103 Maverick Lawman transcript (James Garner)

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Osborne: [00:00:00] Hey, famous and gravy listeners, Michael Osborne here. Before we begin today's episode, I wanna bring you in on a little behind the scenes at Famous and Gravy. We are having a go for broke moment with the show. It's now or never to give our show a lift. And if it is going to succeed, I need your help. I need voices for the opening quiz.

I need feedback on what's working and what's not. But most importantly, more than anything, I need your help spreading the word. If there is an episode from our archives that spoke to you, please share it with a friend. If you've got your phone in your hand right now, just send it to somebody who could maybe use a hopeful message, especially in these troubling times.

Above all else, our show is about connection. The whole structure and design of Famous Eng Gravy is meant to create a fun conversation with a close friend that allows us to drift into places where we find insight, meaning, and purpose. Because we all need that. And for those of you who have found that on this [00:01:00] show, I can barely begin to express my gratitude.

Thank you for your support. That's it. Let's get to it.

Warburton: This is famous and Gravy biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousenggravy.com. Now here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Osborne: This person died 2014, age 86. In high school. He played football and basketball.

And in 1950 when the Korean War broke out, he was drafted basketball. I know more people who played football during World War ii. I was gonna say Paul Newman, not Paul Newman, who he recently did on the show. He was a genuine star. But as an actor, something of a paradox. A lantern, jawed, brony athlete whose physical appeal was both enhanced and undercut by a disarming wit.

Jimmy Stewart. Arnold Schwarzenegger. No, he's alive. Arnold Schwarzenegger still with us. He came to acting late and by accident on his [00:02:00] own after the age of 14 and a bit of a drifter, he had been working an endless series of jobs. Telephone installer, oil field roughneck and Fatefully gas station attendant,

Friend: fatefully gas station attendant.

Oh, I So he must have met someone.

Osborne: I have no idea. Uh, Anthony Quinn. Not Anthony Quinn. An understated comic actor. He was especially adept at conveying life's tiny bedevils. Isn't that

Friend: a great word? It is a great word. Johnny Carson Bedevils. I

Archival: feel like I'm being bedeviled

Friend: here.

Osborne: This is a Bedeviling experience.

He was best known as the amiable gambler, Brett Maverick in the 1950s Western Maverick. He also played Jim Rockford in the Rockford files. Wait, is it James Garner? James

Archival: Garner.

Osborne: Oh, James Garner. Today's dead celebrity is James Garner.

Archival: No, I have no regrets. I mean, my goodness. Dar, here's this dumb. [00:03:00] Farm kid from Oklahoma, born, raised.

During the Depression, we didn't have anything. But no, nobody had anything. So I didn't want anybody to feel sorry for me. And, you know, come to Hollywood, get a career, become famous, make some money, you know, have a wonderful family. What would I change? Nothing. I wouldn't change a thing.

Osborne: Welcome to Famous Eng Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne. And I'm Michael Wilberton. And on this show, we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What did we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today?

James Garner died 2014, age 86.

All right, so I have dragged my friend Michael Warburton back onto Famous and Gravy. Michael is an actor in the uk. A few weeks ago, you and I were talking about [00:04:00] doing another episode, and you sent me over a list of names and we landed on James Garner. What is behind that? What was in your mind when you were like, man, let's do it, James Garner episode.

Warburton: Well, one of the things that, uh, it's a bit of a privilege, but also fascinating for me being on Twitter X, whatever you wanna call it. I post a lot of stuff primarily about movies and movie people. Mm-hmm. And I get a huge response. I mean, hundreds and thousands of replies. And so I get a real sense of what degree of love there is out there for a certain person or a certain film or a certain director act or whatever.

Consistently over the years, the degree of love for James Garner has been absolutely top shelf grade A, and it's not just from the demographic that you would think seems to be right across the age ranges he's held in such high esteem. Michael,

Osborne: I'm looking forward to getting into this episode because I have some theories as to why that's the case, and there's also some reasons why it's surprising to me that that's the case.

So let's just get right to it. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. [00:05:00] James Garner. The rye and handsome leading man who slid seamlessly between television and the movies, but was best known as the amiable gambler, Brett Maverick in the 1950s Western Maverick and the Cranky Sleuth, Jim Rockford.

In the 1970 series, the Rockford files died on Saturday at his home in Los Angeles. He was 86. There's some great adjectives in here. Rye handsome. Amiable, cranky, like it's already painting a pretty good picture out of the gate. I thought this is strong. What was your reaction?

Warburton: Yeah, absolutely the same. You know, the opening line of an obit.

They vary so much in terms of what they capture and what they express and tell the reader in terms of inviting them in. And I thought this was an absolute belter. These are great descriptors. Ry handsome. Amiable cranky people might have been a little bit more surprised by cranky, but I think once you get to know James Garner, I.

That's in the mix, but I loved it. Michael?

Osborne: Well, I mean [00:06:00] the, what's funny is that, so Ryan handsome seemed to refer to the man himself, and Amiable refers to Brett Maverick and Cranky to Jim Rockford. But I think James Garner is be the first to say those characters are very close to my heart. They're not like a big reach for who I am.

And I think his skills as an actor, I don't put him in that category of Daniel Day Lewis or Philip Seymour Hoffman, or Gary Oldman, or he's not somebody who you like becomes unrecognizable. But I, he is a good actor and maybe even a great actor. So I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that these adjectives, two of them definitely apply to the man, and the other two apply to characters that are very tightly associated with the man.

And I think rightly so. I think you bang on.

Warburton: Look, he wasn't a generational talent, and, and he'd have been the first to admit that.

Osborne: Yeah. He's almost proud of that in a way, you know?

Warburton: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. He,

Osborne: he never tried to hide that. He's no Brando. Yeah. He takes [00:07:00] it seriously, but it's kind of almost like r smile about what it means to be a Hollywood actor.

I mean, like, there's a quality of him where he, he understands the job and he does the job. He doesn't have some sort of relationship to it. Like you were saying, Brando or some other, like great actors of his generation.

Archival: I've never been that confident, you know, I don't have the background in acting, you know, some people do.

They went to all these classes, but then did you feel a little bit inferior because of that for a while? Yeah. I, I, but I remember Natalie Wood, I, I was starring in Maverick for about two years. Yeah. And she said, you know, Jim, what you need to do now is go to acting school. I said, why would I do that? Yes. I said, so far I've got the hottest show on television.

It seems to be going well. And I said, when it goes down the hill and I am going with it, I'll think about going to acting school Now. Why does she want you? Right. I'm not gonna mess up anything good. Exactly right. If if somebody wants set up it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Osborne: Right. I gotta ask you though, you're an actor, I mean, do you take offense at somebody who has this sort of like, ah, I don't need to go to acting school.

I'm, [00:08:00] I'm already there because I think you are appreciator of the art and the craft. So is it somehow like dismissive to you? No. No. I never take offense

Warburton: at it. Whenever this comes up, I always bring up that interesting area of actors. Are they born or made? I think fundamentally they're born and I think you can then to a good drama school and I was very lucky and went to one of the best.

Yeah, you go to drama school and you add things like technique. And craft and artistry to it. But I think actors are, you can either do it or you can't. And then also what you've gotta add, which is a key thing in with James Garner as well, is the discipline to be professional. Not just the discipline to get into the technique, but the dis.

And he was a total pro.

Osborne: Yeah. That's interesting. I think we'll talk. More about that, that there's a sort of difference between responsibility of the job and a sort of like infatuation with training in the art. Mm. And And those are not necessarily the same thing. Before we move off the obit, I mean, I think that the thing that gave me some pause and I wanna talk about with you all right.

So I would suspect that while there are a lot of people who know and love James Garner, there are some [00:09:00] people who do not know who he is. And if you're an older boomer, you absolutely know who Brett Maverick is. That was an important TV show in the 1950s and sixties Maverick. And I think if you're Gen X, you probably know Jim Rockford.

The Rockford Viles was a huge successful show in the 1970s. What is not in here are any movies they say slid seamlessly between television and movies, but they don't reference any specific movies. What's surprising is there's not one quintessential James Garner movie. I think if you were to make a case, it would probably be the Great Escape, but in that he's not Top Build.

It's Steve McQueen probably, or I mean he's, it's an ensemble cast. But when you look at his IMDB and say, what is the Jim Garner movie that everybody knows, it's not obvious. He's more of a supporting cast member and younger audiences might know him from The Notebook, the 2004 movie or Space Cowboys, the Clint Eastwood movie, but there's not like a Blockbuster [00:10:00] where he's top build in the movies.

So if you, Michael, were to say, well, we should point to one movie, would it be the Great Escape? It can only be that really.

Warburton: There's lots of other great movies that we'll talk about or hopefully mention, but that one sort of stands apart. It does. It's not quintessential James Garner because you are absolutely right.

There is no quintessential James Garner movie. You know, you have to be in your sort of seventies, like you say, a proper boomer to be aware of Maverick. You've gotta be in, in your fifties at least to be aware of. The Rockford files. So it's, I'm not sure I understand or know how the younger demographic has an idea who

Osborne: this is.

Yeah, that's my point. Two things on this one. When I was going through his IMDB, I was surprised that I could not find that one more recent starring role. 'cause he's is for some reason somebody I've always known about and and liked. But what is the singular association? It's not really there. And then the second point is back to the obit.

Should they have included a nod to the Great Escape, you could kind of make the case for it because it is [00:11:00] maybe the, I don't know, biggest or most durable or most remembered movie that he's in, but he is not top build. And that probably was the right call to not put that in here. So I think, so I wanted to talk out that before we gave our scores.

I'll go ahead and give my score. I'm going 10 out 10 here. I think that this one's awesome. Really cannot find a fault. I love the vocabulary. I love the references they point to. I like this slid seamlessly thing. I think that that's. Something that's an incredible achievement of his that has to be pointed to, because not everybody slides seamlessly between movies and tv, especially during this era.

So no notes. 10 out of 10 for me. Uh, what's

Warburton: your score? I'm really close. Um, I'm nine out of 10, and I'll tell you why I'm dropping them a point. And this is just a personal thing I like to highlight when I talk about an actor, whether they won an Oscar, how many Oscars they won, or whether they were Oscar nominated.

Yeah. And it's nice, nice and short. It's like winner of three Oscars, Oscar nominated. I think he was, he's worth Oscar nominated [00:12:00] James Garner or Oscar nominated and three times Emmy winner, James Garner.

Osborne: He was nominated like three times or something. He was up for awards without ever winning. Correct. I think he won three Emmys.

I'll tell you. Oh, I'm sorry. He was up for Oscars without ever winning. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That

Warburton: was for Murphy's Romance. Yeah.

Osborne: Yeah, yeah. Very fair note. I'm still going with my 10 outta 10 because it would've made the sentence a little long, but I, we both sign off on this one. Oh, fantastic Opening.

Yeah. All right. Nine out 10. 10 out 10. Okay. Category two, five things I love about you here, Michael and I will develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived. Uh, before we get into it, there's just one thing I want to say here because I think this is gonna come up and it's a idea I want to introduce.

There is something about James Garner and his persona that really reminds me of my dad, of my father, and I have great parents, man. I'm very lucky that way and my. Dad, he's from North Texas. James Garner's from Oklahoma. There's a kind of like similarity with him. My dad, my dad talks like [00:13:00] Hank Hill. He's got that voice and there there is a sort of slow river cadence to the way James Garner speaks that as I was going through the research I was like, I, you know, maybe one of the reasons this guy sticks out for me personally is that he's got some similarities with my dad.

So I kinda wanna explore that a little in this episode. So anyway, why don't you kick us off. What's thing number one you have for, uh, five things? 11. Well,

Warburton: firstly, that's really interesting about your father. Yeah, it's interesting the way we could connect with, with people that her famous we've, we've never met.

And two, obviously bearing in mind famous and gravy, her past on. I don't have that type of familial background. I have to say. Mine's very different. You didn't grow

Osborne: up in with a dad from North Texas? Oh, I did. Or, or, or a dad. Or a dad who you want to talk about on a dead celebrity podcast. Exactly. I, I really don't.

I really don't. Yeah. But that's

Warburton: why I think I'm gonna kick off going down the angle of his background and his upbringing.

Osborne: That's thing number one. Yeah. Upbringing. Yeah. I think

Warburton: that's important because to contextualize it before I start talking about it, James Garner known for being r and amiable and all the stuff that we're gonna [00:14:00] talk about actually got to a stage in his life where he got to that classic fork in the road where he could have gone bad boy, he could have been an absolute disaster dying young or chose to go the way that he did, which is kind of incredible

Osborne: because a man of integrity and respect and

Warburton: so forth.

Yeah, absolutely. Which kind of is interesting, to put it mildly, when you, bear in mind, born in Oklahoma, hemorrage, his mother dies age five. His father ships him and his two brothers off to family relatives to be fostered. They come back a year later when he is six or seven to find that his father's found a new wife and a new mother for his kids.

And she's, and I feel like we should say this is all like depression era, Oklahoma. Oh God, yeah. This is Grapes of Roth stuff. This really is, yeah. I mean, you know, to paint a

Osborne: picture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He

Warburton: was born into that era. But anyway, the boys come back from being fostered with family relatives. They come back and they come back to the classic evil stepmother, Wilma.

Osborne: Yeah. I mean, abusive. Straight up violent.

Warburton: Oh yeah. I mean, she beat the crap out of the, out of all three of them for three years. She especially beat the crap out of James Garner. She would punish him by making him wear a dress in [00:15:00] public. I mean, she was really nasty. Cut to, he's been putting up with this for years and years.

His father was told by a garner stepmom that his second wife was just being a disciplinarian, but in fact, age 14, you can't take it anymore. She comes at him violently again. One day he punches her.

Archival: Who was this woman, uh, Wilma

Warburton: in your life?

Archival: Oh. Well, that was my first stepmother and she was nasty. Really?

Yeah. She was a tough lady. She beat me about every day for seven years. Are you kidding? Did you tell your dad? Uh, he knew it, but she'd say, oh, he did this. He did that. And the thing that really broke up the marriage, she was gonna whip me once. And then when I was 14 and I decided, no, she's not. I popped her a good one.

She did. And, and let me tell you, this was a tough woman.

Warburton: He punches her, her head falls back onto a bookshelf. She's on the floor and he's trying to restrain her on the floor. His dad walks in, sees this scene in front of him, and he asks his wife. What is going on and, and she says it's always him, it's always his fault.

Now he, at [00:16:00] that stage, Garner's father knew this was crap and said, right, that's it. She left the next day never to return. So, you know, this is all pretty tough stuff.

Osborne: Sort of, you could say absent parenting, but born out of poverty. I mean, the way he talks about his dad, he's like, you know, good guy, but he was just trying to make ends meet and wasn't involved.

So there's, there's not hostility, but it's the circumstances with which a violent stepparent can step into a situation. And that's what happens. Well, I mean, his dad owned and run a general store, right?

Warburton: So he didn't have staff. If he wasn't there, the store didn't open. If the store didn't open, they didn't make money.

So father was present, father doing his best, but fundamentally as a parent, absent.

Osborne: So is that where the upbringing story ends for you, is, you know, as an adolescent or is there a bit more to this?

Warburton: Well, just, just a little bit. I kind of wanna take him up to a certain point. So he goes into the National Guard.

And he also ends up going into the Merchant Navy and getting uh, a few months, uh, in World War ii. He actually was discharged pretty quickly 'cause he had violent seasickness, which is kind of funny. But he was discharged. But very [00:17:00] shortly after that, he goes into the Korean War. Now, the Korean War was another make or break situation that could have turned this guy into a crazy guy.

Osborne: Yeah. And he's quite the advocate for Korean War vets. There's a whole bunch of stuff in his memoir all about this. But all of this is like pre Hollywood stuff. This is the stuff that that shaped and made, you know, his character. Yeah,

Warburton: very much. And, and I think it's worth mentioning that, you know, while he was out in Korea, him and his regiment were on the frontline.

They were in one battle. And one skirmish. At one point during the war where 60% of his regiment were killed, he saw some dreadful stuff. He also took some serious injuries to his face, to his rear end, to his knees. He got, he got a purple heart for being wounded. Yeah, he did. He came away with two from the Korean War, but he saw some really terrible stuff out there.

But anyway, he's gone through a hell of a lot by the time he moves out to Hollywood and he starts working with his father, who's got a, a carpet laying firm. Garner can't do that 'cause his knees are absolutely screwed totally from the war and others, and football and all sorts of other things. He had like a double knee replacement really bad.[00:18:00]

So he can't do that. He's walking down the street in, in LA one day he catches a sign that says, Paul Gregory, a talent agency. And he goes, hang on. That can't be the Paul Gregory I went to high school with. Yeah. He went inside, found out that it was Paul Gregory turned around to him and said, Hey, you're a six foot plus strapping guy.

I remember you. You're a great guy. Hey, how about we try and acting for you? He puts him up for the cane mutiny. Which is going out on tour with Charles Loughton directing Henry Fonda starring in it. And next thing you know, that's at the beginning of his career. It is Ghana has no lines in it. It's got nothing to say.

But what he learned on that tour, and I won't go through it now, but he learned a hell of a lot working with the likes of Henry Fonda, for goodness sake, on his first ever job, and Charles Loughton being directed by the great Charles Lorton. That experience and that moment, as you rightly say, Michael set him on the path.

Osborne: So thing number one, the origin story and the upbringing. I think that's all essential. James Garner narrative, because I think we'll probably explore this more. As you say, one of the things that you would've predicted [00:19:00] from that upbringing is an abusive guy, a jerk. You know, like he should have had a major chip on his shoulder, but he, he should have

Warburton: self-destructed like so many others.

Osborne: Exactly. Exactly. And it's sort of like once you know all that about him and then you see that that doesn't happen, that's a surprising outcome. It sort of is worth exploring that. Like where does his character come from? Because he, he has an unbelievable amount of, not just charisma, but like. You know, I keep using the word integrity, but I, I do think he embodies integrity.

So, and I think that that story gets at all of that. All right, well, let me go right onto my thing number two, 'cause this kind of dovetails into that. I wrote, and this is a little bit in, in reference to my dad, I guess, lawman. He is a representative of justice. So this comes up in a couple ways. One, a lot of his roles are in the justice system.

Maverick obviously is a sheriff. He, James Garner at one point even plays a Supreme Court. Justice Rockford is not a cop, but as private detective who's, you know, a symbol of justice. But the more important twist here is what was going on behind the scenes in real [00:20:00] life that James Garner on two occasions, his two most important roles in his career, Maverick and the Rockford files.

In both instances, he ended up getting into. Deep and important lawsuits with the studio system. So with Maverick, it was with Warner Brothers, but his case against them for screwing them over on salary is credited as being a major contribution with ending this sort of exploitative and oppressive studio system.

Archival: You knew that you were right. You knew that that made a lot more money than they were telling you in terms of their accounting, and you said. I don't care what I'm gonna see that I get my due. I have been that way and I'm not litigious, but I left Warner Brothers in a lawsuit when I was doing Maverick.

You know when you're right, you're right. And I think you have to stand up for it. Fortunately, when I, I sued, uh, universal, I had the money in the bank to be able to do that. I spent $2.2 million in law fees just suing them. And eight years, that's a long time. Most [00:21:00] people can't afford to do that.

Osborne: He's not the kind of guy who throws the first punch.

He's absolutely the kind of guy who's not afraid to throw the counter punch. So he stands up for what is right on more than one occasion. So I like the way he has a sense of right and wrong on and off the screen. So law man was my thing. Number two.

Warburton: Yeah, I like that. I think, you know, having spoken about what he went through from the age of six to 14, that was a hugely unjust upbringing in terms of what his stepmother did to him.

Yeah. And I think that instilled in him a sense of fairness and justice and equality for the rest of his life. You can

Osborne: almost see that in his physique too, right? In his face and in his demeanor he embodies a sense of right and wrong in, in who he is. I think that's one of the reasons the characters he plays just came very naturally to him.

That is in his bones. Another thing actually I'd like to add with regard to the

Warburton: Rockford VLEs Universal case that you bring up, where he, uh, that they were hiding earnings, weren't they? And hiding, uh, profits from the Rockford vs. And, and not declaring it to him. I kind of like the fact that he put up with, from the age of what?

[00:22:00] Six to 14, so eight years he put up with his stepmother until the point he had to land the counter punch Quite, quite literally. Yeah. And he was eight years. In and out of court with Universal and spent $2.2 million of his own money to win that case, which he did because he was completely in the right.

So this guy wasn't just, Hey, I'm gonna stand up and give a soundbite about equality or justice. This guy, in the end, he had to stand up and counter punch his mother. He stood up and counter punched Universal. He stood up and was counted. And that's before we get onto the Screen Actor's Guild stuff.

Osborne: Yeah.

Well, and one more thing on this, one of the most famous episodes of the Rockford Files centers on this like corrupt, grand jury story that is credited with reform of the grand jury in California. So like this all like comes together. So anyway, law man. All right. What do you got for number three?

Warburton: So for number three, being an actor, being an artist, being a creative, it's about being that, but it's about being that and being real.

Absolutely. Keeping that connected to everyday real life. And not going off into some sort of [00:23:00] poncy, escapist, anal gazing ether. And one of the things I really like about James Garner is that he was never looking to be a star. He was never looking to be a greatest actor. What James Garner was always looking for was a career, something whereby he could provide for himself.

I think he always knew he was gonna have a family that was never an issue, but therefore something that also provided for a family. Mm-hmm. And he saw acting, he saw the art of acting, the industry of acting, the craft of acting as a career. And I find that really interesting. 'cause most actors, even if they think that.

We'll never admit

Osborne: it. I mean, in a way, what's funny like, and to make it a famous and gravy thing about like what can we learn from ourselves? It's sort of like almost work-life balance. He's got a healthy relationship with his profession. He's committed to it, but he's also not obsessed with it and he is not obsessed with the competitiveness of it.

Warburton: Yeah. I mean, look, there's a lot of actors, especially of his generation, you know, this is the generation where so many people lost their lives crazily young or they went completely off the [00:24:00] rails because they didn't have that work-life balance because they '

Osborne: cause your ego takes over in this industry. It does.

You know what I mean? You see that story play out all the time, and it did not happen for him. I think that's, that's the point we've been making all throughout.

Archival: You have a problem, I think, with people who are maybe not as professional as you. Why do some people have to act cocky or whatever it is that, oh, they just got egos bigger than their talent.

That's all. Is that 'cause of insecurity? Is that what it boils down to? Well, in some cases I think that's the case, you know, but I, I, I don't think you can lump 'em in. In a pile. Some people are are egotistical without the talent, but some people have the talent and terribly egotistical about it.

Warburton: Acting can be a dangerous game if you do it properly or if you take it to the end.

Acting is dangerous. You've gotta know who you are and what you are about. You have to have some kind of foundation that you can always come back to if you are to not damage yourself and self-destruct.

Osborne: But see, here's the thing. I agree with that. I also think that that applies to everybody else. That we, especially men, get really caught up in [00:25:00] identities, being tied in with their work.

This is who I am. Right? And that's where your ego will run amuck and it lead to habits and path of self-destruction that didn't happen here, which is I think what you're speaking to. So yeah, Michael, I think that's a really important one. Not just for an actor, but for all of us. Mm. Okay. Let me go to thing number four.

So I wrote down Sheep and Wolf's clothing, what I mean here. Okay. A lot of the characters he plays, you know, I went back and watched Maverick and, and the Rockford files, and somebody described it once as. Presents as a country bumpkin who doesn't know what the heck is going on, but actually underneath he's very, very smart.

So he, he could be a complete alpha as we've been talking about. He was not in it for the ego. He shows up a little bit in his politics too. He describes himself as a bleeding heart liberal and one of those card-carrying Democrats that Rush Limbaugh thinks he, he's a communist and that he's proud of that.

But more than anything else there is what I see in him. I don't know exactly the right word here, except like emotionally [00:26:00] attuned, maybe even sensitive, like interior. This is a guy who's got humanity on the inside, even though he's got a very masculine and sort of. Tough exterior, right? Like he's a big guy.

He comes across in, in with all this sort of alpha energy, but he's also smiling to himself in places. I love the word rye in the opening obit. I think that word is so perfect for this. And I gotta say, this does kind of teach me about, I wanna bring this back to my dad for a second. 'cause my dad also grew up with absent parents and he.

Presents that way too. There is a certain kind of man you'll meet in Texas and Oklahoma and other parts of the south and southwest that that have this kind of crusty exterior, but underneath there's a tremendous amount of emotional intelligence. What I see with my dad is some of that effort to be both like a dude and a man, but also emotional awareness and not be cut off to yourself.

And because I think that that's the stuff that leads to the self-destruction that [00:27:00] James Garner avoided. So my language for this was sheep in Wolf's clothing. This

Warburton: guy was my idea of balance. This guy was a man's man,

Osborne: also a woman's man. I mean, the ladies loved him.

Warburton: Oh yeah, absolutely. That was all going on as well.

He was handsome as hell, man. Absolutely. But also he, he had the eq, he had this humanity, and I think this also ties in with the fact that he never really played. The hero and very often actually played a kind of anti-hero. It seems to me that one of the great things about James Garner's life and career is that whether it's his career or whether it's his family, he got the balance right.

Osborne: This is sort of what we're talking about in a second ago. I mean, even though this is a Hollywood career, this is one of those where I feel like a lot of the, you know, ways he went about his life are representative of things I want and things I want to do, and they can hold sort of certain what seems like contradictions, but there's a balance, as you say.

I think that's a really good word, and I

Warburton: think that's why he ended up being an inspiration to so many people, Michael.

Osborne: Yeah, I, I think that's right. I think, I think [00:28:00] people can see that in him and it, it speaks to character. Okay, let me just finish yourself with thing number five. 'cause I think you're gonna like this one, uh, family on the set.

This shows up in a lot of different ways. So, you know, he is a kind of, if it's not on the page, it's not on the stage philosophy of an actor. He sometimes told actors on the Rockford files, we have the best screenwriters in the business. You know, really read the words. Don't get in there and try and change the script.

What I love about this is, I think because of this position we have the Sopranos because David Chase. Was a writer on the Rockford files and David Chase, the mastermind behind the Sopranos Talks, you know, very admirably about how he learned everything he needed to from the Rockford files. I think that as we talk about the legacy of James Garner, I think that you have to bring in the way that the Sopranos traces its roots, partly through David Chase, but also through like the support of great writing and complicated characters and challenges to [00:29:00] how we understand men and masculinity to some extent.

So if it's not on the page, it's not on the stage.

Archival: I was very fortunate I had the three best writers and Steve Can David Chase and Juanita Bartlett. We needed a script on Monday and this was like a Wednesday and David or Steve. Said, I'll write the first half. You write the other half, they put 'em together on Monday and they worked.

That's how good they were.

Osborne: But it goes beyond the writing. Like there, everybody who worked on projects where he was the lead, talked about him being this very generous figure who created an atmosphere on the set that said it felt like family. And I love people who create, found family appropriately in work environments.

So it's a kind of simple one in some ways, circles around some of the other things we've already been talking about, but it's another place where I, I see something that I just admire in this guy. He had a really generous

Warburton: heart, a really generous spirit, and he didn't just talk, he walked it. I mean, on his first ever acting job, [00:30:00] he helped, um, John Hodiak learn his lines.

And, and there were huge monologues, huge tracks of script and page work to do in the K Mutiny, obviously. And he, he, and so John Hoak turned up. To the first table, read completely off script, all lines learned. Henry Fonder was sat there, didn't have, wasn't off script at the table read and was like, how the hell did you do this?

And John Hodiak said, well, Jimmy Garner over here helped me with the dialogue and helped me learn the words. And Henry Fonder then got James Garner to do the same thing with him. And so this absolute sort of neophyte, you know, doing his first ever acting job was there, helping, supporting, and in his own way, mentoring on his first ever acting job.

Never acted before, not got a line to say in it. Henry Fonder and John Hodiak, the two stars of this Charles Laton directed play. He was a generous. Human being.

Osborne: Yeah. And there's a lot of actors who point to him as a both friend and mentor. Paul Newman, Clint Eastwood, Tom Sellick, ed Harris, Lou Gossett Jr.

It's not just, you know, male friendships. Julie Andrews wrote the introduction to [00:31:00] his memoir, and Doris Day had wonderful things. I mean, the guy was so popular that at one point they tried to recruit him to be governor of California. He said, I have no interest in politics. I don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

You know, don't bother me with it.

Archival: There was some talk of you running as a Democratic candidate for Governor of California back in the sixties. No, not back in the sixties. This was just a few years ago. This is Oh really? Yeah. What, four years ago? And I, I didn't want any part of that. No, no,

Osborne: no. If you have to get up and make speeches, that's

Archival: what I'm, well, yeah, I That was one thing.

Yeah. But another is, it is like jumping into a den of vipers. I mean, you get into a bunch of politicians, you're gonna get your head cut off. They're not a very admirable group.

Osborne: But that says something about, you know, who he was and how people, how revered he was. Okay. So let's round this up. So number one, you said upbringing and got origin story.

And number two I said law man. Number three, you spoke to career. I think the theme of balance really came out, uh, number four. I said sheep and wolf's clothing, and number five, family on the [00:32:00] set and creating an atmosphere of respect. Mm-hmm. What a list. Okay, let's take a break. Okay. Category three, one love.

In this category, we each choose one word or phrase that characterizes this person's loving relationships. First, we will review the family life data. James Garner was very private. We do know that there was one wife, Lois Clark. They married in 1956. They were married until his death in 2014. He was 28 when they married, so a total of 58 years.

They did have one brief separation in 1970. He talks a little bit about it in his memoir. It sounds like it's mostly driven by the demands of work, not by anything else that we can see behind the scenes. He once said, I love this quote. Marriage is like the army. Everyone complains, but you'd be surprised at the large number of people who reenlist.

Archival: You definitely are against regimentation of all sorts. You set your own standards. They might not conform to others. I mean, for instance, marriage is a regimentation. Yet you love this. Understand? Yeah. I don't look at it as a regimentation at all. That's a companionship, that's a feeling [00:33:00] between people and there are certain things that you have to, uh, compensate.

For, to live in a marriage, a man can't think of himself. He must think of the people he loves, his children and his wife. And yet if your partner feels the same way, then there's no bridge to commit. That's right.

Osborne: Children, he is got one biological daughter. We've mentioned her earlier. Greta Gigi Garner, born 1958.

He did also help raise Lois's daughter from a previous relationship. Kimberly Lee, I think it's also worth mentioning, uh, he's one quarter Cherokee, which is from Oklahoma. Makes sense. So, okay, let me go ahead and give my one love word. I'm getting a little carried away with my metaphors lately, but I was thinking about he's got these very rough roots and yet somehow came out of it.

He's a cycle breaker in, in a way like. All else in his upbringing would have predicted violence and abuse. Mm-hmm. And you don't see that. So I was looking for something that sort of spoke to that quality and something native to Oklahoma. So I went [00:34:00] with Yucca plant. The Yucca plant, I don't know if you have a visual of what this is.

It grows low to the ground in the red dirt of Western Oklahoma. It's got these long spiky leaves like a desert plant, these tough green blades at the base. But then it sprouts this beautiful tree stalk that has white flowers on it. So it's like almost glowing against the dry land. The flowers are edible.

It is also been used in rituals and in medicine by native communities. So I started thinking about the Yaka plan. I'm like, that's a pretty good symbol. Of James Garner's family life. No, I like it. And

Warburton: I think, actually think it's far more original than mine, to be honest. Um, I, I think that's absolutely lovely.

Osborne: Thank

Warburton: you.

Osborne: It's starting to like, enjoy this category, episode to episode. Like I don't think I'll ever be an author man, but it's nice to play with symbols and metaphors for how this works. And I

Warburton: mean, the Yucca plant as being aite to James Garner, I would never come up with

Osborne: that. That's great. But rooted in Oklahoma too.

There is, and I keep praising Oklahoma. I actually, you know, I'm root for the University of Texas. Our [00:35:00] arch rivals are the Oklahoma Sooners, and there is a fricking statue of James Garner on the OU Campus. And a very lovely

Warburton: one, by the way. A really well

Osborne: done one. Yes. It's a great statue. Mm. 50 years from now, I hope people are watching his movies.

I don't know. I love that that statue's gonna be there, so. So anyway, where did you go in this category? I mean, it's sort of a hard one 'cause we only know so much.

Warburton: Oh, okay. Look, mine's really basic. It's swans, basically. Swans are obviously famously monogamous.

Osborne: You know, I, I actually gotta say yes, it's a little bit easy, but I think it applies here.

There is a mating for life thing that we can see from the outside. It's beautiful from the outside. Swan's kind of glide along the river. Make it look easy. But, you know, it's gotta be hard. I don't know. I think there's something to it, man. I don't undersell yourself. Well, there is, especially

Warburton: when you are a Hollywood handsome Alister.

You're right. I mean, we have nailed

Osborne: that point, but I totally agree. Like, I mean, you would have thought, uh, he's, he's cavorting around. He was

Warburton: big in the fifties. He was, he was, he was cavorting and having friendships with Natalie Wood, but he could have got into a load of bad stuff [00:36:00] basically in the sixties and seventies, and he didn't, and his relationship and marriage with Lois stayed strong.

I think the other thing I like about the Swanson energy is that. You know, swans are incredibly graceful looking as they skim across the surface of a lake or a pond or a stream. But underneath, underneath those legs are going a bit crazy.

Osborne: Exactly right. Which is always the case. And that's a pretty good metaphor for marriage too.

It takes a lot more. Yeah, man. Well, and you know, Gigi is, when I listened to an interview she did, she's interesting and she's doing some cool work around animal rescue that kind of ramped up during Covid. The way she talks about her dad kind of verifies the story we're telling here as best we can see it.

I mean, we only ever know so much. But

Warburton: it's funny, when you come across to kids of stars like that, you're obviously, they're gonna be biased about their parents. Um, and I'm always wary of that Rich Zy pretty much from the get go. I was like, the way she was talking, the word she was using, the degree of her clear intelligence.

It was like, you know what? I think she's a chip off the old block here. She's telling it like it is. And basically her dad was a [00:37:00] great guy, not just to her, but to other people. I.

Osborne: Yeah. Okay. Let's move on. Category four, net worth. In this category, we write down our numbers ahead of time. We discuss our reasoning a little bit.

We will then look up the net worth number in real time to see who's closest. And finally we'll place James Garner on the famous eng gravy net worth leaderboard. So, alright. He's got these two things that we most know him for Maverick, which I don't think paid well at all. In fact, he lost money because of the lawsuit is what I read.

Mm-hmm. Rockford, he had a lot more creative control and e executive producer credits. So I kind of thought Rockford was a little bit of the payday that continues to be syndicated. The royalties of that, I expected to be high. And then the Polaroid ads all had me thinking it's gotta be pretty high

Archival: Polaroid's.

One step is the world's simplest camera. It's America's biggest seller. You just press the button, the sharp care color develops in minutes. America's biggest seller. So you made it to the top. Well, the camera did. I just wanna love for the ride.

Osborne: Yeah, exactly. So I don't know, is there anything else that you'd factored in when you [00:38:00] came up with your net worth?

Guess?

Warburton: No, no. I, I, I think those are the two paydays. I think the only thing I factored in was that I'd like to believe slash and fairly sure that this guy was about career and providing for his family. He was not about the amassing of wealth for the sake of amassing wealth sake. So, uh, nest egg for sure.

I think he was one of those classic absolutely. On the choir, anonymous philanthropists. I think he helped a lot of people.

Osborne: Yeah. Okay. Now, now that you're saying that, I think I probably went a little too high. So let's do the reveal. Michael War Burton wrote down 15 million. Mr. Michael Osborne, you wrote down 60 million.

Yeah, I went a little high. Okay. It's probably way off. All right. The actual net worth number for James Gardner. 20 million. All right. I went to, yeah, well done. That makes sense. 20 like, uh, I, yeah. You did pretty good, man. Such look. I think if he hadn't

Warburton: given it, given away so much, if he wasn't such an amazing [00:39:00] philanthropist, I think it would've been 60.

Osborne: Embarrassing. All right, well, let's put him on the famous eng gravy net worth leaderboard. So this puts him at the 52nd percentile, so he is right in the middle. Quite a crowded dinner table. Here we have also with 20 million Curly Neal, the Harlem Globe Trotter, Maurice Sineck of where the wild things are Fame.

Gary Sling. Tom Wolf, gene Wilder, Eddie Money. Sidney Poitier. Rodney Dangerfield. And Leslie Nielsen. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wait, what an eclectic box. Well, yeah, I really, I really love the idea that somewhere in the afterlife, the dinner tables are arranged by net worth. And this is the James Garner dinner table.

That's the one I want to be at.

Warburton: I love, I love the fact he's got a Harlem Globetrotter one side and Rodney Dangerfield the other side. I love that. I love,

Osborne: that's great. Alright, fabulous. All right, let's move on. Category five, little Lebowski Urban Achievers.

Warburton: They're the little Lebowski urban achievers.

Archival: So yeah, the achievers,

Osborne: yes.

Archival: And

Osborne: proud.

Archival: [00:40:00] We are, of all of them

Osborne: in this category, we each choose a trophy and award, a cameo, an impersonation, or some other form of a hat tip that shows a different side of this person. What do you got for this award?

Warburton: Okay, so I wanna use this category, if I may, to tell this little story. So the Rockefellers, Gerard McCrady, turns up on set, gets shown into one of the dressing rooms.

He, this is

Osborne: one of those, like a kind of that guy actor, you would recognize him if you saw him, Gerald McCraney. Uh, but yeah, yeah, yeah. You see

Warburton: his

Osborne: face, you go, oh him.

Warburton: Oh God. Yeah. I've seen him in loads of stuff. And you won't know his name right. Necessarily. Anyway, he turns up on the Rockford set. There's four or five dressing rooms.

He's in his dressing room, like a few minutes. Big tap on the door.

Archival: You mentioned Rockford files. Yes, sir. You got a good story there. One of my favorite things about that show. Yes. First one I did, I had a scene to do. Mm-hmm. And I'm in my little dressing room and there's a knock on the door and I thought, geez, can they be ready that quickly?

Mm-hmm. Um, I opened the door and there's Jim Garner who says, Hey, Hoss, I'm [00:41:00] Jim. Just wanted to welcome you to the show. Hope you have fun. I'm a day player, I'm doing a scene. And he went out of his way to welcome me. To his show,

Warburton: cut to a few months later, and Jared McCraney iss on the universal lot. He's in the commissary.

His parents have come along and they're having a day on the universal lot in the commissary. There's stars all over the place. Wonderful thing to do for your parents. Jared McCraney notices that literally shooting across from the commissary on the universal lot is the Robert files. So he says, hang on one second, mom and dad pops over and says, so sorry.

Is is James Garner around? I just wanna have a quick word. Word is sent through to a meeting that James Garner is in with the studio executive and the word comes back, no, no, no. He's far too busy. Like 30 seconds later, apparently James Garner comes out of the meeting and despite the studio executive Protestations comes out, says hello to Jared McCraney.

Jared says, Hey, my folks are across the street. Can you just come and say a quick hello? It would make their day, man. He pops over. And spends the next hour talking with crannies parents in the commissary. This was a proper guy who wasn't about [00:42:00] hierarchy or snobbery. Yeah. He understood that this meant something to his parents.

He knew it would. And so screw the meeting, screw the studio exec. These people are as important than this meeting with you, studio executive buddy, man, and I love that sort of thing. Love

Osborne: that story. All right, I'll give you mine. So I've become a little bit more public about the fact that I'm a recovery guy and a 12 step guy.

And I wanna say I am not a spokesperson. There is a Hallmark movie. James Garner was involved in a lot of Hallmark movies. There's a movie called, my name is Bill W, and this is about the origin story of Alcoholics Anonymous. Aa. I watched it. I didn't care for it. I think it's like this kind of corny.

Carbon copy of the AA origin story. Just to set it up a little bit, AA is basically founded by two guys, bill W and Dr. Bob is is how they're referred to. Bill W is very much the front man and the movie he's played by James Woods, who's fine. Again, the script is a little corny. You know, the story is that Bill w played by James Woods kind of [00:43:00] discover that if he wants to stay sober, he's got to work with other alcoholics that he has to, as they say in the rooms, carry the message.

And so there's this apocryphal story where Bill W is on this business trip in Akron, Ohio. He's outside a bar feeling tempted. He's calling around churches and hospitals saying, is there anybody to work with? This woman puts him in touch with this man, Dr. Bob. And the whole philosophy of this is that doctors and priests and cops and judges and parents and wives and so forth cannot get through.

But one alcoholic working with another can in this movie, James Garner plays Dr. Bob. It's just one of those places where the role is more important than the movie. He is so perfectly cast and you know, when you get into the 12 step literature, bill W's story is, is kind of all over the place and he's the primary author.

But Dr. Bob is to me, the more fascinating character. He is grounded, he is humble, he [00:44:00] is constantly calling out Bill W's ego and saying, we need to make this about others. Like he's so perfect as the kind of guiding spirit of the program.

Archival: Ah, you know, our plane has finally taken off committee. There's no telling how far we'll carry it.

I think it's best that we keep both feet firmly planted on the ground. Come on, flap your wings a bit. You deserve it. Ah, Billy. You and I know from hard experience, the alcoholic has no tolerance for the limelight. That's why we keep harping on anonymity, not just to protect the drunk from the stigma the public puts on it, but mainly to keep our darn fool egos under control and ourselves out of Trump.

Osborne: And I am one grateful to the program from my own journey, but I'm also fascinated with the kind of design and social architecture of the 12 Steps. So I don't know, made references a few times, 50 years from now if people are gonna be watching James Garner movies. But I do think that this movie might get watched.

It's sort of interesting to see it brought to life and [00:45:00] it is refreshing and wonderful to see James Garner in this role.

Warburton: Wow, that's uh, that's fantastic,

Osborne: man. That's fantastic. Okay, let's take another break. Okay. Category six words to live by. In this category, we each choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said about them.

You want me to lead or do you? You wanna kick us off? No, you go ahead. Okay. This one's simple, but I think it's got some real depth and weight learning is a gift. Even if pain is the teacher. There's a joke I make sometimes here. Pain is the touchstone of spiritual progress, and uh, I've asked the question, does it have to be my pain or can I borrow somebody else's because I'm scared of pain?

We're all scared of pain, of course, we're scared of pain, whether it's physical or emotional or otherwise. I like that he ties it in with learning that learning is a gift, and honestly, this is something that's speaking to my life right now. I wouldn't overstate the strife that's going on on my end. We're all navigating things one day at a time, but it is very helpful for me to remind [00:46:00] myself, maybe I'm going through something painful because this is the journey of learning.

And I guess I would really underline that word learning that if there's one sort of core principle that I think anchors my life and brings me back to the best version of myself, it is curiosity and learning is the journey of curiosity. And so to hear somebody say learning is a gift, even if pain is the teacher, like that actually gets at a lot.

And it's something I need to be told, and it's the kind of words to live by that I want to share with people who are going through their own versions of pain and that these are instructions to myself. At the same time,

Warburton: I think this is part of the reason why James Garner is such an inspirational figure for so many people, but very much including myself because not just in spite and despite the pain he went through in his upbringing and in his early life, but I think very much because of that.

He became an exceptional human being. And, and I've gotta say, just as on the creative acting side, because James Garner was an actor, you know, great art and [00:47:00] artists come from pain. They don't come from perennial happiness and everything being wonderful and having a sense of entitlement. My favorite artist come from pain.

And I can see when I watch James Garner, be it from Maverick, right the way through to the end of his career, I can see him employing on the most subtle basis, the painful parts.

Osborne: Well said. I wrestle with that, how the relationship between pain and creativity, but I, I hear you and I think it's something that has to be examined.

All right, so what did you go with here for Words to Live by? The quote I have is this.

Warburton: I was this dumb kid, born and raised during the depression, didn't have anything. No one, had anything. Came to Hollywood, got a career, became famous, made some money, had a wonderful family. What would I change? Nothing. I wouldn't change a thing.

There it is. What a great take on yourself. This

Osborne: guy had self-knowledge. Yeah. Yeah. There's a self-awareness and self-assuredness, I think that says it all. Mm-hmm. Okay. Let's go on category seven, man In the mirror. This category is fairly simple. Did [00:48:00] this person like their reflection? Yes or no? This is not about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment.

I think you and I are probably gonna land in the same place here. This was an easy yes, but it's not because he's handsome, it's because he knows himself and you know, I think we've gotten at like that. That is the fact of his life, the how he got to that. It's still like, I don't know where this came from.

I don't know what was a pivotal moment that we don't know in his life that gave him the balance that, that we've been speaking to. But anyway, let me, let me not step on your answer here. Did you also say this man liked his reflection in the mirror?

Warburton: Uh, yeah, but only up to a point. Again, I think we we're talking about a guy who was incredibly balanced.

He was no narcissist. That is for damn sure. He would, for instance, go onto a TV or film set and he'd look at the rushes in the first couple of days or the first day to check out how he looked, how he was acting, what the director was doing and the DOP was doing, et cetera, et cetera. But as soon he got that nailed down and you do that very quickly with the rushes.

That's it. I don't need to look at myself anymore.

Osborne: Yeah. It's a [00:49:00] good point though that like to not wanna watch yourself on film. What does that say about this category in Man on the mirror? I, I mean, I think that the longer you're looking in the mirror, the more you are a narcissist and the more you probably don't like it, that is the people who don't look at themselves that much, that are probably the most self-assured, right?

That the mirror is irrelevant and doesn't matter. Do you have a theory of the case here? I mean, we've been singing this man's praises because there's a lot to love in his character and his integrity and, and self-assuredness and so forth. I am a little curious about where this comes from and, you know, maybe, honestly, that's a good segue into the next category.

Let's just do it category eight, coffee, cocktail, or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most wanna do with our dead celebrity. I have an answer to this, but the, the question that I was just raising a minute ago is probably the more interesting one. If we are wanting to learn from this man and his life and his legacy, do you have a theory, a, as to the pivotal moments in his [00:50:00] life that would've led to balance and integrity and so forth?

Warburton: My guess is this. I have this belief that everything that had happened to him. Up to and including to Korean War, had him arrive at a fork in the road. And I don't know whether he had an epiphany, whether it was something he was even aware of, frankly, but I think I can either go down that road or I can go down the other one and I'm going down this one.

That's my guess anyway, Michael.

Osborne: Yeah, I mean, I think, well, and, and let me ask, which substance would you want to do with James Garner to sort of guess at that? If there were a setting situation, a little bit of a drug that might unlock that question, would you pass him a joint? Would you hand him a drink?

Would you pour a cup of coffee?

Warburton: Um, if I was a regular weed taker, because he was his entire life for fundamentally medicinal purposes, and he was a great a,

Osborne: yeah. Yeah. He's total stoner. We haven't brought it up yet, but he talks about like we should a legalize pot and alcohol if we're gonna do anything here.

And has been smoking pot since Maverick, basically. [00:51:00] Absolutely. Which I love about him. Yeah. I love that

Warburton: about him too. If I was a regular user of weed, then I'd say, you know what, let's get Hi man, and let's just chat it out. Yeah, that that's If I was, so as I'm not, I have to go coffee because I wanna be lucid.

I want to, the question you've just posed, I wanna say to him, I wanna say, Hey, Mr. Garner, where was the fork in the road? How come you became this guy that I and so many other people love? When did that happen? Was there a moment? Was there a time? And I can only ask that sort of question if I'm not high.

Yeah, so I'm going

Osborne: with

Warburton: coffee

Osborne: Michaels. You know, I wanna go back to something you said a second ago about privacy, that it kind of, 'cause it raised the question in my mind. That's actually really interesting. I do feel like the people I most admire and who have integrity, character, and qualities that I aspire to in myself.

There is something that they protect in themselves. There is some part that they don't share, that they do hold sacred and keep private no matter what. And in the age of performative social media and this impulse to sort of be vulnerable and public about all our traumas and all that. It's an interesting question to me of like, [00:52:00] where do we draw those boundaries?

Even stuff that may be important, I mean, this is this, frankly, this is a big thing in 12 Steps that one reason that two alcoholics can connect with each other is shared trauma. You understand the experience, you understand the insidious nature of the cycle of addiction. And so it's weird. Right now I feel like we're in this place with culture where we don't know what is helpful and what is in service of the ego.

'cause sometimes revealing all your trauma and revealing all the crap you went through in your life is actually about trying to make yourself look important or interesting. A previous generation was like, James Garner's generation was more withholding about some of that stuff. I don't feel like we know how to draw the right boundaries and I don't know.

If we know how to do that around our creativity. With all of that said, I wanna smoke a joint with James Garner. I think I want, you know, I wanna, I do wanna get high with this guy because I don't know that the answer to the question I just posed exists inside anybody in a way that they can speak to. But it's what I enjoy [00:53:00] in dialogue and conversation in an interview.

And I'd like to develop my own theory a little bit more because I, if there's one thing I take away from his story, he wasn't trapped by his past. I used the word cycle breaker a few times. Like he did somehow develop into a man of integrity and character despite what you would have otherwise predicted.

That just can't be stated enough. How remarkable and great that is. And that's kind of the point. That's kind of what I want for everybody. I want to be able to break cycles of gener generational trauma. I want people to not be trapped by their upbringing and by the trauma of their early years. And so, yeah,

Warburton: I

Osborne: remember in my

Warburton: early twenties and I said, right, okay Michael, you're a blank canvas and you're gonna paint on onto that blank canvas, whatever version of yourself you wanna be.

Osborne: This is, this is your decision to be an actor.

Warburton: No, this is me deciding what kind of human being I want to be. And the only reason I mention it is because I think James Garner exerted a huge amount of control over, over the human being he wanted to be, and he didn't do it for the [00:54:00] wrong reasons. He did it for the right reasons.

I'd love to know how he came, what those right reasons were over a coffee. But he did it for the right reasons. He took control, exerted control and became the guy that he wanted to be. Love that.

Osborne: Yeah. All right. Well, I think we've arrived. The final category, the Vander Beek, named after James Vander Beek, who famously said In varsity Blues, I don't want your life.

In that varsity blue scene, James makes a judgment that he does not want a certain kind of life based on just a single characteristic or two. So here, Michael Warburton and I will form a rebuttal to anyone skeptical of how James Garner lived. There's not a lot of counter-argument here. I mean, we, we've been sort of heaping praise, rightly so on this guy.

The family life looks great, the career balance life looks great. I don't want the early childhood trauma, but it frankly made him a more interesting person. So I, I see a man who takes a certain kind of pride in his upbringing. I think I would also, if there, if there's one, and this is maybe a bit of a reach, one thing I [00:55:00] would put in the kind of counter-argument side of things, it is a little unfortunate to me that there's not one role.

In movies that I have, high confidence will be watched for years to come. It's a little bit of a legacy argument and it's weak. I don't think it's a strong argument, but I feel like it's worth lingering on. You've said on social Twitter x and Threads and Blue Sky and all the rest of it, that you are seeing a lot of love out there for James Garner.

I think that's, I even kind of surprising because like from what? For why it, it has way more to do with who he was than I think his roles overall. And so there's a legacy question for me, but there is a statue in Norman, Oklahoma and that means something. So I don't know. Is there anything else you'd put in the counter argument?

Category, like why else would you not want this life?

Warburton: Well, actually, do you know what? I'm gonna push back a little bit and I'm gonna push back on the film stuff because although there's no quintessential James Garner movie, he was in some great movies and I'm, I'm sorry, I'm just gonna list a couple of them now.

The Children's Hour is a great [00:56:00] movie. I've never seen it. I need to watch that one. Well then watch it. It's great. Okay, go and have a look. It's a great movie based on a puls who would imply it. The Americanization of Emily is a brilliant anti-war movie. That's why it didn't do well at the time. Grand Prix is a fantastic Frankenheimer movie.

Even if I'm not a car guy, I should watch Grand Prix. Well, maybe not. I dunno. I loved it. Okay. I'm not particularly a car guy, but it's not just about cars, it's about relationships. It's about Monaco, about lots of things. Support your local sheriff. It showed the comedy chops. James

Osborne: Gar, I, you were telling me to support my local sheriff.

That's the name of a movie. I, it's funny. You are so much better. I mean, Hollywood history is just, you know, at a level above mine. I haven't seen most of these movies, but they actually sound pretty good. I'm, look, I'm interested now.

Warburton: Well, I mean, and go and watch the one he was Oscar nominated for Murphy's Romance.

It's, yeah, he's wonderful in Murphy's Romance with Sally Field and yeah.

Osborne: Push back accepted. I hear you. Uh, I think let's shift right into not just why we would want that life, but like the big reasons we would want that life, you know? Okay. Look,

Warburton: I [00:57:00] mean, despite the many trials and tribulations of his early life.

From anyone else's mother at the age of, you know, just five for goodness sake. Born into the Great Depression, right through an sort of an abusive stepmother to two wars, to roaming around doing all kinds of odd jobs in in oil fields. You name it. Lost in terms of purpose, which is such a key thing to all our lives.

You know, he was determined to authentically remain himself and he never lost this. And I think this was Garner's foundation that helped him to stay the person he was, despite these terrible hardships and becoming also in, in helping him to become an A-List Hollywood, globally successful actor. And star, yeah.

This guy remained his authentic self, his whole life. That is inspirational to this guy. I've gotta say.

Osborne: Yeah, we use the word authentic a lot these days, but I think it applies here and he embodies it. I mean, I think I'm gonna go with lead with curiosity. One thing that I, you know, I brought up my dad a few times.

This is something I really admire in my [00:58:00] father, is that he is, he's an intellectual. You would look at him and like I said, he talks like Hank Hill and you would think he's a country bumpkin, but he, uh, it's a pretty good invitation, isn't it? That's pretty good. Yeah. But, but underneath my father is a very well educated man.

And if there's one thing I have learned from his model and from his character is like, curiosity is everything. I see that in James Garner too. Th this whole life learning is a gift. Even if pain is the teacher, that is such an important idea to hold onto and you see it. In James Garner, in both his private life and in his professional life and in his interviews and in all the testimonials about who he was.

So that's thing number two. He led with curiosity and, and I know we're kind of landing on some like cliche ideas, authenticity and curiosity, but there's no other way to say it. I don't know. Thing number three, I we, I, we might as well point to your one word love swans. I don't know enough [00:59:00] here, but this looks like somebody who found family and he built family and he seemed to have a stable family at home, by what we can tell.

And he built family on the set

Warburton: as a counterpoint. I think, by the way, to the luck of it, when he was growing up, he took something bad and said, I'm gonna flip that into something good.

Osborne: I think that is all I need, and I don't know that I need to dwell on it. So let's recap here. Authenticity, curiosity, and family slash love.

Mm-hmm. So with that, James VanDerBeek, I'm James Garner and you want my life.

Before we get to the speed round, if you enjoyed this conversation with James Garner, if it put you in a good mood, think of somebody in your life right now who could use a good mood and share this episode with them. Send it to 'em right now. You've got the phone in your hand. It's how we build listeners and grow the show.

Okay, let's get to the speed round, Mr. Warburton plugs for past shows. If you like the James Garner episode, what other [01:00:00] episode might you like?

Warburton: Uh, the one you did on Christopher Lee. Chris Lee, yeah. I mean, that was of all, of all people, right? Christopher Lee of all people. I mean, I mean, you could argue chalk and cheese in so many ways.

Actually, I, I think there are a lot of similarities that, that Christopher Lee, he may have played Dracula and been a horror icon. But he was actually a lovely, lovely man

Osborne: and a fascinating life too. It's so much more interesting than you would think. Oh, I love that. Well, thanks for calling attention to it.

All right, episode 62, Lord of Horror, Christopher Lee. I am gonna go with episode 84, vocal Bedrock, Johnny Cash. I do think that there's some common denominators between Johnny Cash and James Garner. You know, one of the themes of the conversation we just had is, is sort of like evolving visions of masculinity with a tough exterior and a sensitive interior and a high eq.

So if you enjoyed this episode with James Garner, I think you might like 84 Vocal Bedrock Johnny Cash. Here is a little [01:01:00] preview for the next episode of Famous Eng Gravy. She had a self-effacing personality, which colleagues and interviewers often commented on.

Friend: I'm gonna say Barbara Walters because of interviewers, but I guess Barbara Walters was the interviewer.

Osborne: Yeah. Not Barbara Walters. Famous and Gravy Listeners, we'd love hearing from you. If you wanna reach out with a comment question or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousenggravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels.

Famous Eng Gravy was created and co-hosted by Amit Kapur and me, Michael Osborne. Thank you so much to Michael War Burton for guest hosting. This episode was produced by Ali Arla, with original music by Kevin Strang. Thanks so much. See you next time.