104 Community Gardener transcript (Penny Marshall)

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Michael: [00:00:00] Hey, famous and gravy listeners, Michael Osborne here. Before we begin today's episode, I wanna bring you in on a little behind the scenes at Famous and Gravy. We are having a go for broke moment with the show. It's now or never to give our show a lift. And if it is going to succeed, I need your help. I need voices for the opening quiz.

I need feedback on what's working and what's not. But most importantly, more than anything, I need your help spreading the word. If there is an episode from our archives that spoke to you, please share it with a friend. If you've got your phone in your hand right now, just send it to somebody who could maybe use a hopeful message, especially in these troubling times.

Above all else, our show is about connection. The whole structure and design of Famous Eng Gravy is meant to create a fun conversation with a close friend that allows us to drift into places where we find insight, meaning, and purpose. Because we all need that. And for those of you who have found that on this [00:01:00] show, I can barely begin to express my gratitude.

Thank you for your support. That's it. Let's get to it.

Michelle: This is Famous and Gravy biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousenggravy.com. Now here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2018, age 75. She had a self effacing personality, which colleagues and interviewers often commented on Joan Rivers.

Friend: I'm gonna say Barbara Walters because of interviewers, but I guess Barbara Walters was the interviewer.

Michael: Not Barbara Walters, who we've also done on the show. She was the first woman to direct a feature film that grossed more than $100 million. She also directed Awakenings a medical drama starring Robert De Niro.

Archival: I do know who this person is, but I don't know what their name is.

Nora something.

Yeah, I think of Nora Efron.

Yeah.

Michael: Not Nora Efron. She got into directing [00:02:00] quote The Easy Way by becoming a television superstar first

Archival: Betty White. Hmm. I don't know. Debbie Reynolds.

Michael: Not Debbie Reynolds. In 1971, she married Rob Reiner, who was then a star of it.

Hit TV series, all in the family.

Archival: Ah, no. No idea.

Gimme one more because I think I may know.

Michael: Okay. She played Laverne on Laverne and Shirley.

Friend: Wait. Uh ah. Penny Marshall. Penny Marshall.

Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Penny Marshall.

Archival: We have a whole show today. Oh, look at me. That's you. That's you over there when you were a baby. There's you with Cindy, Laverne and Shirley. Yes. And there's the big banner. Surprise. You're it. The whole show today is about you. Oh my God. Your life. A full hour of you. And there are surprise guests here to surprise you.

Am I dying? You like I'm dying.[00:03:00]

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Great. I'm Michael Osborne.

Michelle: And my name is Michelle Dahlen Berg.

Michael: And on this show we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century and we take a totally different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today?

Penny Marshall died 2018, age 75. Okay. So I've invited my friend Michelle back on the show. Michelle is an audio producer and friend based here in Austin. Michelle previously joined us on the Juliet Child episode, which has become a fan favorite and I am pretty sure I'm stepping on future categories when I say this, but it's a little too important.

When you and I were brainstorming another episode, you let slip that you once dressed up as Laverne for Halloween. Um, it's true. I I love that. How old were you when you dressed up as Laverne for Halloween?

Michelle: I was in college, so I was [00:04:00] probably 21. Yeah. And in fact, I messaged one of my friends from college and I said, Molly, do you have a photo of me?

And my then boyfriend dressed up as Love and Shirley and she said she would look. So I haven't found it yet, but I feel connected to Laverne and, and Penny Marshall because of this.

Michael: I love that you dressed up as Laverne for Halloween. And that was honestly enough for us to say, you know what? Screw it.

Let's do a Penny Marshall episode. All right. Let's get right to it. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Penny Marshall, the nasal voiced CoStar of the slapstick sitcom. Laverne and Shirley. And later, the chronically self-deprecating director of HIT films like Big and a League of their Own died on Monday at her home in Los Angeles.

She was 75.

Michelle: Okay. I hate nasal voiced.

Michael: I did too. That, I mean, okay. That's the first thing that leaps out. Is it wrong? It feels like a dig. Right? It feels like an insult [00:05:00] that they're poking fun at her accent, which is very distinctive.

Michelle: It is a very distinctive accent, but I don't know that it's an nasal accent.

First of all, I was trying to, that was my

Michael: thought. Unless all sort of Bronx accents of that generation are quote unquote

Michelle: masal, I don't think they're, and also there is a. Unfortunately, sexist history of commenting on women's voices, policing women's voices. They're too baby-ish. They're too this. They're too that.

Yeah. Like in her obituary, you have to color, but you could say the Bronx accented or something. You could say the hilarious CoStar of, of the, and Shirley, why do you have to say nasal

Michael: voice? I don't know that I take issue with drawing attention to her voice in that it's very distinctive, I guess I could say the distinctive

Michelle: voice of, but this is

Michael: not a nice way of saying it.

So that leapt out to me. Yeah. And then the other thing is chronically self-deprecating. Yeah. Kinda. I don't know. I, well, okay. When I, the more I looked at this, the more I felt like this was the kind of joke. You make about somebody when you don't know them [00:06:00] very well? Yes, and you're trying to endear yourself to them.

It's kind of true that she's self-deprecating, but it's not like her defining quality. I think it is a challenging obit in that what exactly is her defining quality? She is a character, but I don't know that they drew attention to the things that really set her apart as a person.

Michelle: It's the wrong word.

It's not self-deprecating. It's this like. I don't care. Kind of attitude. Like it's whatever. It's a kind of a whatever. It's not, she maybe was kind of self de, like, she was more just like authentic and blunt. Blunt

Michael: blunt's a good word.

Michelle: I mean, she would be blunt about everything but about, and the self-deprecating part is she was honest about her own failings.

Like when she started directing, you know, she would say, I don't know what I'm doing. I need help. Yeah. You know, and, but it wasn't like I'm a bad director. Ha ha ha. You know, she wasn't doing that so much as she was just saying, Hey, this is, I'm telling it like it is. Like I have

Archival: a range.[00:07:00]

I, I don't have that big a range. This is the way I talk. This is the way I act. I'm not doing Shakespeare in the park anytime soon. And so this is how I am. You know, I'll be yourself. All right. Whatever that is.

Michael: I think one of the interesting things about this first line of the obit is it is consistent with the media narrative of Penny Marshall.

Yes. That I think that in a way she was not taken seriously on the Vernon Shirley. That show, while it was a ratings juggernaut was not a critical success and Big and a League of their own were like, yeah, they happen to be really big movies. But she didn't get a whole lot of credit for those things. And in fact, the New York Times and some of the reviewers have a history of not exactly honoring her legacy.

So this is consistent with. The New York Times in a way, and Okay. To their credit, these are the things you should point to as I've been getting ready for this episode and saying, Hey, we're doing a Penny Marshall episode. A lot of people don't know who she is. Yep. And I say she's [00:08:00] Laverne on Laverne and Shirley.

I say, she directed big and she directed a League of their own. Yep. And those three accomplishments are like, oh wow. What a, well, how do I not know that person's name? Or, right. How? How is she not a household name?

Michelle: I've had the exact same experience, Mike. Like people are like, wait, who is that again?

Michael: Yeah.

And wait. Oh, right. Oh. She's sort of not as remembered as her credits would lead you to believe. And there's reasons for that that I think we'll discuss. Mm. But at least they got the properties Right. Although, I don't know even how much credit to give there because it's kind of obvious. Yeah. That those are the three things you should point to.

All in all, I came away feeling kind of frustrated by this one.

Michelle: The only other thing I would say is. If they were going to add awakenings to it. Mm-hmm. That's the other big one that she did. Yes. Um, that people might remember. I remember

Michael: it and I did too. And shout out too, we did an episode on Oliver Sacks, and that movie is sort of an incredible confluence of talent.

Oliver Sacks, Robin Williams, Robert De Niro, and Penny Marshall. I love that movie. It was [00:09:00] Oscar nominated for Best picture. She wasn't, and and that's part of the story here.

Michelle: Oh yeah, absolutely. And she kind of, you know, in her autobiography, she's kinda like, yeah, once again, I didn't get nominated, whatever.

I don't care. Yeah. You know, and it's like she just didn't expect to 'cause it, it just constantly, she never got recognition.

Archival: But, um, I, so I had a non nominees party at my house. All those people who weren't nominated came to my house. So Morty Scorsese, you had Lost For Good Fellas, came over and said, look, first of all, you're Italian.

Forget about it. Second of all, you're a woman. Forget about it. Double. You don't got a chance in hell. And so I said, all right, it didn't matter to me. I was, everyone was at my house eating that chicken and macaroni and cheese Streisand came over after you. They all knew the food we'd serve. You know, we weren't fancy good eats at uh, good Eats.

Michael: I really like your use of the word blunt. I think that that is a word [00:10:00] that I really would've liked to have seen in this obit. 'cause I do think she is straightforward, matter of fact, blunt, plain spoken, like there's a lot of words you could have used to give her a little bit more credit here. Mm-hmm. And, and, and all they point to is like she happened to be part of successful things.

Not that she herself was exactly successful. The more I'm talking about this, the more I'm lowering my score.

Michelle: I know, me too. I literally just lowered mine.

Michael: Did you, did you? All right. What, what'd you go with for a score? So

Michelle: I, maybe this is even too generous, but I gave it a six.

Michael: That's fair. I'm going five.

Okay. I initially had six and I'm dropping it down to a five. I had seven and

Michelle: now I'm dropping to six. So, okay. Yeah.

Michael: I mean, I think Good. This is the whole point of talking it out on this category. Yeah. I mean, I, I do think that. Something was missed here and that she is a more important figure than what this first line of the obit would communicate.

And this is 2018. This was, this was known by now. Yes. Like this is something we should have been attentive to as pioneering figures in the entertainment industry. She is absolutely that. How do they whiff on that? You know. [00:11:00] Okay, let's move on. Category two, five things I love about you here, Michelle and I will develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived.

I'd like you to lead us off, if you don't mind. We discussed this ahead of time and you said you'd like to go first.

Michelle: Yes, I would like to go first. Somebody called me out for inviting

Michael: people. I say, and I really like, it's, it's meant to be a generous thing. I, I, I, I wanna hear your point of view on this, and that's sincere.

Michelle: Okay, so I'm going to talk about her nonchalant slash bluntness. So we already alluded to that. She's very nonchalant, honest, direct about everything. She has this authenticity to her. There's this quote, I have a strange combination of fearlessness and massive insecurity.

Michael: Yeah,

Michelle: and I think that's, you can kind of get that.

Michael: It's really relatable. I've been really thinking about her accent because I think it does communicate a certain kind of blue collar quality. Yes. And I also love the word nonchalance. It's actually [00:12:00] a, I sometimes think that the better version of me is like Zen Master Mike, and that doesn't really exist.

I'll never get there. But nonchalance and like zen are not totally dissimilar ideas in a way. Right.

Michelle: It's not being attached to things. It's like easy come, easy go. Like, okay, fame, oh well, bye. Like she talks about this in her autobiography, which is wonderful and people should read it. Absolutely. That is

Michael: super entertaining.

My mother was nuts, is the name of it,

Michelle: which I do not think the name is. It should have a different name. Save that for later. Yes. I was thinking about her accent too, and I thought if I had an accent like that, could I get away? It's almost like putting on a mask. Mm-hmm. You can get away with things like, ah, who cares?

What the fuck? Who, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can kind of, she can be this character and people like, ah, that's just how she is and I. Like, I kind of wish I, I had that,

Michael: I absolutely wish I had that I wish things rolled off my back and I just sort of accepted them for what they were, were, I think the quote you read is really interesting about fearlessness and [00:13:00] insecurity, because I think that exists in all of us.

Sure. But I also know that I, I wish I had that attitude throughout life and I do feel like this gets at the chronology of her story, which we should cover. So grows up in the B Bronx and blue collar family with, I mean, whether her mom was nuts or not. Crazy parents.

Michelle: Yeah, they were a little nuts. And Mom is a dance instructor.

Kind of a negative person. Kind for Penny at least. Yeah. But Beloved by other people. Right. Which is, that's hard when your parent is beloved by others and then you have a different experience. So she ends up dancing reluctantly. She's involved in that company and she's very involved in her neighborhood.

She plays with all the neighborhood kids. Her brother is Gary Marshall. Yeah. And

Michael: so I read two biographies for this and let me hop in on that because in the second biography I read, which came out in 99. They say you kind of can't understand Penny Marshall's biography without understanding Gary Marshall's biography.

Right. So he is a sort of self-made Hollywood figure and he is nine years older than [00:14:00] Penny. And Penny is the first to say I'm in Hollywood because my brother invited me in. Yeah. And he has a, his own long and storied career. The thing that he's probably best known for in initially is Happy Days. Yeah.

Penny goes away at college, at the University of New Mexico. Some of this will come up later. She gets pregnant and she is sort of doing some acting. Eventually she divorces and goes to Hollywood where her brother helps open the door, but he's pretty guarded in, in terms of how far he goes to get his sister work.

One thing that's interesting is that there is a kind of sibling meeting between Gary Marshall, Penny's older sister Ronnie. Yeah. Ronnie and Penny, where Gary Marshall essentially says, our parents are not gonna help us out. We've gotta look out for each other. Yeah. They make an agreement. Yeah. They make an agreement.

And this all relates to your point of nonchalance in a way, in that you don't see her asking a whole lot of why me kinds of questions in either direction. [00:15:00] You don't see her telling stories about victimhood. Mm-hmm. You also don't see her telling overstating, she acknowledges, but she doesn't overstate opportunity.

Right. I mean, everything that happens to her is just sort of, that's how it goes. That's life. Who knows? It's not a bad life.

Archival: I've had a very charmed and lucky life for myself, so that's all I gotta say. And do what you wanna do. Who knew? I didn't know this is where I was going to be. I was stuck in the cellar with my mother tap dancing.

Michelle: You could read this if you were an alien and didn't know anything about how Hollywood worked or anything. You could read that. Autobiography and think, oh, I could go to Hollywood and do this too.

Michael: Totally. She makes it all seem so, like it's just what happens. Yeah. Yeah. I just showed

Michelle: up and he was like, Hey, you wanna be in a movie?

And I was like, I'm not doing anything on Saturday. Sure. She's in a couple films, she's in a couple commercials and then yes, he's doing happy days and then he says, Hey, we wanna bring in a couple of girls. Mm-hmm. To be the dates of the fawns. [00:16:00] So Richie and Fawns have these dates and they're these like, you know, blue collar gals or whatever and this is

Michael: spins off into Laverne and Shirley and that's her rocket ship moment.

That's she, exactly.

Michelle: Yeah. But she's so whatever about all of it, like Yeah. Oh yeah, I got this part. Sure, that's fine. Okay. And I wonder, is that really how it felt? Or is she just one of those lucky people that things just keep happening

Michael: to? Great question. I don't know. And maybe both things can be true, but let me turn this back on you.

I mean, is nonchalance a quality you aspire to?

Michelle: Yeah, kind of. I mean, I, I think that's where I landed too. I think there's a line because if you're like whatever about everything, then what are you investing in? Yeah. But I am not this person. I care too much about everything. I think I could turn up my nonchalance more and uhhuh and there, because it's sometimes, and whether it's.

Really true that it's actually confidence is a question. And maybe, you know, she does say she has massive insecurity. Yeah. And I think there's something about that nonchalance. It's like, sure, it, [00:17:00] it makes us more relaxed, it makes us more present. It's, it's, it's

Michael: not a bad superpower. And I think it is her superpower.

And I like what you had to say about, you could dial it up a little bit. I could dial it up too. And I think that there is a fine line between confidence and cockiness. Yeah, that's actually a great segue into my number two. I wrote, you know, she successfully navigated the patriarchy. This is kinda what we're talking about.

Her relationship to success is hard to interpret, but her accomplishments are not small things. One thing that's very striking and just should be said is. She is a successful woman in Hollywood and she's not a knockout, right? It's not because of her looks. It's almost in contrast to that. Laverne and Shirley was the number one show for two years, and it is blue collar women who are poor and who are goofy slapstick, whatever.

And it's not critically acclaimed, but it is a behemoth.

Archival: Laurenne Shelley was Girls friendship and how poor girls could uh, [00:18:00] survive. It was no other show with blue collar girls on television. When Laraine Shelley appeared, the chemistry popped. It was a good concept. The what? The optimist and the pessimist, the dreamer and the realist.

We were regular girls who worked for a living and tried to survive, and I think most of America. Tries to work for a living and survive

Michael: big. The Tom Hanks movie was the fourth highest grossing movie of 1988 behind Rainman, who framed Roger Rabbit and Coming to America, and she is the first woman to cross the $100 million mark with a box office success.

Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. Right? That's amazing. And then, and then I think honestly, the crowning achievement, I mean, awakenings, I love, it's a great movie and it led to a Robert De Niro Academy Award. I do think the crowning achievement of her career, in some sense is League of their Own. Mm-hmm. I, I think that not only was it a successful box office movie, also crossed the $100 million mark, but more than that, what it.

Represents, you know, women's sports in the early nineties. Everybody thought this [00:19:00] was a bad idea for a movie. They thought it wasn't gonna do very well. She brings, people kept

Michelle: passing on it and that happens to her a lot unknowingly. Totally. She keeps getting scripts like big too. Yeah. Where she didn't know that many, many people had passed on that script.

And then once she starts making it to something cool, then people, oh, I wanna be part of that after all, you know?

Michael: Yeah. I do think part of the reason kind of reminded me a little bit of Barbie and when Ryan Gosling got nominated. It was the only nomination for a movie that was like led by women in so many ways.

Women. Yeah. About women. Exactly. You know, I think that like people kind of remember a League of their own for Tom Hanks. Yeah. And I think that some of her success was sort of like, well she happened to, to cast Tom Hanks. Like it's dismissed in a way. Yeah. And so I think it does come back to her nonchalant attitude.

She doesn't exactly like, she accepts some of the accolades, but she doesn't claim more than she should, which is unfortunate because I feel like I want her to, and I feel like we should now do that work on [00:20:00] her behalf because she is more of a pioneering figure than was acknowledged at the time.

Michelle: I think you're right that League of their Own is the probably the most enduring part of her legacy.

It makes me want to go watch that now in honor of her.

Michael: I think that, you know, we called it out earlier. You dressing up as Laverne I love, but I also think this came up in the Mary Tyler Moore episode that Laverne was. A character who I think women and girls could see themselves in. Yeah. And I think Penny grew into a boss that women and girls could see themselves in.

They could relate to her in a way. And she doesn't get those kinds of accolades, but I think they're, they're deserved and I think that there is a case to be made.

Michelle: Well, here's a question. So if she's not in it to get accolades, 'cause she doesn't seem like that's what was driving her. Yeah. What do you think she loved about making those movies and those shows?

I have an answer to that. Well, it might be related to my next thing. So my next one was, she was a social butterfly. Yes. So my thought to connects to my previous question is that [00:21:00] I think she just loved getting people that she loved, that were super talented in a room together and just having fun with them.

Michael: Totally agree. When you read her memoir at first. It, it can be mistaken for name dropping and be because there are insane names dropped. Wait, did you make a list of the names? I did, yeah. So it's like at least 80% of the Famous and Gravy back catalog. Wow. Carrie Fisher's in there. Bowie, Gary Haning, just to name a few.

Carrie Fisher's like her best friend. She's tight with Lorne Michael. She fell in with the SNL crowd in the very early days and

Michelle: she has him on like. Speed dial. Lauren Michaels, she's, she will call him up and just say, Hey, we need to get on SNL, and he is like, okay. And he gives her a date, you know, I need my star to be on SNL to promote the movie.

Oh, okay. When

Michael: Spielberg is going through a divorce in 1980, he invites Penny Marshall to be his dates to an award ceremony. I mean, she and Spielberg are super tight, and in fact, actually a point about League of Our Own, the way that movie ends with all these older women. Yes. Going [00:22:00] and revisiting Spielberg said, tell me about that idea.

And they used it for Schindler's List. Yes. And then later for a band of brothers. I mean, this is like now a sort of Spielberg trope that Totally. That was her idea. It

Michelle: was her idea and she. Fought for it because the studio said, no, no, no, we didn't wanna end on the actors. And she said, no, it's these women's stories.

And it made me that I was listening to her and she's emotional and it made me emotional listening to her talk about the way that that movie ends on the women and how that she's so proud of that. And it made me so just as a woman. Yeah, as a, as an artist. Like it just made me so emotional to talk about that.

It's an awesome movie. I mean, it's an

Michael: important movie that way. But I mean, back to your point about social butterfly, her, she is like the most networked woman in Hollywood. It's insane.

Michelle: Everyone seems to love her. She has these epic parties. I mean, she was

Michael: like partying with John Belushi, but also like the behind the scenes figures like James L.

Brooks, who was a TV uh, director who went on to do like awesome movies and The Simpsons, [00:23:00] I mean, married to Rob Reiner. We'll get more into that. Yeah. In a little bit. I mean, who she's hanging out with is like. Is it, oh my God. Who's who? I don't think I've ever read a memoir that has so many deaths with things.

It's so many people

Michelle: and she has so many favors. She can call in whenever she needs to.

Michael: Well, yeah. Which is kind of what she does when she gets into directing. Yeah.

Michelle: Right? Yeah. Right. And so you, did you have a house when you were growing up that was like the hangout house? Among your friends? Yeah. Was that your house or was

Michael: it someone else's house?

No, it was somebody else's house. I steered it away from my house. I tried to make it my house when my parents were out of town. Right. But yeah, she totally had the hangout house. She's

Michelle: the hangout. She is the hangout house. Yeah. So when she's married to Rob, they're the hangout house. All the parties happen there.

People live at her house all the time. Yeah. Oh, so-and-so's in the guest house. So-and-so's like, why are these people living bedroom? There's like a story about

Michael: like Joe Peshy waking up and, and uh, running into, who was it? There was some rockstar or something. Oh yeah. Or like somebody's gotta call the plumber.

I forget it. Yeah. Like,

Michelle: and she's like, you got the phone call yourself. I was like, what? Okay. And then there was somebody that kept. Staying at their house that kept [00:24:00] stealing her daughter's like sack lunches for school. Like what is happening? It would be so interesting to interview our daughter Tracy.

Yeah. So, yeah, it's just stuff like that. It's just, she just, wherever she goes, she can't help but make friends. She loves people, which is amazing.

Michael: I like your point about, I like the Hangout House idea. I also, I really liked your point about creating community. She makes people feel welcome and you can, you can, she does.

You can see that creating community is a great segue to my number four. I wrote playfulness. Mm-hmm. Her whole. Book is framed around this idea of, I just enjoy the experience of playfulness, of playing. And that's a, a kind of attitude she tries to bring onto a set and onto a stage. This comes up in like she's a really, really big sports fan.

Like she is going to a lot of basketball and football games and even to this Dennis Rodman documentary, which I have yet to see, but I'm excited about. And you know, when she's throwing parties, sometimes the basketball players are showing up. But here's the big thing I love about this. [00:25:00] While it is not obvious to me that she is a decidedly playful person, 'cause it's not obvious to me.

I like that she's claiming an attitude of playfulness. I think that this is something I forget to do. Play, like I love game nights. I like playing sports. I've been doing a thing with my kids where we're playing badminton in the backyard and, and kipi uppy kind of games with a beach ball stuff. Yes. We game over here.

Yep. Just playing for play's sake is a life lesson and whether or not she's like the best model of that behavior, I like that she's stating it as a virtue. 'cause I do think to make time to play is a virtue in our lives. So it's, it's more of a life lesson thing number four. But that's my thing, number four.

Michelle: I love that and I, I think it's maybe that she's creating the conditions in which people can play, like she's creating. That's a good way of putting it. Parties. I want people to play at my house, so I'm gonna have parties. The way that she directs, she's known for trying a whole bunch of different things [00:26:00] and she just, she's like, let's just play, let's try it.

And she lets her actors do that. Like, just try stuff. You know, just do stuff, see how it goes. She loved it when they would improvise. And as an improviser myself, I love that idea that she created the conditions where actors felt comfortable trying different things, trying new lines. What if we did this?

What if we did that? You know, let's, let's make it better. She was rewriting lines sometimes with that. I think it's a great,

Michael: like overall, I think it's a great intention to set. Yeah. Right. You know, I do a morning meditation thing and they talk about setting your intention. It's a great intention to set.

Today I'm gonna play. Yeah. You know, like, absolutely. Like what a, what a way to start your day.

Michelle: Yeah.

Michael: Uh, so all right. So where'd you go for thing number five here?

Michelle: So, for thing number five, I had a couple things. It's mostly that I, the way in which I saw myself in her or in her story.

Michael: Mm.

Michelle: And so this is more, it's just back to your

Michael: Halloween costume.

Michelle: So there's the Halloween costume part, but I think the reason I remembered her when I was thinking about a Halloween costume was because, you know, I grew up as [00:27:00] a working class family in the Midwest. Yeah. And that character, Laverne is a working class character in Milwaukee, right? Mm-hmm. That show whether I was, I wasn't consciously thinking this or not, but I, you know, was watching these reruns and going, oh, this person feels more real to me than some of the people on tv.

Yeah. It's the same reason I really liked Roseanne, you know, the show. Yeah.

Michael: It's interesting that when that happens, when a TV character is like, oh, there's me.

Michelle: Sure. And I don't know that I actually felt like this bottle capper in Milwaukee was anything like me, but, but just I got this idea that they were more grounded.

And even though it was silly slapstick, whatever, I, I was like, these people are talking in a more real way. They're not, you know, rich, famous people. They're, they're just people. People or

Michael: glamorous for that matter. They

Michelle: weren't glamorous, they were fun, and they were, they were playful again. And I love that.

Archival: Why do you say, I let you have one of my, you mean it. The trumpet player? No, he's the best kisser. Okay. I've been the tall guy with the, with the sideburns, but no, he's the best dancer. Well, okay. You said [00:28:00] anyone, you said anyone. Well, I meant anyone short.

Michael: I really relate to her in two funny ways. One is that, so she's the third child and she's a mistake.

I am the third child and I was a mistake. Oh no. And I, yeah. Well, and I remember. Telling a therapist years ago about that and the therapist was like, how'd you learn that? How'd you know that? And I was like, God, I don't know. I never thought about it. I just grew up knowing it. Mm-hmm. My, my parents were a lot more loving about it.

My dad used to say things like, you know, you were the best mistake we ever made and, and stuff like that. But it's part of her self narrative and I'd never quite realized that. That actually can be an important thing that can get in your mind as a child. Yeah. The other thing I really relate to her is that, so she's from the Bronx and she goes to college and of all places, university of New Mexico.

I also went to college in the mountain west and I kind of as far away from family as I could get at the time. And I think like Penny Marshall in Albuquerque, you know, with no career and no prospects is sort of like, I don't know, delightful. It makes me smile that [00:29:00] this is part of the truth of her story.

Michelle: So I had this too. I wrote down New Mexico connections, so you know a little bit about my backstory, but I moved to New Mexico from the Midwest. So we lived in South Dakota. Yeah. And Nebraska when I was 16. My mom, brother, and sister and I moved to Santa Fe, New Mexico. Mm-hmm. Where we lived for a few months, and then we moved up to Los Alamos, New Mexico.

Right. And I graduated from high school there, and then I went to college in Arizona. And then after college I came back and lived in Albuquerque for a while and then back in Los Almos for a bit. And so I love that she went to UNM because I had tons of friends who went there.

Michael: It's a funny corner of the country that can really shape a personality.

Yes. It seems like. Right. I mean, it, it, it, when I learned that fact about you, there was something about it, like, oh, I think I understand her on a new level that High Desert air gets in your bones. I guess so.

Michelle: Yeah.

Michael: Or something like that. Yeah. She

Michelle: also, when she was in New Mexico, an important thing to, to note about her is that.

She, that's when she discovered herself as an actor. You know, she was doing dance there [00:30:00] as a job 'cause she needed to work. Mm-hmm. And she, someone said, oh, would you like to play a part in the musical at the Albuquerque Civic Led Opera Association? She was like, sure, why not? I can't sing, but whatever. I have friends that worked at the Albuquerque Civic Led Opera Association, so I felt connected to her because of this New Mexico Association.

Michael: I love that you and I are both kind of like in our own way, seeing ourselves in her, because she's, that wouldn't have been obvious from the outside. I would never have,

Michelle: I would've never guessed that before we started working on this. There's a lot

Michael: to

Michelle: relate to.

Michael: Okay. So let's recap. So number one, you said nonchalance and bluntness.

Uh, number two I said successfully navigated the patriarchy. Number three, networked party girl is what we had. Yeah. Social butterfly and social butterfly. Number four, playfulness and number five relate to her for Sierra biographies and her story in places. Mm-hmm. Great list. Okay, let's take a break.

Category three, one love. In this category, we each choose one word or phrase that characterizes this person's loving relationships. First, we will review the family life [00:31:00] data. The first marriage was to a man named Michael Henry. This was a bit of a shotgun wedding. They met at the University of New Mexico.

They got pregnant. He said, let's do the right thing. They got married in 1963. Penny was 19. It was not a good idea. They divorced at 22 and they had one child, Tracy, who later became Tracy Reiner. So that leads to marriage number two to Rob Reiner. They got married in 1971. Penny was 27. Rob adopted Tracy.

The couple divorced in 1981. Penny was 37. If people don't know who Rob Reiner is, let me just throw this out real quick. So he was on all in the family, but his movies are what I absolutely love him for. And I'll just rattle off these six. When Harry met Sally, I. The Princess Bride. Shout out to our William Goldman episode.

Stand by Me A Few Good Men. Misery and Spinal Tap. Rob Reiner is a national treasure and the two of them together are like, wow. There's two more things to say and then I'm gonna hand it over to you. One, [00:32:00] we already mentioned the older brother Gary, he's really the reason she has a career and. It is absolutely worth mentioning that she dated Art Garfunkel for a period of time.

Her best friend, Carrie Fisher was on and off again with Paul Simon. So the four of them are kind of a thing, but the relationships like sometimes overlap and sometimes don't. But Art Garfunkel credits Penny Marshall with helping him through a very difficult period of depression. Art Garfunkel and Paul Simon have a notoriously fraught relationship.

Let me pause there. How did you think about the One Love category? This is a tough one.

Michelle: Oh, I think this was the category that I spent the most time debating. I'm looking at my notes here. I probably have 15 or 16 different ideas. I just kept trying out things. I think it's a tough one because I don't think Penny Marshall can be defined by her romantic relationships or should be okay because they were, I don't think her romantic relationships or her.

Even Primary fam, I mean, other than her brother. Yeah. And her daughter. I think [00:33:00] mostly, I mean, she is defined by her community.

Michael: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think this is fair. I like where you're going with this. All right, so, so I said community Gardener. Oh, nice. Oh, great. Yeah. You like that? I do. Well done. Okay, so, so she's

Michelle: cultivating her relationships like a garden, like many gardens, actually.

So if you think about a community garden, people have different plots. So I'm imagining that in this metaphor, penny Marshall's community garden has a garden for her romantic relationships. Mm-hmm. Which overlaps a little bit into her movie. You know, other things, they're all kind of connected to each other.

Yeah. But for each. Movie or project or party she has, there's another little garden created or even a chapter of life. A chapter of life. Exactly. So, you know, when she works on a league of their own there, there's a whole garden there and it's, yeah. All these gardens in my mind are sprawling everywhere when she's hanging out with

Michael: SNL crowd in the mid seventies.

Michelle: Totally. It's a garden for that.

Michael: One thing I like about this is the friendship with Rosie O'Donnell, Rosie's in the Garden.

Michelle: Oh yeah, there you go. Um, so she's [00:34:00] cultivating, she's tending to them and just like all of us, some of our guard parts of our garden will wither a little bit, but she, for example, we haven't mentioned her relationship with Cindy Williams, who played Shirley.

Right. On Lover and Shirley. And so they were very close for a long time. But it's kind of like roommates or in a relationship. Yeah. There was a falling out, not so much between them, but with the studio. And it caused, you know, issues and they didn't speak for many, many years, but then they finally get reconnected so that garden gets tended again and they get reconnected.

'cause you know, there were. Very deep and important part of their life. So this is a

Michael: great metaphor, Michelle. I think it actually does a very good job of characterizing her interpersonal relationships.

Michelle: That's the one that really seemed to sum it up for me and it, and I love that she's not defined by her romantic relationships, actually, because

Archival: Yeah,

Michelle: as a single woman myself, mm-hmm.

I love this idea that she, she wasn't limited by that. She wants to go to Switzerland, she brings a friend. She just does what she wants and whether or not she's in a relationship.

Michael: Yours is, I think probably better than what I went [00:35:00] with. I'll give you my one word. Let me walk you through my thinking. The title of the memoir is, my Mother Was Nuts.

Mm-hmm. And so I started thinking about nuts. Do you remember those pistachios used to buy at seven 11 that were colored with like red dye for some reason? Yes. That's what I went with. Red pistachio. Red pistachio.

Michelle: Tell me. Okay, tell me more.

Michael: Okay. Those are some, so the first, the first thing was her mother is kind of nuts.

There is a story about her mom saying, you need to know Penny, that your father and I are getting a divorce. You need to choose which one you're gonna live with. And she is like, oh God. Okay. She goes to the store and is like thinking about it like, mom's kind of fun, but Dad can provide, I'm not, I think I'm gonna go with mom.

Then her dad comes home and she says, I've decided to live with mom. And her dad's like, what are you talking about? We're not getting divorced. This was a whole, her mom is actually, that's kind of crazy bonkers. That's bonkers. Bon. That's bonkers. Bonkers to do that to

Michelle: a kid. Yeah, I know because she's mad at the dad.

Oh yeah. Her mom hated the dad their [00:36:00] whole lives, but they still live together. Yeah. And,

Michael: and so when, when Gary Marshall, her older brother, calls the siblings together and says, we're all on our own here. Yeah. We need to look out for each other. I mean, that's coming from a genuine place. Another part of it, I, of the, of my red pistachio thing, there's a little bit of papering over with Penny Marshall.

Like we actually don't know a whole lot about the relationships underneath the surface. And the fact that she never remarries after Rob Reiner, it doesn't exactly come up as a pain point. And, and I can't tell if it is, but uh. Thought that it was something about the artificial coloring there. This is maybe a bigger one and there's a little bit more to your community Garden's point.

Red pistachios would stick to your fingers and make your whole lips red when you ate them. So there's like a residue that hangs around that. I thought. I thought like her relationships are kind of, you know, there's a stickiness to 'em. Mm-hmm. Like she leaves semi-permanent marks. Uh, yeah. She didn't let people go very easily.

She's very loyal.

Michelle: I wrote that down a lot. Un I wrote [00:37:00] unshakeable loyalty. Very loyal. My phone bonds. Yeah.

Michael: And here's maybe the big one. Those pistachios are sometimes very, very hard to open. I think they're good inside, but there's a hard shell. They can be very frustrating to crack. I think Penny was frustrating to crack.

There's a toughness, a sarcasm, but there's also depth humor and as you say, loyalty. So red pistachio. I was just gonna say,

Michelle: I think, I think you're right. I mean, we're. I basing a lot of what I know about her from her autobiography. But there is a question, you know, there would be a, a moment where she'd say, oh yeah, I found out I was pregnant.

How could I be pregnant? I don't even, like, she just like, she's glossing over like, wait, who are you sleeping with? You're so glossing over her. What is happening? And

Michael: I mean, and she sort of makes reference three or four times. Like I was not the best mother. I, it doesn't seem like there is major strife between her and Tracy, but Tracy is in some of the movies.

She's in big, she's in a league of her own Yeah. And has had her own career. But I don't know, you hear Penny Marshall talk a little bit more effusively about being a grandmother than being a [00:38:00] mother. Yes. I'm not saying there's no love. I think that there is love, but I, I think that she was not a prototypical mom.

Michelle: No. You know. No. And she says that too. I wasn't the best mom. And she says, now my daughter says my mom is nuts. And she's right. But yeah, I, I was looking in her autobiography for. You know, as a mother myself, I was like, how is Penny Marshall as a mother? You don't, let's talk about it. There's not a lot there.

A sense of it. You don't get a sense of it though. Tracy Reiner seems very well adjusted. Like I looked her up and I was like, she seems great.

Michael: Yeah. From what you can tell, I mean, we never really know, but one thing that's actually sort of interesting about Penny Marshall is there does not seem to be a deeply addictive personality.

Mm-hmm. I mean, she's hanging out with Carrie Fisher as her best friend who goes in and outta rehab and was sort of notorious for her cocaine usage. And Penny Marshall talks about like hanging out with John Lucci. She was, yeah. Like everybody else in the entertainment industry, doing a lot of cocaine in the seventies, it doesn't seem to carry over into a problematic behavior except for the smoking.

Except for the smoking. That's exactly what I was about to say. Yep. I mean, she's definitely hanging out with people who [00:39:00] have reputations as heavy drug users, but that does not seem to have landed on her. And one thing that she does say, like Art Garfunkel steered her away from heroin. Yes. At one point. So yeah, she still

Michelle: thinks him for that.

Michael: Yeah. Wild. Okay, let's move on category four, net worth. In this category. We will write down our numbers ahead of time. We'll talk a little bit about our reasoning. We'll then reveal our numbers and look up the net worth number in real time to see who's closest. Finally, we will place this person on the famous eng gravy net worth leaderboard.

I'll just offer a couple of things As I thought through this, she never made the leap to executive producer, which is sort of interesting to me because it did seem like she was actor who became a director who would have maybe gone on to be an ep. But her career Peters a little bit. I was looking at other directors we've done on Famous and Gravy.

Harold Ramis, who did make that leap, landed at 90 million. Wes Craven, 40 million, and George Romero at 35 million. Directors do seem to be more well compensated, [00:40:00] but again, her career kind of petered. And then Laverne Shirley was syndicated, but as an actress, I'm not sure what the residuals on that were.

And then there's the Kmart commercials with Rosie O'Donnell, which were quite the campaign in the late nineties. Look

Archival: at all these toys. Kmarts Toy Mania. Look, teacher Barbie and Ocean Friend Barbie. What's three plus one? Like, I don't know. Imagine Kmart's taking 20% off all Fisher-Price toys.

Michael: Where else?

Archival: But

Michael: Kmart. Anything else that you'd add to the mix? Not really.

Michelle: I kind of just went with a gut feeling.

Michael: Okay. Well let's reveal, so Michelle Linberg wrote down 50 million. Wow, that's a big number. And

Michelle: Michael Osborne wrote down 25 million.

Michael: Okay. The actual net worth for Penny Marshall, 45 million. Woo. Nicely done, Michelle.

My gut feeling, my God gut feeling. I am on feeling a cold streak on Famous Eng Gravy. Oh, nicely done. Okay, thank you. Gut

Michelle: feeling, I don't know. Gut,

Michael: gut feeling is right. 45 million. All right, so [00:41:00] at 45 million, penny Marshall, that puts her tied in Position 28, which is the top 35% of Famous and Gravy. She has one other person keeping her company there.

Leonard Nemo. Leonard Nemoy also died with, uh, about $45 million. Who, by the way, did you know he directed three men and a baby? The directors do well. I know the directors do pretty well, so great number. Well done. Okay. I'm really glad to actually that if part of the story we are telling here about Penny Marshall is that sees somebody who should be remembered more.

This net worth number kind of captures that. Not that money is equivalent of worth, but it does say something that she achieved that level. Okay, let's move on. Category five, little Lebowski, urban Achievers.

Archival: They're the little Lebowski, urban achievers. So yeah, the achievers,

Michael: yes, and proud. We are

Archival: of all of them

Michael: in this category, we each choose a trophy, an award, a cameo and impersonation, or some other form of a hat tip that shows a different side of this person.

Michelle: So I discovered that [00:42:00] Penny Marshall was the first celebrity voice. On the first episode ever produced of The Simpsons.

Michael: Amazing. I saw this too. I love that. This is where you went. So wait, is the very first episode of The Simpsons, or is it in the first season? No, so it

Michelle: was originally intended, it's called Some Enchanted Evening, and it's actually season one, episode 13.

It was originally intended to be the pilot episode, the first episode, but the way it was animated, I guess, wasn't up to the standards that they wanted, so they had to go back and redo it. So in the time that it took to do that, it ended up being the last episode of the season.

Michael: Got it. Okay. So this is sort of like the way Abby wrote is The Beatles last album that was recorded, but not the last last album that was released.

Michelle: Exactly right. So the, the release

Michael: and recording dates are a little bit different.

Michelle: Yes. Do you wanna know what character she played? Yeah, of course. Okay, so she played the Notorious Babysitter Bandit. Lucille, I remember this. Sakowski. AKA Miss Bots

Archival: bot.

Michelle: Hmm.

Archival: [00:43:00] Time to brush your teeth. Wash your face and say your prayers.

You are the babysitter. Bandit. You're a smart young man. Bart. I hope you're smart enough to keep your mouth shut.

Michael: I mean, that is. Actually that really speaks to the social butterfly thing, that she's the first person to voice on the Simpsons. Sure. I mean, when you look at the 35 plus year history of the Simpsons, one of the things that it's most known for is celebrity voices.

Mm-hmm. Right? And that she was the first that that's right up there with a hundred million dollars for I think so too. For you know, first woman director. Think so too. Like that is actually a pioneering accomplishment. What did you have? I had a hard time coming up with anything. I had wanted to sort of point to some of her charity work, but I couldn't get enough data on it.

The clip I stumbled upon that I just loved is Fred Armisen. There is a Fred Armisen clip of him pretending to be Penny Marshall and promoting Penny Marshall's memoir the book. And she was apparently delighted by this and it's hilarious. And I'll just

Archival: play a little [00:44:00] clip on Penny Marshall is my new book.

My mother was not memoir by Penny Marshall. That's me. My mother was not. That's some good stories in it. The book's coming out September 18th. Are we gonna have a phone number here? A link? A link to what? Amazon.

Michael: You gotta go to the Amazon and get a book, buy it. The reason I chose this one is one I had a hard time finding one to land on, but two, there is something where she lends herself to parody.

Like almost everybody seems to want to do a Penny Marshall impersonation. It gets back to the nonchalance point that there's something about her where you don't quite take her as seriously as you should.

Michelle: Yeah, I think it's like the accent. It's almost like a shield or something. Or it, it's a layer that makes it a little harder to get.

Well, that's also she'll,

Michael: she'll have those glasses at the edge of her nose. You have little tiny glasses, right, where she's looking over her eyeglasses and mm-hmm. And has a look on her face where you can't really read her right. She will laugh and smile. You can't tell if she's frowning, but [00:45:00] you do feel like she's.

Sizing me up and I think actually Fred Armisen does a good job in this impersonation. It's visual, but we'll link to it in the show notes. Let's take another break. Category six words to live by. In this category, we each choose a quote. These are either words that came outta this person's mouth or was said about them.

I'll lead with this one if I can. Okay. She said, I'm not someone who has had to deal with much personal drama outside of the usual, growing up with parents who hated each other, two marriages and divorces of my own. There was the cancer thing too. That's a lot. I

Michelle: don't know. That's a lot. I had that one too.

I wrote that one down too.

Michael: Is that normal? I guess it is too much per, I've been saying this lately when people have said, Michael, how you doing? And I've actually had a friend say, the better question to ask is, Michael, what are you up against? Because everybody, when you say how you doing, they say, I'm fine.

And that's always a lie. Nobody's fine. And to ask the question, what are you up against? To actually cuts through some of the noise, all of the things going on in my life right now, I have been describing 'em as within one standard [00:46:00] deviation of normal life troubles. And there's something about this quote that actually captures that, you know, parents who hated each other, two marriages and two divorces and cancer like there that is actually over the course of a lifetime, kind of normal.

Yeah. It is. I mean, I, it, it scares me that that's normal. Yeah. I haven't gone through divorces. I hope I never do. You've been through one. Mm-hmm. But it's not abnormal. It's, it's not abnormal. Right. And neither is cancer. Right. And neither is parents who have a fraught relation. All of this is actually normal, and I like that she normalizes things that sound like a big deal.

Mm-hmm. It gets back at the nonchalance thing, so it does. That was, that was the quote I went with. All right. What you been with here. Yeah. I

Michelle: love that. Let's see. I'm gonna read this one. I was learning that I didn't have to have everything figured out often. The point was to live and see what happened.

Michael: Yeah. That's really, I mean, this is, this is the theme we keep returning to. Yeah. Whether it's nonchalance, indifference, or zen. Mm-hmm. I don't know. These things kind [00:47:00] of look the same from the outside. Yes, exactly. Um, but, but, but there is a real message of acceptance in there.

Michelle: Just to go. Don't, don't fear so much, just try things.

Just see what happens. It's an adventure and it kind of relates. Can I read one more quote from her? Yeah, go ahead. It says, as would be the case, many times throughout my life I managed to shine despite my general apathy. It's at the beginning of her memoir. Yeah. And it's like that is what happens. She's kind of, she has this apathetic attitude, but she still shines.

Michael: I mean, the real question is, how real is all this? I don't think she's apathetic. I don't think she is either. And the quote that you had much earlier on about how she's interesting combination of fearlessness and insecurity. She is somebody who will pick up the phone and call somebody she doesn't know.

And is blunt and brash that way. Yes. And that is fearlessness. But I don't see her as somebody who pretends to have no fear. Insecurity is fear. It is fear of my ego. How am I coming across my [00:48:00] rendering myself vulnerable or putting myself at risk somehow?

Michelle: I would love to know what she was. Fearful of because she's not afraid to call people.

She's not afraid to direct when she has absolutely no directing experience. She's a little afraid, but she's like, Hey, I need help. She asked for help. So no directing

Michael: experience with big movies. I mean, she did with Verta. Ginny, that's a great question, Michelle.

Michelle: I wish I could ask her that. Like what are, what were you afraid of?

Michael: I think we'll get to that in a future category. Yes. All right, let's move on. Category seven, man in the Mirror. This category is fairly simple. Did this person like their reflection? Yes or no? This is not about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence, a versus self-judgment. I'll go ahead and just offer this out.

She, in her memoir in several moments, talks about feeling very insecure about her looks. Yeah. So I went with no there, you know, one of her first onscreen moments was this head and shoulders commercial. Yes. With Farrah Faucet, where she's like the less good looking roommate Clean. Yeah. Yeah. And they're having a conversation about her dandruff and it works for my hair.

And she talks about going home [00:49:00] and crying that night. Mm-hmm. Because she knew how she was being cast and she knew that when there were callouts for less attractive women. In parts and TV and movies. She was like, I, I hated that. She has real insecurities about her looks.

Michelle: Yeah. She talks about that her whole life.

She has this overbite. Yeah. She isn't traditionally a beauty though. I thought she was very attractive. Um,

Michael: yeah, I did too actually. I think, I think that she overstates that. I mean, well, that's the thing, and this is why I landed on No, is that I do think she's operating in an entertainment industry. Yes. In a culture where that message of you are not pretty, is reinforced over and over whether it's true or not, that everybody there, it's, you know, this is social Darwinism and everybody's trying to be as beautiful as possible.

That, that message I do think sinks in. So I, I went with No, but now that I'm saying that in the context of the conversation we've been having about acceptance and nonchalance and all that. Mm-hmm. I, I, you know, now I'm questioning a little bit. So how did, how did, what did [00:50:00] you go with here?

Michelle: So I definitely wrote down what you said about how she talked about her whole life.

She, you know, was insecure about her looks and in fact, there's this birth announcement. Do you remember the story where, when she's born? She's born. She's a baby. Yeah, she's a newborn baby. Her dad. Draws this comic.

Michael: It's cartoon. It's like a New Yorker style cartoon.

Michelle: And it says, who'd you expect? Teddy Lamar.

Right. Who is a beautiful woman. Yeah. And it's like they're talking

Michael: about their baby. She is told at a young age by her parents, you're not attractive in as many ways. Right. I mean explicitly in this example. But her mom is also reinforcing that idea when she's comparing her to other dancers in her dance school.

Yes. So where did you land? Did you say yes or no?

Michelle: I said physical looks wise. Yes. She was labeled The Plain Girl and like in the Head of Shoulders commercial, she, yeah, lots of negative comments about her looks. It's a little hard to tell if she liked herself or not, but I think so. She does say, I always wanted to be prettier, but I think she likes herself.

I don't think somebody that doesn't like themselves could have so [00:51:00] many friends. Yeah. And you know so many connections if they're feeling bad about themselves all the time. And I think she likes her attitude. Maybe she has a hard time with her looks, but she likes herself in other ways.

Michael: I mean, penny Marshall's a fun one for this category.

Yeah. In a way, maybe fun's not quite the right word, because Interesting the way we describe this category, it's not about beauty. Rather, a question of self-confidence for self-judgment almost gets back to my red pistachio. I think she does like her insides quite a bit. Mm-hmm. I think she has mixed feelings about her outsides.

Yeah. Whether or not those things find harmony, which is kind of the quest in life, you know? Mm-hmm. On some level is we've been talking about attachments and surrender and indifference and life gives you what it gives you. I mean, part of what we want to do in life is to have our outsides match our insides, you know?

Right. Yeah. And I, I, I have questions whether or not she arrived there, but I think that there's, your thinking is sound to me. Mm. I'm still going. No, I still think, you know, this is almost an agree to disagree category. Okay, cool. All [00:52:00] right, let's move on. Category eight, coffee cocktail or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity.

I'm waffling a little bit. Here you go. First

Michelle: I'm changing what I wrote down. Actually, I'm, this is off the cuff here, so we didn't talk about this much, but she lost a lot of friends to overdoses or drug problems or things related to that.

Michael: Yeah. John Behi, John Behi and Gary Marshall's writing partner, I forget his name, but he, he died suddenly.

I mean there's, there's actually quite a few Yes. Deaths in her life. Yes. A lot

Michelle: of deaths that she talks about, and not all of them were related to drugs, but she grew up, she came up in this time, partied and cocaine, and it was just so casually used all the time, and so I'm gonna go away. From cannabis.

'cause I, I was trying to think like, which era of Penny Marshall would I wanna hang out with? 'cause there is the one that would be really fun to hang out with in the seventies and she could introduce you to a bunch of people and that would be really fun. Yeah. But I, I kind of, I think I would like to talk to her in the last years before she died [00:53:00] and get her wisdom.

And I would like to, I would love coffee with her and I would ask her these questions that I was thinking about earlier, like. What,

Michael: what are your fears?

Michelle: Yeah, what are your fears? And also what, what gave you kind of the balls to do some of the things that you did? Like where does that confidence come from?

Totally, totally. And also I wanna ask her, how did you create community? How did you cultivate community in such an effective way? Yeah, because I want more of that in my life. I feel like I could do better at that. Like I get so busy, I'm exhausted, I don't have time. Like I can't even imagine my house being like a party house.

Michael: Yeah.

Michelle: But I love that idea that I could have parties and do things so. I think I want more of a community garden in my life, and I would wanna ask her more about that. But also, yeah, I would be curious if she would, let me ask her about her fears. I feel like it would be hard to get to, but if she would, oh, she's a red pistachio.

It's hard to crack that. She's a, she's a hard nut to crack. But if she would let me, I would ask her some questions about those things.

Michael: I love the idea of you with like a, a Togo mug and a community garden [00:54:00] with penny Marsh, or maybe we're walking

Michelle: around a garden. Yeah, I can, I wasn't even picturing in the city.

We're walking around a literal garden. She's like, why are we in the garden? What's going on? I like, like, this is a metaphor for your, she's like, okay, can you just see that this is a

Michael: lovely scene? And I actually do think you, you might be able to, you, you might be able to get something if you could keep her on track.

I basically want the same thing, but at an earlier chapter and with a different substance. So I do want to go to the. Party. Okay. And I do want to go to like 19 82, 83 when she and Carrie Fisher are having all kinds of fun and all kinds of people are drifting through. I was thinking I'd like to get good and tipsy with a Mexican martini.

Something that's like a, a potent drink. But I, I actually think I'd like to ask the same questions. Mm-hmm. Just at an earlier chapter of life, you seem like an unlikely person to be here. And yes, your brother opened some doors, but you walked through them and have made more than what was available to you.

You seem to be navigating this system. Well, your arrow is pointing upward. I want to get [00:55:00] those vibes a little bit and I think it'd actually be interesting to contrast our two conversations, one at an earlier chapter and one at a later chapter. 'cause we're always. Everybody. I think, uh, especially once you hit middle age, you start editing your story.

Mm-hmm. Or you start working on your own biography and like how did this all happen? Yeah. I'd be curious to see how much that story changed for her between kind of rocket ship moments with Laverne and Shirley and leading into directing to later in life when you know she's not working as much and what does it all mean?

Okay. Well, I think we have arrived. The final category, the VanDerBeek named after James VanDerBeek, who famously said in Varsity Blues, I don't want your life. In that varsity blue scene, James makes a judgment that he does not want a certain kind of life based on just a few characteristics. So here Michelle and I will form a rebuttal to anyone skeptical of how Penny Marshall lived.

I'm gonna run through the counter arguments really quick. 'cause I think they're kind of obvious. Yeah. That she did not have a life partner at the end, I think is like a [00:56:00] superficial thing. Maybe. Maybe it's important, but I would counter that with your. Community garden metaphor. Mm-hmm. She had relationships.

Yeah. I do also think that, you know, the work petered out and it's not clear to me how much that meant to her. I think she's proud of her successes, whether or not she really wanted to do big, meaty, meaningful projects in the future. I'm actually not so sure that some of this wasn't a little bit intentional, that when she talks about directing, she's like, it's a dog's effort.

Or Dog's work. Dog's

Michelle: work. Yeah.

Michael: Yeah, that, that it actually is like exhausting and only so worth it, even if it did lead to a big payday. But as we've gone through this conversation, that kind of stuff has actually like. Become more diffused for me. Sure. That the, the, the reasons to want this life are actually quite compelling.

Mm. I'll throw this back to you. What is like the number one reason why you would want this life, Michelle?

Michelle: The community. Just to have so many people. Yes. And yeah, we talk about a lot of the famous ones, but in her acknowledgements, in her autobiography, she lists dozens of other [00:57:00] people with just their first name and an initial 'cause.

They're not famous people and she has so many people in her life that we don't even know about.

Michael: Yeah, it's a good point. And we really haven't done it justice. I don't think it's about star power. I think it's about creativity, which is different, that there are creative people who are famous. There are also creative people who are not famous.

My friends who have worked in Hollywood have all said, look, whatever else you think of this industry, it is dense with creative people and that is exciting and fun.

Michelle: Absolutely. And she does call out some of those people who have those. Different positions that we wouldn't know about, like the people who do the behind the scenes work that she loved to work with.

But yeah, I would want this life because she's surrounded by amazing, creative, fun people. Yeah. And her life just sounded fun. Yeah. I mean,

Michael: that is absolutely something I want. So that's, that's the number one. I mean, thing number two for me is actually the nonchalance attitude. I don't know how far I want to go with that, but I do like the idea that I'm not attached to things.

Mm-hmm. And that I have some acceptance about whatever life [00:58:00] delivers and how she got there. I mean, it, what, what's funny is what's not here. There's no big ayahuasca trip. There's no deep work with a therapist that we learn about. There's no spiritual quest or commitment to faith or anything like that.

She, she just seems to have found this. And so it does seem like a innate characteristic on some level. I mean, shaped by circumstances for sure, but not found through all the big. Pathways that you might otherwise find that kind of zen master attitude. Sure. I mean, it might've

Michelle: been a protection when she was a kid, and then it just kind of Totally, yeah.

Came from her critical mother or something, and then as she gets older, it's like, well, that's just how I am, and it seems to be working for her. So she keeps going.

Michael: That's an interesting theory, a kind of defense mechanism that evolves into an okay defense mechanism to carry with you through life. Yeah.

But that's thing number two for me. And then I don't know, I mean, if we were to throw a number three in here, pioneer.

Michelle: Yeah.

Michael: This woman made waves in an industry dominated by men at a time [00:59:00] where that is against the odds and her accolades and her credits are gonna go down in history. They should. I mean, that's absolutely, I think one of the.

The cases we've been making throughout the conversation.

Michelle: And these are movies that last, like I was, yeah. You know, reading all these movies, I'm like, I gotta rewatch big, I gotta, with my daughter totally. I act, think of their own and they of their own and their awakenings and I wanna rewatch some Liver and Shirley and some other things.

You know, like those are fun movies. They're really, you know, puffs and maybe even important, important, important movies. Yeah. That shaped me. I remember watching these movies and being very affected by them.

Michael: Yeah. Okay. Let's recap. I think so number one, a creative community. Number two, I'll just say zen master.

And number three, contribution. Especially as a woman in a male dominated industry. So with that, James VanDerBeek. I'm Penny Marshall and you want my life?

Okay, before we get to the speed round, if you [01:00:00] enjoyed this episode, if you find it a hopeful story and maybe even an important story, and you've got your phone in your hand right now, send this to a friend. Send this to somebody who could use a hopeful message in troubling times. It is how we grow the show.

Okay. Plugs for past shows. Michelle, if you liked the Penny Marshall episode, what other episode from the archives should people listen to?

Michelle: Carrie Fisher? Definitely. Why not hear from her best friend? So glad you went there. Absolutely. Yeah. Yes, I love that.

Michael: I loved doing the Carrie Fisher episode. We had guest host Jennifer Keshan Armstrong.

This was episode 68, sentient Princess. One thing about the Carrie Fisher episode is like she was a mental health advocate and pioneer in a way that I don't think we appreciated. So I do think one reason I love that you draw attention to that is there is an underappreciated legacy. This is a little bit of a weird one, but I'm gonna go episode 80, super Funk Hauser, Bob Einstein.

So Bob Einstein, most people dunno, this was actually Albert Brooks', brother Bob [01:01:00] Einstein was also Super Dave Osborne and. Marty Funkhouser on Curb Your Enthusiasm. It's a little bit of a family business story, but there's also a lot of behind the scenes impact and meaning and, and it's just a fun episode.

So episode 80, super Funkhouser with Bob Einstein. Here is a little teaser for the next episode of Famous and Gravy. In 1974, he was embroiled in a personal scandal after he was found to have written a check for prostitution services at a Kentucky massage parlor.

Archival: All I can think of is the Preachers Falwell, Jerry Falwell.

Larry. Yeah, no.

Michael: Matt, Jerry Falwell, famous and Gravy Listeners, we love hearing from you. If you wanna reach out with a comment question or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousenggravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels.

Famous and Gravy is created and co-hosted by Amad Kippur and me, Michael Osborne. Thanks to Michelle Dalberg for guest hosting on this [01:02:00] episode. It was produced by Ali Ola with original music by Kevin St. Strang. Thanks. See you next time.