113 Space Man transcript (Stephen Hawking)
Michael: [00:00:00] Famous and gravy listeners, Michael Osborne here. I've got two things to say before we start today's episode. First, we could really use your help growing the show and there's a very simple thing you can do. Leave a review for Famous and Gravy on Apple Podcasts. If you're listening on Apple, you just scroll down on our show page, tap the Stars, and write a few words.
These reviews help feed Apple's algorithm and help new listeners to find our show. The second thing is, if you yourself are interested in starting your own podcast and you wanna learn about how we built Famous and Gravy, we would love to have a conversation. Our email, as always is hello@famousenggravy.com.
So two things. Please write a review, and if you're fantasizing about your own show, please reach out. That's it. Thanks again. Let's get to it.
Nick: This is Famous and Gravy biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at [00:01:00] hello@famousandgravy.com. Now here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.
Michael: This person died 2018, age 76. He published a nonfiction book in 1988 that has sold more than 10 million copies and inspired a documentary film by Errol Morris. No clue. I'm gonna have to start taking notes.
Friend: Ah, Colin Powell.
Michael: Not Colin Powell. Good guess. All right. He married twice, fathered three children, and was not above appearing on the Simpsons Star Trek of the Next Generation or the Big Bang Theory.
Friend: I never saw the Big Bang Theory. Oh, well the problem is William Shatner is not dead.
Michael: He's not. He's very much still with us. In 1963, he was diagnosed with Lou Gehrig's disease and told he had only a few years to live.
Friend: Wow. And he lived that long afterwards. That's unheard of. Wow. I got nothing. I have nothing.
Is [00:02:00] this, I think you've already done Michael Landon.
Michael: Uh, no, that's a good one though. In 1973, he set out to apply quantum theory, the weird laws that govern subatomic reality to black holes.
Friend: Uh, I, Stephen Hawking, Stephen Hawking. Stephen Hawkins, is it Stephen Hawking?
Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Stephen Hawking.
Archival: Before I got motor neuron disease, I was bored with life, but the prospect of an early death made me realize life was really worth living. There is so much, one can do, so much that anyone can do. Of course, I am very fortunate, but everyone can achieve something if they try hard enough.
Michael: Welcome to Famous Eng Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne. And I'm [00:03:00] Nicholas Weiler. And on this show we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century and we take a totally different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today?
Stephen Hawking died 2018, age 76. I am thrilled to have my friend, Dr. Nicholas Weiler back on the show. So Nick and I, we didn't go to grad school together. We were at grad school at the same time. Uh, Nick and I worked together on a show called From Our Neurons to Yours by the WCI Neuroscience at Stanford.
Here's the question I have for you.
Nick: How's your physics? It's awful. I got a terrible grade in physics. I had a fantastic all, here's what I'll say. In ninth grade in high school, I had the unusual but wonderful experience of taking a conceptual physics class, like a no math physics class by this fantastic teacher who's also the same teacher who as a senior in high school got me into neuroscience.
[00:04:00] So thank you Dr. Brakeman. Oh, very cool. So like basics of physics, like conceptual physics, level of like brief history of time. Love it. Math. Hmm. That's why I went into biology. I'm sorry. All the biologists. It's a, I don't even get brief history of time, man. I read a briefer history of time.
Michael: I read a briefer history of time and I got it a little bit more as I was familiarizing myself with that book and the lead up to this episode, I was like, I think all I'm really getting here is vocabulary.
Nick: It's like some things in neuroscience were like, very quickly you get into philosophy. Yeah. Like what does it mean to be alive? And like I, there are definitely parts of that book where I was like, is Stephen Hawking just like an undergraduate sitting in a dorm room smoking a joint? Just being like, but what if an antiparticle is just a particle that's going backwards in time, man.
Right. But what was before that? Have you thought about what was before
Michael: that? What about the creator and are you familiar with the movie A Fish called Wanda? Of course. Okay, so the Kevin Klein character, Otto is my, one of my favorite Charact. Don't call me stupid characters. Exactly. He's the pseudo [00:05:00] intellectual, you know, there's like scenes of him like reading Nietzsche, and there is a moment where he's in a fight with the Jamie, the Curtis character, Wanda, and she calls him an ape.
He says, apes don't read philosophy. And she says, yes, they do, Otto. They just don't understand it. That's how I feel like most people are with brief history of time. They picked it up, they got it on their bookshelf. It's a, a great looking book with a wonderful title, and we just don't understand it.
Nick: I, I mean, I, I feel terrible about this as a professional science communicator, but I never read it until we were preparing for this episode, I think because I was like.
Theoretical physics, I can't do it. It just that,
Michael: yeah, I enjoyed it.
Nick: I thought it was cool. There were definitely things that went over my head, but there's
Michael: definitely places where it loses me, but that's how all science communication works is that's just fine. Just move me a ls. Yeah, I think so too. We do that on our show, right?
Like there are some moments where like, you might get lost here and that's fine. Yeah. Well, good. So we're on the same page about not being particularly intelligent on theoretical physics. Our goal here is to
Nick: get as many angry notes from [00:06:00] physicists as we can.
Michael: Exactly. All right, let's get right into it.
Category one, grading the first line of their obituary, Stephen w Hawking, the Cambridge University physicist and bestselling author who roamed the cosmos from a wheelchair, pondering the nature of gravity and the origin of the universe, and becoming an emblem of human determination and curiosity. Died early Wednesday at his home in Cambridge, England.
He was 76.
Nick: Holy wow. I really enjoyed this. I mean, I've listened to a lot of episodes of this show and I was like prepared to come in here with a hatchet and I was like, I don't know. I mean, I have some very annoying minor notes. I want to hear 'em. Let's talk
Michael: about what's working first. All right. This is subtle, but I kind of love that they snuck in the middle initial.
That's such an academic move. Stephen w Hawking. Nobody has ever heard this man's middle initial before now, but whenever there's a middle initial period that kind of signals, oh, [00:07:00] he's a doctor of some sort. He's an important maning.
Nick: Yeah. I've never seen the middle initial ever used in any of my
Michael: research.
Right. I had no idea. I didn't even notice it until I read it out. This. Now I'm curious, what
Nick: does it stand for? What
Michael: is the W, so physicist, bestselling author? Yes. Roamed the cosmos from a wheelchair. Great line. That's perfect. Pondering the nature of gravity and the origin of the universe. I wanted a comma after universe, they don't have one.
Mm-hmm. And becoming an emblem of human determination and curiosity. I, emblem is an amazing word. The last time I remember seeing Emblem on Famous and Gravy was episode, I think it's 11 or 12, Nelson Mandela. That is a word that you only pull out when we are really trying to go for high praise. And this was.
A good deployment of that word. It's hard to pick out what I don't like. Let's hear your nitpicky notes. What? What's not working for you
Nick: here? There's no mention of black holes. Oh, interesting. That's what his real like contribution to science was, was like the [00:08:00] science of black holes. That's the thing. He's got the equation he came up with on his tombstone, it was about black holes.
So they've got the nature of gravity and the black holes are really about the nature of gravity. So I I, I mean, I'll give it to them.
Michael: Yeah. And I mean, they do get to the origin of the universe, which is where he goes to eventually. You're right. I mean, this is the thing with theoretical physics. It actually has some very sexy science words, black hole origin of the universe, big bang spaghettification.
Right? I mean, there's a menu to choose from if you want to talk about what these people do with their time. So, yeah. I, I hear you. What other small notes did you have here? It uses Cambridge twice. Cambridge University died in Cambridge, England. Okay. Yes. Yeah, I suppose that's true, but I mean,
Nick: you can see the level of nitpicking that I have to do here to come up with some criticism.
This is a, this is golden
Michael: and I, I mean, I have no notes. I'll give you my score. I, I'm giving this a 10 out of 10. I've done this recently. I need to be careful about how many A pluses I [00:09:00] give, but honestly, this is inspiring. It's inspired, it is absolutely painting the picture of the man we know, and it is high praise and has your attention.
Like there's a lot to talk about here with this life. Read on to now 10 for me.
Nick: Where are you? I gave it a nine only because I felt bad giving it a 10, but if you're giving it a 10,
Michael: I'm very comfortable giving it a
Nick: 10. They
Michael: sometimes they get it. Perfect. All right. 10 out of 10. Let's move on. Category two, five things I love about you.
Here Nick and I will develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived. I'd like you to kick us off. What do you have for number one? I was trying to come up with a
Nick: good phrase for this. I've got cosmic marketer. Okay. Okay. I mean, cosmic marketer. This is going, I was, I've gotta say this as the science.
This is gonna be the nerdiest episode of Famous. That's when you invite me on the show. Oh my God. I've got a nerdy one, Nick. Um, so cosmic marketer, because this goes back to him being an emblem, like he was out there [00:10:00] being theoretical physics. Yes. He taught the world about the Big Bang and black holes in a brief history of time.
And with that fame, like he really embraced this like role of being an avatar for theoretical physics. It had some negative consequences for him professionally and personally for sure, but like he was really good at making use of his uniqueness to tell that story. In 2009, he held a fancy party for time travelers that he only publicized after it had happened So dumb as a way of demonstrating his point of view that time travel is impossible.
He's like, well told you someone would've come. I got some really nice hor d'oeuvres and if time travelers ever invented, someone would've showed up at this party and no time Travelers from the future showed up. But that's like a marketing thing, right? Like it's a gag. Yeah, it's a thing that gets news.
Michael: I think what you're speaking to really is his skill as a science communicator.
[00:11:00] Like a brief history of time is a confusing book in a lot of places. Like he, it's easy
Nick: to read, but hard to understand.
Michael: Yeah, exactly. It's sort of astonishing to me that it was this international bestseller, more than 10 million copies. It was in the Guinness Book of World records for, you know, bestselling nonfiction book.
Now, how many people just have it on their shelves as. It's that a
Nick: symbol. Right. But isn't that sort of surprising to you? It is. There's a thing that I thought was interesting, which is that all of his books, or at least the two main ones were written with co-authors. Now he does have a disability and is very difficult for him to communicate, so that's legit.
I remember reading though about this when they were doing a brief history of time, they had to go through lots and lots of revisions to make it at all understandable, and that Hawking was getting like increasingly annoyed that people didn't understand. The physics.
Michael: Well, what's also really incredible about that book is that he starts writing it before he loses the ability to speak.
The first draft of that was largely dictated, and then he has [00:12:00] a, a near death experience in the mid eighties. At that point is when he moves over to the voice synthesizer that we're also familiar with it. It is in the later stages that he's getting pushback from his editor saying still not good enough, as he's learning to write, you know, speak with this thing.
Archival: I had a stack of notes from Peter gdi suggesting changes and clarifications to my book, but I needed practical help with ther at my end, someone who could act access a go between keeping the graphic, uh, as simple as we can. The people in the states were speaking on a loud speakerphone in his office, and Steven was.
Writing, using his new computer system on the screen and then you would say what he was saying over the phone. We're just sort of cobbling it together, I think is probably the
Michael: right term. So that the book happens at all is amazing. Yeah. I mean, if you had to try and distill down what you think his [00:13:00] gift as a science communicator is, is it about the fact that he is a man in a wheelchair who speaks with a, a voice synthesizer?
I mean, that that is kind of part of the package of him as a science communicator, but it's also the ideas. There is something exciting about the imagination. Like how do you understand his talent as a cosmic marketer?
Nick: It's a great question. I think that it's partly his willingness to dive into the philosophy.
Like if you wanna really understand what he's talking about, it's some thorny stuff, but he's also going to step back up, right? He does the thing that I was always taught in grad school to do in a good presentation where you're like, here's the high level and I'm gonna dive down deep into some thorny stuff now let me bring you back up and like, what have we learned from this?
Yeah. And so even if there's stuff in there that's really hard to wrap your head around, he's always framing it in a way that connects it to what does it mean to be alive? And like why does the universe exist at all these big undergrad dorm room questions?
Michael: I agree with that, Nick. I mean, I [00:14:00] do think the art of science communication on some level is.
An intuition about the audience's tolerance for complexity and confusion. Mm. It is this toggle between words and ideas you recognize and like, I don't quite get it, but then you start to feel like you get it just a little bit. So, well, I love that. Okay. For my thing, number two, I think his somewhat reluctant willingness to be a symbol for disabilities.
Obviously I wanna be sensitive here, but I do think that there are some parts of his story that are flat out inspiring in terms of his diagnosis and how he dealt with it. So he was diagnosed with a LS around age 21, Lou Gehrig's disease, and this is near the time. At the end of his undergraduate, essentially at Oxford, he starts falling down a little bit.
He has one really bad accident where he falls downstairs and the doctor's like, well, you need to drink a little bit less. And then eventually he goes to a doctor [00:15:00] and the doctors give him like two years to live. They say you're not gonna make it. This is also around the time that he meets and falls in love with his first wife and he takes that experience of falling in love with her.
He had also been something of a like gifted, but he would even say, I think semi lazy student. Yeah. Before he gets his diagnosis and it, and when he thinks he's only got a couple years to live, he like goes for it. He's like, well, I wanna make a contribution
Archival: perhaps because I realized I might not have much time.
I renewed my efforts to tackle the big question in cosmology in the early sixties. Did the universe have a beginning or not?
Michael: And he lands a job and pursues a life. His relationship to his disability is at times you hear him say, sometimes I think the only reason I'm a celebrity is because I'm in a wheelchair, right?
And so I do think that there is some reluctance, but there's also other key moments where he's clearly embracing it. He's at [00:16:00] the Paralympics ceremonies.
Archival: The Paralympic games are all about transforming our perception of the world. We are all different. There is no such thing as the standard or run of the mill human being, but we shared the same human spirit.
Michael: He talks very openly and honestly about the experience of frustration, but also finding meaning and purpose in, in some ways, Nick. This is a story that scares most of us. This is a big fear that we're gonna lose our physical capabilities. Yeah. And we're gonna be, in our mind, unable to communicate, unable to partake in quote unquote normal activities.
And I. The only sort of upward staircase there. The only solution in all this is to find meaning and purpose in whatever it is you do. And he finds that. And
Nick: then some, I heard him in an interview say that he was happier after his motor neuron diagnosis than yeah. Before. Because before he, [00:17:00] he was like at a loss for a meaning to his life.
Like, what did anything matter? You know, he was an undergrad. He had that malaise of like, what is, you know, what's the purpose of life? I don't know. But then he, he figured out a way to like, Hey, I'm gonna make whatever contribution I can.
Michael: I watched the 1992 movie that Errol Flynn adapted about. Mm-hmm. Pre brief history of time.
And there's a moment where his mother, like all but walks up to, it's almost a good thing. She's like, I, she catches herself and says, I can't call this a good disease. But this lesson of finding. Meaning and purpose. Like this is what we all have to do, Nick. Yeah. This is the famous and gravy point is that we all need to find a higher calling, a greater purpose, a way of being of service to our fellows and society at large.
And you know that this man who had this very scary, progressive neurodegenerative disease found that like it cannot be overstated. What a lesson that is. I wanna ask you, how well do you understand Lou Gehrig's disease or a LS, or what do [00:18:00] we call
Nick: it now? It seems like most people are calling it a LS now, which stands for a myotrophic Lateral sclerosis, which is, you know, fancy science talk for muscles degenerate because the nerves that control the muscles stop working.
And what part of the brain are we talking about? Well, there are two groups of motor neurons. There are motor neurons in the brain. That communicate to the spinal cord and their motor neurons. Yeah. In the spinal cord that communicate to the muscles and either or both of those can degenerate in a LS.
That's really
Michael: interesting. I mean, one other question on this, and you may not have an answer to it. If Stephen Hawking were to get the diagnosis today in 2025, would the prospects be more or less the same as when he got it back in the mid, early sixties?
Nick: That is a great question. I, I suspect so. Don't, this is not, not somewhere where we've made a lot of progress.
No. I mean, people are still, I, I know several people either directly or through friends and family who've had a LS and it's a very sad thing to a outsider. It feels, it's it, as you said earlier, it's very scary thinking about being locked in. [00:19:00] There's a line in the theory of everything, the movie with Felicity Jones and Eddie Redman about Stephen Hawking, where when he's getting the diagnosis for the first time, he's like sitting in the hallway of this hospital and the doctor, and the white code is telling, he is being very blunt and very straight with him about what it means, and the haw character is done by that.
He said, will I still be able to think? And he, the doctor says something along the lines of like, yes, but pretty soon no one will know what you're thinking about. Wow. Yeah. You won't be able to share it. Yeah. Even now the average survival is like three years. Is that right? Wow. Okay.
Michael: Well, I am curious like how unusual it is that he made it to 76.
Nick: I think it's extremely unusual now, the other thing is that he also had early onset a LS, I mean, this usually happens to people after they're 50, so he had an A very unusual.
Michael: I mean, here's the thing, Nick. The fact that he found a purpose and a meaning and a reason to not just [00:20:00] live, but to throw himself into a certain kind of work, doesn't feel totally coincidental to me with his surprising longevity.
That I think we need, that we need a reason to get out of bed in the morning, even if we have to make it up, even if we have to trick our minds into thinking that we need a reason to get out of bed in the morning and if, if there's nothing else to learn from this life, it's
Nick: that, you know? Yeah. I mean, I have mixed feelings about that.
On the one hand, Hawking himself said it is. So important to have work that's meaningful to you. But on the other hand, there's also just genetics, right? Like you can have as much hope as you want, and if you've got bad genetics, it's not gonna save you.
Michael: Well, what's interesting, at the same time, we do know that this quality can really matter.
That there are instances where, you know, finding hope and finding new reasons for hope are complicated. But also it seems to be a quality that even the greatest doctors will tell you find it. Positive outlook doesn't need to be a fixed state. It just needs to be at best average state. You know? Can you find the case [00:21:00] for it?
That's what I see here, and that's what I love about his story. And I think it is obviously a symbol for disabled people everywhere, but a symbol for all of us that one of the greatest minds of this generation was in a wheelchair and, and, and had a, this debilitating disease. It's a story of hope.
Ultimately, whatever way you cut it, it's a story of hope.
Nick: That's right.
Michael: All right. What'd you have for number three?
Nick: I had physical comedy. Get it. Like physics physicist. Yeah, no, I get it. Physics Cole
Michael: Company. Okay. Um, I'm here for dad jokes. No, no. And the Nerd train rolls on. Yes. All right. Yeah.
Nick: So are you getting at a sense of humor?
Sense of humor, and he has this reputation for being mischievous. There's a sort of expectation that he subverts about someone with a disability or someone in a wheelchair. We have a tendency in our society to think of someone who has a disease as a victim or as a saint. And he's neither of those things.
He's certainly not a saint and he is [00:22:00] not a victim, but he's also really funny. He's loves pranking people. And my favorite story is apparently during a BBC interview and the cameraman was like adjusting his lighting and he pulled out an electrical cable from the socket, and this alarm started sounding like beep beep, beep beep.
And hawking slumps forward in his chair, like he's been unplugged and, and everyone like, rushes over to him and he's just laughing. 'cause he just got them, he thought like, I don't know what he wanted them to think, but they're like, he makes a lot of jokes about being a computer.
Michael: I saw, this is a quote I had that I, I wanted to share that aligns with this.
Uh, the downside of my celebrity is that I can't go anywhere in the world without being recognized. It's not enough for me to wear dark sunglasses and a wig. The wheelchair gives me away. Right.
Nick: He was also known for like ferocious zingers. He was on John Oliver. You've stated that you believe there could be an infinite number of parallel universes.
Archival: Does that mean that there is a universe out there where I am smarter than you? Yes. And also [00:23:00] universe. Swear you're funny. Okay.
Michael: Yeah. And so how did you put phys physics? Cult humor? I, I dunno how it's spelled. Physics. Cult physics. Cult humor. Physics. Cult humor. That's very good. All right, well, let me go with number four.
So I wrote down, uh, American Accent. I want to talk about the voice. He said, uh, once I used to think it was Swedish. I've been told it's actually American. At least it's better than my old voice. I sounded like a daic. Um, I think that there is actually something great. I especially love the way he says the word universe.
And I, I won't do too many Stephen Hawking impressions is a bad idea, but, but hearing the word universe through this robotic synthesized voice actually. Kind of worked.
Nick: It's like he's the time traveler from the future.
Michael: Yeah. I mean, I think actually to go back to his gift as a, a cosmic marketer, as a science communicator, part of [00:24:00] what was effective for television and for movies and for popular culture was the fact that he had this synthesized voice
Nick: instantly recognizable, which he patented.
And like he, he has the rights to that voice. And again, marketing.
Michael: Yeah, exactly. And I, I think it's also, I mean, he, the technology evolved as he aged. He gets the voice in the mid eighties because there's a guy in Silicon Valley who has a solution for his mother, and Stephen Hawking tries it, and he, I initially absolutely loves it.
He's like, I could communicate better with this thing. Better than I could before I lost my speech and only a few people could understand me 'cause he was slurring so much. One thing I found when he was able to work it with his hand, 'cause that's how it was initially, the words would pop up on a screen and there'd be common words and he'd could scroll through the alphabet.
Apparently the rate was about one 10th of normal communication. Mm-hmm. So there's also something there about choosing your words carefully. I've been on this kick lately where I've [00:25:00] been thinking a lot about the value of pen to paper and one thing about writing is that, and you and I do this a lot on our, on our show, like choosing the write words and having it kind of click into place.
I love thoughtful writing. It's kind of what he's doing as a communicator. 'cause he's gotta be choice with his words. So I love the accent, but I also love the sort of process of him speaking and I love. What he's speaking about. The whole package kind of just works
Nick: in this great way. Well, there's also this weird thing that you sent me this interview with the Desert Island discs.
Yeah, the B Show. Yeah. Thought it was very interesting and she was quite, quite sharp with him, which I thought was, I mean, I was impressed. That was part of what stood out to me. She asked hard, hard questions. Yeah. But she was like, it's, it's, it must be nice that you always get your interview questions in advance so you can prepare.
Archival: The process means that you have control, and I know that that's quite important to you. Your, your family and friends sometimes call you stubborn or bossy. Do you plead guilty to being those things? [00:26:00] Anyone with any ounce that's called stubborn at times, I would prefer to say I was determined.
Michael: It is an important thing to know that one 10th, the speed of quote unquote normal conversation.
It's not as if you can just slip into a conversation with him if that's the rate of communication. Right. You got a, and then I
Nick: think it became slower later because he couldn't use his fingers anymore. He had to use,
Michael: right. He
Nick: lost the use of his hands. He had to use like a switch on his glasses that he was touching with his cheek, which is sort of incredible that they were able to dial it in.
But about the accent, I mean, they offered him a new, like a newfangled computer generated voice that would be much more realistic. And he said no. They came to associate with it. Yeah, it's me. He said, no, it's me. I'm I, it's me now. Yeah. I love that. Uh, all right, so what do you got for number five? I've got wheelchair hot rod.
Okay. Okay. Keep a technological theme. This is just a little character note, but he was known for reckless wheelchair driving. I watched this, this recent movie and thought they did a nice job of like, at the beginning when he's in university, he's like [00:27:00] racing his friend on his bicycle. He's the coxswain on the crew team.
Like he was a very like outgoing, athletic, like sociable guy. And so just remember again, it's this point of like, just because someone's in a wheelchair doesn't mean that they don't have this like Yeah. Like thrill seeking. Thrill seeking. Yeah. And he loved parties. Like he famously was like always going to parties with celebrities and stuff like that.
Michael: And this seems like a good moment to bring up the fact that he went to space with Virgin Galactic. Right. And he talks about the experience of weightlessness. I mean, I think to your point, like he is able to still participate in a certain element of thrill seeking, even though it looks like a bad idea.
But I don't know. Thrill. Seeking's always a bad idea. So hot rod, what'd you call it? Hot rod. What? Wheelchair, hot rod, wheelchair, hot rod. It's an important thing too because it helps us to better understand his personality. I mean, that's actually a great one to call out Nick because it's evident throughout his life, even post-diagnosis.
Okay, well, let's recap. So number one, you said cosmic marketer. Number [00:28:00] two, somewhat reluctant disability advocate. Uh, number three, you had physics, soul comedy. Okay, we're never gonna say that again. Physics, comedy number four, American accent and the voice. And number five, wheelchair hot rod. Excellent list.
Okay, let's take a break. Category three, one love. In this category, Nick and I will each choose one word or phrase that characterizes this person's loving relationships. First, we will review what we know about the marriages and the kids. So Stephen Hawking was married twice, first to Jane Wild in 1965, when he was 23 years old.
She was 21. They met shortly before his a LS diagnosis. While they were both students in Cambridge, they had three children together. Robert Hawking, born 67. Steven was 25. Lucy, who was born in 1970, when he was 28, and Timothy had born in, in 1979 when he was 37. Steven and Jane separated in 1990 and divorced in 1995 when he was [00:29:00] 53.
What's interesting here is that to hear her talk about it. It was like, there was two things. One is that the burden of care was growing, but more importantly it really seemed like celebrity and the loss of privacy was something that she really struggled with. There was a little bit of a reconciliation later, but they never were married again.
He remarried Elaine Mason in 1995. This is the same year as his divorce from Jane. This is when he was 53. Elaine was 44. She'd previously been one of his nurses. The marriage was controversial. There were allegations of abuse, but Stephen vehemently denied that there was any kind of abuse happening. They divorced in 2006 when he was 64, so they were married about 11 years.
Uh, Stephen Hawking had three grandchildren when he passed away. He was not married. So Nick, what did you have for
Nick: one Love? I went back and forth between a few different phrases. I'm curious what you think about these. So one [00:30:00] is soap opera. And then the second is it's complicated, and the third one was disappointing.
Michael: Okay, let's, let's go with number three. Let's say disappointing. I would like
Nick: Why my read. So it's really hard to see someone who has been so deeply cared for by another person for 30 years, then walk out the door and take up with his nurse. It's just disappointing. Yeah. I hate to see it. I'm sure there are complex stuff going on.
I like Stephen Hawking in so many ways, and that is the moment in his life. I'm just like, dude, yeah, I, it's right when celebrity is like, it's that classic story. He's a certain age, he's getting famous. Like, yeah,
Michael: come on man. So that, that's sort of what's astonishing here is that it is a kind of typical celebrity story of like, oh, you're all hot now and everybody is interested and you leave the first wife for a caretaker and what are you doing?
So here's, here's my [00:31:00] word, word of phrase. I wrote ground control to Major Tom. So what I'm going with here is the David Bowie song, uh, space Oddity Major. Tom is in the Stars and he leaves this spaceship and he's going more and more towards the stars and he's leaving. The ground. Now I'm playing a little bit on the fact that Stephen Hawking spent his mind going towards the stars, but he also goes towards the celebrity stars and that there is a sort of untethering that happens when he becomes famous.
So part of the reason he writes a brief history of time is that there is financial pressure. He's requiring more and more attention. He has this near death experience that we've referenced a few times in 85 where he has pneumonia, there's a tracheotomy. This is when he loses his voice. It's after that that he requires 24 hour wraparound care.
There are nurses in the house all the time, and you
Nick: hear there's also writing about that and talking about that. Just saying it was so hard. We had no privacy.
Archival: Once nurses came into the house. [00:32:00] Life changed. And that was very difficult for all of us, for me, for the children. Home was no longer home.
Michael: Meanwhile, Spielberg's on the phone because Errol Flynn wants to do a movie and Spielberg's gonna produce it, and he is being invited and he sounds like a guy who's enjoying it and who can blame him on one level. And actually to even back up in the seventies, one thing I found interesting was how much his grad students were actually part of the caretaking team.
Well, he actually
Nick: refused to have a professional caretaker for a long time, and that was one of the things that was so stressful for her was because he didn't want to be medicalized. And that put a lot on her.
Michael: And I, I do think that. Overall, it's sort of surprising how banal the celebrity story is here in a way.
'cause you just wouldn't think it a plan. Well, but then, but then
Nick: this is why I said it's complicated, which is that, so they separated in 1990 because he was gonna go off with his nurse who he later married, but she several years before had [00:33:00] started initially platonic. It sounds like she had developed feelings for this person who had also been a caretaker.
Who they knew. They knew John, I think. Yeah, Jonathan. It sounded like, from what I read, that Stephen Hawking kind of was cool with this because he understood. That's what I read too. She had needs and you know, so on. Right. There's an arrangement of sorts. There's an arrangement where she has this other relationship because she has a lot of stress on her and, and then he leaves because.
It's too awkward and like someone wonders whether their third child is his or Steven's, and he's outta the picture. And then Steven takes up with his nurse and goes off, and then Jane goes back to Jonathan because she's like, well, finally, I don't have, you know, I, I've done what I could for Steven, and now I'm gonna go back to this other person who I have these feelings for.
And then, as you said. 2006 or so. Hawking divorces his second wife and kind of comes back to the family. They had been kind of estranged for 15 years and then [00:34:00] there's a reconciliation.
Michael: I think they must have found the right balance, and I don't wanna get too much into projection. His children are noticeably absent from a lot of the documentaries and nobody else.
But Stephen is seeking the limelight here. Also worth noting that Jane was a devout Christian and Stephen Hawking was, they describe him as an atheist actually, when he gets asked questions about God, I hear more agnosticism than atheism, but he's not a devout Christian in anyway. The brief history of time talks about God a lot.
Yes, a lot. It does. Alright, I wanna flip it one time real quick. Disappointing. Isn't it Also kind of great. Maybe it's okay. Here's hear me, hear me. Hear me out on why it's maybe kind of great. It is a typical corruption by celebrity story. Doesn't that tell you something? Not about somebody who has a disabilities, but about celebrity?
I don't know. Like somehow. Somehow I feel like, wow, there's the power of the big bang and, and quantum theory and so forth, but there's also fundamental force of
Nick: the [00:35:00] universe.
Michael: Fundamental force of the universe may be the corrupting power of celebrity. Even Stephen Hawkings not above it. I don't know. It's not great, but it's also kinda like, ha, I'll be damned, you know, of all people to fall
Nick: into that trap.
Here we go. Yeah. I would say also there's a certain profile of scientists, people who are very smart and very driven, and maybe a little bit. Less connected to their emotional impact on other people.
Michael: Yes.
Nick: Yep.
Michael: All right. Category four net worth. In this category, Nick and I will each write down our numbers ahead of time.
We'll then talk a little bit about our reasoning, and then we will look up the net worth number in real time to see who's closest. Finally, we'll place this person on the famous and gravy net worth leaderboard. I have a number, I didn't think too much about this. If you wanna share your, I cannot emphasize
Nick: how little I thought about this.
Michael: Okay. Okay, great. I, I do wanna say the book sold very well and there continued to be media appearances for the rest of his life. Yeah, I [00:36:00] mean, I do think that there comes an inflection point at which he becomes very recognizable, a known figure, and is invited into the entertainment industry.
Nick: On the other hand, he must have had a lot of medical expenses
Michael: all the time.
That's a great point. So Nicholas Weiler wrote down $50 million. My goodness. Okay. Michael Osborne wrote down $15 million. The actual net worth for Stephen Hawking is $20 million. Okay, I'm a little closer. Yeah. 20 million. That's a good number. So it used to be the case that, and this is maybe famous and gravy inflation in the early stages of our show, $10 million was the magic number for me.
It's kind of becoming 20 because the $20 million famous and gravy net worth leaderboard, it is right below the median. So at $20 million, he is at the same dinner table as Get this list. You're gonna love it. Betty Ford, James Garner, curly Neil, the Harlem Trotter, Maurice [00:37:00] Sineck, Gary Sling, Tom Wolf, gene Wilder, Eddie Money, Sidney Poitier, Rodney Dangerfield, and Leslie Nielsen.
I think the goal, Nick, is to die with 20 million. I don't know that I'm gonna get there. I'm just saying like Betty Ford and, and Leslie Nielsen and, and, oh, if you wanna play basketball, not only is Curly Neil here, Gary Sling has a basketball court at his house in Hollywood. You make a contribution to the world, but Right, you're not going overboard.
This is isn't amazing. And then Stephen Hawking is there to explain what this dinner table really represents. This is a beautiful number. All right, well done. Stephen Hawking. $20 million. Let's move on. Category five, little Lebowski, urban achievers.
Archival: They're the little Lebowski. Urban achievers. Yeah. The achievers.
Yes. And proud we are of all of
Michael: them. In this category, Nick and I will each choose a trophy and award a cameo and impersonation or some other form of a hat tip that shows a different side of this person. Nick, what'd you have for Lebos?
Nick: He was on The Simpsons four times and I can't resist [00:38:00] Simpson. He's like a Simpson, a darling of the Simpsons.
Oh yeah. It's kind of crazy. Well, apparently he was a big fan and like wanted to be on the show and it got arranged and then like at the last minute his wheelchair broke down and like his graduate students spent 36 hours trying to fix it and like, is that right? To get him on the plane to LA from Right.
Uh, and he finally showed up and just into the grad
Michael: student, like I signed up to study theoretical phy. What the fuck? You can study the
Nick: theoretical physics of my wheels. Exactly. Yeah. So anyway, I love this scene 'cause the Simpsons episodes encapsulates a lot of the things we've been talking about, like him as an emblem and his sense of humor and his personality and so on.
So my favorite one, the first one in 99 is an episode called They Saved Lisa's Brain or something like that. It's basically Mensa takes over Springfield and Hawking is confronting the Mensa crowd and Principal Skinner at the end and he says,
Archival: I don't know, which is a bigger disappointment. My failure, you're to formulate a unified field theory for you.
I don't like your [00:39:00] tone. If you are looking for trouble, you found it. Yeah. Just try me, you.
Michael: Oh. One of the things I love about The Simpson's appearances is how outfitted his wheelchair is. There's like one where there's like a, a helicopter, there's like boxing gloves coming out. The Simpson's appearances are dynamite and they're, it's kind of perfect too because, you know, so much of what I, I feel like is the experience of Stephen Hawking is exciting.
The imagination. So there is taking us into the cosmos and trying to describe black holes or what happens at the beginning of the universe and how do we visualize this, but putting him in a cartoon where we can take liberties with a wheelchair or whatever is kind of perfect, right? It speaks to an imagination quality.
And you got the sense,
Nick: like he made jokes like that all the time. Like Yeah, it seemed like he thought it was kind of hilarious that he was a computer person. Totally. Or like a hand, right? And I mean,
Michael: can't help but sort of see some level of acceptance. You know? I mean, I don't think he's happy he got the diagnosis ultimately, but I [00:40:00] do think that given the cards he was dealt, how he played them, that's the famous engraving question as well.
Nick: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Michael, what was your little bobowski.
Michael: This was also in the quiz. This is Star Trek, next generation. You and I, I I, you are a next generation fan too, aren't you? Yeah. There's a scene where data has found that playing cards with other members teaches him something about humanity. So he's organized a card game with Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, and Stephen Hawking on the enterprise, and they're playing cards.
And that scene where Stephen Hawking tries to bluff Albert or Albert Einstein calls him,
Archival: the uncertainty principle will not help you now, Stephen. Hmm. All the quantum fluctuations in the universe will not change the cards in your hand. I call you are bluffing and you'll lose. Wrong again, Albert. Okay.
Nick: And that's a deep science joke, right?
Like Albert Einstein never accepted quantum physics and so [00:41:00]
Michael: well, and I, I, I kind of keep invoking this, but he goes to space. I said Space oddity, uh, you know. Being in star, like there is this thing about his imagining of space that also makes space flight, space, travel space, I don't know, experience more real, like it's such a perfect place to put him on the enterprise that way.
Mm-hmm. Because I, I think like if, if you were going to have a disability where your body is not able to express all the things that most of the rest of us can express, that most people can express through writing, through dialogue, through exercise, whatever, what he shows over and over again is that the life of the mind and only of the mind or mostly of the mind can still be a wonderful place.
And so these appearances and invoking space kind of does that for me. So Star Trek, next generation. Okay. Let's take another break. Category six words to live by in this category. Nick and I each choose one quote. These are either words that came outta this person's mouth [00:42:00] or was said about them.
Nick: Uh, what do you have
Michael: here?
Nick: He said, even if there's only one possible unified theory, it's just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breeds fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe the usual approach of science, of constructing a mathematical model? Can't answer the questions of why there should be a universe for the model to describe.
Why does the universe go to all the bother of existing? Why does the
Michael: universe
Nick: go to
Michael: all the bother of existing?
Nick: I think it's be he's, he's living in this mathematical world where he's like, the universe should be simplifi to an equation, but it also exists as a physical experience. And I think that speaks to me as a neuroscientist, which is the thing that's crazy about neuroscience is we can understand all these things that the brains are doing, but what we do not fundamentally at all.
In any way. 0% understand in neuroscience is why it feels like something to be alive. Why? Seeing something feels like something that is this hard problem of neuroscience, and that's [00:43:00] exactly what he is talking about. Hard problem of the cosmos. We can calculate all the equations, but why does the universe exist?
What turns math into reality? Yeah,
Michael: that's good. Okay. This one's a little bit dark. He said, I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image. All right.
That's a little cynical, but, but also kind
Nick: of,
Michael: I I, he got political
Nick: too. Like he was definitely, he refused a knighthood because of the Oh, is that he disagreed with the Apol. Oh, yeah. And he was a big, you know, he was very concerned about AI and the future of ai. I mean, he died before the big recent AI revolution, but this was a big thing he was thinking about towards the later years of his life.
Like what the potential benefits and the potential risks? Yes. Well,
Michael: I think it's a, it's a quote to live by. I'm gonna be thinking more about computer viruses. All right. Uh, category seven man in the Mirror. This category asks a fairly simple question. Did this person like their reflection? Yes or no? This is not about beauty, but [00:44:00] rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment.
This is a little bit sensitive, but I think one thing I was thinking about for people who are preoccupied with their looks, the more you look in the mirror, the more insecure you are. And Stephen Hawking had to sort of surrender his physical appearance at a very early age and make peace with it. And I think he does, as is evidenced by the humor, the embracing of celebrity life that I, I think he is having fun.
And anybody who's preoccupied with what the mirror shows you is a no in my mind. And so I ended up. Saying Yes. The other thing is that I do think the stubbornness, the kind of academic personality, there is a kind of, well, I'm brilliant story that he surely is telling himself. I would've thought if he's invited onto the enterprise with Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein, that's the kind of thing that can go to your head.[00:45:00]
I ended up going, yes, but how did, how did you think about this one?
Nick: You make a great point. My initial take was that it must have been always so hard to remember who he was. To remember being able bodied, see everyone else, remember all, like see what everyone else is able to do. Yeah. And just not be able to do that.
Not be able to even control his posture, his facial expression. It's just hard for me to imagine that you ever look in the mirror and go like. I'm great. On the other hand, I think your point that like he's truly embraced it and he made it iconic. He made what he saw in the mirror, something that everyone in the world can recognize and instantly think of smartest man in the world or one of the smartest people on the planet.
That's pretty impressive. So I, I hear your point. I think it's a good one.
Michael: Okay, so this, this category is meant to sort of average out over the course of a lifetime. We'd be idiots not to consider. The case you are making right there. There must have been moments of envy, frustration, jealousy of self-pity of [00:46:00] why is this my fate?
How? How could there not be? I guess I just see more evidence for self-affirming behavior and validation and meaning and purpose. I mean, it goes back to my thing number two, really, that whenever anybody finds their purpose, I am inspired, not because I think that there is a creator necessarily who gives us purpose, but with anybody who tricks themselves into thinking that they found their purpose.
And it is largely selfless that it's meant to be a contribution to the stream of life. It that is very evident to me here, and that is, I think the only way to really on balance consider this question.
Nick: You don't see a lot of self-doubt from Stephen Hawking, right? I don't know that I saw really any.
Moments except for that period right after his diagnosis. But he makes all these bets. He calls things his most famous blunder. But like it's always with this forward momentum. I mean, the thing that people knock him for is not like [00:47:00] doubt, but like maybe overconfidence. Right? Yeah.
Michael: I, I mean, I do think, to go back to one love though, in your, you know, disappointment, which I think is very, it's disappointing and it's complicated.
I do wonder if there's regret there. I mean, I think it is probably all but impossible to appreciate the burden that you are placing on loved ones when you're. Physical health requires so much care. Yeah. Right. And you can wonder here if he regretted his ability to love Jane back, to love the kids back, the fact that there is a kind of, at least partial reconciliation or normalization towards the end of his life, hints at both things.
To me, it, it suggests to me that there was maybe like, okay, wait a second. I need, I wanna participate in this family and we have children together. But also maybe I could have done things differently. Hard to know what though, given the cards he was dealt. So, yeah, I mean it's, it's a tricky one, but I'm going, yes.
I think he liked his reflection. Okay. Next category. [00:48:00] Cocktail coffee or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity. This one is so easy.
Nick: Oh, really? Okay. What'd you doing to me? It's super easy. Yeah. What'd you do? I mean, to me it has to be cannabis are black holes, portals to alternate universes.
Do particles and antiparticles annihilate because the antiparticle is the same particle traveling backwards in time. This, you've just given me such to get high.
Michael: Yeah. Yes. Okay. That's right. This, this does make me want to get high. So that's all this is is like college dorm room. Let's pass a joint. Oh yeah, for sure.
Stephen Hawking. Lay it on me. Okay.
Nick: Tell me about time travel.
Michael: Uh, okay. That, that's actually a very, very compelling case. Paint the scene here, Nick. Where, where are you picturing, you know, oh, getting high with Steve. Oh, great. Good question.
Nick: Where am I getting high with Stephen Hawking. I mean, I think, like you said, college dorm room and so like, you know, lots of like plush comfy cushions.
Actually, no. You know what, what am I, what am I saying? Obviously under the stars.
Michael: Yeah. [00:49:00] Okay. Right. That's the way that is the, that is the way, I mean this is, I, there's very little, I relate to 'em in terms of scientific experience, but one thing I always felt like the geologists have in common with the physicists is toggling of scales.
Theoretical physicists are dealing with quantum mechanics, things at this very, very invisible level of 10 to the millionth, you know, itty bitty and the scale of the universe, and that you're going all the way out to the level of stars, galaxies, and so forth. Geologists do the same thing with time. Now we have to consider things in the micro moments and the how things unfold on seconds and minutes, but we also have to stretch our imaginations out to imagine hundreds of thousands of years and millions of years, because time is its own force in the universe.
Right. And. It's the one place where I feel some commonality. So I, I, I also, I'll make the argument, I'll make
Nick: the argument that neuroscientists have this in a different way. Okay. Which is, sorry I have to No, please. Yeah, yeah. [00:50:00] Defend your science, sir. Yeah. Which is that we have to think about things from the level of the chemistry of neurotransmitters and the molecules that sense them.
Like how is the actual sensitivity working? And the electrical pulses that pass through ions actually moving through membranes all the way up to hundreds of billions of. Neurons and trillions of synapses, and how do you think about the molecular level all the way to this meta level and that it affects our behavior and our social interactions as a society.
So there's this, it also has this scale, this to it, but maybe that's just a factor of like sciences that are complicated.
Michael: Well, yes, an emergent phenomenon emerge. Yes, exactly right. I mean, this is, this all speaks to emergent. When you look at something really, really small, you see one thing, and when you step back and look at the really, really big, you see something totally different.
Can you reconcile those things? Um, okay, you win. All right. My answer maybe is, we've talked about it a little bit. He's asked [00:51:00] about God often, and I'm sort of making the case that he's obviously not religious, but I do think that he's leans more agnosticism than atheism. I don't want to talk to him about the existence of God or any kind of nature of God because I, I, not in any kind of like classical framing of that question, but I do want to talk about.
This idea of finding purpose, because that's where I see God as we choose to interpret that word broadly. Not in any kind of omnipotent being, but more, I wanna talk to him about what it felt like to find his purpose and how he sustains it. That's the thing that's sort of most important to get at. I want coffee.
What I really want is to hang out in Cambridge over a cup of tea, but I'll take coffee. It's in the morning. Um, you know, just do it in a tea mug. And let's, let's talk about, you know, do you sometimes feel like you lose it? How do you come back to it? What is the process of rediscovering the inspiration?
Some of it I do think is [00:52:00] driven by a, a kind of creativity emerging from constraint in, in his communication abilities. But even more than that, I think he sees it as a kind of hidden blessing that he's given time. To think, and he's given a different set of tools to think than most of us have, and that he finds something within that.
And I wonder if he sees it that way, and I don't wanna talk about that over a cup of coffee. Yeah. All right. We have arrived, the final category, the Vander beak, named after James Vander beak, who famously said in varsity blues, I don't want your life. In that varsity blues scene, James VanDerBeek makes a decision that he does not want a certain kind of life based on just a few characteristics.
So here Nick and I will form a rebuttal to anyone skeptical of how Stephen Hawking lived. Let's talk about the counter arguments. One is obvious. While I am impressed, amazed, full of admiration for somebody who finds all this meaning and [00:53:00] purpose with a neurodegenerative disease, that does not mean I'm not afraid of this.
I'm not afraid of that fate, and I, I think we'd be idiots. To act like we're not. Right. You know? Right. I mean, you
Nick: just have to think. He went through such a hard time. Yes. So many medical problems. So much like just, and the gradual loss. Particularly when you've, you know, you've got young kids, like, just, we're both dads.
Like Yeah. Imagining like losing the ability to communicate with your kids and like hold them and all, I mean, it would just be so difficult.
Michael: Yeah. And always kind of hovering there, right? That, you know, getting pneumonia or one day you can move your hand and the next day it's not quite working as well. Is that a permanent thing?
I mean the, the experience of fear and the risk of future tripping and thinking, how much worse is this gonna get and can I handle it? That had to loom. There's just no way. Yeah. And then I think there is some struggling with interpersonal relationships. Just the ability to talk, the ability to touch, the ability to express love is inhibited.
And the [00:54:00] question I have, I guess, is like if your ability to express love in the ways that people are used to experiencing it, does that also inhibit your ability to feel love the way that people are wanting to express it? I don't know, but I I, yeah. You're disconnected in
Nick: a way. Yeah. You talked about not feeling disconnected, but it's hard to imagine that he didn't feel disconnected from people.
Michael: Yeah. And I do think that relationships are often built on reciprocity and so. You know, how are you able to participate in that experience of reciprocity? So this is, I guess, a subset of the first point. But I do think that you look at some of the friendships, some of the his grad students and his wife and children, I think that there is a lot of love there.
And I don't mean to say otherwise, but I do wonder if that's not part of what James VanDerBeek is saying when he says, I don't want your life. Okay. So let's talk about the reasons why you would want this. I mean, and where would you start with this?
Nick: I mean, I think when you get to the this, I mean, it reminds me a little bit of our conversation about Oliver Sacks, the [00:55:00] other episode that we recorded together, because you have to look at the whole arc of the life.
You have to look at like what he went through, what he suffered, but also what he accomplished. Like he figured out how black holes eventually disappear. He figured out something fundamental that. Gave us all scientists, but also all of us, a little window into this fundamental question that still plagues us about the nature of the universe.
Like how do you reconcile Newton with Einstein? Like how does the universe work? He made a big contribution to that. He.
Michael: Well, and I think this is your point number one about cosmic marketer too. He also reminded the world that really smart people are out there thinking about this. Yeah. And trying to understand the secrets of the universe.
And when we've done that in the past, it has led to revolutions. It is what gave us the power of the atom. Mm-hmm. Right. That that, would you say
Nick: he's the second most recognizable scientist after Einstein? That's interesting. Certainly second most recognizable
Michael: physicist. Um, yeah, can't [00:56:00] think of anyone else.
I can't think of anybody else who compares, but I mean, these are sort of two different things. There's the actual contribution to science, but there's also the reminder to everybody outside of science. I. Like that this is happening and that there is a higher purpose and a higher goal, and here's a glimpse, at least at what that looks like.
Archival: Having lived on this wonderful planet for over 71 years, I feel my proudest achievement has been to inspire people to think about the cosmos and our place in it. Since I believe there is no afterlife, I think it's important to realize we only have a very short time alive and should make the best of it Today.
I enjoy time together with family and friends, and despite my disabilities, I will always keep wondering about the mysteries of the universe.
Nick: That must be all the sweeter because of [00:57:00] the challenge that it, the challenges that you face to
Michael: get there. Hundred percent. That's thing number three, right? That you like.
I,
Nick: I beat you. Right. I did not let this stop me.
Michael: Yeah, I mean, I think what's inside of that for me is the power of the imagination because I, I do think that that was the muscle he's flexing while all other muscles are failing the muscle of the brain and the mind is, is working double over time it to, to prove something.
And I do think you're right. I think that there's perhaps a real competitive, I beat you kind of attitude. You know? Hell yeah. I want that. Not necessarily as a kind of like I want a win point, but certainly as I want
Nick: to make my mark, I think there's this deeper philosophical point, right? Like if you had to pick between an easy life where.
Maybe you don't add much and a really, really challenging life where you have a very clear demonstration that you made an important difference. That's not an easy question. That's a hard question, but making a contribution despite [00:58:00] challenges is like, that's a good life.
Michael: I'm gonna add one more. I think that he really worked hard to show us it could be fun.
Mm-hmm. I don't think that it's a bed of roses everywhere, but I do think that we see a sense of humor. We see thrill seeking behaviors. I think we see a celebrity, you know that, that, I mean, despite everything I'm gonna try and have. Fun. Yeah. You know, and like absolutely there are lots of biographies and eulogizing and he is an emblem and, and so forth around Stephen Hawking, but I'm not sure anybody has ever quite come to the conclusion, this guy is really working to have a good time.
You know? Mm-hmm. And, and, and is giving us a lot of evidence that he had a good time. And if that's not a lesson, I don't know what is. So with that, James VanDerBeek, I'm Stephen Hawking and you want My life?
Before we leave this episode, if you enjoyed it and you're enjoying our show. And if you've got your phone in your hand, please take a moment to share this episode [00:59:00] with a friend. We need your help to grow our podcast, one listener at a time. All right. Nicholas Plugs for past shows speed round. If listeners enjoyed this episode of Stephen Hawking, what's a episode from the famous Eng Gravy archives that they should check out?
Nick: Fred Rogers is just a beautiful episode. Thanks, man. Uh, that is a great life.
Michael: Yeah. And meaning where we didn't necessarily even see it the first time. Right.
Nick: Beautiful on the surface and beautiful underneath.
Michael: That's one of my favorite ones to tell people to start with. So thank you for calling it out.
Episode 100, divine Neighbor Fred Rogers. I'm gonna go episode 17. Modest Moonwalker, Neil Armstrong. I think we've been talking about space and the space geeks. I'd like that is a life though, where there's a lot more going on than what I ever knew about. So if you enjoyed this, then uh, check out episode 17.
Modest Moonwalker Neil Armstrong. Here is a little preview for the next episode of Famous and Gravy. She was known for keeping her cool under stress. She politely endured a barrage of questions focused [01:00:00] on her sex. Oh man. Um, I think it must be an Athlete, famous and gravy. Listeners, we love hearing from you.
If you wanna reach out with a comment question or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousenggravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels. Famous Eng Gravy is created by Amit Kippur and me, Michael Osborne. Thanks so much to Dr.
Nick Weiler for guest hosting. This episode was produced by Evan Scherer with assistance from Jacob Weiss. Original music by Kevin Strang. Thanks. See you next time.