Worth, celebritynetworth.com. Um, we write down our numbers ahead of time, uh, before we reveal. [00:45:20] Finally, we will place this person on the Famous and Gravy net worth leaderboard.

So, um, this was hard because- It's very hard ... I, i- it was [00:45:30] clear she did very, very well for a long time, but then the way they tell the story is that she's kind of out of money towards the end and has to go on tour to pay [00:45:40] for rehab.

John: I think I'm way too high. Okay. I think I'm, I think I'm way too high, but we'll see.

Michael: All right. John Watts said 20 mil.

John: I'm being [00:45:50] hopeful.

Michael: Yeah. No, it's fair.

John: Michael said 15 mil.

Michael: Yeah. Okay. So there we go. Okay. The actual number for Whitney Houston net worth [00:46:00] is 20 million.

John: No way.

Michael: Yeah. Oh my

John: gosh.

Michael: I- Well done, John. Ah. I think you need, I think, I think you should have a Superman[00:46:10]

John: moment. Dun, dun, dun, dun. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. She's the sleepless tune. Amazing. Okay. Yes. I feel like I'm getting good at this. I've nailed it the last three times. Have you? Yes, I've done- Okay.

Michael: You're

John: dialing in ... I'm getting really good at this. [00:46:20] I didn't cheat, but yeah, that's what I was thinking because of all of the-

Michael: I mean, it, it could have been a lot more.

I'm glad, I, I hope this number is true[00:46:30]

Hey everybody, it's Michael. I'm gonna interject for just a quick second. After the recording, I got really curious about the net [00:46:40] worth number. I looked again, and Celebrity Net Worth actually has Whitney Houston at negative 20 million at the time of her death. So not 20 million, but negative [00:46:50] 20 million. Um, however, the estate has actually really grown in the years since with sales and with selling of her property to, like, over 100 million.

[00:47:00] Um, for simplicity's sake, we are just gonna take the absolute value of what Celebrity Net Worth has to say. So we're going with 20 million. It's a good [00:47:10] enough number. Let's get back to the recording Let me just

John: put it that way. I hope so too. I think there were a lot of assets- I

Michael: will also s- ...

John: at the end there

Michael: Yeah,

John: there must

Michael: have been

that,

John: you know, maybe were not actual [00:47:20] cash.

Michael: Okay. Um, but the 20 million, uh, net worth, uh, leaderboard, like the dinner table-

John: Yeah ...

Michael: is really good. Okay. 'Cause it's like the [00:47:30] best number these days. So also at the, uh, $20 million net worth, uh, dinner table, so this is what we imagine in this category, is that, [00:47:40] uh, you get to have dinner with all of those who landed at the same number.

Yeah. And that is your dinner table. The other ones who are here include Toni Morrison, [00:47:50] Richard Simmons, Stephen Hawking, Betty Ford, James Garner, Curly Neal, Maurice Sendak, Garry Shandling- Yeah ... Tom Wolfe, Gene Wilder, [00:48:00] Eddie Murphy, Sidney Poitier, Rodney Dangerfield, and Leslie Nielsen.

John: Oh, fun. I

Michael: know. What a fun table.

Isn't that ... What a fun table. Whitney gets to have- Whitney will

John: love [00:48:10] that table ... she ...

Michael: Oh my God, right? She would have- She's gonna

John: have- I think she'd actually probably be good- She's gonna cut up with those comedians.

Michael: I think she's gonna have a good time. Oh, I love it. Um, and

John: I think- That's right, Richard Simmons.

[00:48:20] And she can be like, "Richard, you should have done some drugs because, uh, we had the same amount of money."

Michael: Yeah.

John: We missed out. He was so ... I don't think he drinks.

Michael: All right. Well, I wanna believe it. [00:48:30] Whitney Houston, $20 million at the net worth dinner table. Yeah. That's Whitney. Good for her. Good job. Let's move on, category five.

Uh, we've changed this so that it's now Malkovich, [00:48:40] Malkovich, or Tiny Trophy. Um, so you can choose a small award that you wanna give to Whitney Houston, uh, or you can pick a moment in her life that you wanna [00:48:50] hone in on. So, uh, I'm gonna let you go first. What do you have for this category?

John: Well, I gave her

Uh, well, if I were gonna give her an award, it would be Best Supporting Actress. [00:49:00]

Michael: Oh.

John: For the Fairy Godmother in Cinderella. Oh,

Michael: yes.

John: Okay. 1997. Yeah. Um, the ... Because I love about this is that she could've, I think she could've [00:49:10] centered herself. Um, she was 35 at the time, and she could have still been Cinderella, but it would've been a little like, I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're kind of batting outside of [00:49:20] that age range. She decided ... This was through her own production company that produced this. So she had, uh, Brown House Productions. Mm-hmm. I mean, also, uh, it has one of the all-time [00:49:30] bangers of Impossible. Yeah. Things are happening every day. And it's so good.

Yeah. I mean, I will play that on a loop if I'm having a bad day. Sure. Um, [00:49:40] she kind of played a lot of serious roles- Yeah ... in other movies, right? So, um, for this one, she gets to be kind of light and warm and playful, which she was in real life. And it's, um, and I [00:49:50] think you also, there's a, there's footage of, of- Of she and Brandy recording it Mm-hmm And she's kind of motherly to Brandy, and kind of like showing her, you know, the ropes, 'cause they're singing together, [00:50:00] and she's kinda like, "Come on girl, keep up."

Like Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, can you imagine singing with Whitney Houston if you're a brand new singer? Like you know, I mean, so I just, the, [00:50:10] I just think it's, uh, the, it's absolute fire. I love her in this, and I just love that.

Michael: All right, I went the Malkovich route. So this is named after the movie Being John Malkovich, where you [00:50:20] can, uh, zoom in and have a front row, uh, seat to somebody's experiences.

I went with, I think it'd be an interesting thing to be behind the eyes of Whitney [00:50:30] Houston at the 1989 Soul Train Awards, where she was booed.

Archival: Whitney [00:50:40] Houston, I Wanna Dance With Somebody.

Michael: I didn't know this part of her story, that there were, um, [00:50:50] that there was stigma around being a quote unquote crossover star. Mm. And that there, at that moment, was a rejection from, or perceived rejection from, [00:51:00] you know, Black audiences. Yeah. Um, it's also at that awards ceremony that she first meets Bobby Brown.

Um, and- [00:51:10] I wanna know what it's like to begin to feel that backlash for why are they hating on me, and [00:51:20] also have a, "Oh, who's that guy?" kind of moment. Who is this, like, bad boy who, you know, [00:51:30] represents a certain kind of rebelliousness that she... I think the attraction there was real. I think that the two- Oh, yes

of them were, like, there was some real sparks. Now, I think the whole [00:51:40] story about him being a corrupting force, I don't think that's true exactly, although I don't think he was necessarily a helpful participant in her [00:51:50] wellbeing.

John: To put it lightly. To

Michael: put it lightly.

John: No, she would, she didn't, he didn't get her hooked on drugs- But the-

which is the big thing ...

Michael: coincidence of that- Yeah ... feels [00:52:00] kinda like I wanna know, I wanna know w- what she's going through- Yeah ... in that moment. 'Cause, like, this is right before Bodyguard, but she had that [00:52:10] string of incredible hits and albums, um-

John: More than The Beatles.

Michael: More than The Beatles. More

John: number ones than The Beatles.

Michael: Yeah.

John: Yeah.

Michael: Like, I mean, it, like, it really is hard to overstate just [00:52:20] how successful she was. So yeah, I wanna know what that moment's like.

John: Yeah.

Michael: I, I, I wanna understand the inner conflict in her. Mm-hmm. You know? And, and I, I see it, uh, [00:52:30] coming to a kind of crossroads- Yeah ... in that moment.

John: She and Bobby Brown, if you watch them sort of hang out in this movie, they're the same person.

They're both equally [00:52:40] goofy theater kid. Yeah. Like, just, I mean, goofy kids. Like, then they did, I think really did have an attraction, but everybody was like, "No, she's doing this to boost her image, you know, to make her [00:52:50] more R&B." Right. And then she came out with, uh, I'm Your Baby Tonight, you know, to be more...

So it was, like, the, it was all sort of too perfect timing-

Michael: Yeah ...

John: in, in a lot of the, the, [00:53:00] the public's eyes. And I think that, yeah, like, maybe there isn't such a... You know, we, we try to make up all of these narratives behind things, and it's like sometimes things just are the way they are. [00:53:10] Yeah. Like- You're right.

Exactly ... it, it's not like she was plotting. Right. Um, so yeah, I think that's a, a, a... Yeah, that night must've been intense. I definitely wouldn't have been looking [00:53:20] for, um, for a man after I felt, after I got booed. Like, I would've been like, "Ugh, I hate everyone."

Michael: Oh, I would've been... I mean, I don't think I would've been looking for a man,

John: but I would've been looking for Bobby Brown.

Although, you been looking for Bobby... And Bobby Brown at that, [00:53:30] at that time was pretty fine.

Michael: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I- He had that Gumby

John: haircut ...

Michael: I, and the n- my Prerogative, I remember. Baby. I remember that moment. I do think, though, I would've [00:53:40] been. I, I, uh, if I'm feeling a lot of confusion and potentially, um, self-judgment- Mm

um, that [00:53:50] I think I, I would've been-

John: Looking for some- ...

Michael: vulnerable in a way ...

John: some solace in a- I

Michael: think so ... in a...

John: I think that's, that, that goes along with what we were talking about [00:54:00] earlier, was that she was always kind of looking outward for something that would fix-

Michael: Yeah ... what's going on. That kind of solace at work.

Yeah. All right. Let's take another break.[00:54:10]

Okay, category six, words to live by. In this category, we choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's [00:54:20] mouth or was said about them. Uh, what do you have for this, John?

John: I love the song My Love Is Your Love from the album of the same [00:54:30] name. And, um, the- What does

Michael: that mean, my love is your love?

John: My love is your love. It's a song about, well, I think mostly, um, to her daughter- Yeah ... at the time. Um, and at the time it [00:54:40] was sort of the, she was standing firm on her marriage to Bobby. Um, but there's other ways you can interpret it, too, um, like, about, um, your higher power or your [00:54:50] god. Um, so the opening s- lyrics are, "If tomorrow is judgment day, and I'm standing on the front line, and the Lord asks me what I did with my life, I will [00:55:00] say I spent it with you."

And there's something about that that just really- Yeah ... like hits me deep in my s- because, you know, the you could be I spent it with Lord, [00:55:10] my Lord, or it could be that I spent it with this, the people I love. Yeah. Um, and that to me is just like, I get chills just talking about

Michael: it. What do you think her love language is?

John: I think it's [00:55:20] touch.

Michael: Oh, interesting. Oh, she was- I was gonna say quality time.

John: She w- oh, that, okay, I could see that, too, 'cause I know she just loved to sit and watch TV with people. Totally. That's

Michael: kinda my-

John: She loved to do that ... player. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I got

Michael: something on that.

John: She loved to sit and [00:55:30] watch TV, but she was so touchy-feely with everyone.

Yeah,

Michael: yeah.

John: See her with her mom- Okay ... and she's just like hugging, I mean she, everybody, she's touchy-feely, so I think it could be both. Yeah. I think you get two. I don't know what the love language thing is. I

Michael: [00:55:40] guess the reason I went quality time was based on what you had to say on her, um, words to live by.

Is that I do feel like, uh, being in somebody else's [00:55:50] life is what quality time is all about. I think that's- Just showing

John: up. You know?

Michael: Yeah.

John: Honestly, I think that's what it's all about. Yeah. Like, and I know she didn't write this song. Wyclef Jean wr- wrote the song, but I think the way she [00:56:00] sings it it, and I think that it means so much, it's just like, yeah, the, our life is really our relationships.

It's who we spend our time with. That's our life. Mm-hmm. That's our... I hate the, I hate legacy, but [00:56:10] it's legacy. No, yeah. Our legacy is the people that we love and we spend our time with, and that to me is just- We

Michael: make time for.

John: Yeah. Yeah. Who we make time for, who we let into our life completely, and [00:56:20] that is, that to me is, is what I've kind of discovered in life, you know, at the tender age of 45.

Yeah. But, um, -

Michael: No, I, I- ...

John: you, I think this is an, I think this is an important [00:56:30] life, you know, lesson to- Dude, I,

Michael: I couldn't agree more. Yeah. I think I, I keep, uh, it, it, I keep being reminded how much, you know, a lot of what I need to do is just show [00:56:40] up.

John: Yeah.

Michael: You know? A- and, and that's what I hear in that.

John: Show up for other people.

Stop thinking about myself so much and- Yeah ... and show up for other people and yeah. Yeah, and their

Michael: lives. That's life. Regardless of the pain and [00:56:50] regardless of, you know, what I might be afraid of. And it

John: sounds so unsexy. Yeah. You know, compared to, uh, a li- what we're told we, we need to do, which is reach the stratosphere of fame.

Right. But [00:57:00] really, it's just who we spend our time with.

Michael: I love that. All right. So here's what I got. Uh, she said, "I almost wish I could be more exciting, that I could match what is [00:57:10] happening out there to me." Um, I... think that part of what she's up against, [00:57:20] and part of what we're all up against, is we need our lives to be interesting.

How we define what interesting is is part of the challenge. This has certainly been part of my [00:57:30] experience with sobriety, is that I, I was really worried when I got sober, "What's gonna be interesting about me? What's gonna be fun? What's gonna be edgy? What's gonna be- [00:57:40] Special ... Yeah, special, but also, like, where are the good stories gonna come from if I'm not causing trouble and being the center of drama?

Uh, [00:57:50] or, or, or proximate to drama. Um, that drama is interesting. I, I think that [00:58:00] I, I hear in this, "I almost wish I could be more exciting," i- is I do think that she is I feel like may be confused [00:58:10] on what her purpose could be. If it's not to be a generational voice, like she does that, right? If it's not like, and if she's not lifting up other singers and other, [00:58:20] um, you know, particularly women, and collaborating with Kevin Costner, like what is the greater calling here?

And i- I think, I think it's easy to conflate that with [00:58:30] excitement and telling a interesting story about who you are. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, I, I relate to this is part of the reason I think these are words to live by, because I, I do need my life to be [00:58:40] interesting. I do need my life- Mm ... to be exciting on some level.

I, I just think I also need, and this is the other piece, I need to be able to be [00:58:50] open-minded about what exciting and interesting- ... might actually be. Yeah. It doesn't necessarily need to be drama. Yeah.

John: Yeah, [00:59:00] yeah. It can be in-

Michael: Does that make sense?

John: Yeah, yeah. I think it can be in- En-

Michael: enough ...

John: I think it's so easy for us to n- not acknowledge what's exciting.

Michael: Yeah.

John: You know? And to-

Michael: I think that's, I think that's kinda where I'm going with this. [00:59:10] Yeah. I think that we get to determine what is exciting- Right ... and what makes our lives interesting, and doesn't have to be what other people think is interesting-

John: Yeah ...

Michael: and exciting.

John: Absolutely. And

Michael: [00:59:20] I, and, and that's the problem with fame and celebrity, is that y- you get all this external validation that is ultimately not fulfilling.

What are the terms you're setting for yourself?

John: Yeah.

Michael: All [00:59:30] right. Let's move on. Category seven, man in the mirror. This category asks a fairly simple question. Did this person like their reflection, yes or no? This is not a question about beauty, but rather a question of [00:59:40] self-confidence versus self-judgment. I didn't have to think too much about this.

No, this- The Diane co- Sawyer quote kinda says it all. I don't th- I, and she is a beautiful woman. [00:59:50] Mm. And, uh, uh, and this thing about the devil is very revealing, so I'm going w- pretty simple, no, she did not like her reflection.

John: No, I think she really struggled with it.

Michael: [01:00:00] Yeah.

John: Yeah.

Michael: And I think it, I think it's, to my previous point of being able to separate out the parts of herself, you know?

And to- Yeah ... um, separate out the disease from who she [01:00:10] actually is. That's, I don't know. That, that, that's such a, um, key moment.

John: Yeah.

Michael: And a revealing moment in her, in her story.

John: I agree. It, it was not, it was not difficult, I think. And from [01:00:20] a, a v- fairly early age-

Michael: Yeah ...

John: it was hard for her to look in the mirror and not feel some kinda shame about something.

Michael: Yeah. Okay, let's move on. Category eight, coffee, [01:00:30] cocktail, or cannabis? This is where we ask which one would we most wanna do with our dead celebrity? I'm starting ... Okay, we're, I

John: think we're both excited for [01:00:40] this

Michael: What are you gonna ... I, we're both excited for this. What are you gonna do? Uh, you, you go first.

John: You go first.

You go first. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah. I, well, I mean, I chose coffee-

Michael: Okay ...

John: with, I'm think I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do, a, where I [01:00:50] do a, a dark coffee. Okay.

Michael: And

John: her, I'm gonna go to her house in New Jersey. She had this really amazing house- Yeah, it was cool ... in New Jersey. Yeah. Um, with, you [01:01:00] know, and she had the lounge area with the big TV.

Yep. And she loved to watch TV.

Michael: Yeah.

John: And I- This is,

Michael: this is where I'm going too. But

John: yeah ... I love watching ... Coffee, but also, I think [01:01:10] she, I tr- I looked this up, I think she was a Newport gal. I would- Yeah ... I would be smoking Parliaments. Yeah. We would light those babies up. I haven't smoked in years, but I would light that [01:01:20] cigarette up with Whitney.

Michael: Yeah.

John: And we'd be sitting there watching trash TV.

Michael: Trash TV?

John: The, okay, but then can I also just be selfish? Yeah, of course. Because they, and in that home, [01:01:30] they also had a recording studio. Yeah. So, what I would like to do- ... is, and then this is my dream- This is awesome ... so I get to do whatever I want. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I am also an amazing [01:01:40] singer- Mm-hmm ... that is gonna do all the backup for her. So, she's gonna go on there, record a couple tracks, and she's gonna be like, "I'm every woman." Yeah. And I'm just gonna be like, "Roam, roam." Yeah. [01:01:50] "Whoa, whoa." And I mean, I wanna do the backup tracks for Whitney Houston just once. Just one time.

Michael: Yeah.

John: Just let me do it.

Michael: And yeah.

John: You know?

Michael: And you can [01:02:00] have that MP3, and you can put it

John: in your car. Don't you wanna dance? Say you wanna dance. Yeah. She wanted to, and then I go in dance. That's what I wanna do.

Michael: That's a nice scene.

John: Isn't that nice? That, that's a nice scene. Isn't that [01:02:10] nice? That- And I know she's not, she might be a little annoyed, but in my

'Cause she has to do it. I think she'd be honored. But I think she would like it. I think she'd like it. I think we'd have fun. I

Michael: think you'd have a

John: good

Michael: time.

John: You know? I see this. Oh, God, that would [01:02:20] just be such a dream. I mean, she's here with us right now. But she's, she's

Michael: here with us right now.

John: She's here with us.

Michael: Okay. Uh, I went a weird route here. Okay. [01:02:30] I don't know if, um, this is a good idea or not, but we're gonna g- we're... Just follow me if you can. Um, so I wanna get high- Okay ... uh, and watch a movie, and I wanna watch a [01:02:40] very specific movie. Are you familiar with the movie Bound starring Jennifer Tilly and Gina Gershon?

John: No.

Michael: Really?

John: I don't know that movie.

Michael: It's got a great plot. [01:02:50] So Jennifer Tilly is married to or is in, um, a relationship with somebody in the mob, and they... and she falls in love with this woman, and they come up with a scheme to, [01:03:00] uh, rob the mob of their money. No. Um, it's a very exciting movie, and this is like a prequel to...

not a prequel at all, but this is, this came out before The Matrix. [01:03:10] You should really watch it- I could watch this ... 'cause I think it has a certain kind of cred in the LGBTQ community- I'm

John: sure ...

Michael: which is kind of what I wanna watch, 'cause I think it's really interesting to take [01:03:20] that movie and also take The Matrix, movies about people being trapped.

Um, just to s- Yeah ... I g- I, I grabbed one blurb from The Guardian. Uh, this [01:03:30] is a 2021 article about the movie Bound. Um, "1996 neo-noir with dual femme fatale couldn't avoid being slotted alongside that decade's surge of ero- [01:03:40] erotic thrillers, uh, like the iconic Basic Instinct which, uh, for its own dubious take on bisexual love triangle, had been, uh, picketed by LBGTQ+ [01:03:50] activists.

Such films turn sex into a plastic spe- spectacle and power trip motivated as much by a critique of consumerist individualism as by their makers' mercenary sense of [01:04:00] the American public's appetite for vanilla kink." Really good sentence there. I kind of- Why couldn't that

John: person write the obituary?

Michael: I, right?

Come on. Okay, so let, I've got a little bit more here. [01:04:10] "But Bound stands out for the way it invests in its genre tropes with unabashed romantic sincerity. The erotics of the scenario are certainly foregrounded when Violet [01:04:20] puts the moves on Corky." That's the name of, uh, Gina Gershon's- Great name ... um, uh, "by inviting her over to do some light plumbing.

The Wachowskis make their image of a leaky [01:04:30] kitchen pipe into something hilariously suggestive. But beyond the frisson generated between the leads, what you really notice is that they genuinely seem to be delighted by each other. Whereas other [01:04:40] erotic thrillers had a sometimes self-reflexive misogynistic tinge, Bound's feminist implications are un-muddied.

These women want out of patriarchal [01:04:50] mob society, and the film wants to get, uh, wants them to get there." It's a great movie, John. It's very specific. I'm kinda glad you haven't seen it, because it's helpful for me to explain it to [01:05:00] you. I

John: like it.

Michael: What it would... Well, the reason I wanna get high with Whitney Houston and watch Bound is that it was a movie I [01:05:10] remember seeing and like, "Okay, I understand lesbians a little bit better than I did before," because it's captured very well.

And I feel like if you take [01:05:20] that and you take the themes of The Matrix, of living in a fabricated reality, I feel like we could have a little bit of a discussion. Whitney, do you [01:05:30] relate here? Is there si- 'cause I don't think that the central tension of her life is, uh, closeted sexuality necessarily. Yeah.

But I do feel like she's got [01:05:40] something trapped inside, bounded up inside behind this icy armor, that she's not quite able to [01:05:50] look at with an element of truth. Mm. And I want that for her. I want her to, and I want to, I, I feel like the setting to have that [01:06:00] conversation is high- Okay ... in quality time, watching a good movie, and kinda like using pop culture as a, as a [01:06:10] way to, to just open the door for- Yeah

a couple of questions. I also- It's

John: a talkback. You do it-

Michael: A, a little bit ... after

John: the movie. A

Michael: little, yeah, exactly. Yeah. A [01:06:20] little bit. I like it. I mean, after the weed is kinda wear it off, wear it off. Mm-hmm. Maybe we go get some coffee, you know, before we go to the recording studio to meet you. Um-

John: That's right.

I, I'll be back there warming up.

Michael: I, I think that another [01:06:30] piece of this that doesn't quite come up in these movies, but it's something else I've been thinking about, I feel like her religion and her faith are kinda working against her in a way. I [01:06:40] agree entirely. Do you know what I mean? Yes. It's not that... I, I respect people of faith, and I respect her faith, but it's almost like- God is, [01:06:50] uh, taken for g-granted or God, the, the God of her understanding isn't a question.

It's not a theme to be explored. It's not a sort of like, how do I understand, [01:07:00] you know, the touch of God, if you wanna use that language, within me? And I think it, it needs to be a question. Like, there's not enough inner curiosity on some level, and [01:07:10] that's what I'm trying to encourage with this whole scene.

John: Yeah. I love that. No, I, I think that's... And that's something that, to unpack a lot, because I think that, you know, it's import- I'm a, [01:07:20] obviously a man of prayer, and I think that, you know, it's important. But I think in, in spirituality-

Michael: Did you say, "Obviously a man of prayer"? You're not obviously a man of prayer.

But you are a man of prayer. Did

John: I say obviously [01:07:30] I'm a man- You did, yeah ... Listen to me. But I don't think that's how you meant the word obviously, but- Let me just take this collar off and, uh, yeah. I mean, like you can-

Michael: No, but you believe in

John: prayer ... kiss the hems of my robes. Yeah. I'm a very s- spiritual. [01:07:40] I interrupt it.

I interrupt it. And I'm a... And I, I believe in b- I believe in the power of prayer- I do too ... is what I should say.

Michael: You know, I've, I've heard, you know, it said that if you, um- [01:07:50] If you're somebody who is a chronic relapser, you, uh, have a step one problem, which is either a struggle with the God idea or a [01:08:00] is your life really unmanageable?

Mm. And so I, I, I wanna apply that idea to her. Yeah. I mean, I think, like, the fact of the unmanageability is [01:08:10] complicated by wealth and fame and notoriety. But, um, but, but there's also a part of me, that's not saying there's anything wrong with her God, but that I feel [01:08:20] like she needs a bigger God or a different idea of a God.

Right. Yeah, different- You know, something like that ... something a little- Something more expansive and more exploratory.

John: Exactly. Yeah, not, not that she [01:08:30] needed to reject her faith- Right ... in any way, but to, yeah, to explore. But expand it. Expand, expand it to, to, to help fit her situation.

Michael: And I'm just not sure anybody was in her life [01:08:40] encouraging that.

I, you know, but what the hell do I know?

John: We don't know. Yeah. Yeah, but I guess, you know, that's why we get to, to talk about it.

Michael: And- Yeah, yeah. No, that's the whole point ... you

John: know, I guess, you know, I think it's, and I think it's important just to think about that [01:08:50] and, you know, the, yeah, she had two- In

Michael: that way, this is meant to, this is a cautionary tale, John.

It's just a cautionary tale because I need to be reminded to do that myself. I know. And as I'm saying this out loud to you, [01:09:00] I'm, like, asking you as a friend to remind me to do that too. Yeah. You know what I mean?

John: Yeah, to expand your conception of- Yeah ... of a, of a higher power. Of where I look for the higher power.

Of God and where you look for it. Yeah, and, and, um, [01:09:10] and I think the-

Michael: That's a never-ending quest.

John: I also just, if we can say, I'm just gonna say, I can't imagine a worse experience than trying to get sober, having a couple of months of [01:09:20] sobriety, and then having to, uh, r- to go on Oprah and say, "This is my comeback tour."

Yeah. "And talk about myself and how well I am." No, I know it. "In front of millions of [01:09:30] people." I know it. "How great I'm doing now because, uh, I got, you know, a couple..." I mean, we didn't even know how much time she had. But, like, you know, the, it's like, yeah, as a celebrity, [01:09:40] how? How do you not make... The whole point of getting sober is, like, kind of, you know, taking your ego out of everything.

Right. Taking yourself out of everything and kind of looking at it with a new lens. Like, how do you do [01:09:50] that when Oprah's telling you you're the greatest thing in the world? And you can tell, and you have to, you have to tell everyone you're okay now.

Michael: I, no, Oprah's also in that interview, and I don't exactly [01:10:00] fault her for this, 'cause I understand the temptation, but I see her feeding a story to Whitney Houston that Oprah wants to be true and just isn't [01:10:10] quite.

Yeah. You know? We all want it. I think- And it's a, and it's a little, it feels like the story she's trying to advance is premature at best. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Even though Whitney looks great and [01:10:20] composed, and we see a woman who's ready to be on the other side of years of addiction and struggle. And, and sh- and, and she's not quite, obviously, well, [01:10:30] as is borne out by history.

John: The best thing you can say at that stage is like, "I'm not all right."

Michael: Yeah. "

John: No, I need to, I need more help." Yeah. "And more and more, and I need to change a lot of things

Michael: [01:10:40] still." "But

John: I'm working at it." "I'm working at it."

Michael: Okay. I think we are ready for the final category, which we're now calling the case for the upward staircase.

So in this [01:10:50] category, we, uh, send this person's soul into the solar system and the universe beyond and make the case that they have climbed the upward staircase. Let's start with the [01:11:00] counterargument. Um, I do think that there is a tragic story here, and I do- Mm-hmm ... wonder if, uh, you know, how we all were hoping for, I guess, a different [01:11:10] outcome.

I, I don't know. I think that we all die imperfect, I think, John. You know? Hmm. I don't think we ever like, [01:11:20] uh- Good. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and so I feel like those expectations we have of anybody [01:11:30] else, but particularly, particularly somebody touched with this kind of musical talent, are even more [01:11:40] out-placed than the normal.

Hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, I, I, I don't, I don't think that there is [01:11:50] necessarily a simple story that, like, sh- her soul, you know, reached the end and transcended because of the external things or the internal [01:12:00] things. But I do think that there are some really important parts about her story that can help make the case for the upward staircase.

So I guess I'd line it up [01:12:10] this way. First of all, I don't think she was actually ultimately that malicious. I'm sure there were people close to her that were hurt. Her daughter certainly sounds like were thrown, was thrown [01:12:20] to the wolves. Mm-hmm. But I don't think that she- I don't see her being vindictive. I don't see her being, um, uh, I, [01:12:30] I, I don't see her being sort of the center of pain of, you know, like putting bad things into the world

John: Intentionally harmful.

Michael: Yeah.

John: She, I think she was a, [01:12:40] um, a, a joyful spirit who brought a lot of, uh, a lot of good to people's life. Not just like us- Yeah ... you know, with her, with her voice, [01:12:50] but- But

Michael: more specifically you.

John: She brought some joy to me, baby.

Michael: I mean, you know, and I, me too. I, even though I'm, j- 1985 ...

John: John Mayer's not my music In that Buick [01:13:00] LeSabre.

Michael: Yeah.

John: She brought joy, but I think also, and she had this, she had this, um, uh, u- undying sort of, uh, uh, [01:13:10] connection to the people in her life. Um, she was very loyal.

Michael: Yeah. That's a contribution.

John: Yeah.

Michael: Let's, let's- As

John: a human ...

Michael: stick one more time on the cautionary [01:13:20] tale thing because I think part of what I wanted to do in this conversation was accept or think through some of the [01:13:30] cautionary tale qualities of her story, but kinda get into them in a different way.

I mean, I do think that there is, the, the, the caution to me is [01:13:40] still kind of a central theme of Famous and Gravy, which is that we can easily mi- mistake attention for love, you know? Hm. And I think that the way that [01:13:50] bears out in her story, like I learned something here, and I don't want her to have died for that, but I think it's an essential lesson.

And in that way, [01:14:00] you know, it's a contribution.

John: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think she- Does

Michael: that feel like a stretch?

John: No, I, I don't think so. I think that, I think she did, she ta- [01:14:10] I think she, she, uh, educated us a lot.

Michael: Let me ask this. Do you feel better? We went on a journey with this episode. I know you were-

John: I [01:14:20] do.

Michael: Are you sure?

John: I think I feel better. I think I, it was good to think, it's, yeah, 'cause h- here's the thing. Even in doing this, knowing that I love her dearly, uh, it [01:14:30] was, it's still so easy to focus on the negative-

Michael: Yeah ...

John: of this story. And I'm glad we got- But- ... a chance to talk about, um, the, the, the beauty she [01:14:40] brought in, as a, as a human being, but also as an artist, you know?

So I think like the, yeah. I feel a lot better. Okay, good. I feel, I feel cleansed.

Michael: [01:14:50] Then that's, I think, what this is all about.

Thugs for past [01:15:00] shows. John, if people enjoyed this conversation with Whitney Houston, what else should they listen to in the, from the back catalog?

John: You know what I'm gonna say, Aretha Franklin. Oh,

Michael: that's funny. Yes. [01:15:10] I- I, see I was going Donna Summer, actually. You were gonna

John: go to, okay.

Michael: But I know- I thought about her

those are a little too on the nose. It's- I was also thinking about, um, Philip Seymour Hoffman.

John: I was gonna say that, [01:15:20] too. I knew... It's very on the nose to do Aretha.

Michael: Yeah. But the God-given talent and the struggles with, uh, addiction, I think that there are some similar themes there that if you enjoyed [01:15:30] and can handle those episodes, that I, I feel like we were able to navigate into their humanity with both of those.

Mm. So I'm actually gonna go with Philip Seymour Hoffman. So, uh- Like,

John: deep down I [01:15:40] knew that was where you were going, so I took the L and I went Aretha Franklin.

Michael: Okay. Uh- Donna, I mean- ... Aretha Franklin, that is, uh, episode, let's look it up, episode 101, Soul Queen, uh, [01:15:50] Aretha Franklin, and the Philip Seymour Hoffman episode was...

Where the hell is this one? It's in there somewhere. Episode 74, The Master Class Act. [01:16:00] Uh, here is a little preview for the next episode of Famous and Gravy. George Lucas wanted him to direct Return of the Jedi.

Archival: I think Martin Scorsese's [01:16:10] alive.

Michael: Um- Scorsese's Jedi would've been a great movie. Finally, Famous and Gravy listeners, we love hearing from you.

If you wanna reach out with a comment, a question, or to participate in our opening quiz, email us [01:16:20] at hello at famousandgravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels. Famous and Gravy was created and co-hosted by Amik Kipour and me, [01:16:30] Michael Osborne.

This episode was produced by Jacob Weiss. Original music by Kevin Strang. Thank you so much to John Watts for guest hosting. See you next [01:16:40] [01:16:50] time