107 Corgi Whisperer transcript (Queen Elizabeth II)
Sara: [00:00:00] This is Famous and Gravy biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousenggravy.com. Now here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity. This
Michael: person died 2022, age 96. She works to be a rare bastion of permanence in a world of shifting values.
Friend: Goodness gracious permanence, shifting values.
Michael: I have no
Friend: idea. I'm sorry. I have no idea. Mother Teresa.
Michael: Not Mother Teresa. Good guess. During the Covid pandemic, she said, quote, many of us will need to find new ways of staying in touch with each other and making sure that loved ones are safe. You can be assured that my family and I stand ready to play our part.
That
Friend: could have
Michael: been anyone.
Friend: Sounds like something a very wealthy or a political figure would say, but I don't know.
Michael: Barbara Bush, not Barbara Bush. In 2017, she celebrated her 70th anniversary to her [00:01:00] husband, whom she first met when she was just a teenager. Michael,
Friend: I, I am batting 0.00. Okay?
Michael: Is that Julia Child, not Julia Child.
Her institution was forced to justify its existence in the face of often skeptical public attention and scrutiny. Her institution,
Friend: her institution, Ruth Ga, uh, Bader Ginsburg, g Gator Ginsburg.
Michael: No, not, not Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Right? I've no idea. Who the hell are you going on about? She was Britain's longest serving monarch.
Oh, for fucking
Archival: sake.
Friend: You're asking a, you're asking a fucking Republican about the fucking queen. Oh, sweet Lord. Queen Elizabeth.
Archival: Oh, queen Elizabeth.
Friend: Today's
Michael: dead celebrity is Queen Elizabeth.
Archival: I declare before you all that my whole life, whether it be long or short, shall be devoted to your service and to the [00:02:00] service of our great imperial family, to which we all belong.
But I shall not have strength to carry out this resolution alone unless you join in it with me, as I now invite you to do. God, help me to make good my vow, and God bless all of you who are willing to share in it.
Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne, and my name is Sarah Murphy. And on this show, we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today?
Queen Elizabeth II died 2022, age 96. Sarah Murphy, welcome to Famous and Gravy.
Sara: Thank you. At last.
Michael: At [00:03:00] last, exactly. Yeah. I mean, so when we were initially developing the show five years ago or so, you were originally slotted to be a third co-host, and at the time you said. Your employer was making that difficult?
Sara: Well, they were, yeah. I'd have to sign up processes and give all these disclaimers. Yeah.
Michael: Yeah. And I'm like, you realize you're just gonna be talking about dead celebrities. Why are they throwing up these shoes? But nobody's,
Sara: nobody will think I'm giving legal advice.
Michael: Right, right. And, and, which we should say you're a lawyer.
But anyway, so a few weeks ago you said, Hey, I've had some life events and it turns out I am available now to come on the podcast. And I was like, yes. Finally. But then I was like, okay, I wanna have a grand introduction for Sarah Murphy. Let's choose a big figure here. And in a moment of inspiration, I, I texted you, how about the queen?
And you said. Yes. And then five minutes later I got cold feet and I said, how about not the queen? I don't know if we can do the queen. And I was like, no, no,
Sara: no, no,
Michael: no, no. I'm all wrapped up. We're doing the queen. [00:04:00] Exactly. Alright, so because once you start thinking about the queen, you can't not do the queen.
Well, this is kind of brings us to the present moment. I still have major trepidation about featuring the queen on famous and gravy because how could we possibly do this justice? There's too much to cover. This is like an impossible life that isn't available to us. We will never be born into royalty or the sovereignty ourselves.
So what is the case, Sarah, that we should be doing an episode of the Queen? Like why do you wanna go forth here?
Sara: Well, there is a vast amount of information, but there's definitely things that we don't know and there are things we're not gonna necessarily understand about her. And at the end of the day, she's a sovereign, but she's also a person.
And so we can look at her as someone who had a remarkably successful career by most standards and
Michael: good use of the word career. But yeah,
Sara: like kind of like the Muhammad Ali episode. Her life [00:05:00] tracks the 21st Century's history. So for that reason, it's a little bit intimidating to take it on. I agree. Right, right.
But we're not here to give every detail, we're not gonna give a comprehensive history of her life. Yeah. We are here to talk about how two people experienced her within our lives and in pop culture, and. And then what we would take, would take from it if we could. What? Like what we envy about it, what we don't want.
And I think that's still a, like a worthy exercise with a famous and gravy lens. So, yeah.
Michael: Well, and I, I mean, I think another point of hesitation for me is like you're a fan of the Crown, the TV show, right? And you, you lived in the UK for a period of time, so you mm-hmm. Are like a little, yeah. You know, a little bit more and have been following this.
I personally have gone out of my way in my 46 years on Planet Earth to avoid any kind of ex exposure to the royal stories. I wasn't before we got ready for this episode. All that interested in Diana's death, or Harry and Meghan [00:06:00] or application. Yeah. We're
Sara: not, I don't think we're interested in most of those headlines.
It certainly occupied a lot of period time, but you have to know those stories
Michael: to do this episode though, you know? Well, some
Sara: of them. Some of them you have to know that she had. Four children, only one of whom has not gone through a divorce. Yeah. And she has this large family. She is managing while also being the sovereign and uh, being,
Michael: staying career focused.
Sara: Yeah. Yeah. It's just that, yeah. That your career is. The firm and some type of, um, institution that you're trying to preserve that it's difficult in a lot of instances to justify. So there's a
Michael: lot of demands on your time. No, and I think you also said something a, a a second ago about part humanity, and I think that, you know, one of the ways I've, I certainly think about the show these days is that there is symbolism in celebrity and in mm-hmm.
Celebrity stories. And I think that there's also underlying humanity. And I think our show tries to wrestle with those two ideas. I don't [00:07:00] think we're gonna satisfy, like if you are a big time fan of all the stories of the royalty, I doubt you'll learn anything on this episode that you don't already know.
I think the conceit here is that by applying our approach to the famous eng gravy lens to use your terminology, maybe something will come out of it. So. Maybe let's just go for it. I'm all in. Let's go. All right. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Queen Elizabeth II Britain's longest serving monarch, whose broadly popular seven decade reign, survived tectonic shifts in her country's post imperial society and weathered successive challenges posed by the romantic choices, missteps and em.
Bolios of her descendants died on Thursday at Balmar Castle in Scotland. Her summer retreat, she was 96.
Sara: I was displeased. I thought it's really okay. I was, yeah. I thought it started out really strong. Like she starts [00:08:00] as Queen Victoria and ends as a Kardashian, and I just don't think that that's how it should go.
I felt like it was, yeah, know. I
Michael: see it. You're right. It's, I mean, you really could cut this in half and say, longest serving Monarch, broadly popular rain, surviving tectonic shifts, like grand stakes. And then the second half is all about, but there was a whole bunch of family drama around romantic missteps, which is like, is this the thing we know her for?
Sara: I think it would be fair to reference the family. I mean like the social changes that were reflected in her family, or there are other ways to say what they wanted to say here, but I thought you had 96 years, you know, like you could just, this didn't have to be done and it ends overnight with the
Friend: Kardashians.
Yeah.
Sara: Yeah. And I think that's not how I would've done it. It's true that they're post Imperial and that they're not particularly growing, but I think imperialism is still at play. I, I don't know.
Michael: Let's parse this out a little bit. So, longest [00:09:00] serving Monarch awesome.
Sara: Yeah, and I think actually has to be said
Michael: Absolutely.
Surviving tectonic shifts. I like the use of the word tectonic here. I do too. Post Imperial Society, you were taking issue with post Imperial. It's not incorrect.
Sara: I just think that there could have been more reference to what the Commonwealth is, as opposed to the fact that there's this post Imperial. But is is that where
Michael: the sentence started to go off the rails for you then?
Sara: Yes. I would've gone survived tectonic shifts and then I would've maybe even said, not only within her country, but. Throughout the Commonwealth and then weathered successive challenges. I mean, there were so many challenges other than her children and their relationships.
Michael: Well, so let me probe at that a little bit.
Your reaction is making me think about why. Mm-hmm. There is this higher idea of what the Crown represents and how we understand that as a symbol of Britain's power, past, present, and future. However, I do think that over the course of [00:10:00] her lifetime, the newspapers, the tabloids, the TV coverage, and her celebrity for one of a better term, was largely about the romantic entanglements and drama of her heirs.
So, while I am with you that this does not honor her and almost degrades her, it's not. In my mind inappropriate because if the first line of the obituary is meant to be, this is what you know this person for. Mm-hmm. The sad, frustrating truth is this is kind of what we know this person for.
Sara: Oh no, I, I, that's why I think that it's appropriate to say something about she did weather challenges within her family and there were a number of, and her brain did have to survive that.
I just think successive challenges, I wasn't ready to go into romantic choices and so,
Michael: yeah. Yeah, yeah. I hear your point and I think it's a valid one. Yeah. I think I probably disagree. What is your score?
Sara: I gave her a four. I. Whoa.
Michael: I was expecting like a seven. My goodness. I'm
Sara: sorry. I've been reading about the English all day, [00:11:00] so I, my, I, I, I've left hyperbole behind.
I suppose. It's just a bit under my expectations, so we'll give it a four outta 10.
Michael: Alright, I'm, I was toggling between a nine and a 10 and now I think I'm gonna go eight. Okay. Okay. I do think it does deteriorate. It is a little bit sad. I stand by the argument that like it or not, this is not just what we know her for.
This is most what we know her for. Mm-hmm. While I think that there's a lot of important events. And then exercising of soft power. This is the reminder of why you were mostly hearing about her, and that's how I've come to understand the first line of the obit. I, I love your four though. I know. I
Sara: know. I hear you.
I, okay, well, I think I would look at it differently. That's all.
Michael: I'm so glad to finally have you on the show and to be somebody who's like ready to hold the first line of the obit to a high standard. Okay. Let's move on. Category two, five things I love about you here. Sarah and I will develop a list of five things that offer a different [00:12:00] angle on who this person was and.
How they lived. Before we get into this, you and I had a real interesting phone call about this episode before the recording where I said, you know, one of the reasons I'm most excited for Queen Elizabeth II on Famous and Gravy is that I've come to understand the show as almost like dream interpretation.
That these characters that exist in the popular conscious celebrities are symbols. And I was like, and this is all symbology. It's all, there's so much symbolism. And you were like, yeah, I don't wanna do that. I wanna actually make this person real and bring out their humanity. So we kind of decided this is, I think this is gonna be a theme of this whole episode.
We agreed to disagree. So along those lines, my first thing that I love about her is that she is a symbol of stability. And I have in the lead up to this episode, been having a little bit of Monarch envy. Let me start by saying. I have gone out of my way here too, for in life to not pay attention to the romantic entanglements of the [00:13:00] monarchy.
And like, like I did not watch The Crown and I ignored the tabloids. I didn't care about any of this stuff. Mm-hmm. But this episode has been a great reason to like actually do a deep dive. And now I'm sort of fascinated. This all relates to my. Point about symbol of stability. We don't have that in America.
There is no one human in America who is above politics, who represents the entire nation state. And I dare to say we could use that right now because we put all these identities in front of our nationality. And it is actually, I think, a very useful thing for a country to have a single human whose whole purpose in life, for the most part, is to represent the national character, the national identity.
Mm-hmm. And boy, we could use that among other things though, and to make this sort of more of a famous and gravy point. What a gift to be born. With a sense of purpose. Oh, yes. Yeah. And I think that we all need [00:14:00] that in life and sometimes we have to manufacture that. Mm. As if there's a point as if the world is not a big joke and I'm envious not of the riches and the wealth and the power, but I'm envious of destiny and the implied destiny that you were born into this world with a point.
We all actually have that and should have that. It's just extremely well represented in her. My experience is that it even acts on the British people, whether they want it to be there or not. Yeah. You know what I
Sara: mean? The point on which I disagreed with you is simply that she is not just a symbol. So, and I think one point that really drove this home for me is I did.
A date, an Englishman for a while who had told me that wherever we live, I'll need to have a photo of the Queen available because she is the monarch. She is England. And the way he described it, I was like, it, it sounded like we might have like a little embassy in the house, right? So this idea that the Queen is in fact England or the sovereign does resonate and insofar [00:15:00] as famous and gravy is about looking at celebrity or fame as a reflection of us.
The story I like to tell is that I did teach for two years at a school called Uppingham School in Rutland. There was all this chalk because the queen was going, it was a race course. She was gonna be the first monarch to go like watch a motor car race. And then on her way back she was gonna cut through Rutland.
And so everyone was talking about it around town as though. It was kind of the buzz, but half the town was kind of complaining about it. Like, I can't believe we're going to all this trouble. I can't believe like she's literally driving through town, like what's the point?
Michael: Oh God, we gotta deal with the queen coming through.
What a disruption. That kind of thing. Yeah, exactly.
Sara: Like what is all this hassle about? What I really loved is despite that being like the general tone, everybody showed up, like streets were lined with people. They were so excited. And I just remember this particularly gruff housemaster who always looked like he was like walking off a rugby pitch who had been complaining perhaps the [00:16:00] loudest.
The whole week was walking away after the event with his daughter on his shoulders and tears in his eyes and I was like. Busted, you know? Yeah.
Michael: It's almost like religion, right? Like not in terms of its belief system, but in terms of how deeply entrenched, if you are a Brit, you cannot help but feel pulled back to, I still love the queen and I still love this, this institution.
Sara: Yeah. Okay. So what do you got for number two? So I like that she stood in her power, like what power existed for her. She was able to claim and she had a sense of self-determination. Even though once her Uncle Abdicates,
Michael: I guess we should explain that Edward, back in the thirties, he's like, she was not gonna be the queen necessarily when she was born.
No.
Sara: So this was not a Charles, William or even George situation, mainly because she is in fact a woman. So they've changed this now. So if George has a daughter first, then that daughter would be the heir apparent. But she was [00:17:00] only the heir presumptive. Which meant that to be an heir apparent, the only thing that has to stand between you and the crown is the sovereign dying.
Mm-hmm. But she could have been trumped by the birth of a boy, so,
Michael: right. Okay. She was still
Sara: kind of this era presumptive. She had a childhood where there was no anticipation. She'd be stepping into the crown, and so she had a little bit more freedom. Yeah. And then it was really kind of sprung on her father.
And then when her father steps in, she knows then she's gonna be queen one day, unless her parents have a son. And I did read in one of these biographies that both she and Margaret prayed for a brother, so that like they wouldn't have to deal with this, but there were two choices that she got to make that.
Were pretty big choices. One is that she was too young for much of the war to be able to serve, but she did actually end up going and becoming a mechanic and driver at the very end of the war, like when she was 18. I love
Michael: that mechanic thing. Know too, right? 'cause especially back then you [00:18:00] would have thought male oriented job.
Sara: I like that too. There's just like an air of competence around her. You know, like she could get you home in the rain and, you know, she could navigate a very tricky, something's up
Michael: with your carburetor, right? Lemme see if I can,
Sara: I'd like to consult with you on our unwritten constitution and whether or not the gasket is blown so and so.
There is this like, competence about her. She was able to be a part of the war and then Charles just told the story after her death. She, he read from one of her journals and talked about her, like leading a conga line back to the Buckingham Palace on VA day. You know, so she, she got to actually participate in.
The war effort and be a part of it. Not just be like above it, but also in it. And I think that becomes increasingly difficult and almost impossible once she actually assumes a throne. Like you're always a little bit above it. You're not. You're not. Yeah. I
Michael: mean, more than that, it's, I mean it's almost indentured servitude.
Yeah. Like you, like. What's interesting about this is thing number two and standing in her power is that for most of her life, she has almost no [00:19:00] choice. And what you're speaking to is where she did,
Sara: where she did, she exercised it. So that one they didn't particularly want her to do and she did it. And then the biggest one I think is choosing her mate.
So she meets Philip when she's 13 and she tells her father at some point along the way that not only like Daddy, I love him, but like daddy, I will only ever love him. Like he's the only man I could ever love. And so she draws that line pretty strongly and it was not a popular choice. And we'll talk about this later in their relationship.
But even her vows, she chose to say obey, which she was gonna be queen. And like part of the issue was he was a foreign prince, right? And so he renounced his citizenship, becomes English, and then she says that she's gonna obey him and the context of their vows. Even though we anticipate she'll eventually be queen,
Michael: I love that.
Like the marriage on its own mm-hmm. Is sort of astonishing. Yeah. Right. That, that it's a choice. That there is a kind of interesting negotiation of shared power. Yeah. And support and [00:20:00] love. Mm-hmm. Like, I mean, above all else, I really do think that No, you strip away all the. Romantic LIOs, or whatever that word was in the first line of the obituary.
And between the two of them, you see a kind of durable commitment, and I think the broader theme that you're pointing to of where there is choice mm-hmm. In her life, because there's a lot of places where it's stripped away. You see her exercise, that choice and you see mm-hmm. A real actualized human emerge out of all of the constraints that come with being the monarch.
Yeah. You know? That's cool. Okay. Actually that's a pretty good segue into mine. I we're gonna say more about this later, so I want to be a little bit careful about this, but I do wanna talk about the way the royal family is a symbol of family and the whole family story. Because one of the things I didn't quite realize in terms of why stories of Harry and Diana and Edward and Fergie and on and on, [00:21:00] like why they are so captivating is that I think every family is on some level dysfunctional, some more than others.
And maybe I need to be careful with that language. But I do think that family dynamics are always so interesting and how we understand ourselves. In terms of birth order, in terms of mirror reflections of our parents, in terms of how we collaborate or don't with our siblings and our cousins. E every one of us is asking questions about who are we really?
We go back to family as kind of an atomic root, right? Mm-hmm. And while the royal family was drawing boundaries around how much they wanted any of that to be known, I actually came away from all the research, kind of grateful that we have this very well documented family story to understand ourselves inside.
And at the center of it is a matriarch. Mm-hmm. The woman who is trying over and over [00:22:00] again to place principles and values first. Yeah. Because that's actually something I wanna do as a parent too. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna screw this up. And more than anything, I think that there is a kind of modeling. Here. Mm-hmm.
Like for the family itself. And I like that that toggles between the obligations of the throne and the actual family that exists. I, I don't think I'm saying anything other people hadn't thought of, but as somebody who was previously disinterested in the royal family, yeah. I came away like, I'm glad we have this public story of a family because we need stories like that so that we can reflect back on ourselves.
So it's a very famous eng gravy kind of thing.
Sara: No, I think so too. And I mean, as a girl growing up in, you know, east Tennessee or in the, in the US. There were not a lot of women in power that were visible to me. Yeah. Other than Queen Elizabeth and then Margaret Thatcher when she was there. So I think we had female senators at the time, but if you had like a place mat of Presidents, they were like all white men, you know?
And so it just didn't, [00:23:00] there wasn't anyone to watch. And not only that, she was also a mother. You know, she had four kids and I mean, she had, yeah. You know, tremendous privilege. Lots of nannies, lots of help. Even just doing the job through four pregnancies is, uh, kind of remarkable.
Michael: Four pregnancies is no joke.
Right? Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
Sara: Exactly. Yeah. And then you see her interacting with other women in power, you know, Margaret Thatcher, uh, all the way to Liz Trust, I
Michael: mean, is, is this your thing? Number four though? Her femininity?
Sara: Yeah. Like her presence of female leadership on a world stage. You know, like that wasn't, yeah.
And I do think, I think it is likely the type of thing that could have Sped England toward being able to elect women. I don't think that she and Margaret Thatcher were that similar, but I do think that
Michael: that's an interesting thought that actually does. I hadn't thought about it that way.
Sara: Yeah. When you give women the opportunity to succeed and show their confidence, then it not only inspires girls to know that they can do it, but it also breeds confidence.
Michael: So is that thing number four her? That's four. [00:24:00] That's four. Yeah.
Sara: Uh, why don't you take number
Michael: five?
Sara: Five for me was the horses. It ties in a little bit to her other things, but it was clearly this passion of hers that she was able to sustain.
Michael: Passion is almost an understatement. I mean, it, it was almost like second calling,
Archival: horse racing was her one little pastime, I think.
And. It was actually through a genuine just love of the horse. I think riding was part of childhood, but I don't know when the racing exactly began, but I mean, racing has been a part of the royal family for a very, very long time. It was very difficult for her to escape from that. Amazingly hectic.
Schedule. We were just lucky to have a little bit of her time doing something that she genuinely enjoyed.
Sara: I think it was like the Untaken path. I mean, she won the Royal Ascot in 2014. She kind of took away the big prize, and that is one of the most genuine smiles you'll see on the Queen. And then there even some earlier ones where she's like dashing down to [00:25:00] see results.
I think she came out with like 24 of those prizes and it sounds like she was quite good at it.
Michael: Yeah. You know what I also like about the horse thing is, is so I don't have any special connection with horses. They're beautiful animals, but I didn't grow up around them. I do have a close friend who has talked a little bit about equine therapy.
Mm. Yeah. That, do you know much about this? Or have you met people who have done this? No.
Sara: I haven't, I'm familiar with it only because similarly I have like two degrees from people who love it and I'll swear about it. Yeah. Well,
Michael: but that kind of makes sense that this is an animal. You could get all poetic about it, but a kind of, you know, spirit and heart and presence.
Like that species represents something that she connects with. And then to see it running at top speed and to like get interested in the heritage and the breeding and like all of the training. I mean, you, it's not hard actually to sort of understand why she would have deeper emotional connection. Oh yeah.
Horses and the sport. All right, let's recap. [00:26:00] So number one, I said symbol of stability slash monarch envy as an American. Okay. Number two, you said, uh, self-determination. Mm-hmm. Uh, standing in her power. And number three, I, I talked a little bit about symbol of family and how helpful it is for all of us to have a story of function and dysfunction on display so that we can understand ourselves.
Mm-hmm. And number four, woman leadership. And number five, horses. And a passion and love for horses. Let's take a break. Okay, category three, one love. In this category, Sarah and I will each choose one word or phrase that characterizes this person's loving relationships. First, we will review the family life data.
She married Prince Philip in 1947. She was 21. He was 26. They remained married for 73 years until his death in April of 2021. She died one year later. Roughly four children. I can't believe I'm actually doing this for the Queen, but I need to go through it. But four children. She had Charles when she was 22, princess Ann when [00:27:00] she was 24.
Then there's a kind of interesting gap, Andrew at 33 and then Edward at 37. I'm gonna freeze frame it there because there's actually infinite places we could take this. What did you have for your one word or phrase?
Sara: I went for strength and stay and I just took it from the Queen. It was how she described Philip after his death that he had been her strength and stay and I, I toyed with the Le Man of Life and Limb because it, it is very interesting to me that.
In the wedding ceremony, she says she's gonna obey, and in the coronation, he literally has to bend a knee. And so I think every relationship has power dynamics, and I think every relationship has external pressures on it. What I think is. So amazing about them is that they were able to do it not inside their relationship.
I'm not pretending that it was perfect. No. But what do we
Michael: see, right? Because above you strip everything else away and I see love here. Oh yeah. Yeah. You know, and I [00:28:00] see some is greater than individual parts. I mean, I've brought this up on the show a few times, but my favorite adage about in a committed relationship is that love is not staring deeply into each other's eyes.
It's staring forward in the same direction. Yes. And I think they both felt a deep sense of purpose and duty, and they understood the assignment or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. And they were together in it. And I love the sort of like seven decades and died within a year of each other. Yeah. You know,
Sara: I mean, there are also these moments, like the image of her mourning, Philip.
Sitting alone in that church at his funeral is, it was just so heartbreaking. And there was so much mourning going around across the world because of Covid. That's why she was so isolated in that moment. Yeah. But the fact of the matter is you didn't feel like she was alone for most of that rain. You know?
Like Yeah. He felt like he had, he was sometimes a ladies man by reputation and he was like, God only knew what he was gonna say. And I, and I do think when you watch. How that relationship affects [00:29:00] other relationships. It gets a little trickier because I think,
Michael: yeah,
Sara: what every other member of the Royal family wanted was to be able to like choose their own love-based relationship.
I mean, you can watch this family and think, oh, I can see how these things may have been arranged for a while.
Michael: Yeah. Right, right, right. I don't know if we need to talk about the Crown. I kind of feel like we kind of do the TV show, the next show, I think.
Sara: Yeah, I think we can reference That's how. I mean, generations like ours and below are mo A lot of that's how
Michael: they've experienced this story.
Sara: Yeah. Particularly a lot of the backstories, you
Michael: know? Right. And while it's like there are clear dramatizations and you know, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story. Mm-hmm. There are what seem to be elements of truth, you know, as best we can tell. Right. I don't know. You wanna compare and contrast the tabloids, the crown, and what actually happened inside.
I don't know how much divergence there is and I dunno, I dunno how much that matters. If part of, you know, what we're trying to do is understand ourselves, but there is a books available
Sara: by Robert Lacey
Michael: [00:30:00] if you'd
Sara: like to check.
Michael: Goodness. Are there, I I like, this is the fricking problem with this episode. It is impossible to know what is the central text here.
Sara: Well, no, no, I mean, I I to your point, it's one of the most managed reputations ever. So the, the story is very managed, very packaged, and I. We're gonna have drips and drabs of additional potential truths. I mean, uh, well,
Michael: I mean this is also part of what's interesting is that's increasingly managed as mass media scales up.
She is there basically at the birth of television and the, the rise of broadcast media on into the age of social media that we're living in now. So the management challenge at how we deal with celebrity, like her lifetime kind of correlates with the rise of that kind of media scrutiny. Yes. Right. And, and exposure.
Okay. I'm gonna give you my one order phrase. I'm gonna use this opportunity to talk about Pembroke Welsh corgis. Bear with me. This is my metaphor. Okay. I wanna start this off by reading a little excerpt from a 2018 New York [00:31:00] Times article about corgis. The House of Windsor came by its first Corgi in 1933 when King George, I vi.
Then Dude of York acquired a puppy known as. Dookie for his family. I love that the puppy named is Dukey. Dukey was joined shortly thereafter by Jane, who was with the Royal family until 1944 when she was fatally struck by a car. Susan was given to Elizabeth later that year as an 18th birthday present, and according to an article in Vanity Fair, Elizabeth then a princess became so inseparable with her dog that she sneaks Susan with her and Prince Philip on their honeymoon in 1947.
So I wanna pause there. I love that she gets Susan when she turns 18, the sort of nominal age at which we transition from children into adults. Over the nearly 80 years since the Queen acquired Susan, she and her family have continued to breed dogs from Susan's lineage. The Queen has owned at least 30 Pembroke Welsh Corgis, all of whom have descended from Susan Willow, who died in 2018, was [00:32:00] believed to be part of the 14th generation.
Willow's death would signal the end of an era for the queen who reportedly stopped bringing Corgi sometime after the death of her mother in 2002. Alright, people probably know the queen has had corgis. I think the corgi is a ridiculous animal. I think that you, this is, this is one of those dogs that largely exists, or at least before I did the research and went down this quirky rabbit hole.
I thought this was one of those dogs that people mostly bred so they could point and laugh at because it's a, it's, it's a short little funny animal. And, but, so I did a little more digging and what I learned was a few things that I think kind of like the horse thing actually, you begin to understand the queen a little bit better herding.
I did not realize this short little animal. Was a hurting dog. Like is, is meant there to like gather everybody up. Okay. Yeah. Strong and compact. They are a hard worker apparently. Yeah. They have a lot of determination. I see that in the queen, small frame, big presence. So they quietly command a lot of authority in a male dominated [00:33:00] system.
They're very bright, they're intelligent dogs. They're also quite independent and stubborn. They don't rely on approval. They stand to their own ground. They are vigilant, watchdogs, they're never off duty and above all else, they're loyal and loving. And even if it didn't always look warm, because I think there are some accusations that the queen can be a little bit emotionless.
Their commitment is not within question. So I'm like, I see the queen in this, in this breed of dog, I see a kind of corgi, you know, simpatico. But also, I don't know, maybe this is the last thing. And also like looking to something higher, following a higher calling, and understanding that that's, you know, the purpose for you.
Yeah, I mean, if there's anything I'm envious of here, Sarah, it is the idea that you're born with a certain kind of destiny and dogs, all breeds seem to be born to a certain kind of destiny. That's, yeah,
Sara: that's interesting. I mean, I think it's the softest way for you to say. She could also have a bite.
Right. Just so, [00:34:00]
Michael: right, right. Yeah. And that sign, one of her footmen might spike the food bowl with gin and whiskey. Yeah. I can't believe somebody actually did that. Like I'm gonna get a, I mean, I
Sara: don't think it's inconsistent. 'cause to the same point, like we were saying, like her self-determination, her ability to choose her mate and to be able to do the work that she wanted to do are liberties that the rest of the family are not fully afforded.
And then she has a limited amount of capital that she has to spend. She can build more capital the more she keeps like all the other corgis in line. Mm-hmm. Um, but at some point, if she has to bite, she has to be the one who makes the call. And so this might be where we upset some people in England. But I mean, one of the big criticisms, oh, this
Michael: whole episode is gonna upset people.
Yeah, that's true. That's true.
Sara: But like I, that was the complaint about the choices she was making in regard to. Protecting people from the media. She would have to spin capital, protecting the reputations of some at the expense of protecting others. You know? So the idea was that she was. Protecting Andrew, but not protecting [00:35:00] Megan.
And there like begins the rift. She was not going far enough to rehabilitate Camilla, or she was not doing all these things that mean all this is unmanageable.
Michael: I mean, I think what's interesting here and the a deeper theme I think of the, or at least I hope with the conversation so far, is it's very easy to look at the queen and her destiny and being born into royalty and say, here's all the ways in which this person is absolutely nothing like me.
It is to me a much more interesting and novel exercise to ask the exact opposite question, how is this person more like me than I've realized? Yeah. Right. No, that's true. That's true. And I think that we are all thinking about our reputation. We are all thinking about how do I support my family but also look good Yeah.
You know, to the world and what is my higher purpose and what is my North star in all this? Yeah. And it is about representing some core value that can be elusive and a little bit mysterious.
Sara: Yeah, I
Michael: think we're all dealing with that. Yeah. Um, so we're all corgis. Sarah,
Sara: I actually love that. I know that you're also a dog lover.
[00:36:00] So I, I can see I'm a dog lover. I can see that, um, playing. I, I and I,
Michael: maybe I'll bring a Corgi into my life. That's okay. I mean, I'm all for it,
Sara: but please name it Dookie if you do.
Michael: Next category. This is the most ridiculous one of the episodes so far, net worth in this category. We will each write down our numbers ahead of time. We'll talk a little bit about our reasoning. Then we'll look up the net worth number in real time to see who's closest. And finally, we'll place the queen on the famous and gravy net worth leaderboard.
So I am gonna say I did not look into it because one of the documentaries I watched, there was actually a wonderful rant about how. The question is impossible to answer. Yeah,
Archival: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's terribly hard to work out just how rich the queen is. It's very hard to separate the goods chapels, which are very valuable ones that she is custodian of for her life.
She, you can't sell any of these [00:37:00] things, so I don't think that should be included. In her assets. The stamp collection of Buckingham Palace is worth millions.
Michael: So I had one consideration coming into this on the famous eng gravy net worth leaderboard. Our number one is Ross Perot with 4.1 billion, and number two is Jimmy Buffett with about 1 billion.
Then it drops off to Elizabeth Taylor at 600 million. I needed the queen to be above all of them. I needed a new net worth leader. That's all I cared about, which is how I came up with this number. And that's all the thinking I did.
Sara: I accidentally stumbled on a number. Okay. Sarah Murphy wrote down 650 million, and Michael Osborne wrote down $6 billion.
Michael: Okay. As best we can tell is around $500 million. I know. Okay. So I was way off by five and a half billion. God [00:38:00] bless it. I think it, she's not gonna
Sara: take the number one spot. She Okay. I know. I know. I. I had seen a number around there by accident, and I upped mine because I, I just feel like there's a factor that is not covered.
I mean, it's a, it's a family estate situation where everybody has their own kind of pools of money. And I remember like Harry got money from his grandmother because he wasn't going to inherit the same amount from kind of the other estates. And so there are all these different waterfalls. Of money, and then I just don't know how they really have actual values on some of the properties.
Michael: I, I, I, I do not know how this number is calculated. Yeah. If I'm looking at Elizabeth Taylor, I can think about diamonds and movies. If I'm looking at Jimmy Buffett, I can think about concerts in Margaritaville Enterprises. If I'm looking at Ross Perot, I can look at all of his economic activity. I have no idea.
Yeah, how this which, but I can't believe it's only [00:39:00] 500 million. I'm a little disappointed. Okay, well, let's place her on the famous and gravy net worth leaderboard. So at 500 million, she is in position four. Above her is Ross Perot, Jimmy Buffet, and Elizabeth Taylor is just above her at 600 million. Just below her with half that amount is Kenny Rogers.
Tina Turner, and then below that is David Bowie. She is at a dinner table out by herself. Can you imagine
Sara: her surprise at arriving at that dinner table?
Michael: Yeah. And like just me. Just me and Jimmy Buffett and Ross Barot and, and Elizabeth Taylor are over there and just above Kenny Rogers. Oh, poor lady. Okay.
This yours. This leaves me frustrated. She is like, I
Sara: am never coming back to this party. Coming back. Alright.
Michael: Affair. I think I've been placed in the wrong place. Let's move on. Category five. Little Lebowski, urban achievers.
Archival: They're the little Lebowski, urban achievers said Yeah. The achievers. Yes. And proud we are.
Of all of [00:40:00] them
Michael: in this category, we choose a trophy, an award, a cameo, an impersonation, or some other form of a hat tip that shows a different side of this person. What'd you go with here?
Sara: Well, I think that all of Great Britain and much of the world was surprised when during the Olympics in 2012. Daniel Craig walked down the hallway of Buckingham Palace, turned into a large room, and the queen was there to greet him.
Archival: Mr. B.
Good evening. Good evening.
Michael: [00:41:00] This is Daniel Craig as James Bond.
Sara: That's right. Daniel Craig as James Bond. Yes. And I suppose at this time a queen in her mid eighties becomes a bond girl, so she walks down the hallway with her corgis and Daniel Craig gets on a helicopter. And then you see the Queen figure in the same dress that the Queen was in, in the Buckingham Palace and Daniel Craig coming like parachuting out of a helicopter.
And then a few minutes later you see the queen in the same dress coming down with Prince Philip to take her seat to watch the games.
Michael: Yeah, I'd forgotten about this moment. And she even had like a, a, a script adjustment, right? In a Oh yeah.
Sara: She like, she, she took ownership of this thing and like kept it a secret.
Like there are all these interviews. Like William said, when he found out about it, he was like, well, some expletives left in my mouth and like, I couldn't believe that I didn't know about this. Like, yeah. Yeah. This was really a state secret. It was very much under wraps and I love that it was her idea.
Like [00:42:00] they just came and said, would it be okay if we. Make it look as though you're jumping out of a helicopter and she's like, oh yeah, that would be great, but why don't we put me in it? You know, you're right. You guys can come to Buckingham Palace and like, she kind of got this,
Michael: like, she shaped it bigger
Sara: role.
Michael: Yeah. So, so what does this say to you as a Lebowski moment though? You know, because James Bond is probably the single most important pop culture property in fiction. Certainly the
Sara: most recognizable for, yeah.
Michael: Right. And so there is a kind of, I don't know, reality meeting, a fictionalized version that sort of, I don't know, it kind of almost acknowledges the kind of pop culture intersection of these real and fake people or something.
Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if I'm going anywhere with that, but I'm, I'm wondering why is this moment significant?
Sara: Because I think she has a sense of humor and she understands her place in the culture and mm-hmm. She knows that it can deliver a great moment. And you know, if you're 86, it's not like she thinks she'll be presiding over another Olympics.
Like this was kind of [00:43:00] Yeah, yeah. You know, time to go out with a bang and. To add a little fun to it. And I think she knew that people would be excited to see her Yeah. Participating in that.
Michael: Yeah. That's, I I love that. All right. Well, I went in a more ridiculous direction. Um, I, uh, I, I, this is too, too important of a moment for me.
I gotta bring up Naked Gun like this is because it was this movie that, I mean, most of my education, Sarah, comes from watching dumb movies in the eighties. Mm-hmm. And I don't think I realized that the monarchy was still in existence and that the England had a queen until Frank Drebin and Leslie Nielsen were hosting the Queen in this movie.
Here's why. It's not just an important moment in my life in terms of awareness of the queen and of the monarchy and royalty. The reason I really wanted to use this for Little Lebowski is that Frank Dre, Leslie Nielsen says something in that movie where he is like, [00:44:00] protecting the safety
Archival: of the queen is a task.
That's gladly accepted by police law. Or no matter how silly the idea of having a queen might be to us as Americans, we must be gracious and considerate hosts.
Michael: And I've never gotten that idea outta my mind that this whole thing is kind of ridiculous. Yeah. That the fact that they are clinging to genetic lineage, that this person deserves special treatment in this country, it is fundamentally silly to me.
You know? And it's, and it's, and that's how Naked Gun presents it. And while it is made a joke of, there's actually some kind of truth that like this whole fricking thing is silly that this still exists. I made a case earlier in the episode that I actually kind of wish we had a Monarch. Yeah. Not. Because I want to a whole bunch of US tax dollars to go towards one family that gets special treatments.
But I do think that there is a case for anointing people to be symbolic Representations of the nation state, the case against is [00:45:00] also pretty strong. What are we doing here? Why is so much fanfare and attention and resources going towards this institution that does not hold up to scrutiny on any, on any way, shape, or form?
And it's all captured for me in 1989. Naked Gun.
Sara: Well, I think the part that's enviable is that it's bifurcated. So if mayors and senators and representatives and presidents and First Ladies didn't have to do all of the ceremonial. Events and could be brushing up on policy like a Prime Minister might be while that's going on, right.
Then there's some function to that. That is nice. But no, I agree. I do love the queen. I enjoy the royal family. I. I get a little bit sad about the brothers not getting along, like all of that stuff. Right. But I, and I do think they missed an opportunity with diversifying the family on their way to a [00:46:00] pluralistic society.
But I also, well,
Michael: the time might tell, I mean, who knows? Yeah, yeah. You know, I, I, I think what I'm hearing is sort of like division of labor. Yeah, exactly. The president has to, in of the United States, has to be the commander in Chief. Chief Diplomat has to lead a policy agenda, has to represent some sort of moral core value.
I mean, the same thing happens in marriage. We are forced to wear a lot of hats that if it's too many, can create tension. So there is something to be said for let's cleave off the pageantry portion and just stick it all in this one family.
Sara: Yeah. But there are also weekly meetings with. The Prime Minister.
Right?
Michael: Yeah. She was a confidant in an interesting way, and, and I like is almost Prime Minister's anointed therapist.
Archival: Yeah. No, that's probably right.
Michael: Yeah. All right, so anyway, naked gun, Frank Rein the Queen. Let's take another break. Okay. All right. Category six words to live by. In this category, Sarah and I will each choose a quote.
[00:47:00] These are either words that came outta this person's mouth or was said about them. I've got something I'll share.
Sara: Okay.
Michael: This kind of relates to the animal theme we've been talking about. Okay. Whether it's horses or corgis or whatever she said. I have a feeling that in the end,
Archival: probably the training is, is the answer to a great many things.
You can do a lot if you, if you're properly trained. And I hope I have been,
Michael: this is a moment of sort of unusual self-reflection that came from a, a BBC one clip in 1992. She had been talking with a soldier as the sort of the context of, of this particular clip. The reason I chose it is that one of the things that's interesting about this life is a kind of nature versus nurture conversation.
We've talked, talked a lot about what she's born into. Like there, there is no more in, in one sense hitting the lottery with being born into this family. The big question is, what do you. Do with that. How do you play that card? And I really like her. Among other things, I admire her, her discipline that can read and probably [00:48:00] appropriately so as emotionless.
That's sort of the interesting tension of the job, is that she's gotta be very, very careful about any kind of emotional Yeah. Expression. But I also admire somebody who understands that that's what they have to do. So I, I like, and I like this idea of training, that we can be trained into a lot of different things and that the possibilities for what we can become and the kind of discipline we impose on ourselves, that itself is also limitless.
Yeah. So kind of a weird quote, but that's the one I went with. Yeah. So, all right. So what did you have for this category?
Sara: Mine is, I have to be seen to be believed. So I think my reading on the context was that she was referring to the fact that she like needed to go out on tour. She needed to be out amongst.
To the public in order for people to care about what she had to say and that they needed to be able to relate to her, they needed to be able to have some type of tie to her. And so I think it's interesting because to your point, like this constitutional monarchy is holding out in a way that others are [00:49:00] not.
And then in terms of, you know, within the podcast and how we look at this. I look at the Queen and I'm like, there is definitely a thing. It's too much fame and boy does she have it, you know? Yeah, of course, of course. I mean, yeah. There's mean
Michael: like, look, we occasionally on the show we've argued about who's the most famous person of all time.
I don't think that's a question anymore. I mean, I feel like the Queen gets the award for most famous dead celebrity on famous engrave.
Sara: Oh, yeah. There's, I just think it, it's. So much fame and recognition and, but in her family, I mean, it is dangerous. The fame can be a threat to your power and, and for ancestors, you can lose your head for this fame.
So, yeah, I,
Michael: I mean, my thing number three was the story of the family and that I'm grateful that we have a public story. The other side of that is I have not, and I hope I never will experienced fame and celebrity. My favorite quote on this, I think Derek Thompson on plain English said, what's so funny about fame is that everybody who's tasted it gives [00:50:00] it a one star review.
Yet we all seem to be clamoring for it. I think it's like a restaurant that's got a line out the door that has terrible food. It's not hard to imagine why. Loss of privacy and so forth. But what that really means is loss of your own story. If the press is telling a different story about who you are mm-hmm.
And how we understand you and what matters here, then the way that gets into your head of like, well, is that, are they right? And is that who I am? Is this the true story? And it's not. Yeah. You know, it is. It is always a fabricated story. So what I hear in that quote, I have to be seen to be believed. She's kind of talking about the audience there, but I think she's also talking about herself.
Archival: Yeah.
Michael: Or it could be, it could be read that way. Yeah. And it's such a statement of what fame and celebrity is. Great one, Sarah. Okay. Category seven, man in the Mirror. This is fairly simple. Did this person like their reflection? Yes or no? This is not about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment.
Sara: So I think it varied over time. I think for the bulk of her life, which would've [00:51:00] been her midlife, I'm afraid the answer may have been no.
Michael: So, wow. Wow. That's interesting. Okay. So how, how did you arrive at that?
Sara: So she steps on the world scene really while her father is still sick, and then she is in power at 26, 27.
She's gonna be constantly compared to her younger self. I also think that in that time, before Margaret was kind of the sparkly sister, and just from what I know about two daughter families, they tend to assign each other roles, right? And so I think that in her mind, Margaret was probably the pretty one and she was, you know, something else.
So I think that that may have stuck around. And then I think anyone who has to look at that many pictures of themselves, I think would be kind of tough over time. Yeah. Yeah, just, I mean, we are talking about four pregnancies, sleep deprivation, and a lot of. Age, I mean, a lot of stress. Yeah. And a
Michael: lot and a lot of responsibility in many facets of life.
Sara: And then kind of in the midst of midlife, she and [00:52:00] her kind of fashion designers really kind of come up with a profile, which is like the coat and the hat. And she increasingly just wears these bright colors. They almost like draw attention away from her features. She's more about mm-hmm. Like being spotted as the queen.
Michael: So it's almost a diversion away from
Sara: Yeah, yeah. The, the likeness, the body drawing her eyes and her facial expressions and her presence. And then I just think to the extent that older women become a little invisible in the public eye. I think she wanted to be. Seen as a person, and I'm not sure how that played out.
Michael: This is a good argument, Sarah and I see the case for No. I mean, I went with a pretty confident yes, but it was a whole different line of thought. Okay. Which is the sense of purpose. Oh yeah. That when I look in the mirror, if I ever, I'm never gonna throw this question back on myself. What do I feel like about my own reflection?
Because of course it's both. Some days I look in the mirror like, hell yeah, great. And then other, and then other days I'm like, uh, no, no Uhuh. [00:53:00] Or trying to aggregate on balance over the course of a lifetime as a body ages and goes through all its natural stages. If we're lucky. I went with yes. Because I do think that the great gift she got is a sense of purpose.
Mm. And if you have that, if any encounter with your own image, whether it's a photograph or in the mirror, raises questions of self-doubt or self-judgment, you can always go back to, but maybe it's about something more than me. I, I mean, I feel like no matter what we're doing in life, if we're interested in claiming the upward staircase mm-hmm.
We're always trying to go into that question of, I'm here still on earth in this life because it's about more than me. And she had that more than most people ever get. So it's a, I think both things that we're saying are true.
Sara: Yeah. And I don't want it, I don't think it's a comment on like beauty especially, I just think it's, I didn't think so.
Yeah.
Archival: Yeah.
Sara: Yeah, I just think that there is something different about being like a [00:54:00] woman in the public eye and having to present as something, and I just think there is a point at which, yeah, the burden
Michael: of that.
Sara: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm afraid it may have become a caricature at some point,
Michael: so Totally. Both things are true.
All right. No one asked category eight coffee, cocktail or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity.
Sara: I want cocktail, her like, drink of choice. Is this dubnet and gin? I'm not, I'm not gonna do Jen with the queen because I just feel like clear liquor, you're thirsty and then you're drunk.
Like it's not a good thing. So, so I, I'm not gonna, I need more of this.
Michael: Oh no, I need no more of this.
Sara: Yeah. Right. Yes. I was thinking if I, if I could choose my setting, I would actually meet her in Balmoral and I would want whiskey and I'd just be like, whatever you have open, because it's gonna be better than what's at my place.
Michael: Well take the house whiskey,
Sara: whatever the house whiskey is, I'll take the house. Whiskey, no ice. I'd just be like, yeah.
Michael: [00:55:00] And what's the conversation like? What do you wanna talk to her about?
Sara: Well, I'm hoping she, like we've just come from like the stables and then I would just ask her about her, some of her favorite memories there.
So evidently at the beginning of the war, before they even went to Windsor, they started out there and I'd talk about her relationship with her parents because I hadn't really appreciated until I started doing some of the reading, how much separation she had from them. So like, you know. Yeah. You know, so they go off 'cause they go on tours, they like, she stayed back when they went to Australia there, there was a lot more separation than I had realized.
And then the blitz, it was a very specific choice to keep them within the United Kingdom because a lot of people of their means were sending their kids to Canada. And that's why she did her first radio address
Michael: as a teenager, right? Yeah. Was a teen. It was
Sara: like she was like 14. Trying to encourage those folks and maybe put some pressure on the US to get involved in the war.
Archival: All of our children who are still at home think continually of our friends and relations who have gone [00:56:00] overseas. But I am sure that you two are often thinking of their old country. I know you won't forget us.
Sara: I just, I would love to know what that was and what her memories are of the time before she thought she was going to be queen.
Like where her, yeah. Expectations for life kind of diverged. I feel like the rest of it I can read about. I don't know, 10 or 15 years. No, but
Michael: those are the most interesting years often, and they're the most mysterious years as we develop and grow and become adults.
Sara: Yeah, exactly.
Michael: I love it. All right. Well, I also went whiskey.
I'll take this one in Buckingham Palace. I think one of the more interesting stories, I know this is well documented, this conversation with Michael Fagan, who breaks into the Buckingham Palace in the eighties, and there is this like mysterious 10 minute conversation between them. Mm-hmm. And, and the way she responded to that and, and certainly the way it's dramatized in the crown told me that she could actually probably have a very engaging conversation.
And, uh, so I want truth serum. I would actually like to ask the question, [00:57:00] have you ever entertained the idea that maybe there shouldn't be a monarchy? I mean, I'd like to have an honest, like, just, just between you and me, nobody else has to like have this out. But isn't this all a little silly and ridiculous?
Doesn't Frank Drumin have a point? And again, and I don't know if she's ever. Had that thought enter her mind. She might say. Of course not. I mean, she does seem, among other things, very talented at repression. So, so I feel like let's have another whiskey and let me push you on this question, Liz. Yeah, let's, let's get, let's get into it.
This is the scene that I lilette.
Archival: Yeah. Yeah.
Michael: And, and, and I'm like, and I'm, and I would do it with an open-ended look. I don't have an agenda. I'm not trying to make the case. I'm just saying don't the people who don't want you to be here, don't they kind of sorta have a point. I mean, don't you kind of see where this is coming from?
A little bit. And I, I'd just, I'd like to talk it out. Yeah, talk it out.
Sara: Yeah. I think you should actually run [00:58:00] your Corgi theory by her. I would be like, how do you,
Michael: I think we've arrived category nine, the final category, the Vander beak named after James Vander beak, who famously said, and varsity blues. I don't want your life.
In that varsity blue scene, James VanDerBeek makes a judgment that he does not want a certain kind of life based on just a few characteristics. So here Sarah and I will form a rebuttal to anyone skeptical of how Queen Elizabeth II lived. Start with the counterarguments, why you would not want this life.
I think it's actually not so complicated. Kind of to your point number two, there's a lot of places where there's no agency and no choice. Yeah. And that feels imprisoning. Mm-hmm. Even if it is a velvet and very plush imprisonment, there are ways in which this is a life that has no free will or less free will, and that was decided.
Before you even came out of the womb.
Sara: And she is put in like really difficult, awkward situations. America invites her over to the [00:59:00] bicentennial, takes her to Thomas Jefferson's home, get, makes her take a tour of the rotunda at the University of Virginia and is like, haven't we done great since we like cut of ties us.
Yeah,
Michael: exactly. You know your forefathers? Yeah. Remember
Sara: that war you guys lost? Yeah. And then like she has to shake hands with a leader of hin Fein after, I mean that who was basically responsible. Yeah. That Northern Ireland death of Lord Mountain Batten. Like she has all of these moments where. She is clearly just like choking back bile to try to like help things move forward politically or geopolitically.
It's
Michael: a lot to ask of a person.
Sara: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Michael: It's a lot. I think that's your point, and that's, these are, these are variations of the theme, but very little room for free will and a lot to ask of a person. Heavy lies the crown. All right. So what are the arguments for wanting this life? I mean, I, my number one, I'm just going to push it because I believe so strongly in it having a purpose.
Sara: Oh yeah. And an amazing one. You know, like an [01:00:00] amazing one. Yeah. Right.
Michael: We all need that. Yeah. And we need to e even if we need to dilute ourselves into thinking we have one, we need to believe that we have a purpose. Yeah. I think that that is part of what makes the upward staircase journey available.
Sara: Oh, absolutely.
And then she had. A very strong faith, which I think, I mean mm-hmm. You would have to if you're accepting your manifest destiny.
Michael: Right? Of
Sara: course, yes. You had to actually feel a call to it, like she was that study for she, I think she defines not just an era for. Great Britain and the Commonwealth in the realm.
I think she defines an era in history like, I don't know how you, of course. Yeah. Don't have her included in that. And then she fell in love and got to choose him and yeah, they had this. Ridiculously rich life together. It wasn't all easy, but when you saw them together, you felt like there was an inside joke you weren't in on, and you were kind of glad for it.
You know, like,
Michael: yeah, [01:01:00] no, I mean, you're right. In as much as this is a life with very little choice and very little free will, the few places where she has it and she exercises it in the most important way. Exactly. Choosing a mate, and that is a real affirmative statement. Yeah. We could pile on obviously.
Why else might you want this life? Well, we don't, you know, there's the forest gum plan. I don't have to worry about money anymore. So it's one less thing.
Archival: That's
Sara: one last exhaust. And
Michael: even if it's not 6 billion, even if it's a year 500, nobody, nobody how to
Sara: count it. Right?
Michael: Right. But there appears to be enough.
There's so much that we we're not gonna go hungry. We'll be all right. I mean, I think that that's actually. Kind of all I need here, Sarah. So let's summarize the key points. So, uh, purpose and destiny. One B to that is faith, because I do think that the purpose is rooted in the idea of nation state, but it also has a sort of sister relationship with religious destiny.
Yeah. And connection with a cosmic power of some sort for her is rooted in her religion. [01:02:00] Then I think choice where it, it is made a free will to choose a mate and then don't have to worry about money anymore.
Sara: Yeah. The, the resources for your family, you can't protect them from everything, but you can protect them from hunger and some other things.
So like, you're, you're a little higher on the hierarchy of needs than, um, that's right. Yeah. Just, but I, I also think on the faith point, I, I think she did actually have a deep and abiding faith. Like she did not just go to church on Coronation Sunday and that type of thing. And I, I think that was. A powerful thing.
She also had long-term friends that were real friends. Yeah. And that's kind of the last piece and one that I think is difficult to keep because people would've known that she was power and wanted access to her. It would've been hard to know who her real friends were, but it appears from her biographies at least, that she had some of those.
So
Michael: the relational wealth, the The royal we Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So with that, James VanDerBeek. I'm Queen Elizabeth ii, and you want My life?[01:03:00]
Before we get to the speed round, if you enjoyed this episode of Famous and Gravy with Queen Elizabeth, you've got your phone in your hand right now. Please share the episode with a friend. Send it to somebody who could use hopefully a fun conversation about Queen Elizabeth. It helps us to grow the show.
Okay. Speed round plugs for past shows. So, Sarah, if people enjoyed the Queen Elizabeth episode, what else do you think they might enjoy from the famous Eng grave? The archives.
Sara: I think they could go back in the archives to Muhammad Ali. I think that episode right. Had a few kind of surprising nuggets that I still think about from time to time.
Yeah. And in my mind, in their field, they're both the greatest of all time.
Michael: I mean, it's, it's real 20th century history. It is in a way, right. And kind of essential figures of the 20th century. This is maybe a cop out. I'm gonna go episode 93, American Royalty, Elizabeth Taylor, another Liz, another queen of sorts.
There's some fun compare and contrast with how we [01:04:00] understand celebrity, how we understand women leadership and power. And Elizabeth Taylor was higher on the north leaderboard for whatever reason, um, which I still don't totally believe. Here is a little teaser for the next episode of Famous in Greek. At his peak, he reached out in his writing to a generation made cynical by the Vietnam War and Watergate, and that was prepared to respond to his visceral honesty.
Not Norman Mailer. Not Norman Mailer. Famous and Gravy. Listeners, we'd love hearing from you. If you wanna reach out with a comment question or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels.
Famous and Gravy is created by Amit Kippur and me, Michael Osborne. This episode was produced by Ali Ola, with Original music by Kevin Str. Thanks and see you next [01:05:00] time.