112 Mamba Mentality transcript (Kobe Bryant)
Michael: [00:00:00] Famous and gravy listeners, Michael Osborne here. I've got two things to say before we start today's episode. First, we could really use your help growing the show and there's a very simple thing you can do. Leave a review for Famous and Gravy on Apple Podcasts. If you're listening on Apple, you just scroll down on our show page, tap the Stars, and write a few words.
These reviews help feed Apple's algorithm and help new listeners to find our show. The second thing is if you yourself are interested in starting your own podcast and you wanna learn about how we built Famous Eng Gravy, we would love to have a conversation. Our email, as always is hello@famousenggravy.com.
So two things. Please write a review, and if you're fantasizing about your own show, please reach out. That's it. Thanks again. Let's get to it.
Sara: This is Famous and Gravy biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at [00:01:00] hello@famousenggravy.com. Now here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.
This person
Michael: died 2020, age 41. He won an Academy Award in 2018. The first African American to win for best animated short. Oh my goodness. I should know this. And I don't.
Archival: It's Chadwick Moseman. I wanna say Betty White, but I think it, it's definitely odd
Michael: white. She didn't win for being the first African American to win.
It's, that's a good guess. Not actually. It's an awful guess. That's an awful guess. He was fueled by a seemingly endless. US reservoir of self-confidence.
Archival: God, A 41 is so young. Self-confidence. Ah, I have no idea.
Michael: Was this Shaquille O'Neal? I don't know his name. He's a superhero. He gave himself the nickname Black Mamba.
Oh, Kobe Bryant. Oh, that is, uh, Kobe Bryant.
Archival: Black Mamba Kobe Bryant.
Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Kobe Bryant. [00:02:00]
Archival: I just dream dreams is, uh, they should be pure. And I, I think a lot of times, you know, when we're born into this world, we actually wind up going backwards. And it seems like the more we mature, the more responsible our dreams become.
And the more governors we put on ourselves and our ability to dream. And so it's not a matter of pushing beyond your limitations or expectations. It's really a matter of protecting your dreams, protecting your imagination. That's really the key. And when you do that, and the world just seems limitless.
Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne. And I'm Sarah Murphy. And on this show we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves [00:03:00] today?
Kobe Bryant died 2020, age 41. I am so happy to once again be joined by my friend Sarah Murphy, who was supposed to be on the show five years ago, and we got her back on recently for the Queen. Sarah, how are you today?
Sara: I'm doing great. I'm so excited to be here.
Michael: So you and I were looking at the roster and saying, all right, who might we do?
And you pushed for Kobe Bryant. I think the first thing I want to ask you is what is your relationship to sports and basketball overall? Were you an athlete? Are you a. Big NBA fan, like where are you in terms of sports fandom?
Sara: I was a truly unremarkable basketball player from from third to ninth grade and I've been a lifelong.
And then you went
Michael: into retirement? Yeah, basically I had to.
Sara: I retired from basketball from Model N, which will give you some. I have always loved the game and I still love the game. And I did actually get to one Lakers game and [00:04:00] Kobe's Farewell Tour.
Michael: Here's the famous Eng Gravy thing I want to talk about before we get into the episode.
Sports figures are kind of hard because athletes are in such a different unachievable category that I think the real challenge of this episode for me, and the reason I ask this question about your relationship to sports is how do we do the famous and gravy thing where we turn this back on ourselves?
I guess the other reason I wanted to ask is that there are listeners of this show who are not big sports fans, and I wanna make the case that you should care about this story even if you don't care about basketball or the Lakers or sports in general.
Sara: Oh yeah. I just think that to the point, are there things we didn't know in the case of Kobe Bryant, the answer is absolutely yes.
Michael: Sports is a metaphor and it allows us to deal with questions of how we deal with adversity. Mm-hmm. Right. And I think that that's true on and off the court here. Yeah. Okay, let's get right to it. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Kobe [00:05:00] Bryant, who made the leap directly from high school to a glittering 20 year career with the Los Angeles Lakers that established him as one of basketball's all time greats was among nine people, killed in a helicopter crash on Sunday north of Los Angeles.
Bryant was 41.
Sara: You may be surprised given that I was such a tough grader for the Queen, but I really liked this for the context in which it was written.
Michael: Same here. I thought given that this was sudden, I actually think, boy, this gets at a lot. So what stood out to you when reading this initially?
Sara: I appreciated that they gave us the leap because you definitely see him, you know, on an AlleyOOP.
Like 10 to the goal
Michael: made the leap is a great metaphor from high school to to college and like it obviously that's doing some double work. Yeah.
Sara: And glittering is. Like going glitter. It's perfect. I know because it's so la I mean you can kind of like see the [00:06:00] Staples Center literally glittering for him and it was a 20 year career.
You think about a 20 year career in basketball and anything that is that competitive to have had that type of sustained success is amazing. It has Los Angeles, Lakers 'cause he is the fabric of the city. He is the EW of that. Organization like that was beautiful. That was odd.
Michael: Well, and that is an unbelievable rarity too.
I'm not sure non basketball fans know how unusual it is for a player to be with one organization for their whole career, much less a 20 year career. I mean, that's not true of Kareem Shaq. That's not true of Michael Jordan. It is such a rarity. It is really rare to be with a single city for the duration of your career.
Absolutely. Well, and I think all time great is important. So I, I'm a big Bill Simmons fan. Mm-hmm. And he has this big book of basketball and he is got a pyramid of the greatest players of all time. Kobe is number nine on that list. So Michael Jordan, number one, LeBron number [00:07:00] two, bill Russell, number three, and on and on.
That is how good Kobe is. He is in the top 10 of best basketball players of all time.
Sara: Oh yeah. And I, I mean, for some people he is absolutely the best and they just say it's a. Established that he is one of basketball's all time grades. Yeah. The
Michael: word established is a good word there. Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
It's like we can
Sara: quibble about where he falls, but he is one of the best to ever play the game. So
Michael: yeah, it is actually very elegant how they got everything in there. Makes the leap high school to college.
Sara: He lived 41 years for 20 of those. He was an La Laker. This is why we know him. And then what I think that the writer does very well is then focus on the fact that this is a news story.
It brings it back to this is among nine people. The only thing I might do is say among nine people. Including his, including his daughter Gianna, a killed in a helicopter crash on Sunday north of Los Angeles.
Michael: That was the one consideration I add too. Yeah. It adds to the [00:08:00] story and I think that they had to think about that as they were writing this line.
I think it's the right decision, not
Sara: I think it is too, because one thing that I will give the family a lot of credit for is that they really did keep the loss of the nine people as central as they could. Throughout. I really think this is skillful. I just, um, so what's your score? I started with more of a seven.
I'm gonna go all the way to nine. Just 'cause like the degree of difficulty. Yeah. Yeah. I, I am gonna go ahead and go to nine. I just, 'cause I just think I'm going 10, I'm going 10.
Michael: There is like, I don't wanna just doll out. Perfect scores. This is a perfect score to me. Yeah, because I think it gets at subtext, I think all the considerations.
Do you think about his daughter? Do you think about some of the more unsavory parts of his story that can all come later? It's got enough intrigue of the story and it actually captures the scope. So nine out 10. 10 out. 10. Well done. Category two, five things I love about you here, Sarah and I will develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was [00:09:00] and how they lived.
I'm gonna kick us off with obsession, love and compound interest. Okay. So, um, okay. When you and I were getting ready for this episode, you were like, you need to watch this animated Short Dear Basketball. Mm-hmm. This was what Kobe won an Oscar for. It's this six minute. You know, animated love letter, and it's a really interesting one because it, it is written as if he is talking to a partner who's just passed away or something, right?
Like it is unbelievably heartfelt. He uses the word love that sort of like languages over the top, but it pulls out your heartstrings. It's got an almost innocence to it.
Archival: You gave a 6-year-old boy his lake a dream, and I'll always love you for it. I can't love you obsessively for much. This season is all I have left to give.
My body knows it's time to say goodbye, and that's okay. I'm ready to let you go.
Michael: As I've been thinking about [00:10:00] Kobe, I've been thinking about the difference between obsession and love. Obsession is usually not healthy, and love is. Part of the story here is that he was loved back by the game in some really interesting Oh yes.
Ways. I think one of the challenges for me in doing any sports figure is that I. Am never gonna be an elite athlete. And I feel like so much of the journey for an elite athlete is determined at a really young age. Like so much of this is genetics with Kobe, though, there is a work ethic like you've never seen.
Mm. Right. And this was sort of the compound interest point he said in a few interviews.
Archival: So if you get up at 10 in the morning, train for two hours, 12 to two, and start training again from six to eight, right? Those are two sessions. Right now, imagine you wake up at three, you train at four, you go four to six.
Now you're back at it again, nine to 11. Now all of a sudden you're back at it again, two to four, and now you're back at it again. You know, seven to nine. Look how much more training I [00:11:00] have done by simply starting at four. And as the years go on, the separation that you have with your competitors and your peers, doesn't matter what kind of work they do in the summer, they're never gonna catch up.
Michael: So he would find these advantages by like being a complete dedicated gym rat. And I guess like I wanted to revisit this question of. How are the rest of us, normal people supposed to interpret that kind of dedication? I mean, are we envious, Sarah of that kind of love obsession ability to have compound interest invested in self?
Sara: I'm not envious of the 4:00 AM alarm clock, but that's the problem is like that's what makes it so. Exceptional is that he did identify something that he says was not an early talent of his, like he had a father who was in the NBA, so there was exposure. There was clearly some athletic ability, but he said the first time he played, he was terrible.
You know, I guess. Right, right, right. His coaches back in Italy would disagree, but that was like his. His,
Michael: we should say, he grew up in Italy where his [00:12:00] dad was in the NBA. Yeah. And then ended up going to the European leagues was in Italy and a lot of Kobe's formative years up until eighth grade were in Italy.
And he speaks fluent Italian, which is, yeah, and Spanish fun talking about him. Yeah. That's
Sara: in terms of what did we not know? Most of you were not watching Kobe Bryant interviews thinking, oh, that guy's trilingual. But he was right.
Michael: He in fact was. So back to the exceptionalism question though. Yeah. I mean,
Sara: I envy the ability to identify something I want that badly that I would then motivate to pursue it.
For a lot of people, the harder thing is to either admit to themselves what it is they want or to mm-hmm. Identify what it is they want, and then to have the courage. To go about it.
Michael: Courage and obsession though. I
Sara: mean, I don't, oh, it, it was definitely obsession. Like when people asked him why he was gonna retire, he said, when I meditate, I usually had to take my thoughts away from basketball.
Michael: I do think it, it loved him back too. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think he learned about empathy, about relationships, about comradery. I think he learned about. [00:13:00] Presence. I think he learned deeper truths about himself because of an obsession that I think, is it obsession or is it love? I actually think it's love because it is giving back.
Yeah, no, it is. And that, that does teach me something about me. Absolutely.
Sara: I mean, sadly, it might teach me that I don't have that.
Michael: I don't have that either. Very few people do. So what can we learn from it? Well, I can learn at the margins, I can learn about the kind of, you know, James Clear atomic habits idea.
Mm-hmm. Of get up an hour earlier. Yeah. And you know, believe in compound interest as it relates to your own dedication behavior. What Kobe's story teaches is. Giving yourself over to an obsession. You can find feedback loops that do feed you internally. That's not just about pure competitiveness. Yeah.
That is about bigger life lessons. Yeah. The more I look at Kobe's relationship to the game, the more I saw that kind of stuff, which is why I wanted to lead off with obsession, love, and compound interest as my thing number one. Yeah. He has a a tremendous amount of genetic predisposition and. [00:14:00] Natural ability, but he becomes one of the all time greats because of the work ethic and because of his relationship to his own obsession, which I think is interesting and important for us.
Sara: Yeah, and he would even say, because the European game really focuses on these fundamentals. So like when you see people studying Kobe, they're studying not just. Like how he can jump that high. It's more like it's footwork, it's timing. It's like how he creates space. It's all these things that, that he can do because he has put in the time and he calls it this mamba mentality, this being like a killer.
What do you have for thing number two? I think it's that despite having been so obsessive about basketball for so long, that he still had this, in a sense, the Kobe who did not get to be right. So he would use words like a storyteller, which a lot of people will kind of mock as like a buzzword. But he said, I'm gonna.
I'm gonna tell stories and he gets the opportunity to take this poem and make it into [00:15:00] a short animated film. But he's Kobe Bryant, so he also has access to Disney's best animators. And oh, by the way, John Williams to work. It's not that, and out of the gate he wins an Oscar. And so there is this commitment to excellence that is untied to basketball, basically, like he basketball is the entree and.
It does create some opportunities, but he plays those walks through those very, very well. You know, like, do you see him investing in la? And that's part of why it loved him back. I mean, 20 years in one place to be that visible is. Really remarkable.
Michael: There's a creative parlay happening at the time of his death, right?
Yeah. He's launched podcasts. He's doing children's books. It's a orthogonal turn from where he left off basketball, but not really. The more you look at it, I mean, it sort of builds on my thing, number one, in terms of being loved back, that he [00:16:00] did acquire a certain amount of. Creative inspiration from the game that he is finding a new outlet for, which a lot of former athletes really struggle with that.
Archival: What you've managed to do with your new work is that you're finding ways to connect with what people care about, but you're taking it a step deeper. It's not just about sports, it's about life, right? It's about the metaphor that sports has for life. I mean, you know, sports is the greatest, greatest metaphor we have in terms of dealing with life.
'cause you know, even if you listen to music, music will give you guidance that you can then meditate on and think about how you would apply it. In sports, you have to apply it in the here and now. I mean, you're faced with challenges moment to moment, so you have to live it. And so that's why I'm creating these stories and creating this content.
Michael: Kobe is doing something at the time of his death that is actually categorically different.
Sara: Yeah. You know, it's a combination of his. Like personal pursuits outside of basketball, but also you see him coaching his daughter's team, like helping that through investing in women's sports, like making sure the [00:17:00] NBA, he's giving the WNBA visibility just through his presence and interest, you see him finding a new lane for himself and reaching back and building what got him there.
And it's sad to not. Have seen where that went.
Michael: Were you a fan of his during his time in the NBA?
Sara: Yes. So my Jersey number in junior high was 24. So we were in Yes. Before your retirement.
Michael: Yeah. I was not as a fan of the sport and I should say I don't pay as much attention to it as I did when I was younger.
Yeah. The heyday of the Michael Jordan Bulls was like how I came up, and I've always been a Spurs fan, and the Lakers and Spurs had rivalry. Mm. Kobe was a player that was easy to hate. Oh yeah. He was very polarizing. Right? People who loved him, loved him. People who hated him, hated him, which I think actually is a pretty good segue into my number three.
I wrote Hero to villain to hero again. There was such expectations for him. Th this was [00:18:00] at a time when a lot of players did not go right from high school to college, and it was before the one and done rule where you had to go to college for at least a year. He was cocky early on, but everybody had big expectations for him.
I remember an all star game from early on where he had this one. Behind the back dribble on a fast break. It was this one move where it was just this flash. Mm-hmm. That where everybody's like, that's all we've seen so far, but we're gonna see more. The story really changes for him in 2003 with the Colorado accusation.
I think we need to talk about that. Absolutely. Help me out here. Sarah, what do you think? People who don't know this story need to know about what happened.
Sara: So there was a 19-year-old woman working at a hotel in Colorado. She accused Kobe of rape, and he was married at the time, had one young daughter,
Michael: he's like 25 or so.
Mm-hmm.
Sara: And he, and he immediately or near, immediately admitted to adultery. But [00:19:00] his perspective was that it was a consensual encounter. There was both a criminal case and a civil case.
Michael: Yes. And the criminal case fell apart.
Sara: The, yeah, the, the criminal case fell apart because the accuser did not want to participate.
And there are lots of reasons to be concerned about his celebrity having had a role in that. But it, there was a civil case that was settled out of court, and this is all going on like during the Western Conference finals that year. Like it's in the middle of his, it happens over the summer. Yeah. But it follows him the entire.
Year. So Vanessa, yeah, Kobe's wife. Vanessa ends up having to do kind of those like good wife politician's, wife press conferences where she is like supporting her husband. And yeah, you're kind of watching to see if the marriage is gonna survive. Ultimately what happens is he issues a public statement.
Michael: Yeah, he says, although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she [00:20:00] did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.
Some people call this a. Non-apology. Apology and that it's sort of legalese positioning and other people view it as public accountability and him trying to say that we had different experiences of this situation and there's so much we don't know here. Yeah. But this does follow him around for the rest of his life.
Sara: Oh, it absolutely does. I mean, so the only, the only real issue for me is. Like what were the, and the things that I don't know or what made her make the decision to not pursue criminal charges? So from, yeah, like her perspective. And it's very possible that it was not the strength of the evidence, but you know, some other circumstances.
However, what I love about the statement is he's not saying this didn't happen. He's not saying she's crazy. It's none of those things. It [00:21:00] is like this thing happened. I am. Taking responsibility and acknowledging that we did not see it the same way.
Michael: It's important that you and I talk about this. Yeah. But it's also important that we not spend too much time talking about it, because a few things, one, people are gonna draw whatever conclusions they want to.
If you hate Kobe Bryant, you're gonna call him a rapist. Yeah. And if you love Kobe Bryant, you're gonna forgive him. And if you're somewhere in between and don't know what to make of it, then you have to be at peace with mystery. Yeah. I do think it's an important thing to talk about because it so changes.
His public story. Yeah. That shortly after this, just a few years later, he adopts this moniker Black Mamba. Mm-hmm. And part of the embracing of that name is like, I'm a killer venomous snake. I am somebody people love to hate. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna try and feed that into my competitive nature on the court.
In looking back at this as somebody who did not care for Kobe's personality. Yeah. As a Spurs [00:22:00] fan, I do think that there is something really important that you said about, there's at least an acknowledging of saying, I don't think she's crazy. I also think that I. Whatever happened, I think he really came to regret it.
Oh, he did? There's no question about that. And whatever else it was is a big mistake of a 25-year-old who was thrust into next level celebrity A as a teenager. I mean, when he signed with the Lakers, he was 17. His parents had to co-sign the contract. Yeah. Yeah. He wasn't even an adult yet. Yeah. And so. I'm trying to make peace with my own interpretation of this event because it is something that has hung over his legacy in a big way.
Sara: We don't know what happened in the room, and what I like about the resolution is that Kobe walks away believing the victim.
Michael: Yeah,
Sara: and And maybe
Michael: that's the single most important
Sara: thing. Yeah. My understanding is that it hung heavy with him. For years. There was a priest who's on record is saying that. Like it was years later where he was like, Kobe, you [00:23:00] have to forgive yourself for this.
Michael: This is why it actually shows up at my number three. I think that a lot of athletes go through this journey of fans falling in love and then being villainized, and they have to take both those experiences of having. Complete adoration and excruciating scrutiny and figure out how to channel both kinds of energy into competitiveness.
Yeah. The lesson here for me is how we deal with those sorts of failures. I need to be able to look at transgressions of my past that were not this. Yeah. But somehow, I think you spoke to forgiveness a second ago, and I think that is forgiveness with an angle towards a higher purpose.
Sara: And I think, I don't hold any scales of justice that would say.
This makes up for that. That is not what I'm saying at all when I say this, but the balance of his life does show a remarkable respect for women and indicates that to the extent this was a failure on that front, the rest of his life was [00:24:00] not going to echo that failure.
Michael: So what do you got for number four here, Sarah?
Sara: He describes in one of his final interviews. What is his critique of himself? What was something he didn't get? And it was kind of interesting 'cause the interviewer, I think, was pointing more toward some skill, some niche of the game he never quite mastered. And his answer instead was. For me, it's always compassion.
Yeah, yeah. You know, he just didn't, because he could get up at four and do three a days, and he had that level of discipline and he didn't historically have that compassion for his teammates. Like I think Phil Jackson could, you know, navigate some. Strong personalities and get something out of him. And that's why he left and came back to the Lakers.
And Phil Jackson describes him as uncoachable before he comes back. Right. So there's this idea. Right.
Michael: So there, so yeah, timeline wise, they win three championships. This is when Shaq is on the team. Mm-hmm. Phil's the coach. Phil then leaves and calls Kobe Uncoachable and then he [00:25:00] comes back years later And is the coach when Kobe wins the second two championships?
Yeah. So he, the, he's on all five
Sara: rings. Like, so you see somebody who can like. And you know, Phil Jackson did that with the Bulls too. So there, there is like a Right, he's got a little Zen Buddha in him. But the,
Michael: well, no, I mean I think that's an, you know, you laugh but it's an important thing. Like no, it is like the players meditating, doing like drum circles.
We're gonna spend time with our chara today.
Archival: He had a Tai Chi master. Come to practice and tells us to take our shoes off. And I'm pissed 'cause I'm, I'm ready to like play basketball. And he's standing up there and says, everybody closes their eyes and stuff and talks about the fingertips and barely touching.
And I'm peeking around like, is everybody doing this shit? Like, but honestly I bought into the deeper connection. That exists within the game. And so when you watch our teams or you watch any of Phil's teams, we were never rattled ever.
Michael: One thing that's so interesting about basketball is basketball produces [00:26:00] singular personalities who have to play on the court with four other people.
Mm-hmm. And how those skill sets and personalities work or don't. Yeah. Is. Sort of the arc of coaching, and I think one thing Kobe comes to appreciate across his journey is the way parts of his personality can fire somebody up or not. Mm-hmm. Right. You do see that bear out as an interpersonal lesson on some level, some somewhere.
Talking a bit with PGAs sa, who was instrumental on those last two championships there. If he wanted to fire pow up, he'd bring up the Olympics.
Sara: Yeah. Well, more than that, there was an opening play where he literally rammed Powell, like they'd been fighting. He literally just like, takes him, like goes and just like hits him, just knocks him out and be like, we're not friends here.
You know, like, like you are my brother with the Lakers, but we are not friends on this court. And so, and it really like, it kinda shocks Powell, but that's a perfect example because. If you see that relationship even after Kobe's [00:27:00] death there, I mean friends six closer than a brother, there's like no better illustration.
This man is showing up for his children, showing up for his wife, like maintaining this like very deep affection. I mean, Shaq has amazing stories about him. You see across the league, people talking about late night texts from. Kobe, it could be a question about footwork, it could be a question about technique.
It could be that he's like up watching film or it could just be an mm-hmm. Encouragement about coming back from an injury. So like he felt himself in that community all the time and people loved him, like real affection for mm-hmm. Having been able to witness. The way that he worked. And having been inspired by that or driven by that, there's just a lot of love, particularly at his funeral.
You could just see like the scope of his influence and the depth of it. Mm-hmm. You know, right down to Michael Jordan's tears,
Archival: when Kobe Bryant died, a piece of me died. And as I look in this arena and across the the globe, a piece of you died or else you wouldn't be here. I promise you [00:28:00] from this day forward, I will live with the memories of knowing that I had a little brother that I tried to help in everywhere I could.
Please rest in peace, little brother.
Michael: Well, okay, let me give you my thing, number five, girl, dad. Yay. Uh, this Okay. Yeah. Somebody had to say it. You and I both have daughters. Yes. And Kobe has four daughters. We'll talk about it more in the next category, but he really embraces the idea of being a girl dad, so much so that the.
Statue of him and Gigi. Mm-hmm. Outside of the crypto center has a plaque where it has the words. Most valuable girl dad on it. There's a quote or Gianna's a beast. Girls are amazing. I would've five more girls if I could.
Archival: I love having girls. Yeah. Like I suit it suits you. Yeah. They're awesome, man. You know, having a boy.
I think my, my wife wants aboard more so than I did. Oh, I see. Oh, interesting. Yeah. But I, I, I love my girls. Uh, you know, she keeps saying, stop speaking it into [00:29:00] existence. Uhhuh, I love my girls. Stop saying that
Michael: for a alpha male. Yeah. In a male dominated sport, it's a sort of surprising quality. Yeah. To see.
Yeah. I saw somebody say, dads need to tell their daughters every night you're gonna grow up to do amazing things. Because if you tell them that, they'll believe it. Yeah. And if they believe it, they will. And it's something that I have taken to telling my son and daughter, yeah. Every night just, you're gonna grow up to do amazing things.
And what's really beautiful about that is sometimes I, sometimes I can see him hear it. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And it's, it like sometimes they're like, oh, daddy always says this bullshit. But other times that it, it, it, it, it hit, it hits him, you know? Yeah. And I see that in Kobe in a way that that speaks to his evolution too, you know?
Oh, absolutely. Speaks, speaks to his maturity. I think
Sara: that's what, that's what I mean. I think that there's a very dark chapter, but there's also Yeah. A long history of being like, I am going to. See and respect [00:30:00] women and there's no lesser than in being the dad of a girl, the father of a girl. Yeah. So
Michael: before we leave five things, it is worth a couple of rapid fire stats about Kobe Bryant's basketball career.
He scored 50 points in four consecutive games once. That's astonishing. He has the second highest single game scoring, 81 points second only to Will Chamberlain's 100. Oldest player ever to score 60 points. He did that in his last game at age 37, only player with two jersey numbers, retired number eight and 24, and then most career points by a non-big man.
So fourth, all time and points scored. All right, so let's recap on our five things. So number one, I said obsession, love and compound interest. And number two, you said. The Kobe who did not get to be the creative parlay that was underway. That ended all too soon. Number three, I said hero to villain to hero again.
Number four, you had compassion if only [00:31:00] he had known. Yes. Or in empathy. Yeah, as he matures. And then number five, girl, dad. All right. Awesome list. Let's take a break. Category three. One love. In this category, Sarah and I will each choose one word or phrase that characterizes this person's loving relationships.
First, we'll review what we know about the marriages and the kids. So one marriage to Vanessa. Kobe was 22 years old, Vanessa was. 18. This led to a little bit of an estrangement. His parents were not on board with this marriage, so there was a little bit of a falling out with his folks for a period of time until their first daughter was born.
Natalia, so four daughters. First one, when Kobe was 24. Gigi was born when Kobe was 27. Between those two, there was a period of time where Vanessa filed for divorce in 2011. That divorce was called off in 2013. Third daughter was born after that. Bianca in 2016, and then fourth daughter Capri, born in 2019.
Kobe was 40. Kobe and his second daughter, Gigi, are the ones who died in the helicopter crash. [00:32:00] Sarah, what did you have for one Love?
Sara: So Vanessa speaks at Kobe's. Service at the Staples Center. She basically is addressing him and saying, you take care of Gigi. I'll take care of the other three girls and we'll always be the best team.
Hmm. Vanessa was 17, like on a shoot when there was like in a music video. There's actual video of Kobe noticing her for the first time. Yeah. You know, I just can't imagine. Who do you date after you date Kobe Bryant. You know, like
Yeah, it's a, no, it's a good question.
Michael: It's a good question. What's, what's
Sara: the follow up to that? You know, and it is said that she is like as or more competitive than he was. So best team, is that what you're using? Yeah. They call him the best team and so I do think that that ultimately is. What they decided to be.
And you do see a marriage in phases. Gigi is post Colorado. They've reconciled, they're having another child and pre-Black mamba and [00:33:00] move from eight to 24. So there's a lot happening. And then he's retiring and so they're gonna have, they have two more kids. They're gonna have some more time. He is gonna get to be more active.
She's pregnant when his jerseys are retired. He doesn't really get to know Capri at all. And so that's where you see this commitment to keeping him alive. And this part, I don't know. I mean people grieve in their own ways. I've faced some grief myself in the last few years so I can understand that it's a bit of a ride.
But Vanessa is like very open about gifts even to Natalia for graduation and for like big life events have included. Love Mommy and Daddy. He is still a very open. Presence in their lives, and it's a beautiful choice. And you can see her making that choice and honoring him and making sure that like he's celebrated in la like the, the murals go up, the statues are going up.
There is this like perpetual celebration, grief is love [00:34:00] unexpressed, and she's still expressing some love is what I. See happening?
Michael: Yeah. I mean, I like the phrase best team a lot, but as you said, lots of ups and downs. Mm-hmm. Well, I'll tell you my metaphor for my one love. I said all night, full cycle bonfire.
So here's what I was thinking. I love to camp around a campfire and I love to build fires, and I'm usually. The guy obsessed with what's going on with the fire. Mm-hmm. And I love to go overboard and build an extraordinarily tall bonfire early in the night. And that's what I see in the early part of Kobe's Interpersonal life is a big oversized bonfire that's got too much fuel in it.
That's got an unbelievable amount of heat. But then as the night goes on or turns into. Coals that crackle and that emit warmth and that grow into a more meditative state. Mm-hmm. That's what happens with a bonfire. And that's what I see in Kobe. I see a fiery, young [00:35:00] undisciplined, extraordinarily cocky and, and even selfish man at a young age, and as he grows into being a husband and a father and a teammate.
Mm-hmm. And a mentor. Those fires grow into ember. Yeah. That emit warm, glowing love. Yeah. So that was my metaphor for Kobe.
Sara: I think it's good, and I think it's important, even in his death, I mean, the helicopter was going to the Mamba Cita Academy, which was the academy he set up to train primarily girls, but it was a youth sports activity and it was where, and the other nine people other than the pilot were all somehow affiliated with his daughters.
Basketball team.
Michael: Yeah. Okay. Let's move on. Category four, net worth. In this category, Sarah and I will each write down our numbers ahead of time. We'll then talk a little bit about our reasoning, and then we'll look up the net worth number in real time to see who's closest. Finally, we'll place this person on the famous eng gravy net worth leaderboard.
I think that there's clearly a ton of money. There is a. Boatload of endorsements, a [00:36:00] lot of those get canceled with the Colorado incident. Mm-hmm. But a lot of them come back. He goes on to create a studio. He's in LA and he is such a beloved LA figure that I think he has access to an unbelievable amount of opportunities in and around the entertainment industry.
Mm-hmm. So I'm imagining a very large number here.
Sara: Yeah. And he invests in body armor and it does very, very well. So yeah, I think he's gonna be at a great. Table
Michael: I. Yes. Yes. I think, I think he's gonna be in the upper, he's gonna be in the Pantheon. Okay, so let's go ahead and reveal, uh, Sarah Murphy wrote down 700 million No.
And Michael Osborne wrote down 600 million. The actual net worth value for Kobe Bryant, 600 million. Look at you. Okay. I'm, look at me. I was on a super duper cold streak with this category, and now I am. Back baby. All right. Basketball's a game of runs.
Sara: It's about to happen. You're gonna take it.
Michael: Alright. So with 600 million Kobe Bryant is [00:37:00] tied for position three with Elizabeth Taylor.
Ah, there we go. So that's beautiful. So it's Kobe Bryant and Elizabeth Taylor at the famous eng gravy net worth leaderboard. Afterlife dinner table. Well done. Not surprised. Knew it was gonna be a lot. Let's move on. Category five. Little Lebowski. Urban Achiever.
Archival: They're the little Lebowski. Urban achievers.
Yeah. The achievers. Yes. And proud we are. Of all of them
Michael: in this category, Sarah and I will each choose a trophy and award a cameo and impersonation or some other form of the hat. Tip that shows a different side of this person. I'll give you mine. Mine's pretty quick. Kobe Bryant was in an episode of Modern Family and it's a very short moment where Phil, the dad is sitting there at the Staples Center there at the family's at the basketball game, and he is going Copy Bryant, Kobe Bryant.
He goes, yeah, what do you need? And he looks at him and Phil is totally unprepared for this moment. He is like,
Archival: what can I do for you? You like being a basketball player? Serious. I choked. I didn't think you'd look up here after. [00:38:00]
Michael: He's like, what? Really? And he is like, it's a mental game, man. You gotta be ready and points. Kobe says this, it's a mental game. You gotta be ready. I, what I love about that is Kobe is a larger than life figure in so many ways.
Basketball players, a lot of athletes are like this, but especially basketball players because they're so gigantic. I liked what he had to say. It's a mental game. Be ready for the moment, be present, understand what's going on, Phil, you just embarrassed yourself and you'll never get this back. Um, so it was, it was a very quick cameo, but it was also something that showed me a little bit about like Kobe trying to actually relate to the Common Man as represented by Phil and Modern Family.
Sara: That is a great one. I think we are really missing out on Kobe. In the late night talk show circuit. So this is your Le Baki? Yeah. Yeah. Because he was so good at those interviews. So they're, they're, he's a
Michael: great interview.
Sara: He really is. Which is sort of
Michael: surprising, like I found myself, and even though I did not like him as a player, I found myself endeared to him in a [00:39:00] way that was sort of surprising.
He's way more authentic than you would imagine. He's a great interviewer. Yeah.
Sara: Yeah. I mean, he really did have a broad scope of interest. Beyond basketball, even though he was so obsessed with it. So the one that I wanna go with is, well, there are two. There are two Jimmy appearances. So Jimmy Fallon and Kobe have a beer run story about being like, I wanna say Kobe is maybe his first or second year in la.
As a Laker, so he is not fully identifiable by face yet, and mm-hmm. Jimmy is like a young comic trying to make it in la. They end up at a party, Kobe volunteers to go on a beer run for everybody, but he's not 21 and can't buy beer. So
Michael: join is Jimmy Fallon to buy a beer. He's Jimmy Fallon to
Sara: go with him, so Jimmy drives him.
To the store. They're closing, so they won't let either of the guys in. And they're like holding cash up on the door, like it's back when people had cash. We knock on the glass and the guy
Archival: goes like, what do you want? And we go, we want [00:40:00] beer, but we gotta bring it to a party. We're gonna, he goes. I, I can't.
And you pull your wallet out of your and your ID out and you put it up against the glass and you go, I'm a Laker.
Sara: Come, come. We love the five cases of beer. You have Kobe Bryant who becomes Kobe Bryant, Jimmy Fallon, who becomes Jimmy Fallon. So I just love that there was a time when we were not this, and now we are.
Yeah. But I think my favorite of all appearances, and this got a lot of play after the helicopter crash, Jimmy Kimmel is. Such an LA guy and he just loves Kobe. Like he is, he grew up a Lakers fan. You can like, you can just tell he is like in his element effusive. Yeah, yeah. And he is interviewing him and he's telling the story of being like, well, you know, what are you and Vanessa up to da dah, dah, dah, dah.
And he is talking about his kids. And this is when Kobe says. People are always coming up to me and saying, you know, you and V, you've gotta have a boy, so you know he can carry on the legacy. And he [00:41:00] says, then Gianna speaks up and is like. I got this. So you know, like she says, I'm gonna carry this legacy like this is with me.
And he says in with confidence in 2018, she is definitely gonna play for the WNBA. She is definitely going to have this career and this stardom. And so for that to have. Happened to have that confidence that we were talking about as you know, a girl dad projected, and for that to be real to him in a way that he's already comfortable sharing it is really an amazing thing.
Michael: The other thing you pointed out there that I think that's right. On the money is what an LA figure he is. I think that that's actually hard for people who are not basketball fans like Kobe in terms of embodying the culture and the being a hero to that city. There's not many other figures in sports or anywhere else.
No. Who sort of get quite that, you know, association with the [00:42:00] city. Yeah.
Sara: And they, they had the Grammys in LA the weekend after he died and
Michael: Yeah.
Sara: Like they. Literally just isolated his two jerseys, put lights on them, and Alicia Keys is literally at the Keys saying, we're here tonight in the house that Kobe built.
Archival: Here we are together on music's biggest night. But to be honest with you, we're all feeling crazy sadness right now because earlier today, Los Angeles. America and a whole wide world lost a hero, and we're literally standing here heartbroken in the house that Kobe Bryant
Michael: built. That's a great Lebowski.
Let's pause for another break. Okay. Category six words to Live by. In this category, we each choose a quote. These are either words that came outta this person's mouth or was said about them.
Sara: So this is a little [00:43:00] bit irreverent. If you're watching with children, you may wanna turn down the volumes.
Michael: Okay?
Sara: Okay. So there's a Shaq story he was talking about how. Somebody told Kobe like, there's no I in team. He goes, yeah, but there's an me in that motherfucker.
So apologies to my mother for my language, but I love that quote.
I just think that, yeah, those are
Michael: words to live by. You can always, you can always find a way through. Well done Kobe. Damn,
Sara: there's an me that motherfucker, and he didn't have, he had a reputation of being somebody who like wouldn't pass when he was young, you know? Oh yeah. It's a total ball hog. I mean,
Michael: like most missed shots in the NBA, I think there's like games, like, I think it's in his last game.
I think he missed the first six shots or something like that. Mm-hmm. And then he goes on to score 60. I think he had to shoot 40 to get there or something like that, or 50 to get there. I mean, he takes an unbelievable amount of shots. Yeah. [00:44:00] Yeah. All right. This kind of circles back to earlier, this is your kind of your point number four.
Sports are such a great teacher. I think of everything they've taught me, camaraderie, humility, how to resolve differences. This is sort of the point we were making earlier, that I love sports and I do think that they are important for what they can teach us about ourselves, whether or not. You are good at them.
And I think that what I do see as the truncated creative parlay of Kobe's story is captured in this quote, comradery, humility, and how to resolve differences. That's all about relationships. Yeah. That's not about striving, that's not about obsession, that's not about discipline, that's about the interaction with other people, and that's where the teaching comes through.
So maybe a little trite, but I like that. No, it's
Sara: not trite. I think when I talk to kids about why sports matter, I don't think it's. Because they're elevated in the way that they're elevated in your community. It's because you can learn so much in the crystallized pressure that sports [00:45:00] can create, and you find your own physical limitations.
They have their value even for people who aren't good at them.
Michael: Team sports especially. Oh yeah. So. Okay. Category seven, man in the Mirror. This category asks a fairly simple question. Did this person like their reflection? Yes or no? This is not about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment.
Sara: I mean, we talked about some areas of regret, but I think overall he could look at his. Reflection, steely-eyed, and know that he was out there getting what he wanted and doing what he wanted to do.
Michael: It is in the New York Times obituary, he was fueled by a seemingly endless reservoir of self-confidence.
Yeah. There are some people for whom self-confidence to me looks like compensation for insecurity. Yeah. That is not what I see with Kobe Bryant. I see pure, unfiltered self-confidence, which is not to say there's not self-doubt, but I do think that he is very, very at peace with himself. Even with his [00:46:00] mistakes.
Yeah, even with his transgressions. Yeah. So this was a simple yes for me. I don't know.
Sara: Yeah. No, I think it's a pretty simple yes. But I also think that basketball. Was there for him in the way that music is there for Taylor Swift. I think that being a kid that moved a lot when he was little and like, you know, growing up well
Michael: in a sense of destiny, right?
Yeah. I mean he sort of knew his thing his whole life. Yeah.
Sara: He is born in Philadelphia, spends all that time in Italy. And then mm-hmm. Comes back to Philadelphia does great at Lower Marion in high school, like all the times that most people have an assault on their confidence, basketball was carrying him.
So I'm not surprised he wrote a letter to basketball
Michael: to thank him. Yeah. Well, but, but I mean, actually to go back to that letter, to basketball, it is easy for us to look at it and say it's just a game or it's just entertainment or it's not meaningful. You know, is there a higher purpose? Is there a greater.
Display of our humanity, of our spirit, of our souls in the game. For some people that can [00:47:00] feel like bullshit, corny, but I, I do see meaning in sports that goes beyond displays of athleticism, especially in basketball. Basketball's such a naked sport in a way. Yeah. You know, there's no padding, there's no helmets.
We get to see their facial expressions, their body language, the quickness, the, the agility, all of it in a way that. There. There is something like revealed for me in human nature in it, and I, I think Kobe is as raw about that as any other player I can imagine. I think that's one of the reasons he's so admired by younger players.
They see a fierceness that does stand above in a sport defined by exactly that quality. Mm-hmm. All right. Category eight, cocktail coffee or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most wanna do with our dead celebrity. I'll lead us off here. This was a hard one. I said cannabis mostly because I'm a sober guy and I miss cannabis.
Whether, whether Kobe's there or not, I kind of just been fantasizing about cannabis [00:48:00] lately. I think. What is the conversation I want to have with him? I mean, this is, I think the youngest death we've done on Famous and Gravy. There is a truncated life here. There's no question that there was an interesting next chapter.
It is also kind of interesting. It seems like he was born to play basketball. He talks about playing from age two, and while he had a truncated life, he had an extraordinarily full basketball career, and I think that he is poised to try and extract lessons from that. Experience for the rest of his life.
That's what we did not get. But we started to get about deeper meaning, deeper metaphors, deeper lessons, whether it relates to relationships or what we discover about ourselves in sports. And I wouldn't mind talking about where that might go over some bong rips perhaps. Hmm. Um, actually, you know what?
Let's go with a joint around a campfire because I do think that. I'm proud of my metaphor for his interpersonal relationships, [00:49:00] and I like the idea of, of sitting around a campfire, smoking a joint with Kobe Bryant, talking about like, almost like just giving us ideas, seeding ideas for what he wanted to do as a storyteller, but where else we all might go without, now that he's gone.
It would be, I think, and, and this is unusual for this category for me, but one where I would want to talk about the life he didn't get to have. Yeah. You know, in the second half, which it's a young death, it feels appropriate. So
Sara: yeah, I went back and forth and ultimately the moment though that I would probably wanna capture is post-retirement.
He started taking Natalia, his oldest. To his 4:00 AM workouts when she was still playing volleyball and I'm gonna need some coffee.
I'm not sure if he's doing That's because it's 4:00 AM Yeah, and that's really what I, I wanna see like what is that 4:00 AM workout mean to him when it's [00:50:00] not for basketball? Like if it's not about compound interest for excellence in the sport, is it for her? Is it like a different type of, because he said he would, he would just have to.
Set goals for himself. Like, I wanna bulk up, I wanna do this. You know, it's like how do you set those new goals when it's not basketball anymore? How do you convert that to a father daughter experience, and how do you help somebody else implement the same type of discipline for their goals? That's probably what I would most.
Wanna see, I'd wanna be in on a conversation in that gym.
Michael: Yeah. Okay. Well, I think we've arrived. The final category, the VanDerBeek, named after James VanDerBeek, who famously said in varsity Blues, I don't want your life in that varsity blues scene, James makes a judgment that he does not want a certain kind of life based on just a few characteristics.
So here Sarah and I will form a rebuttal to anyone skeptical of how. Kobe Bryant lived. Let's go through the counterarguments quickly, I think for why you, James has a point in that you would not want this life. The first one's obvious, the young [00:51:00] death. I mean, this is a truncated life and it feels like we were robbed and I'm, I think if Kobe were here, he would be pissed off that he died the way he died.
Oh, yeah. At the age he died, obviously. And that Gigi, I mean all of it is, is unbelievable amount of tragedy. I think thing number. Two for why James Vander has a point. You know, this is James VanDerBeek said, I don't want your life in relationship to high school football. And that is because sports can be all consuming if you want to achieve a level of excellence, and we see Kobe show up in other places.
He is relevant outside of sports, but it is all basketball for most of his life. This man. Percentage wise, logged more hours in the gym over the course of a lifetime than probably another basketball player ever will. Mm-hmm. And just what else that does not allow for, James has a point that isn't this a little too much?
Uh, what about living, you know, a multifaceted life, which I think Kobe was headed towards and did not [00:52:00] get to have. And then I think maybe the third point in the counter argument is probably public humiliation. Whatever happened in Colorado, he had to reckon with that attached to his. Narrative and his public perception for his whole career, and you have to sort of embrace a villain like persona, call yourself the Black Mamba in order to evolve into the next stage of your career.
So that would suck. Is there more you would add to that, Sarah, or is that sort of summarize the why you would not want this life?
Sara: Well, I think he is. Almost through his life and is still thinking that he's missed out on something like compassion. Part of that is the young death. It just feels like he deserved four quarters and he got halfway into the third.
You know?
Michael: Yeah. That's, that's sort of point number one. I mean, and it's a little hard to not have that dwarf all others. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Let's make the case for like, what are the reasons you would most want this life?
Sara: He found his talent. He did not waste it. He owned it. He had what we're calling this compound interest.
He had [00:53:00] 20 years in the same place. So he had a career that let he and his family be where they were gonna be. He got to be in a community. He wasn't getting yanked around. Yeah. You know, like.
Michael: All that. Well, okay, wait a sec. Let's break those things up a little bit. I do think that as a basketball career, this is one of the most enviable sports careers you could have.
Absolutely. That, uh, in 20 years, five of them were champions, so that's 25% of your years, you're holding up a trophy at the end of it. I also think that the records of second most shots ever taken and to end on 60 uh, points, oh my gosh. Yeah.
Sara: You could not ask. For a, a better last game. Yeah. That was amazing.
And,
Michael: and I mean, there's moments we didn't talk about, like when he tears his Achilles and makes two free throws before hobbling off the court. Yeah. The stuff of legend and lore. Oh, absolutely. I, as a basketball career, this is maybe even better than Jordan, who's in and out of the game, who maybe has more championships and more MVPs.
But it's not all in [00:54:00] one place. Jordan comes back for the wizards. I mean, I, whatever. This one is actually kind of perfect in its boundedness. Yeah. And then I think your point number two, all in one place. Like he gets to actually have stability. Yeah. And family life stability. Yeah. With that, so much so that he becomes.
Unbelievably associated with LA as one of its greatest sports heroes of all time.
Sara: Yeah. It might be that I've read too much southern literature, but I really value a sense of place, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it.
Michael: I know, I agree. Mm-hmm. And, and, and LA is such a mishmash of cultures and personalities and forces that for somebody to be a kind of local hero in a way is, I mean, not local exactly, but to own it.
The way he owns it is desirable. Oh, yeah.
Sara: And I think that his relationship with Vanessa had a lot of ups and downs, but it was still an enviable relationship in the end. Yeah. Um,
Michael: yeah, I, I, I agree. Yeah. That, that there is a rock.
Sara: Yeah. And they definitely grew up together in lots of ways, you know, like it was, it was a [00:55:00] relationship that was controversial with the family.
And then, you know, people come around like, that's. Very meaningful.
Michael: No, that's the point of a marriage, right? Yeah. Is to figure out how to grow together. It's the hard thing. Believe me, this is, I I, I can speak to this. No, no.
Sara: But that's the thing is like, they were definitely a startup, you know? Like
Michael: Yeah.
Sara: You know, and he, he was like on his way up, but it wasn't clear he was gonna be Kobe, Kobe when that all happened.
So
Michael: there's a lot of volatility and uncertainty early on. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Sara: Yeah. And I think the relationships. And the friendship. So like if you look at his relationship with Powell and with Michael Jordan, who was like his hero and then, you know, became an older brother, became the comrade and an older brother, and Jordan says like, I can't believe there's gonna be another Jordan crying meme from this funeral.
Just Right, right, right. It's just like weeping and then. You know, like Serena and Diana, he has like these very prominent WNBA players saying I'm not here without Kobe. And then to see even like things programs [00:56:00] like Yukon, like some other places, he really invested. You see his legacy in flight and he managed to do that in 41 years.
Like that was only gonna grow. Yeah. And I think he married a woman capable of. Making it grow after he is gone. You know, like I think that, yeah, Vanessa's gonna see to that. So like I said, I didn't know who, well, whatever, I mean yeah. I dunno, you date after Kobe Bryant. So just, yeah. Yeah. I, I've,
Michael: I've thought about this a lot.
I don't know who I would date Bryant. Um, it, it, of answering that question and maybe last thing we'll say, I think Girl Dad. We are entering an age of women's sports. In particular the WNBA. Yeah. Gaining more prominence and I think Kobe had a part to play. Oh, in that elevation. All right, so let's recap. So the argument's 4 1, 1 of the more perfect NBA careers actually yes.
Number two, stability and a sense of place. Mm-hmm. And home in la. Number three, the family life. You know, growing together in a kind [00:57:00] of rock And number four girl, dad, especially as it relates to women's sports. Yeah. So with that, James VanDerBeek, I'm Kobe Bryant and you want my life?
Before we close out famous and Gravy listeners, if you enjoyed this episode and you're enjoying our show, you've got your phone in your hand. Please take a moment to share it with a friend. It's the best way to grow our podcast, one episode at a time. Sarah, speed round. If people enjoyed the Kobe Bryant episode, what is another episode they might enjoy from the Famous Gravy archives?
Sara: I would plug again, Muhammad Ali because I love the episode, but as an Atlanta Braves fan, my association with a much beloved figure is Hank Aaron. That Hank Aaron episode would be a good place to spend your time if you're interested in a life like this.
Michael: Yeah. Episode 49, hammer time. Uh, Hank Aaron soft plug for episode 31.
The Greatest, Muhammad Ali, [00:58:00] this is gonna sound a little bit left field, but there was some Girl Dad stuff in a way. With episode 69, foul House, Bob Saggot. He was America's dad in a lot of ways, and I think that the father-daughter relationship that we hear about in in that episode is worth a listen. So episode 69, foul House.
Here is a little preview for the next episode of Famous and Gravy. He married twice, fathered three children and was not above appearing on the Simpsons. Star Trek. The Next Generation or The Big Bang Theory. Well, the problem is William Shatner is not dead. He's not. He's very much still with us Famous and Gravy Listeners, we'd love hearing from you.
If you wanna reach out with a comment question or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello at. Famous eng gravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels. Famous Eng Gravy is created by Amit Kipur and me, Michael Osborne. Thanks so much to Sarah Murphy for guest hosting.
This episode [00:59:00] was produced by Ally Ola with assistance from Jacob Weiss. Original music by Kevin Strang. Thanks. See you next time.